ItstillaV6

Hi, I'm new to this thread and website. I recently picked up a 1992 Camaro, with a 3.1L V6, for $900. Tommorow I am replacing the distributor, as apparently the factory ones have a tendency to crack the reluctor coil. I have removed the A/C Comressor and Condensor. Installed a cone style air cleaner, and a 2" core Radiator.

My current problem is the engines useful powerband. Peak torue and Peak HP are close to each other, and well below my WOT shift point with the automatic transmission. My shift point is 5600 RPM. The engine is mostly stock and peak power and torque are at the factory spec RPMs.


Here is what I want to do with the car. I want to change the powerband for peak torque and HP futher in the high RPM range, but not above 5500 RPM. I wish to make the engine operate more efficiently, by installing roller rockers, an higher flowing exhaust, and higher performance ignition system. I'm not looking to break more than 200 HP, and no more than 210 Lbs-Ft of torque.


You guys have alot of knowledge, and I would appreciate any information and parts, and where I can order them, to help me meet my goal.

I do not wish to have people tell me to do a 3.4L swap or any other swap as well. I'm well aware of getting more bang for the buck with bigger engines. I just want to make my engine to be a highly efficient powerplant. Currently I am averaging well over 400 miles on a full tank of gas, and that is with a bad distributor. I also would like to have the engine operate more efficiently at peak RPM, during WOT. Right now it doesn't operate well at WOT, and I'm turning high 17's in the qtr mile.

I appreciate any help you guys can give.

I have found a new problem as well, after I have had the distributor replaced. My car still has a rough idle and misfire. I think it is fuel system related and have noticed ALOT of fuel vapor when unscrewing my gas tank filler cap. I can listen to the hissing for a solid 10 secs or more. Any ideas why the fuel system would get like that. I have dealt with alot of minor problems on cars, but never anything like this. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated as well.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

There's a few problems here.
1. Either you or your trans is shifting WAY too high at WOT. My failing trans shifted just before 4K at WOT in any gear. The powerband on the stock heads falls off a cliff just after about 4200, IIRC. The stock cast iron heads are VERY restrictive, which is why anyone on here wanting to make decent power wants to chuck them out first.
2. It's a first-generation 60* V6. What could you possibly ask for with our ancient head and intake designs, that were designed for efficiency during the gas crunch and not power? Even with performance parts and newer cylinder heads from a 94+ car, the torque and power both peak out really close to each other.
3. You can redo the complete exhaust and put a freer-flowing air intake on the engine. Delete the AIR pump if possible and the air conditioning if equipped. However, if you get about 200HP, you're going to be above 210 torque.
4. Your car is right where it's supposed to be on the quarter mile. 17s are stock for our V6 cars.

Do you want more power or better efficiency? You can't really do both. If you want power, you're going to lose efficiency, for the most part, and vice versa. For power, change the air intake, exhaust, and camshaft. For efficiency, fix the car the way it is, except maybe put some freer flowing in and out pipes on it. You could also have a chip burned for either or.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

ItstillaV6

Ok, from what you told me, I am going to conclude the goal of changing my power range to higher RPM range, will require an extensive amount of time to change the heads and/or cam. I am going to scratch that goal. I'm going to stick with my goal of trying to free up extra power, by improving efficiency of removing pulleys and accessories. The A/C has been removed already. I have an underdrive pulley on the alternator. I plan to remove the catylist as well.

As far as the AIR pump ad PROM chip, how can I go about removing the pump and changing my PROM chip?

Do I need to change any other engine sensors as well?

Any suggestions as to my rough idle problem, and excessive fuel vapors in my gas tank? The car like to stall when it is warm. It idles fine when the engine is cold, and it is running at fast idle, which is around 1250 RPM.

Not sure about my trannys shift points. The transmission is in excellent condition, and only has 108,000 miles on it. I have researched the 700-R4's, for a swap on my other car. The TV cable controls the trans shift points and quality. They are not adjustable, and adjusting the cable can reduce the life of the tranny. It's an automatic, so I don't think I can control when it shifts at WOT.

The reason I think my times are a lil slow for this car, my best time was a 17.846 @ 72.01 MPH.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

For one, the TV cable balances the shift valves against the governor pressure. It is adjustable, just to make sure that the trans knows where the throttle plate is. If the governor sticks, then your shift points will be affected. Same for the TV valve. The TV valve is also known as the throttle boost valve.

AIR pump can be deleted any time you want to. The ECM doesn't care if you have it or not and won't code. It's not a 95+ car that has OBD 1.5 or II.

If you're going for an all-out race car, the catalytic converter can go. If not, you'll fail emissions inspection, even if Ohio finally decided to get rid of their sniffer test. You have to have at least the cat shell to pass visual.

1200 RPM is normal when cold. Not when hot.

There will be a little white bell thing seen in the driver's side rear wheel well. This is a fuel tank vent valve. It's possible that it doesn't work any more. They're cheap, but you have to do some poking around when trying to replace it. The valve is supposed to open above a certain tank pressure to let excess pressure escape and also opens at a certain amount of vacuum to let pressure into the tank to keep fuel flowing. It's possible that it's stuck. Have you tried running the engine with the gas cap off? Does it run better when hot with the cap off?

ItstillaV6

OK, so the AIR pump can go and I just reroute my serpentine belt. I'll look into that. I haven't checked my wheelwell in the drivers side yet. I'll look into the soon. I also found my vacuum lines for my evap canister under the hood, were hooked up backwards. I hooked them up properly, and I replaced the IAC valve as well. I just drove the car, and the idle is a little better, and stalling is lessened. When my engine is warm, it idles around 750-800 RPM.

I tried taking the gas cap off, with the engine warm. It will correct the problem for a few minutes of driving and then it starts stalling again. I replaced my gas cap, with one that has a little bleeder valve in it. The one the was on the car, didn't have one at all.

Where I live in Ohio, we don't have to have inspections done at all, so my cat can go. What I am asking, is which will give me a better jump in power? Removing the cat, or installing a performance muffler?


I appreciate your help on the fuel vapors. Hopefully I can get this fixed soon.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Removing the cat will just make the car sound obnoxious. Installing a performance muffler AND removing the cat, will make it very obnoxious. It'll be bad enough that unless you're 14 you probably won't want to be seen driving it.

Unfortunately, 2.8 and 3.1L V6 thirdgens are performance challenged. They do a few things well. They're fairly reliable, and they get decent gas mileage when driven sensibly. You can spend a ton of money and not go much faster. If you want to burn money doing little things that keep you entertained but don't really make a measurable difference, then go ahead, but don't expect much from ignition upgrades, and tune up parts, or 'Free mods'. Even the easy bolt ons will make little difference.

If you really want to improve the performance, make big changes. My 3.1 responded great to nitrous. I'd suspect a turbo would have similar results, but it's not something you can order out of a catalog and bolt on for a weeks wages.

ItstillaV6

Around how much time/money would I be looking at with a cheater nitrous system? Idk something that would maybe give 20-30 extra HP.

As far as my exhaust system, I do know that removing my cat can improve my economy, as a high flowing muffler can. It improves flow, and will free up wasted engine power. Which one will give the higher increase in flow?

Any recommendations on which brand of ignition coil to install? Summit carries a ton them. I would prefer to purchase one, that is very dependable and will last a long time.

ItstillaV6

Ok, found the fuel tank vent valve. It is caked full of underbody spray and engine oil. I'll take a guess, that it isn't functioning properly. Autozone sells the replacements for 28.99. I tried to call a few places and none of them can get the purge canister solenoid. I read on another board that those can go bad, and how you can test them.

On another note, I just took a vacation to Cameron, NC. I couldn't believe my fuel economy on the highway. I checked my mileage, upon refilling. I avg 30.58 MPG highway. I didn't think that was too bad for a V-6, with minor things wrong.

micktroup2

Can you tell us where you found the information about the purge valve?

ItstillaV6

It was on a post on this website. Can't remember which one. The user posted that if you pull the solenoid and blow through it and hear air coming out the other hole, then it is bad, and will cause a vacuum leak.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Not quite... If you pull the canister (most models don't have a removable solenoid on our cars) and blow through the solenoid with the power disconnected, it WILL allow air through. If you turn the ignition on and do the same again, the solenoid should close off the air flow. If not, it's bad, or there is a problem in the ECM control circuit. This is pretty much the same deal for the older EGR valve solenoids as well, except they will allow air no matter what, either through a filter on the back of the solenoid, or through the EGR valve port. (This does not apply to the 90-92 digital EGR valve, obviously, because those are electrically either open or closed)

:edit: You cannot replace the canister solenoid alone. It's part of the canister on the later cars, and on the older ones like mine, it's removable, but there is no part number for it as it is designed to be replaced WITH the canister every so often (a tuneup part). If you need a replacement canister, I'd recommend getting one from a pre-90 car, as they don't have an AIR connection, and the canister requires an AIR connection or some very strong vacuum gets in there and could cause a problem (I have one in my garage I can't use because of this).

ItstillaV6

Ok, my solenoid is removable, don't ask me how. I can get it off the top of the can, by simply using a screwdriver, and stretch the plastic of the canister to pop it out.


Here is a good question. Can I install roller rockers, from a newer FWD 3.1L or 3.4L? Do I need to do a cam swap to make that happen, or will they just bolt right onto the head, and need the lash adjusted?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The solenoid may be removable, but there still is no part number for it (for the reason I listed above). If you're dead-set on replacing it, grab one from an early 90s W-body, with the remote canister behind the pass side rear wheel (will be mounted to the back of the plenum on the 3.1 FWD). DON'T get the EGR solenoid from a 4-banger, as it will cause a vacuum leak. You'll need the wiring attached to the solenoid as well.

What I would, and currently (when the car is in one piece) do is to bypass the solenoid altogether and run the canister in a manner that was used back in the 70s. I run the canister's purge valve (the round thing with the large and small nipples for hoses on the top of the can) straight to the throttle body, connecting the small port to the ported vacuum port on the TB. Then, I just run the purge outlet line directly to the plenum, no purge valve in the middle.

For the FWD rockers, you would need to replace the rocker studs so you can run poly lock nuts (which don't come in the thread size the rocker studs use). The existing rocker nuts won't work. I've tried. They will bind long before the lash is set. Better off just getting a set of Crane rockers or equivalent that come with all the necessary parts.

ItstillaV6

My purge solenoid isn't bad. I just checked it. Thank you for telling me how to test it.

Upon futher investigation, I may have to replace my passenger side exhaust manifold, and redo both side gaskets. I found my left cylinder head missing a manifold stud altogether, and there is a stud broken on my right side.

ItstillaV6

I have figured out how to reroute my serpentine belt, to eliminate the AIR pump entirely. From the Crank, over the Alternator, under the tensioner, over the P/S Pump, over the water pump, and back under the Crank.

Here is my problem, what length of belt. I tried to measure with a tape, and an 86.5" belt is just a hair to long.

If anyone has done this, without moving the other accessories, do you happen to have an exact belt length that you could post? Also what kinda car the belt is off of, in case i ever have to order it?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

You need to change a bolt position on the power steering pump and remove the rear bracket.

ItstillaV6

Does this raise or lower the relative position of the PS Pump, to the water pump? Reason being, I have found that the newer FWD PS Pump pulleys, will press on to my pump, and are smaller diameter. Problem with the current position of the pump, is a smaller pulley will cause the belt to rub the part traveling over the top of the water pump pulley.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Look at the top part of the PS bracket that bolts to the cylinder head. There are 3 holes there. One is threaded, and that is where the A/C compressor's lower bolt mounts. The 2 below it are the ones you're interested in. Right now, the bracket to head bolt is in the left hole. Remove the pump from the engine by unbolting both brackets, take the nuts and the bolt out of the rear bracket and remove it completely, and reinstall the pump. When you align the bracket with the cylinder head (put the small bolt in the water pump to use as a pivot and help things align), use the RIGHT hole instead of the left. This is how GM mounted the non-A/C system (pulled the front end harness from a 91 without A/C and this is how it was set up).

BTW, the belt doesn't come too close to the water pump pulley in the current configuration... I've been stuck for a couple months now with having to have my empty A/C compressor bracket holding the upper part of the PS bracket because the bolt snapped in the cylinder head one day . Getting the belt on and off is a real pain with having to crank the tensioner all the way open, but at least the belt doesn't squeal anymore.

:edit: Oh, and BTW, if you want to keep power steering, only remove the nuts that hold the rear bracket on the PS pump. DO NOT remove the studs from the pump, as these also hold the reservoir to the pump and if even slightly loosened, WILL cause a PS fluid leak.

ItstillaV6

Maverick, you are a Godsend. Thank you so much. I was able to realign the P/S Pump exactly as you told me to. It raises the P/S pulley above the level of the Water pump pulley. I was also able to press on the 3.1L FWD pulley off of an L82 engine. This did require some "customization". The L82 Pulley is 1/8" diameter smaller than the stock pulley. It makes the pump bolts harder to get to as well. The bolts do not line up with the holes at all.

To make this set-up work, you will need 3 1/8" steel washers, for the pump bolts. The washers will be placed between the pump, and the bolt holes of the bracket. If you do not install all 3, you will snap the aluminum bracket. I tried it with only 2 bolts and it lasted 4 days vefore breaking.

First remove your A/C. The A/C must be removed, so you can realign the pump as Maverick post states. At this point follow all of Maverick's instructions for realignment. Once you have accomplished that, grab your P/S pulley kit and remove your stock pump. Next unbolt the pump, from the bracket. I had limited resources, and wound up cutting a 4.3L VORTECH alternator bracket to make my washers. Make sure you align the pulley properly on the pump shaft, before you use the pulley installer on it. Once everything is lined up, install the pulley. WARNING!!!!!!!! Always make sure the belt lines up properly. You may need to take a 19mm socket and hammer and press the pulley on further to get the belt lined up. If it is out of alignment, the P/S pump will make a nasty squealing noise, and you'll probably throw the belt as soon as you put it in drive. I also recommend getting the rear steel brackets from a 93-95 Camaro/Firebird 3.4L engine. You will be minus the nut to the cylinder head bolt, and with the spacers you will need to grind the holes in the pump bracket to match the block bracket. I had to torch mine and kinda guess. Make sure the bottom bolt in the block bracket is good and tight. This will help reduce the strain on the cast aluminum bracket, from running the smaller pulley. I'm going to try this and see how it works out for me.


That is all there is to it. It took me a little over two hour for me to "fabricate" what I needed to make this work. Underdriving crank driven accessories not only help free up wasted HP/Torque, it can also improve Fuel Economy.

ItstillaV6

Since I am going to have to tear into my ehxaust system to fix it, which will require removal of the AIR pump and EGR, is it possible to find an ECM chip that will utilize my stock cam and heads that is programmed for no emissions devices?

I'm coming to the conclusion that I really don't need any pollution controls on the engine, but with the stock PROM chip, it will code the ECM all day long. I want to remove it, but witout removing engine performance as well.

I thought I needed gaskets, upon tearing a core engine apart, I now see they are gasketless manifolds. Any suggestions on this? I have broken studs and will need to repair the exhaust system at some point. Do they make gaskets? Should I be using gaskets?

ItstillaV6

Ok, I tore into the rear of the car, as mentioned earlier. There is a little white valve on a line to my fuel pump. I did not find a valve in my left rear wheel well. Just the filler neck to the tank, and yes I ran my hands into blind areas around my tank and body as well.

The valve on my car, is under the hood. There is a black plastic valve, with one line from the tank. That is a vapor line. the other side of this valve has to nipples and two line, then they route into a splicer and one single line goes into my canister.

I called a GM dealership, and the service manager said that valve is most likely my vent valve, and it is discontinued from GM. NAPA can get that valve for $35.

So two questions, is that for sure my ventilation valve for the fuel tank? Two, what is the valve that comes off of my fuel pump for then?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The easy answer is that they BOTH are vent valves. The one by the charcoal canister in the engine bay is the fuel VAPOR vent valve, and the white one by the rear axle is the fuel TANK PRESSURE vent valve.

ItstillaV6

Ok that helps out with my confusion alot, Thanks again. I'll have to call the dealership again and NAPA. Now that I have the name of both, I should be able to get this problem corrected.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Oh, and to reply to your exhaust manifold question, yes, they do make gaskets, and yes, it's probably a good idea to install them. However, instead of using bolts to put the manifolds back on, it's probably a good idea to install studs (like in the later models) instead.

TomP

Actually, I wouldn't use the gaskets with the stock cast iron manifolds; that's not how the 3rd gen engines were designed. I have almost 300,000 miles on my '86 and it's never had a gasket (or a leak) between the exhaust manifolds and block.

ItstillaV6

Well, with just some repairs and the pulley modifications, I can now estimate my car has just under 160 HP.

This is proven by a little street race, in which I had 50 lbs of catfood and litter plus my 160 lbs roomate riding with me, when low and behold, A guy in a 97-03 bodystyle Grand Prix decided to race me. He had no passengers in his car. It was an SE, with the 3100 SFI V6, rated for 160 HP@ 5200 RPM, and 185 lbs-ft of torque @ 4200 RPM. They have an automatic overdrive 4-speed 4T65E transmission, from the factory. When I punched it at 55 mph, and kicked my RPM up to about 4500 in 2nd gear, he floored it. We stayed dead even, despite the fact that my engine was already past its useful RPM Range. His car should have been close or into the RPMs between his peak torque and peak HP. Theoretically, he should have smoked my happy ***. Had traffic not been in front of me @ 80 MPH, and I had gotten into 3rd gear, it would been over for him.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Definitely have to call on this one. The GP is a MUCH heavier car. And, depending on the year, it was rated 150 HP with the 3100 (didn't get those extra 10 ponies until 2000 when the large port top end appeared on the 3100). Simple repairs and a couple pullies DO NOT get you an extra 20 HP...

ItstillaV6

It is a guess. Without pulling the engine and dyno testing it, I'll never know what my power is exactly. As far as the Grand Prix being heavier, yes by maybe 200 lbs. I get to weight the cars, when I scrap them out to the crusher. They are less aerodynamic as well. These could be a couple factors. My groceries and passenger, evened out the wieght difference.

As stated on previous posts, I have removed the A/C. The L82 pulley, is quite smaller than the stock pulley. It is also carbonfiber, as opposed to steel. This makes it a lighter rotating assembly. That means it will spin with less force driving it, and stop quicker when negative force is applied to it. The airbox has been removed as well, and I installed a cone style air cleaner. I used an rubber throttlebody tube, from the LG8 FWD V-6 engine to the air cleaner. This places the air cleaner directly in the center of the core support space alotted for V-8 applications, between the engine and radiator. There is plenty of airflow through there. It sits right at the hood line, so the air flowing under the gap, also has high velocity. The stock air box, has 90 degree turns in it, causing the air to become turbulent, which is designed for better economy and atomization. It also restricts air volume, and reduces velocity.

As far as pulleys, they waste a ton of power off you engine. Pull any of your accessories and free spin them by hand. You'll find that the power steering pump and AIR pump are the most resistent to turn. The alternator will be pretty easy, until you put a load on it. Just watch your engines behavior, while trying to jumpstart another car.

I even read a very intresting article in CarCraft, where they tested how much power was wasted by using a solid hub fan vs a clutch fan or an electric fan. On their test engine, which I believe was a 350 Chevy V-8, the solid hub fan robbed the engine of 35 HP, and over 40 lbs.-ft. of torque. The clutch fan only robbed 19 HP, and a lil over 20 lbs.-ft. of torque. The electric fan used up 1 HP, as the load increased on the alternator. I am citing this, as an example of how much power is truly wasted, by just one of the accessories on an engine. The power losses are going to be proportional to each individual engine. Example, the 140 HP V-6 in my car, asn't going to gain 35 HP, by simply changing a pulley on it. It might gain that much on a Pontiac 428 bigblock, but that is a much larger and more powerful engine. It would also suck in more air, mix more fuel, and burn more of the fuel comsumed. Hence where it makes more power.

Also, most street engine, from the factory, only make about 17-19% of their true potential in power. An internal combustion engine is highly inefficient, and tends to waste alot of power through heat production.

On a final note, to clarify things on the FWD engines. I pull them quite regularly, thanks to the fine quality Mexican assemlby plant they come from, with their fine quality plastic intake gaskets that crack.

The OPT "L82" is featured in all GM W-Bodies from 1994-1999. They are rated at 160 HP @ 5200 RPM, and 185 lbs-ft @ 4000. This corrects my previous statement of 4200 RPMs, in my previous post.

The 2000-2003 3.1L engine you mentioned, OPT "LG8", featured the redesigned intake that you mentioned. Yes power output was increased to 175 HP, and 195 lbs.-ft. of torque. at the same RPMs respectively. Another change to these engines, from the L82, featured roller rockers in the cylinder heads.

The lower power 3.1L engine, with the SFI. Is the Grand Am, Beretta, Corsica, Achieva, and Skylark, opt "L82" engine. These engines had a different front timing cover, and additional pulleys. Power was reduced to 155 HP, for the 96-98 model years of these cars.

Turst me, you can't even interchange the serpentine belt, from a 96 Grand Am, to a 96 Grand Prix. The engine might be the same block, heads, and internals, but some of the pulleys and accessories are different. This will cause an engine to perform differently.

So with this information, the guy had to have a 97-99 Grand Prix. Even with the heavier car, and less aerodynamics, he should have easily passed me for one reason: His engine was in it's useful powerband RPM and mine was past it making less than my peak torque or HP.

project89

iTrader: (1)

the best thing u could do mod wise and notice a big deifference would be to install gears
3:73 or 4:10's work really good with the automatic v6 cars

if u really want to get into it mild cam/gears make a great combo, specially if u have an ex system and headers

ItstillaV6

Well when I tear into the engine's exhaust system, I plan to hopefully find a decent turbo muffler. It should probably flow around 200-250 CFM. My 283, for my Malibu, will only flow optimally with 400 CFM. That engine will have around 270 HP. The catylitc converter and AIR pump are going to dissapear as well, since the county in my state doesn't require E-Checks.

Even with a chip and high volt coil, I expect this engine to just barely crest the 165 mark, maybe 170 if I'm lucky. Should put my peak torque just around 200.

The changes to my engine are chosen to improve efficiency. Basically, I'm trying to free up as much wasted HP, as I can. You can only go so far, before your performance gains start to eat more fuel.

So the 4.10's or 3.73's, are not the trade off I am looking for. Yes they will improve my 1/4 mile times, by getting the engine ooff the line quicker, but in top end the engine will not hold it's useful RPM range as long. So for highway driving and high speed races, the car will suffer some.

ItstillaV6

I succeeded in removing the AIR Pump. I'll explain in detail how to do it.


1. First, remove you will need to purchase an 81 1/8" serpentine belt. You may have to get an 81 1/4" belt, since I have smaller pulleys on the alternator and P/S Pump.

2. Remove your serpentine belt and unbolt your belt tensioner.

3. You will then need to disconnect the rubber line that goes from the smog pump to the tube in the right exhaust manifold. Plug off the metal line and check valve going into the manifold.

4. Next unbolt the nuts that hold the upper steel bracket to the AIR pump, and remove it.

5. unbol the two bolts that go into the block, next to the timing cover. The pump should be able to be slid forward, off of the studs in the upper bracket holding the alternator.

6. Don't rip the pump out just yet. You will need to disconnect one plug from the back of it.

7. Replace your nuts on the alternator backet, and replace the belt tensioner, and reroute the serpentine belt.

To reoute the belt, do as follows: From the alternator, go under the belt tensioner, across to the P/S pump, go around the pump with the belt coming from under the pulley overtop the water pump, go around the water pump so the belt comes off the bottom of it onto the harmonic balancer, then straightup to the alternator.

You can safely do this without coding the ECM. You will gain power and a signifigant amount of fuel economy. I have been driving for a couple weeks now, the engine runs a little rough when it is on a cold start. It doesn't run hot on the highway, and I am now averaging well over 25 MPG combined city/highway. My current fillup I have driven just over 340 miles, and my gas guage is one needle width under 1/4 tank.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Psst... Drive-Rite 815K6, 81.5" long, for those who don't have underdrive pullies and are reading this... As is recommended at the parts stores for non-A/C non-AIR applications...

As according to the GM belt routing sticker on the radiator support on 90% of our cars out there... And pretty much the stock routing without the A/C compressor and the AIR pump...

Bet it wasn't easy to get that belt on without modifying the position of the PS pump as GM did... (Been there, ain't doing that any more).

Project 3.4 Camaro

Couple things to input here, firstly that 200 lb difference is basically 20 hp, so your engine is making stock or VERY near stock hp, I hate to say it but pulleys alone don't make much of a difference, its more to do with the accessories themselves, if you really want to just maximize your engines efficiency potential, free flowing exhaust(something else btw, gutting your cat hurts performance, if you don't want a cat and emissions are non issue get a straight pipe instead, when you gut a cat it screws up the flow characteristics), free flowing air intake, get yourself a windage tray and crank scraper for your bottom end, then your RA doesn't have to churn through a big ol' glob of oil, tune your ECM, instead of getting UD pulleys, eliminate the accessories altogether, ie. electric WP, and PS pump, both of which I myself plan to do eventually, will pretty much be my last engine mods. Last but not least, full roller rockers, they reduce friction.
Do all that and you should have some pretty nice efficiency and will probably gain 20-30 hp and 5-10 mpg.

As for the shift points Maverick is on the money, your trans is def shifting higher than it should be, and that is usually TV adjusted wrong, if changing your powerband is too much effort than you should just manually shift it at peak power, if you did want to change your powerband hybrid swap and cam would be the way to do it.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Just thought I'd expand on the trans point made above:

A misadjusted TV valve/cable can and will cook a transmission VERY quickly... Believe it's less than a hundred miles, depending on how far off the adjustment is, but I'd have to look it up.

And also, best way to delete the cat and keep the smog police happy is to weld a cat shell onto a straight pipe... They won't know the difference if you do it right .

:edit: Read your posts again and I like the idea of using the late-model PS pulley on the old pump, especially since I have a newer pump I can't use and my pulley on my good pump is screwed...

ItstillaV6

I definitely plan on straight-piping the exhaust. A gutted cat will disrupt flow, by changing exhaust velocity, by collecting and cooling down. Cooler exhaust gases have higher mass and require more force from the engine to be pushed out the tailpipe. I also found that a decent set of headers will help with exhaust flow. Since most engines have a smaller exhaust valve compared to the size to the intake valve size, yes improving the exhaust flow will greatly aid in efficiency.

The ECM chip is in the works. The problem with street chips, is they are designed with emissions control devices in place. Removing the cat and the smog pump will probably require a custom chip. The Summit Racing rep recommended I call the company tech line for the ECM chip manufacturer.

I noticed you haven't mentioned potential gains from improving the ignition system. Improvements to the ignition system will ensure better spark across the entire RPM range. Those plans are in the works too.

I already have an open intake setup. It is listed in my older posts, how i set it up.

My next question is a very good one. Do they make and intake manifold set-up that doesn't cover the whole top-end of the engine? OMG, I thought about installing a set of injectors and I realized that there is no EASY way to get to them. I can BARELY see them. If so, does it have better flow than the stock manifold and is it designed to be used with a stock camshaft?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The ONLY aftermarket intake is the Edelbrock intake for CARBS. That's it. Everything else requires removal of the upper plenum to get at (except the 3.4, which requires modification to use a distributor ignition).

Again, best way to improve engine efficiency is to ditch the cast iron boat anchor cylinder heads and get something newer. Even porting them to the max isn't going to match the STOCK flow of my SMALL-PORT 3100's.

Also, going back through the posts again, since I haven't read this topic in a while, you pointed out that the FWD V6 engines were made in Mexico. Well, according to the 87 Bird Owner's Manual, so is your V6, and mine, and most of the rest (not sure about the newer large displacement engines).

ItstillaV6

Ouch, I was afraid of that. I am not a fan of intake setups on 60* engines, regardless of the manufacturer. I do love the compact design of a 60* engine, overall. I love the fact that I could take a nap in my engine bay, and still have enough room to shut the hood

I'm going to stick with the cast iron heads. I am just not a fan of aluminum heads, unless of course they are bolted to an aluminum bock. Aluminum has better heat dispersal, thanks largely to being having lower density than iron. This can cause warpage, as the aluminum heads heat up and cool down much faster than the block. Aluminum also expands much more than iron does. I didn't plan on porting them at this point. Not a lot of machinists in my area, anymore. Yes I do realize that many gasket companies make "bi-metal" gaskets, specifically for engines with this type of set-up. I personally like a "bi-metal" gasket, as they are better suited for uneven gasket surfaces as well.


At this point, as my usage on here has dropped considerably, I want to thank you guys again for the information and help you are able to give. Finding parts and information for these engines is not always easy, or cheap.

RSB91FB3.1L

So I am having the same issue with the hissing sound coming from gas tank and I am getting horrible gas mileage as well. I am also getting a misfire at low RPM when I give gas to accelerate(under load). It will happen only once in a while. If I give easy gas it will not happen from stop to go. But will happen if I give hard acceleration of even during a turn and gas into the turn very slowly. I have checking timing at is seems to be fine my timing jumps when looking with a timing gun. I jumps from 10 to 12 during idle and when I give gas it smooths out not jumping. I don't want to start changing things without an understanding of what I am looking for. I have read many posts on this site.
things to check:
1) fuel vent valve
2) purge canister
3) vacuum leak
4) torn injector o-ring

Is there any one who as seen this issue and can give me a more narrow guidance?

RSB91FB3.1L

I should prolly mention things that have been done. Has new plugs and wires, coil pack, MAP, TPS, I rebuilt distributor(pick up coil really rusted & leaking o-ring), replaced a bad injector, have replaced a broken vacuum line, Mass Air Flow Sensor. The car does sit 95% of time because of the issue stated above.

ItstillaV6

My fuel tank was sucking air through the fuel return line to the tank. I found out the hard way, when my line ruptured, from rust, and my gas leaked out while driving down the freeway. Since I have had the return line replaced, I haven't had the excess vapor buildup in the tank.


As far as your situation, assuming that your fuel lines do not have any pinhole leaks or holes in them, the situation could be a few things. There is a valve, for pressure relief on the lines coming off the fuel pump. This vent valve helps maintain fuel tank pressure, by bleeding off the vapors that collect in the tank. It is discontinued by GM, and I haven't found a parts store that can get it. I am told they were very prone to failure, by many GM mechanics that live in my area.

There's a vapor valve under that hood, that is vacuum operated by the purge canister. This chunk of plastic is available through NAPA, and runs a nice price of $42+. Gotta love the liberals and their damn "emissions control". They can fail.

The vapor canister itself, could be bad, or the lines could be hooked up wrong. It is available at many auto parts retailers, and the prices vary. I would check the emissions tag on your specific vehicle, for proper routing of the lines. Then make sure they are hooked up properly. The canister itself may be labeled for the routing, with the nipple under your purge sensor reading: Tank, a nipple that is separate reading: Air, and the top nipple being the line to your throttle body.

Your purge solenoid may be bad. There are other post, in this thread I believe, where Maverick explains how to test the solenoid.

As far as a vacuum leak, the canister is drained via "ported" vacuum. The means that as engine speed and airflow increase, so does the vacuum signal on the tank. So at idle, you will have no suction through the line. Opening the throttle, will increase the vacuum. Placing your finger over the line at idle and opening the throttle will allow you to feel the vacuum increase.

If you have a vacuum leak somewhere, this may be disrupted. To test for vacuum leaks, you will need a can of starting fluid and/or a 5/8" diameter rubber fuel line. Start the car, and allow the engine to reach normal operating temperature. You can do this test two ways. As the idle drops, when the engine warms up, sparingly spray the starting fluid around the gasket surfaces of your intake and throttle body. I think carb cleaner will work also. If you have a leak, your idle speed will change, from the addition of the combustible liquid sneaking through and entering the combustion chambers.

The other way to do this test, would be to hold the fuel line up to your ear. run the other end of the fuel line along the gasket areas, throttle body, and vacuum lines. If there is a leak, you will here the hissing sound through your makeshift "stethoscope".

As a last piece of advice, I would recommend replacing the fuel pressure regulator, which is vacuum operated and part of the injector assembly. They are not a known "problem" item, but with the age of our thirdgens getting anywhere from 20-30 years old, anything could go bad on them now.

I hope this helps, and I hope you can find the root of the problem. Also, check out my other thread pertaining to the V6 engine bay "problem" areas. You may find helpful info on there as well.

*To define my meaning of a "problem" area: This is anything on the vehicle, that has a tendency to go bad or break. I go by visual inspection of the vehicle's areas and by word of mouth from any owners.mechanics that I talk to. Majority rules in this case, so it can be 50.1% of all thirdgens produced and I consider that "majority".

ItstillaV6

As far as updating my car's performance. I figured out what the tank capacity is. It is close to 19 gallons, counting a full filler neck. My last full fillup, was 473.2 miles and only 209 of it were highway. Those first 209, just dropped my gauge to the "F" mark.

Some pointers, do NOT connect your fuel tank vapor line directly to the vacuum line for the throttle body. I averaged 40 less highway miles, on the exact same trip as with it hooked up properly. I haven't tried blocking off my EGR yet, and given that the stock cams are designed to be used with and EGR vavle, I'm not too keen on the idea of eliminating it yet.

RSB91FB3.1L

OK thanks for the advice and list of things to do. I have checked the Purge Sensor the way Maverick describes and mine is functioning properly I have not had much time to go further than that. But I will definitely check out the fuel regulator I opened it to check for a Torn bladder inside right before the issue started so that might be the problem. I looked inside the canister to see no gas inside. I was told possibly a clogged return line. I have seen it spit gas out the exhaust during start up. Only during crank-up I will have a trail of gas out of left exhaust pipe, but it does not continue during idle. I will jump more into it. In two weeks I have a buddy who is going to help me go head to tail looking for things. I gladly appreciate the info you have passed my way.

ItstillaV6

I just completed the replacement, of the knock sensor and the oil pressure sending unit. My oil gauge stays in the operating range. It no longer has a "twitchy" motion when reading changes to my oil pressure.

As far as the knock sensor? Well, it took approximately 40 minutes, to do an "Idle Learn". The 2 1/2" radiator does a very good job, of keeping my engine cool. The car did not stall one time, and it didn't misfire as much. My knock sensor was heavily corroded and the first thread had actually rusted away, partially. It did not completely solve my stalling issues. I did, however, get a code 43, AFTER installing the new sensor. So, I'm guessing that Maverick is right, and I have some issues with my fuel system.

Maverick gave me some good advice, of where to look next, to correct that.

The car now has 167,000+ miles(67,000 of which i have put on the car in under 3 years).

As far as performance, well a 147HP Eagle Talon tried to take me, from a 20mph rolling start. We were coming out of a school zone(Ohio Law is 20mph in school zones, during restricted hours), and not only did he not even get even with me, The car hit 2nd gear around 40mph, and continually pulled away from him, until I let off at about 60-65mph(~4500rpm).

Now, that may not sound like much, but considering the Talon is much lighter and has 7 more HP stock, I think he should have been able to get past me.

Trust me, had he had the Turbo, I would have easily been beaten. They were factory rated for 195HP, and I believe they had a "TSi" emblem on the hatch lid. Of course, every available engine option had an appetite for head gaskets, so if you don't see many of the NA-tuned, let alone the turbos.

ItstillaV6

I have ran into something new. I'm trying to figure why my car has had idling issues, and whether engine sensors, fuel injectors, or the ECM is defective.

I haven't tested the injectors yet. Guys at NAPA said that the ohm meter they sell, probably wouldn't read the resistance of my injectors. The lowest setting, on its dial, was 200 ohms. So, I'm up in the air, about buying a voltimeter/tester, unless I know it is what I need.

That being said. I have learned, that when I unplug any of these: knock sensor, MAP sensor, MAT sensor, O2 sensor, I get the corresponding "SES" light and code. Here is where I am stumped.

I can unplug my IAC vavle, and I do NOT get an "SES" code, at all. My Haynes manual does show a code 35, for the IAC vavle. If anyone can clarify how the IAC sends a signal, and what trips the code, I would appreciate it.

I'm trying to narrow down the idling problem, and haven't ruled out my ECM, as yesterday I found a starting/charging circuit wire spliced. The splice was not taped off, and had began corroding. While driving, my car just shut off. No power, no ignition, nothing. I managed to get the vehicle home.

Here, the wire, that was damaged, was also one of my "fusible links". The wires I am referring to are mounted near the radiator, on the passenger side, behind the headlamp. My wiring diagram does show, that a couple of those go to my ignition switch. I'm not too keen on electrical systems, but I do know why "fusible links" are used.

I replaced the "fusible Link" and properly repaired the wires. The car has ran fine since, though I still can't say for certain that the deteriorated wires were causing my electrical "shutdown". Could this wire have caused a short and damaged the ECM?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

1. That NAPA guy is an idiot. The lowest setting on the DMM is for 200 Ohms MAX. Above that, you need to go to the next setting (2K, probably). But, I wouldn't take a NAPA DMM if you paid me to take it. Go to Sears or somewhere and get a decent one.
2. Code 35 is defined as "Uncontrollable Idle Speed". This code is set when the current closed throttle engine speed is more than 125 RPM different than where the ECM has commanded it to be for 45 seconds. The IAC is merely a stepper motor... The ECM has no way to know if it's working, dead, or disconnected.
3. NONE of the fusible links by the passenger's side of the radiator goes to the ignition switch. One is for the fuel pump/oil pressure switch and ECM, one is for the radiator fan relay, and the other one is for the HVAC blower HI speed relay. The ones for the rest of the car are on the starter solenoid. And yes, an intermittent connection at the junction block could wreak havoc on the ECM circuits.

ItstillaV6

Thanks, that narrows my stalling and code 43 down to the original plan of testing my injectors and a possible faulty ECM. I'm going to guess that the knock decoder board, like the CALPAK is located inside the ECM?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

As I said in your PM, the only other part of the ESC system in the V6 is the MEMCAL, which is the calibration circuitry inside the ECM (MEMCAL combines the PROM, CALPAK, and the ESC board into one assembly in the V6), and is the removable blue package inside the door on the ECM.

The MEMCAL has the following:
1. PROM, the chip with the silver sticker on it, like in other ECMs
2. Knock decoder board, the white board viewable through the second window on the top of the case
3. 2 CALPAK chips, mounted under both the PROM and knock boards. I think only one may be the actual CALPAK, but that would leave one other chip in there...

ItstillaV6

Thanks, that does help a lot. I am planning on pulling my ECM, and apparently Autozone can test them now. I just learned, from a Chilton manual, that the MEMCAL controls all that stuff. I don't think I can get just a MEMCAL, and the salesclerk claims that the replacment ECM is already programmed and just needs to be plugged in.

The only thing I know about replacing an ECM(OBD-1), is when we sold the used ones at the salvage yards, we instructed the customer to make sure and swap out their PROM chip.

I just want to say, from having a Delphi-Packard(Howland, Ohio) production facility and the Cavalier/Cobalt/Cruze GM plant(Lordstown, Ohio), BOTH 15 minutes from my home, I'm not surprised that my electrical systems could be having all these problems. My wiring was assembled with pride, here in Ohio....(NE Ohio is the worst area in North America to live currently, with the highest alcohol consumption, depression levels, and unemployment in our country).

No need to incite a war, just want you guys to understand my cynicsm, of living in the area where a lot of GM electrical components were produced.

ItstillaV6

I have one more post, that I forgot to add. The general ECM codes, in the Haynes manual, suggested my code 43 is being caused by a faulty TPS.(OBD-I Haynes Manual).Camaro Haynes manual lists the ECM(MEMCAL, knock decoder board, CALPAKs) or the knock sensor will cause a code 43. As Maverick has told me, faulty fuel injectors can cause it as well, from running lean and causing spark knock.

I unplugged my sensor, and not only did the car NOT stall out at all, it didn't misfire at ANY engine speed, and I have never felt the car idle so smooth, since I bought it, 3 years ago. So I bought the sensor and replaced it. This, of course did not correct my problem.

I am posting this info, to ask if it helps to determine whether the ECM is causing my issue or whether it is my injectors. I think the car would still misfire and act up, if the injectors were bad, but I'm not familiar with how the ECM sets the injector timing pulses. I'm going to guess, that the TPS has an impact in that, but I would like to know for sure. We know where those injectors are located, and atm I don't have the ample time needed to pull my intake plenum, to test their resistance. Any info on this would help greatly.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Don't need to pull the plenum. See that 6 position connector just under and to the right of the TB (looking at it from the front)? Unplug that and test the resistance between the pink wires and the blue and green ones on the INJECTOR side of the harness (if you don't get a reading on a pair, try another one of the wires). Should come out to 4 ohms or thereabouts, but NOT 6 or more, which means there is a bad injector. Also, you can test the CTS from this position on the black and yellow wires in the 2 remaining holes in the harness connector.