Hey everyone.

Just joined the forums to ask you guys about my car. I've been fixing it up slowly, but now i'm stumped..

Let me start off by saying that i'm not the most mechanically inclined person in the world as i've only been learning/working on cars for a few years. So, please bear with me.

The car is a '92 Firebird with the 3.1. The car had cooling problems, so I've replaced the hoses, radiator, water pump, t-stat. The car doesn't overheat anymore, so that's a plus.

Now, whenever I drive the car, there is a horrible smell of oil burning. I can see white smoke coming out of the hood, right where the windshield meets the hood on the drivers side on the corner. It's going through about a quart every week or two. I've asked some people around work and they say to replace the valve cover gaskets. I'm going to do those this weekend. Could that be the problem?

Do you guys have any other suggestions as to why the car is burning oil? Where is a good place to start with this? Sorry for the long post, wanted to give a detailed explination to where i'm at with this car.

Any and all help is appriciated.

 

Welcome to TGO! That's definitely a good place to start looking for oil leaks however, when the car is not running and the engine is cold (so you don't burn yourself), can you see signs of the oil leak? Are your headers or exhaust manifolds (whichever you have) wet with oil or show signs of oil being burned? I'm pretty sure they are, but it's also good to confirm. It could also be your oil filter and/or oil pan and it may be dripping over the "Y" pipe or exhaust right under the engine.

 

Thanks for the welcome!

I'm probably going to just change the gaskets. The car sat in GA for about a year-ish. Had it towed up here and it sat for another year.

I can't see anywhere on the ground where the oil is dripping down. I'll get out there after work and start the car and get it at normal temperature and see if I can see any dripping. Didn't think about checking further back, like near the pan.

Pretty sure it's not the filter. Just changed the oil/filter and there is no way I could have messed that up.

 

Sounds like a good plan. Good luck with your project man. I hope you get it figured out soon so you can start enjoying your car.

 

I wish I could enjoy the car. Unfortunately it's my sisters car, and i'm trying to get it fixed up for her. I don't have the pleasure of owning a 3rd gen F-body, but one day, i'm sure I will. I have my own project of a '07 Mustang. Haha.

I will say, I get excited whenever I get to "test drive" her car, because I can't resist just slamming on the gas.

As soon as I replace the gaskets, i'll let you guys know what the verdict is.

 

Hahaha, too funny. And your sister's is a V6, you should see them with the v8 engines, those are even more fun to drive.

 

I've been trying to convince her to buy a small block so we can swap it out. She doesn't seem to have the same need for speed as I do. I would love to see what that car could do with a 350 in it.

 

Maybe you need to start shopping around for you own TG with a 350 or even nicer engine hahaha

 

I'm trying to talk my dad into teaching me everything he knows about cars by rebuilding his '71 Camaro. My attempts of convincing him aren't going so well.

If I didn't have this car payment, I would already have a TG.

To keep on topic, when I pull the valve covers off, is there something specific that I should be looking for to see if the valves are bad or anything like that?

 

Asked my sister again, and she is saying "no" to the engine swap since we would have to replace the trans and everything else. Was worth a shot though.

Going to ask another question since this car is completely different compared to shopping for my cars.

The car doesn't have heat/AC. I've been told that the car doesn't have a heater core. What would be a good one to buy and how easy/hard are those to install? Not sure why it doesn't have AC. Guess I need to replace the condenser?

I'll take a few pictures of the car/engine later today so you guys can see what i'm working with.

 

You may find the options sticker either in the console or in the locking compartment in the hatch. If the sticker lists C41, it has heat (it has to have either heat or heat and A/C if it hasn't been screwed with), if it has C60, it has/had A/C. Easy enough to see, if there is a black box with a motor on it on the passenger's side of the bulkhead, that would be the fan box. If there is a big hole under the passenger's side of the dash where it seems that there SHOULD be something, that's because there SHOULD. It may be that the stuff isn't working.
As for the engine, start with the valve cover gaskets (you'll need an intake gasket set because EVERYTHING gets taken off to remove the valve covers), and a distributor o-ring and gasket (gasket will be from a 305 or 350 or other SBC). And, before you rip it apart, spray it down nice with degreaser and water to clean it up so you can see any other leaks that you may have later.

 

Well everyone, turns out it was the manifold that was leaking oil. This is how I spent my Saturday.



I can honestly say, I don't know how you guys do it. Removing this thing was a beast and took about 11-ish hours. It just seemed that I was taking off more things than what I wanted. It's all good though. Everything is back in it's proper spot.

Also replaced the ball joints, new tires, fixed the heat, (turns out the fuse was completely fried) and the door doesn't squeak/sag when you open it anymore.

Next step is to get the car aligned and then convert the AC to R134. Should be fun. But for now, she's really happy to not leak oil EVERYWHERE.

 

She is lucky to have a good bro.

 

Thanks man. It's was her first car so she doesn't want to get rid of it. I can understand that. It gives me something to work on. Haha.

Question for everyone with the pop-up head lights, how often do you guys usually have to replace that motor? I just changed both of them last year, and now the driver side doesn't work. I was just told this and haven't had a chance to look at it. Don't know if this is a common thing to go out or not.

Thanks for all the help guys.

EDIT: She has acrylic t-tops, and would like to have them refinished. Out of all the things that was wrong with the car, they never leaked. She is afraid of redoing them for fear of making them leak. What would be a good way to redo them to like new condition. I'll snap a picture of them to show the sun damage for you, maybe I can just wet sand and then re-tint?

 

Headlight motors should last several years. Were they replaced with a salvage yard set? If so, you don't need to replace them. Rebuilding the headlight motors with a brass or steel gear set is stupid easy. Cheaper than a new motor too. Check ebay, and I think Hawk's thirdgen has them as well.

 

Well, that all depends on how many of the screws snap when you go to take the motor apart to service it...

Generally, it's not the gears themselves that go bad, it's the plastic pellets in between the gears and the metal shaft that turn to powder and disconnect the motor from the actuator arm. Once the gears come out, pop in a couple of 3/8" ball bearings and never worry about the motors again.

:edit: Oh, and:
1. The valve covers come OFF to remove the intake manifold. Which is why there are valve cover gaskets in the intake manifold gasket set. Requires removal of the ignition coil bracket and EGR stuff on the passenger's side. Wiper motor will give a fight on the driver's side. Don't break the bolts on the exhaust manifold to EGR and ignition coil bracket!
2. You do NOT need to remove the distributor to remove the manifold, just lift it up until the bolts are free and pull towards the front of the engine.
3. I have not figured out how it could have taken so long... First time I pulled the one on my 2.8 I think I had it off in less than an hour, maybe 2 at the most...

 

It was getting to the point at one time where it would have been easier to install velcro on my intake manifold. I was actually able to do them in about 3 hours on a cold engine. Since I have removed the TPI system, I can have it done now in about 2 hours. Good luck with your project

 

I figured they should have lasted more than a year. Pretty sure they still had the original motors in them when I replaced it. We bought the new ones at AutoZone. I'll look into buying a gear set, and look up how to replace it.

Didn't snap a single screw, although, I did ALMOST drop a tiny screw where the push rods are at. Glad I didn't do that.

When I take the motor apart, i'll look for the bearings and replace them too.

Good thing we removed the distributor. The gasket was hard as a rock. When we were removing it, it just broke apart on us. Didn't break any bolts and i'm pretty sure nothing leaks now. I can concentrate on restoring it. First things first, I have to remove the rust. Just going to sand it down and spray it to make it look decent until I can wet sand everything and paint it all completely.

You and Maverick must be really good at taking off the whole manifold in under 2 hours. Haha. I really don't care about the length of time, as long as it's all done properly.

Thanks everyone for the insight.

Here's a picture of the T-Tops that my sister just took.



Going to start wetsanding with 400 grit, then 600, 1000, 1500, and end with 2000. Then you polish it with Meguiars Ultimate Compound followed by Meguiars PlastX. What do you guys think? I'll post pictures of everything that in case you guys buy something and want to restore the T-tops.

 

No, not the motor bearings... The bearings I described replace the plastic pellets in between the nylon gear and the metal shaft. Shouldn't be more than a couple bucks for 6 ***** (3 per motor). The motor bearings are TINY little things, 5 in a cage, at the top of the motor housing, where the shaft protrudes from the motor can for the manual "emergency" ****.
For those doubting... I ended up replacing the plastic pellets in both headlight motors with a set of 3 ball bearings in 2004 (2 went into one motor and one in another). When I took the motors apart again a few years later (noise due to lack of lube), the gears were fine and so were the bearings. I've heard that the gears get chewed up and that is why they make machined bronze ones, but I've never had that happen and have never seen such in 6-8 motors I've seen apart. Oh, and I use chassis grease, out of a tub, to lube the bearings and bushings in the motor housing (bearing in the motor can, bushing at the bottom end of the motor shaft, bushing in the side motor plate and in the housing for the actuator shaft).

 

Your sister will have a blast driving that V6. I own a '92 with the same and a manual transmission. Funnest car I've ever owned and easy on gas (or it would be if I could ever keep my foot off the throttle). Really a thrill cranking it around curves. BTW, could I adopt you as my brother and have you work on my Firebird? ha ha

 

Went out yesterday and opened the hood. I could hear/feel something in the motor turning, but it wasn't raising up. I'm going to remove it and rebuild it today.

Oh I know. She's had the car since she was 16. I remember her driving me to middle school in it and I thought I was the coolest kid on the block. She doesn't want to get rid of it since it's her first car and holds sentimental value. The only option is to restore it.

You could adopt me as a brother. I guess i'm cheap labor, since whenever I do something that improves the car, she makes brownies. Haha. That and you don't live far from me.

 

Alright everyone, it's time for another update and more questions! I know you guys get so excited to hear and answer them.

So, for the past few days, my sister said the car is slowly overheating. I know it's nothing in the cooling system, since we've replaced everything in it. I let the car heat up, and it turns out the fan wasn't kicking on. Replaced the fan relay, and the fan motor. Still not working. I pulled out my trusty multimeter, and tested power to the relay itself. Got about 12.6 Volts. Tested the fuse for the fan, fuse was perfectly fine. Tested that the relay was getting receiving power from the computer, and it was. Bypassed the fan relay with a copper wire (touched the Red wire and the Black with Red stripe together) and the fan started turning. This whole thing has be stumped. Going to go out in a few minutes and replace the coolant temperature sensor. Needs to be replaced anyway. Do you guys have any thoughts on this problem?

I got home from work sometime last week, and my sister had went out and bought a new head light motor for the driver side. Replaced that on Wednesday, and both were working just fine. Was pulling the car out of the driveway last night and had to turn the lights on, and now for some reason the passenger motor went out. I told her not to buy a new one, i'm going to try and rebuild this one. Where exactly can I buy new bearings and/or gears? I told my dad about it and he said he has never heard of a rebuild kit for the motors.

As for the paint and t-tops, I started on wet sanding the paint. The hood seems it's going to give me the most problems. The sand paper keeps catching on something. I don't want to mess up the hood, or scratch up the metal, so that's going to be the last thing that I do. Otherwise, everything is going good. Since you guys have never seen the car, TODAY is the day i'll take pictures of EVERYTHING. I feel you guys need to see it, since you've helped so much with the car.

 

If you know how to pull codes, set the ECM up as so. Don't look at the SES light, but listen for the fan running. If it's not running, check for 12V on the brown wire at the relay (comes from the FAN fuse), and check for ECM ground by using a test light. Connect the clip end of the test light to a power source (battery) and use the probe on the green wire at the relay connector. If the light doesn't light, your ECM isn't providing the ground for the relay.

As for the headlight motor, first turn the lights on and note if the motor is turning or not. If it's turning and not raising the light, that's one thing, if it's not turning, that's another.

 

I just have to say I feel your pain. I went through the exact same thing a year ago. Replaced everything you did. Ended up buying a nice time delay toggle switch to wire in. So that after 5 minuets the fan automatically comes on if in auto. Or in manual I can either turn it full On or Off.

The delay switch was just because I would hate to forget about turning the damm thing on.

Keep us up to date on the fan situation, as I would love to know why mine did what it did.

 

check the temp sensor in the drivers side cyl head that is what turns the fan on and off

when the sensor gets to the right temp it grounds the relay and turns the fan on , alot of times the connector on the sensor gets dirty or the sensor goes bad.

simple test is to unplug the sensor connector ( single wire) and ground that wire out and see if the fan comes on

 

I don't know how to run codes. I have a SCT tuner. It reads codes and stuff, but I don't know if it'll work since it's for my Mustang and not this car. Not sure what you mean by 'test light'. I'll google it and see what I can find. I already checked the brown wire, and got 12V, and by passed the relay, so I don't think it's a grounding problem.

For the headlight motor, it turns out it just needed some WD-40. Sprayed on a few things, and works like new.

I'll definitely keep you up to date on the fan situation. I've been on the phone with my dad while he's on vacation, and he's been running me through everything. He's a very skilled when it comes to cars, so he's going to take a look at it when he gets back. He texted me and said we are going to jimmy rig it somehow and you won't be able to tell the difference between factory and what he's going to do. The fan won't be running constantly either.

I'll look into the temperature sensor. I didn't realize that this car had two. Just replaced the one that's directly under the throttle body. I'll check that tomorrow while i'm finishing up for the weekend.

Oh, and pictures. Would have taken them today, but it was raining the majority of the day. Tomorrow for sure.

 

He happens to be wrong... On 85-89 models, there are 3 temp units. Only one runs to the ECM, the one under the throttle body, which you already replaced. The only other one on a 90-92 car is for the dash gauge. Replacing that isn't going to get you anywhere with the fan problem. The third one on the older models is a redundant fan switch which was deleted in 90.

You need to get a test light and make sure that the ECM is capable of grounding the fan relay.

The diagnostic connector is the 12-pin connector by the fuse panel. There will be 2 terminals right next to each other in one row (top or bottom, not left and right) in one of the corners (I think the 90-92 ALDL is upside down from mine, but it's been a while since I've seen it so I can't be sure). Put a wire into both terminals and turn the key to the RUN position WITHOUT starting the engine. The SES light SHOULD flash, the IAC should start ticking (it's going to the "home" position) and the fan SHOULD turn on.

:edit: Or, even more simply, if the car has air conditioning, there will be a switch in one of the A/C lines running down the passenger's side frame rail, close to the air cleaner. Unplug it with the ignition on and/or the engine running. If the fan doesn't turn on, then you again need to make sure that the ECM is capable of turning on the fan relay through the green wire.

 

I will run that test tomorrow. Would be pretty awesome if I could get this thing working before my dad takes it away next Sunday. (With the help of you guys, of course.)

The car doesn't have A/C. We're planning on converting it to R134 in the very near future.