Horst

need all the help I can get.
1st.Do I have to take the engine out?
and than?
Horst

TomP

Ouch.. I guess it'd be a head gasket, guys?

You can do this with the motor in the car.. of course everything has to come off the top- such as throttle body, intake manifold, distributor, the power steering & alternator (they bolt to the heads), exhaust manifolds, sensors, etc..

My buddy's doing this right now to a 2.8l Chevy station wagon. It's front wheel drive so he's cursing nonstop.. everything's hard to get at for the "rear" head.

-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards

scoob8000

yeah i suppose its the head gasket, although it is possible its a cracked head or block..
i forget how to check to see what side is bad.. its been so long since ive replaced a bad head gasket...

Kevin S

Anyone want to take bids on the intake gasket?
Man I feel for you!I've been there
You can disassemble the top half of your engine in the car,which I did.
But,after 2 days it started knocking.The oil/coolent took out the oil pump.

If I were you I would pull it to check the bearings and replace the oil pump while your at it.
I have been there twice(lol) If I can help drop me some mail.

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Kevin S
10.9 @ 62.87 (1/8 mile)
89 RS 2.8(bored .030)
B&M shift Improver
B&M Mega Shifter
Perma Cool trans cooler
Accel Wires,
Ignition module,
Super coil
Streetrunner chip(for now)
Flowmaster
1.52 Roller rockers

Things You Will Never Hear a Man Say....

Damn, too bad this car isn't a four cylinder.

Jason E

I'd be willing to say its a head gasket too...pray it isn't a cracked head!! When my dad's head cracked on his '91 Grand Am Quad 4 (they all crack or blow head gaskets eventually!!) his oil looked the same as you described.

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Jason E
'89 Camaro RS 2.8
Medium Grey Metallic/AT/T-tops/all power
Hypertech chip/2 K&N filters/Modded air box
Eclipse CD/Eclipse 100x4 amp/Boston4x6 plates, 6x9 RX 3 ways/ALL Monster's goodies
Alpine Alarm w/ Keyless entry
IROC tailights/t-windows

Engineboy

My money is with Kevin on this one.

I see more intake gaskets than I do head gaskets on 2.8s.

The biggest problem is once they start knocking, they NEVER quit.

By the time you hear knocking its too late. I pulled one out of a S10 the other day and it had only been knocking for about a couple of miles (thats how far the cust. lived.) and after I repaired the blown intake gasket and changed the oil/filter it still knocked.

Engine was a goner...spun the 2nd main and 2 rod bearings. Crank was junk.

The intake manifolds usually rot out around the water passages.

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ASE Mechanic/Machinist/Smog Tech

1999 NBM Trans Am
1986 Chevy 3/4 ton pick up
1981 corvette
1995 Kawi ZX6R

GO #3

[This message has been edited by Engineboy (edited September 22, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Engineboy (edited September 22, 2000).]

Horst

now I've opened the thing, the gaskets ain't cracked, but at a few places they look bad, (I mean not silver) they have black parts. I hope it's it.
I'll put a complete set of gaskets in, new distributer, thermostat, plugs, oilfilter...
what else?
What about the oilpump, do I have to replace it?
thanks so far guys.
Horst

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www.marion-becker-nidda.de

mta227

The "chocolate milk oil" that indicates a coolant/oil mix is called an emulsion. This results in two very bad things. One is that this emulsion is no longer effective at lubrication, and number two is that the coolant contains acidic components that immediatly start to eat bearings. significant damage to a stock copper/lead crankshaft bearing will occur within a few hundred miles. I "always" recommend a full engine rebuild if this condition is present, since it is quite unlikely that it will be detected before excessive bearing damage has occured.

82-T/A

Ok, Well I've done a few of these on these motors. Just pray you don't have to do them on a FWD setup in a FIERO!!! (Fieros motor is in the back, but it's still transversally mounted).

In any case, you now know that the chocolate milkshake look is from the oil and water mixing.

Obviously this is bad. Do not drive it at ALL.. even if you have to back it into the garage.. push it. Do NOT start it. One thing I would do immediately though is dump all that crap oil out of there that you can.

NEXT I would put all fresh new oil in there... it's going to be a waste.. but put it in there. Start the car for about 30 seconds. The point of this is to get as much crap out of there as you can. That antifreeze is very acidic to the internal engine components. What we basically did is try to replace the crap with good oil.. obviously only temporarily. Leave that new oil in there too.. because it's going to get even more antifreeze and WD-40 and PB Blaster down there when you do the rebuild.

I would have to say the hardest part of the entire rebuild are making sure the EGR hoses stay intact. Under the intake manifold, it literally looks like spahgetti. You probably won't need to label them, just make sure this part is correct.

One thing in particular about THIS motor.. the MPFI version of the 2.8/3.1/3.4 is that it requires an UNBELIEVABLE amount of torque for the head.. it requires 91 foot pounds if my memory serves me correct. Do not take my word for it though, GET yourself a Haynes or Chilton's manual.

In any event.. those head bolts are actually submerged in coolant all the time... therefore you need to get a special kind of FelPro goo that is specifically meant for sealing coolent submerged bolts. I can't remember what it's called.. but you'll need to get that.

Do not use ANTI-SEIZE lubricant on these because the waterproof gel you put on there will do the same thing. Plus the threads are fine enough that you can actually cause the bolt to strip it's threads by using that stuff (happened to me.. except it was the BLOCK that stripped it's threads... )

First thing I would do is start taking everything apart.. it wouldn't hurt to take some pictures for reference.. if not for the heck of having pictures of a taken apart motor!.

It really isn't THAT hard of a job.

In longitudal format.. it should be VERY easy.

A few tools you WILL need are a breaker bar.. to remove the head bolts. You'll want this in a 3/4th inch size and probably about 1.5 to 2 feet length. You'll want a Torque wrench of similar dimensions. Both of these should run you back about $50 bucks together for GOOD American tools (Japanese just don't export good tools... their crap).

Once you've got the heads removed, you will want to take these in to a machine shop to have them magnufluxed. This is all apart of the valve job process. It should cost you about $100 dollars. This will also determine if the heads are cracked and need replacement.

If it's just a bad head gasket.. then the projected cost of repair (if YOU do the work) is about $300 dollars. This includes new head bolts, a complete head gasket set, and the valve job... and any $50 bucks for misc crap.

If you were to take it in to a shop, expect to pay around $2,500-$3,000 dollars.

IF your heads are cracked.. expect to add another $250-300 dollars minimum for one new head. This can go up depending on whether or not the intake manifold pieces are warped or now.

First thing I would do is take the heads in. It's worth it to you to at least find out if the heads are good or not. They'll charge you 20 dollars to at least find out of the heads are good or not. Take your heads off and ask them to Magnuflux them. This is the $20 dollar service.

Let us know before you start putting it back together though, I've done a ton of small inexpensive mods that have gained me around 15-20 horsepower.

Todd

Horst

thanks so far Todd,
I'll do like you say, have a question about the valves, one has marks where it is in contact to the camshaft, does that mean somthing seriously?
Horst

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www.marion-becker-nidda.de

Horst

Hi Todd, Tomorrow I will put the parts together after I have done what you said. What about the mods that have gained you around 15-20 horsepower?
Horst



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www.marion-becker-nidda.de

Horst

Thanks to all of you for the big help, I'm back on the road again , did all the things you said,motor sounds great, no knocking but I think I have lost some power, guess 20 % (I have a new dynomax muffler), is that why? sound is great.
Horst

Engineboy

What was it?? Intake?? Cylinder head gasket?? Engine rebuild??

------------------
ASE Mechanic/Machinist/Smog Tech

1999 NBM Trans Am
1986 Chevy 3/4 ton pick up
1981 corvette
1995 Kawi ZX6R

GO #3

Horst

both headgaskets had black marks.
heads are magnufluxed now 40$, new bolts
130$, compl. set of gaskets 200$, new distributer cap, new spark plugs, I think that was it.

new dynomax muffler 184$
Horst

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www.marion-becker-nidda.de
91 Firebird 3.1
Modsynomax muffler

Engineboy

Cool.

You got lucky if its not knocking. Most 2.8/3.1s don't survive with water in the case.

------------------
ASE Mechanic/Machinist/Smog Tech

1999 NBM Trans Am
1986 Chevy 3/4 ton pick up
1981 corvette
1995 Kawi ZX6R

GO #3

[This message has been edited by Engineboy (edited October 23, 2000).]

TomP

Did I get this right? Magnafluxing was $40, and new head bolts were $130??


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards

Horst

exactly TomP, the guy said give me 40$ for the magnufluxing and thats it, the guy lives next door and he owens a company producing all kinds of metal parts and he is a ralley racedriver,he has a heart for this he also made my adapters 2.25" to 2.5" for the exhaust sys.
The bolts I bought here in germany and they are GM-parts
maybe thats why this price.
Horst

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www.marion-becker-nidda.de
91 Firebird 3.1
Modsynomax muffler