i'm gonna try to get a video tomorrow of what my problem is but tonight i'll try to explain it...i recently traded for an 89 2.8 camaro it's automatic...when i got it it didn't have the upper intake or any of the front accessories on as well as the exhaust was unhooked. i finally got it all back together and it is admittedly a little out of time on the distributor but with the way it's acting it should be running. and it's very close...i actually had it running but not without constant revving....i'm lost on what the problem is and i really need some input...i've checked all my work and then triple checked it..all the vaccums are hooked up that i know where was...it was originally torn down to replace the head gaskets. i guess this is the problem with trading for a car i know nothing about and i didn't have any part or tearing down...

thanks ahead of time....
Scott

 

Is the air duct in one piece? There should be a diagram somewhere under the hood of how the vacuum hoses and lines hook up (near the hood striker on the hood itself, generally). Check that the intake bolts and valve covers are tight and that the big hoses and lines for the idle speed control and PCV are hooked up, and that the intake bellows is tight on the TB. Check for codes out of the ECM.

 

I'm severely new to Chevy so i don't know how to read codes on these cars since they are pre-obdII. The air duct is fine and i hooked up all the vacuum lines i could find. I'm not sure because i still have to put a donut gasket on it since it's loud. I guess it could be the valves but he said they were adjusted right and i know his uncle helped and he is a master mechanic for over 40 years. But i can't hear them due to the over loud exhaust...thanks in advance for more input.

 

Does the engine make a bit of a high-pitched whine when cranked? I know some people like to overtighten the valves to factory spec, which is wrong in most cases.

To pull the codes, you'll find a 12-pin connector either by the fuse panel, pointed towards the floor, or just to the left of the radio and heater controls. You want to connect the 2 pins in the top left corner together (the one in the corner and the one next to it on the left) and turn the key to the "On" position without starting the engine. The coolant fan will come on (normal) and the SES light will flash the codes.

 

i checked the codes but all i seem to get is 12 all the time. i made a vid and posted it on you tube. its almost 3 minutes of 12. but you can see what you think.

it's the link below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgrNvApjTa4


i'll try to get a vid of what it's doing when it tries to start tomorrow.

 

bump...can anyone help me i need this car running.

 

Is it the correct stock distributor and is it all hooked up right? When I bought my Trans Am I took the stock dis out and all I could ever get from the trouble codes was a code 12. When I put it back in I got a couple more codes that I couldn't get before.

 

it's the dizzy that was in it before when it was running....i just don't know what it could be..if it was a ford i'd have it running already but i'm a chevy virgin pretty much...the only thing i've dealt with before was a 2.2 in cavaliers and s-10's but i have tried about everything...even went over my work and tried to find something new but all i got was a single vac line that wasn't plugged in and i fixed it so right now i just don't know. i pulled the dizzy out and set it back in a couple times so it has been unplugged if that was what you're saying...would a vid of what it's doing help anyone?

 

Well, start over again finding the base time. Put the #1 cylinder at TDC and restab the dizzy. #1 is front pass side, not driver's side.

 

180 degree out of timing

 

i really need a timing light...are the notches in the damper supposed to be tdc last time i did it i stuck a screw driver in no 1 piston but it coulda been 180 out. i've messed with the dizzy so much now it won't even start and that dizzy is a PITA to get to.

 

The WIDE mark on the damper is #1/4 TDC, should align with the deep V in the timing tab for TDC #1/4. If you have to, pull the intake and the pass side valve cover to make sure the #1 valves are closed when at TDC.

 

so at the wide mark # 1 and 4 piston are at TDC is that what i'm reading? Most fords have it stamped on the damper and a pointer..but you guys aren't ford guys..i'm 21 just learning a new make..i guess i'm gonna order a set of valve covers to cut up so when i get it running again i can start it and set the valves...i'll just have to cut up the ones i get and try that... since i've heard that is honestly the best way to do it period. is there any reason i'm getting all 12's on the codes? Anything else i should try? Anything i should know more about these engines?

 

Yes, the wide mark on the damper is TDC 1 and 4. The narrow ones are 2 and 5 and 3 and 6. You can't really set the valves with the engine running. What you do is to loosen all of the rockers enough that you can move them aside and remove the pushrods. Clean the oil and crap off of the rods, and put them back in. Adjust each closed valve down until there is no more vertical play in the pushrod, and then tighten it another half to 3/4 turn. Any more than that and you risk losing compression due to valve float.

 

yeah i've read alot on doing the valve adjustments but i think it can be done running by listening and turning them to no longer clatter...that's how my dad did it...he says the best way is by ear but if it don't work doing it without it running or i hear some valve clatter i'll probably try it his way.either way i'm working on it...

good news is i was messing with the dizzy and seen some spark tonight....i looked at it and there's a stud on the back of the cylinder head that has the firewall ground and some other grounds that idk what they go to but it was loose...i tightened it up and now atleast it's trying to start....just a crank crank crank crank crank hit crank crank crank crank crank hit crank crank crank crank crank hit crank crank crank crank crank hit...then my battery dies...idk what it is....it seems to hit better when i'm pumping the gas but that doesn't mean much...i assume the valves aren't properly adjusted at this point...before when i had it running just a couple days ago i had to stay on the gas constantly pumping until it warmed up some then it would idle super rough...i'm seriously gonnna get a vid and see what you guys think. but maybe tomorrow i'll try to get the valve covers off...is there anyway to do it just by removing the upper intake? i know there's only 2 bolts under that lip has anyone done it with a wobble head..or something?

 

Problem with our engines is that you MUST take the entire intake apart to get the valve covers off. The covers hit the lower plenum as you lift them off, so you would have to knock the whole engine down and put it back together again after you get the covers off.

As for the firing situation, you may want to see if the fuel injectors are working. The reason the engine keeps hitting occasionally is because of the cold start injector in the back of the intake manifold by the dizzy base. It provides enough fuel to slightly enrich cold starts, but won't run the engine alone.

 

after i charged my battery back up i went and tried it...it was hitting every time...and if i pushed on the throttle up to a certain point it would hit harder like start getting the rpms up but it wouldn't ever run for me...it in time and i know its getting fuel cause it's smelly and it's hitting pretty good...but i don't know why it wont run..unless the valves aren't opening and closing properly....what else could it be...what sensors might cause it?

 

Hello Heavy Chevy. Welcome to thirdgen and the wonderful world of chevy engines. As a general rule, chevy engines are pretty easy to work on, and they are pretty reliable when you keep them tuned up and in good shape. Here's my suggestions for you.

First, buy yourself a Haynes or a Chiltons repair manual for your car. This will be envaluable for you and it gives you the specs, trouble shooting techniques, repair techniques, proceedures to follow and test proceedures to follow along as well as a pictorial refernece to help guide you through each proceedure you are going to tackle with your car.

Now, in the front of the book there is a trouble shooting guide that tells you what to do when your ar isn;t doing what it is supposed to do, how to check for it., test it, possible causes, and fix the problems. I'm going to give you what my manual says for, " Engine rotates, but wont start. "

1.) Fuel tank empty.
2.) Battery discharged ( engine rotates slowly ). Check the operation of electrical components as described in previous section. ( this would be things like, loose battery cables, automatic transmission not fully in park, or clutch nopt completely depressed, broken, loose, or disconnected wiring in the starti8nfg circuit. Inspect all wiring and connecters at the battery, starter solenoid, and ignition switch, things like that.
3.) Battery terminal connections loose oe corroded.
4.) Carburetor flooded and/or fuel level in carbuerator incorrect. This will usually be followed by a strong fuel oder. from under the hood. Wait a few minutes, cdepress the accelerator pedal all the way to the floor and attempt to start the engine.
5.) Choke control inoperative
6.) Fuel not reaching the carbuerator. With the ignition switch in the Off position, open the hood, remove the top plate of the air cleaner assembly, and observe the top of the carburetor ( manually move choke plate back if necassary. Have an assistant depress accelerator pedal and check that fuel spurts into carburetor. If not, check fuel filter, fuel lines, and fuel pump.
7.) Fuel injectors, ECM, or fuel pump faulty ( fuel -injected vehicles )
8.) Excessive moisture on, or damage to ignition components.
9.) Worn, faulty, or incorrectly gapped spark plugs.
10.) Broken, loose or disconnected wiring in the starting circuit.
11.) Distributor loose, causing ignition timing to change. turn the distributor as necassary to start the engine, ( which is how you time it anyways, or get it started ), then set ignition timing as soon as possible.
12.) Broken, loose, or disconnected wires at the ignition coil or faulty coil.

Ok that's all the manual lists for that section in the trouble shooting guide. Hopefully there's some things you haven;t thought of or tried that you need to check into. but at least now you have a starting point from which to work from.

The manual also covers in trouble shooting, " Engine hard to start when cold "
" Engine hard to start when hot ", " Engine starts, but stops immediately ", " Engine lopes while idling or idles erradically " and lots of other trouble shooting things to do to prevent problems along with what chapers to read to cure and fix the problems.

Like I said pick up a service manual ( I have the haynes manual, which I like better than the chiltons both both are good ). I hope this helps you.

Best wishes with it bro. Driving and enjoying your Camaro will be a memory that you will cherish for a long time to come. Just wait to you see how it handles when you have it running right. The Camaro is One car that goes from th street to the track with No Problem, and, it'll beat a Porche. ( as will a Firebird/Trans Am )*S*


Camaro-454

 

While I agree with this guy for the most part, I have to disagree on the second part. Haynes and Chilton's manuals are cheap for a reason. They're way too vague on most things, and a lot of the troubleshooting is incorrect and barely skims the surface on most problems (specifically the trouble codes part). There is a guy on here selling a factory service manual for $35, but it's for an 87. You can find an FSM on eBay dirt cheap (got both of mine for about $45 or so), and it will cover anything you need it to.

You might try turning the dizzy to the left about a half inch. Sounds as though you're firing WAY ATDC. Stock timing is 10* BTDC.

 

i had it set on tdc but i also tried turning the dizzy while starting it. nothing happened and we know how it get's when you get too involved in a problem you over look stuff...well my dad came and listened to it...(actually he came to the garage to cut a piece of 2x4) anyway he said as bad as he could smell fuel plugs might be fouled...Duh...i've only been wrenching for 8 years...i should be able to see that myself...so i pulled the plugs...horribly fouled...we cleaned them and put them back and so it was really trying to start...it was getting some rpms going...it should start...it just won't....but it's definately trying...


i agree on the service manual but i'm currently laid off and having some financial problems...i couldn't even think about buying one...but as soon as i guy it the first night i ordered a Haynes..mostly for the torque specs...that's all i use it for mostly except for the occasional part picture..but it's here and i've skimmed through it it's just not getting me anywhere fast...Thanks guys you've given me alot of up....

As a proclaimed Ford man i have heard all the hype about how Chevy's rock...honestly...even as a Ford guy i just have a lust for cars...Domestic ones that is...i own 2 Fords and 2 Chevy's...but i've owned them all and 1 honda passport(<-----Piece of crap) I got a 01 Cavalier Z24 that's my daily driver and i love it..it's like my dream car in reality. i can't say nothing bad about Chevy's but i'm just now learning them and it's new to me...completely new...but this will be a learning curve and i'm enjoying it so far...as long as i can get cheap parts and keep it running it's all good.


BTW check out my thread in the General Tech section...Can someone point out what all those gaskets go to?

 

Just kinda skimmed so dont shot me.

Is there spark coming out of the dizzy? on all the cylinders?

 

Should check to see what color the spark is coming out of the coil. If it's not bright white, you should try a new coil. Otherwise, have the ignition module tested. It's inside the dizzy, bolted to the base. Oh, and make sure you have the tan/black wire hanging out of the harness by the A/C blower disconnected to set the timing.

 

This thread really helped me out....... Got a 92 RS with a 3.1..

 

so if the ignition module was bad i shouldn't have any spark...atleast in my experience. i know i'm getting spark to the plugs and from the coil and it seems to be strong...i'm gonna get a vid first thing tomorrow cause i dont' know how to explain the problem.

 

well i got the vid...it's not the greatest but it's got enough audio you can here it trying to start. either way it's what it's doing and it's nothing great...i hope it helps someone cause right now i'm at a loss of ideas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KNzSMRQCL8

 

Sounded like at the beginning was the best position for dizzy. Maybe rotate a bit slower or to the other side. When i had V6 then it did the same things to me. Just wont run like it supposed to until one day the oilpump fouled and ruined the crank...I went with a V8 instead of rebuilding the V6. )Does it make any diffrence when you hold the gaspedal on some certain position? If it does, then i would check the plenum gaskets(I know, they are new)...I had similar problem, that bad starting and no idle what so ever...had cracks in the plenum gaskets. Also check that the plenum itselt hasnt been damaged. And the sensors ofcourse...try to disconnect them and see what happens. Is the firing order correct? Or is the dizzy itself correctly in place? And you may look again at those valves...V6 did weird things i tell ya

 

idk if i'm right but even in time if the valves weren't doing there job properly then it would cause that..i just dread tearing the engine back down to find out that they where okay. thanks guys..i'm always open to suggestions.

 

one more question though...if i compression test the engine will it help me know if it's got some screwy valves?

 

Engine compression should be around 160 PSI if your gauge is halfway decent. And yes, the module can fail just fine even showing spark. My AC/Delco module died on me still running when cold and misfired like a pain when hot and trying to accelerate (before the instructor in the other class decided he would crank the engine over without the coil connected to anything and fried the little bit that was left of the ICM, costing me $80 I didn't have ).

:edit: And check to make sure all of the gaskets are where they are supposed to be and that all of the bolts are tight... Etc, etc...

 

i've checked everything...i'm gonna rent a compression checker later but i'll probably just start tearing it down later...when it cools down...even in the garage it's too hot right now...37748 at is where i am in tn...it's been 107 heat index lot lately...can't wait til winter

 

been working on the Camaro since about 8:30 last night it's now 6 am and i just got my shower and settled in. anyways since no one here care's about that....i tore it down to get the valve covers off....not a hard task at all especially since i was scared of it....i tried my hardest to adjust the valves...and i assume that's my problem since when i compression tested it my highest number was about 85 and that was only on one..the rest where something like 60-75 PSI....no where near close....so i tore it down and long story short it kicked my butt...it's so touchy when trying to do this...so i made me some valve covers that everyone needs to see and i'm gonna try tomorrow to start it...that way if i 'm off a little it won't be so hard to fix it...and i can tweak with it how i need to then i'll tear it back down and put on my real valve covers (after a couple good coats of Daytona Yellow. i'll get some pics later when i wake up...some time this afternoon. but if everything goes well i'll have it running tomorrow night... wish me luck...

 

Did you clean the pushrods before adjusting the valves? The nuts only need to go down about 3 turns or so from the top of the stud. Worse comes to worse, you can set the valves using the compression gauge.

 

i neglected to get pictures today and when i went to try it earlier i discovered i forgot to hook up the fuel line.....rookie mistake...but i'll get pics and we're gonna get it done soon...i will hook up the fuel lines and hopefully i'll have it running...it's just not on my agenda tonight.but probably tomorrow it's not gonna be too bad..we should be able to get it running...get ready for a big laugh.

 

i have been working on the car since 530 today to no avail. i have officially tried everything....is there anyway i can unplug the wire on an injector to see if the ECM is telling it to fire...or how would i go about testing that besides the ohms of the injectors....the guy i got it from had 2 ECM's in it...one mounted under the dash where it should be and one in the floor.the one it the floor is supposed to be the one for it and the one in the dash is supposed to be for a 4.3 blazer engine he was gonna swap into it. How can i tell for sure which ECM is supposed to be hooked up to mine...Is there any sensor that may be causing it to be crazy...i checked all the fuses and i still don't have anything but a dead battery again...I'm going crazy here...i want it running Sooooooooooooooo bad...G'nite

 

anybody?

 

upon more research i found that the timing chain being off even one tooth would subtantially kill compression...is that correct? if so i'm gonna tear down the front and check it...thanks

 

I don't know what compression in each cylinder is supposed to be in these cars, look it up, but those numbers look low across the board. Which would indicate that your timing chain is off a tooth or two as you suspect, or the motor is completely toasted.

You need to attack this in a logical order with definitive answers to eliminate problems, which you have not done so far. You are a victim of thinking too much and just reacting my friend, LOL. Your drive to fix it is great, but I think you might be too busy here. It could definitely be a plenum leak, intake gasket leak, head gasket leak, injectors, or the ECM. It could even be a fuel pump. But it is probably the ignition system. This isn't a carb'ed car with mechanical or vacuum advance either, having spark means nothing because all of that spark is electronically timed and delivered to the right place. You can spark all day but only foul plugs if it ain't on compression stroke and when the valves are opened/closed correctly.

I heavily suspect your ignition system, and would do this in this order before proceeding to the timing chain, and lastly the injectors.

Get a multimeter and test the ignition coil and the pickup coil. OHM test the injectors also, it is too easy to neglect. All test procedures can be found in a cheap Haynes manual or on this site. The ignition control module cannot be tested at home, but is easy to replace. You should just buy one if both other components are good, and try it. You can always take it back if you get no change.

Then get this dizzy stabbed %100 correctly. Before you stab it this last time, make sure the distributor spins freely, and none of the outer tangs hit any of the inner ones or are irregular. Make sure the pin is in the gear on the bottom, and it cannot spin freely of the shaft. Make sure the pickup coil is tested and new one installed if needed.

First, every piston comes to TDC TWO TIMES. This is crucial, you MUST be on the COMPRESSION stroke. Put a straw in #1 cylinder and turn it until it blows air in your face as it comes up, then put a long screwdriver in it and continue turning slowly until the screwdriver does not come up anymore for 1/4 turn or so. You are now on TDC #1 compression stroke. Make sure the firing order is correct at this time (you Ford guys ALWAYS screw this up, LOL) and stab the dizzy so it points RIGHT AT #1 WHEN IT COMES TO REST. Make sure your plugs are clean and gapped right again. Then rotate it counter clockwise up to 1/4 of a turn or so with the timing connector unplugged as you're trying to start it and see if you make any progress.

I think you'll be changing a coil or pickup coil, and be done with it... You might have to re-stab that dizzy no matter what since you've been playing with it so much, so do that too. Let's see what you get.

 

There is a way to test the ignition module yourself, but even I haven't been able to get it to work. It involves a battery, jumper wires, and a test light. They can be tested at some parts stores for free. Tell the guy running the test to run the test until the module is hot.

Anyways, as for the ECM situation, you may want to check out the DFI and ECM section and the 1227302 to other ECM swap sticky for pinout information. It sounds as though the PO attempted to repin the connector and may have screwed something up along the way, making a dead engine. The car is supposed to have the ECM that isn't the TBI ECM.

 

He hasn't even checked the basics well enough to know what it isn't yet. All this jumping around will never get it solved. Stay away from the ECM and crap before you make this worse than it is and almost impossible to trace. I've seen it a lot. The previous owner was probably lying, they always are... LOL.

You cannot test the ICM properly with a test light. You can test it all day and usually won't get hot enough to fail on the bench either. Sometimes it will, usually won't. You can test, but you still won't know. The heat that brings it up to temp in order to fail is usually enviromental heat created from the engine compartment, not the component itself. That's why the swap is crucial.

I also doubt it is the ECM, since it goes into diagnostic mode and properly flashes a code 12 at that time. If it was the 4.3 ECM I think it would read a fault and not flash the "all is ok" code 12 (to the original poster: which means no distributor reference by the way, it is normal and not a fault). A 4.3 usually has HEI, and totally different electronics... So I don't see why he would put a 4.3 ECM in there. Or why it would even be an idea in the first place. And I don't see it "checking out" and pushing a code 12 on a whole different bank of sensors if it was a 4.3 ECM either.

After seeing the video... Clean your plugs. And go through the ignition. That is definitely coil, pickup coil, wires, or ICM. Maybe a bad ground in the distributor base for the ICM or pickup coil also. Check the wiring going to the base of the distributor (that is hooked up, right? LOL) for any faults also.

 

Don't think you've gone to school for this, buddy. I have the manuals to tell how to test the ICM on the bench. I've gotten the ICM hot, but the result was never as it's supposed to be. The module is supposed to switch when you connect one terminal to another and turn the test light off, but mine never did. And yes, you can have them test the ICM until it gets just about hot enough to burn. Been there and done that with the first one, which was fine cold and failed hot. You can also take it in hot.

Oh, and there are times that a code 12 isn't normal. Do your homework first. There's a reason why it's called a fault code. If there is a reason for the code 12, then that should be checked as well. It's also when code 12 isn't flashed that there is a problem, but that isn't the case here.

And if the ECM terminals were repinned for the TBI system and put back improperly, it is possible that the ECM is sending a code 12 (requires mostly power, ground and some signal wires) but not triggering either the ignition or the fuel injectors, neither of which throw codes. Either that, or the fuel injector power wires were messed with (separate connector in the earlier harnesses) and were not replaced into their connector. There could be a whole host of problems, but with everything being screwy (low compression, for one, as I said above, should be WAY more than 80-90 PSI, actually double that) he needs to check the valve timing and the valve lash before he does anything else. As that could be the cause of the problems right there.

 

don't anybody start fightin in here...take it to the parking lot...lol

I said it before that chevy is new to me...but no matter what i do to the valves i get no better compression...i've tried them tight and loose...i agree that it could be an ignition problem...it could be a fuel problem...but even as is with the no run problem i don't want to put it all back together with no compression. it would be pointless...the absolute best i can get out of it was 90 psi on cylinder 1....

like a said in a previous post i read on several places that the same lack of compression on all cylinders is likely caused by the timing chain or belt being either off some teeth or has slipped or has too much slack...would anyone confirm that this could be a problem.

 

I just kinda skimmed so don't flame me if this was brought up. But, this same exact thing happened to me and I about ripped my head off, then I put a set of spark plugs in my car and it didn't even turn over, I touched the key and it was running. Have you tried a set of plugs?

 

it's funny that you say that cause there for a while it wouldn't even hit...but if you read another post dad suggested i clean the plugs and i did and it started hitting again. but to answer your question yes i have bought new plugs only to ruin them by cranking and flooding way to much.

 

code 12 is not a problem code, it is shown to let you know the error code diagnostic system is functioning correctly, all obd 1 vechichles should display this when checking for trouble codes

 

Okay, it was worth a shot. If your ignition module was bad it would throw a code in the ECM. Code 12 is nothing to be worried about, it is just there to show that your system is running correctly. Have you checked your plug wires? If the resistance of any plug wire is below 6 ohms it needs replaced. Another thing to try would be an ignition coil ($20 for BWD Coil from Advance). You also need to make sure your timing is correct, 10* BTDC.

 

guys check out my thread in the tech/general section about "is my timing right" i posted pics there.

 

you need to pull the front cover and check the timing chain gears on the cam shaft and teh crank shaft. If the cam gear is a nylon gear the teeth often break off and the chain can jump a tooth. You'll never be in time if that happened. The fact that you have poor compression is tellin gme that the pistons are not moving up with the valves closed.

Everything else is good it seems. I would check the timing chain and gears.

 

i bought my own compression tester yesterday cuz i caught a good deal on it. after checking compression with it all cylinders are between 150 to 170 psi. how do i set the valves by compression?

 

Well, now that you have accurate compression readings, it's time to button the top end of the engine back up and get working on other things. The engine is healthy, with the cylinders within about a 10% compression range from high to low, which is a good thing. Now that we know that, we can look for other problems, mainly in the wiring. As I posted before, you need to hop on over to the DFI and ECM section and get a pinout of your ECM connectors to make sure everything is in the right holes over there. You also need a pinout of C207 and C221 to make sure those are good as well.

 

Heavy Chevy -

I don't think you have had a working coil, pickup coil, ICM, ignition wires, or a set of plugs firing correctly, and/or all at the same time since this started. After watching your video, I've fixed dozens of these exact motors in this way with the exact same symptoms in F-bodies, S-10's, Cutlass' and Regals. "Having spark" means nothing, there is probably still an ignition problem. Don't try to fire the car again until you do all of this at once or you will just foul it out out and flood it. Check the ignition wires, coil, and pickup coil CORRECTLY, with a GOOD DIGITAL VOLTMETER. Take no shortcuts and make sure all is within spec for each component. Replace anything that doesn't check out. Replace the ICM. Check the grounds and clean them. Make sure your distributor is stabbed correctly. Set base timing to 10 degrees BTDC with a timing light while the EST wire is unplugged and you're cranking it over. Actually do all of this and do it well. ONLY THEN, install new spark plugs, make sure they are gapped correctly, then try to fire the car. At this point you will finally know if something in your ignition system is bad. If not, you are only out whatever money you spent on whatever tested bad, which needed to be replaced anyways. The ICM you can clean up and take it back if need be.

Maverick - I'm just trying to help him. So far, he is a victim of a simple problem, his own skimming through posts, and the shortcuts he has been taking under the hood. People always blame the ECM when they can't properly troubleshoot a car. I've fixed hundreds of supposed "bad ECM's" with a common sensor troubleshooted in a logical process. The car is acting normally as far as the ECM is concerned for now, it just won't start, and we haven't even covered the basics yet. So why are we moving to an ECM

EXAMPLE: Cleaning the plugs, and cranking it over and over and over, it still won't fire... But the plugs are now so fouled it won't start anyways (because it gets SOME spark) yet you all continue to "troubleshoot" the ignition system (which consisted of "it sparkeded to da valve cubbers"). THIS IS NOT HOW YOU WORK ON CARS. I knew the compression was fine because of how all the other tests were approached also. I might not know everything, but as smart as you think you are, people don't care much for snide remarks or internet tough guy acts just because someone disagree with you. You'll chase your tail all day like this, just to end up finding a bad coil... So don't act like you went to school for this. LOL

(BTW, we all laugh at the college guys in the shop, they talk a lot of theory, and "know everything", but never get anything fixed despite all that)