I have the chance to buy a complete tpi setup from this dude for $300.00. I have a 91 formula ws6 305 tbi. I really want to convert it to tpi but i don't want the MAF system. Does anybody know how much extra work would be involved in turning a MAF into a MAP. And the different parts that i would need. I really hate to put an 87 tpi setup on my 91 car but for 300 bucks i think it is well worth it. I tried ebay but good luck finding a 90-92 speed density system. Can anyone give me some comments on this.

 

can I ask why you don't want to go MAF?

 

Well from what I hear from other owners of tpi's is that the MAF system doesn't deal well with high speeds of on engines with mods on them. I plan on putting lots of work into this engine and I want to start off right thats why im thinking the MAP system would be better. Do you not agree.

 

Well from what I hear from other owners of tpi's is that the MAF system doesn't deal well with high speeds of on engines with mods on them. I plan on putting lots of work into this engine and I want to start off right thats why im thinking the MAP system would be better. Do you not agree.

 

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/ecm_swap_730/

great choice to not dick around with the MAF,
but be fully prepared to do your own chip burning to tune it.

 

Well that is what I thoght your response would be. And the reason I asked the question.

Here is the long and short of it. I, along with several other guys are running MAF systems into the low 11s and 10s with absolutely no problems.

The people that say they can't flow well and are restrictive etc are running in the high 12 to 15s through the 1/4. I guess it boils down to who you want to take advice from. Someone who is running well weekend after weekend, and enjoying their car on the street too boot, or people who just talk a good talk and never put up any decent numbers.

Please don't think I am being ignorant towards you. I'm just sick of people being misinformated here and spending money when its not necessary. And then having tuning nightmares on top that the normal problems, ie results 350+ engine running 13s-15s or funnier yet 400+ engines running 12s.

I'm sure I will have the SD tuners all over me again. I just wanted to give you a more informed overview of the options.

You can see my setup in detail on the webpage in my sig. It sounds like you are going to be trying to put a VERY stout engine together. I would be happy to offer any help I can. Good luck.

 

I would love to know 305sbc what you mean by dick around with MAF?

 

Point at hand: Your link to the site that offers the information to switch over................

The first test of the season was run at Cecil County Dragway on March 4, 2000. The 7 runs were recorded as:
1 (MAP) 13.098@105 (let car shift to OD)
2 (MAP) 13.095@105 (let car shift to OD)
3 (MAF) 12.941@105 (kept car in 3rd to 5600rpm)
4 (MAF) 13.071@103 (let car shift to OD)
5 (MAF) 12.927@106 (kept car in 3rd to 5800rpm)
6 (MAP) 13.063@105 (kept car in 3rd to 5800rpm)
7 (MAP) 13.050@105 (kept car in 3rd to 5600rpm)


*note: all the runs had 60' times between 1.812 and 1.860 and so I feel are warranted for comparison..


End result is that the freakin MAF outdid the SD in every run.....so again please tell me why he should go through the pains of switching to SD and wasting his entire summer tuning.....Because one ring leader says to switch over.......Hank4me seems a little smarter than that......

It just cracks me up

 

Hawk4Me, I'm running MAF and after seeing some of MAF guys doing EXACTLY what ski_dwn_it said I tossed aside any thoughts of the SD swap.

I'm gonna hit low 12s if I have to sell my soul to the devil!!

 

Thx for the replys im just trying to start off right and I wasn't completely informed about the MAF's and MAP's. It just seems to me that something newer would most likely be better. If you guys are running 10's and 11's with MAF's then apparently they are not all that bad now are they. From doing a little research today it appears to me the only difference between the MAF and MAP is the way the ECM receives it's instructions. What about this porting the MAF that everyone seems to be talking about, is it good to do and how much does it run. I don't have the $5,000 bucks a month to do whatever i want to like buying a new engine or buying fully port matched cylinder heads and intakes. I mean i need to start off first I think the best start would be to Upgrade from tbi to tpi. So i believe i have stated my peice. Now if only i can find someone to help me install my tpi system without charging me $550.00, it would really help things go better.

 

Halk,

You can port your own maf with a hack-saw blade and about an hours worth of you time. I pulled the screens out with a pair of pliers, then masked off the tube in the middle so no crud could get into the wires, then CAREFULLY sawed the find out as flush to the bottom as I could. Its pretty straight forward, but you have to be VERY careful, one slip and you just bought a new MAF.

What is your setup going to be? You may not even need to go that far...

 

Well i plan on getting performer rpm heads and put in an lt1 cam, then i will go with slp long tube headers with slp cat back exhaust. Then maybe i will do more tuning to the tpi like bigger Throttle body and larger runners. I would also like to convert from an auto to a 6 speed. But that is just a dream right now I have to find money which is hard to do on around 30K a year. With the setup i have planned what do you think my hp's should look like? I figure somewhere around 290-320 hp i hope. My goal is 300 Hp out of my 305. Any suggestions on getting there would be helpful to.

 

Pulling the screens out of a stock MAF would be enough air to feed a 305 all it will ever need. I do think putting a 6-speed in your car would be the best thing you could do to make your car a blast, especially with 300hp.

 

Although this could be discussed on the DIY Prom board...I will comment here...I have read EVERY message on this (including the 250-odd post that Ski started a month or so ago) and I firmly conclude that Ski is right so far...the results prove it!

I have a MAF and am really impressed and heartened by Ski's experience and combo...

I also had thought about someday switching to SD, until I saw the exact results Ski came up with.

My 406 isn't exactly a stock 350 and I want the potential of high 11's with this combo...I believe I can make it happen with my 48mm TB (a topic for another thread) and my MAF setup...

Hopefully I will have proof by the end of the summer...

Keep the MAF...it will work for you and when you finish with it, then move on to SD if the need arises.

HTH,

 

Also, the key is when you mod the MAF in terms of screens/flow, to correct the MAF tables accordingly...

Hey Ski...you want to explain EXACTLY what you did to your MAF tables to compensate for no screens/fins...and also is this with a BOSCH maf or the WELLS maf?

Thanks...

 

Well that's easy, first though do me a favor please.

Assuming you're running naturally aspirated....

Hook a vacuum guage up to your plenum so as you can get an accurate pressure reading while you're making a pass.
In 2nd gear at WOT driving down the road take note of the vacuum reading when you're at 6000 RPM with your 406 engine.
Please post the result of this vacuum reading here and I'll be happy to explain exactly what I meant for you.

 

305,

Those are pretty presumptuous words from you.

First the fact that I don't shift at 6000 RPM to turn those times is #1. But rather 5300 RPM.

2. A 406 with in 70* air and with 100% efficiency and running at 6500RPM can only knock down 763 CFM of air.

Let me ask what can a ported MAF run?????? Ahhhhhh 750 CFM....do you really think that my engine is 100% efficient? No I don't think so, maybe a max of 90%...so that leaves me at 686.7 CFM max. Now understand that I am 1000 RPM away from that! So I am most likely in the high 500 CFM range....

The results we are getting speak for themselves.........

Now I am going to make an assumption, that you are running a 305 CI engine, and let me guess.....you need the SD to run as good as you are, right. Then what kinds of times you laying down, since we are talking all out WOT running. Everyone would love to hear.

And oh here I just did some calculating for you, this is what a 305 is knocking down....

Total airflow requirement:
573.64 cfm - 43.1 pounds of air.

Total air per cylinder:
71.7 cfm

Requiring 2.93 pounds of fuel or 0.49 gallons per minute for a 14.7 A/F ratio.

Requiring 3.37 pounds of fuel or 0.56 gallons per minute for a 12.8 A/F ratio.

I think in the end here, results speak MUCH louder than peoples opinions.

What do you think my car would do in NJ where they have a minus DA somedays? I have yet to run my car in a < 1500 DA. By the end of the season, you will see a 10 sec run.....from a N/A SR full trim car.

 

88TPI406GTA....

I am still running the stock MAF meter that came in the car, its just gutted......

As for the MAF tables they are all exactly the way they came from in the 6e bin.

There are however some major changes elsewhere, the area I used to get the tune on primarily is the injectors constants. I used to get all my BLMs to 127-131 across the boards. Throttle response is about as good as I can imagine. I could bounce your head off the head rests at will even if you knew I was going to try. There is no way for you to keep it off there, and that is blipping the throttle ~1/4. With street tires on it and the converter locked at 48MPH+ it squacks the tires when you do that. Since I got my romulator, I have tried last saturday locking the BLMs at 128 and watching my AFR at cruise. Its always 14.7 +/- .3 all the way through the throttle till PE kicks in. This is driving from about 400 ft elevation to about 2500 ft through the windy mountains of PA. Going to my parents from my house about a 20 mile trip, you travel through that kind of elevation change in about 10 minutes, so its a good area to get a taste of all the load cells.

I used this method with my 350 as well, and don't see any reason to touch the MAF tables to date. If someone want to tell me that there is a difference between 127 to 128 or 131 to 128, then I will have to take your word for it, but I doubt there is any difference. My TPS is set at 60% throttle and I can get all the way there and still be under the 255g/sec, so I have all the resolution I need. Once PE kicks in I use the PE % AFR vs RPM to adjust for fuel.

I look at it like this. 90% of my driving on the street is done at 60% or less driving. Anyone who would drive in the car or have a similiar setup would agree that your freakin nut to go anywhere beyond there and if you do your going 100+ MPH in which case I would have to say that you are nuts. Bottom line is if you think you need more resolution at 100+ MPH, your resolution is not needed in the car, but more like your head.

I will bet you anything that if you went on a ride with my though the corners offered in this area through the mountains, at 1/4 throttle, and had it where there was no way I could apply any more throttle, you would be screaming to let you out of the car. In the end people have to realize the more power you make, the less you have to apply the gas to go down the and have the the same kind of power output. Bigger cube setups are putting out 400+ ft/lbs of torque at 2000 RPM...any more throttle and the cars blow the tires off. Look at my takout with slicks, and pulling 1.528 60' times still spinning on a fully prepped track and pure slicks. How far do you think I would go with street tires taking out at 1/2 throttle?

Its all relative. The more power you have the less throttle needed to achieve spirited street driving, therefore you don't need the 80% throttle opening and resolution. On a lesser engine you need to be at 80% throttle and by then your envoking PE and the car is not paying attention to MAF or O2 reading anyways. But rather just running a set of values off a table.

It doesn't get any simpler than that. Why make it more difficult than it needs to be. Understand this is not a bash against SD saying one is better than the other. Just a truthful explination from someone that has gone from fully stock setup and tuning to a pretty modified 350 with AFR/SR/219 cam and tuning (from which that thing never reached 255 g/sec below 60% throttle) and now a full blown heavily modded engine that make and feels 10X stronger than the 350 felt like. LIke I said many times, I am here to help people not steer them down a wrong or misleading path. I am not a lone ranger in the sence of being the only MAF 450+hprunning car around, you just need to look around. I posted some other results in a post showing several MAF cars running in the 11 with mail order chips and MAF units. Some of which are 350/SR/219 cars! But I am probably one of the few people that will speak out against the grain and offer an opinion from the other side. An opinion that is DOING what I say I am rather than saying what should happen via a test bench etc. Doing it and saying it my friends two totally different things.

 

Here's an important fact for everybody to take note of:

It's A LOT easier to make a 91 TBI car into SD TPI than MAF TPI.


That alone justfies running SD. Not to mention what if the MAF is bad or goes bad. There's money on top of time down the drain.


Not that there is anything wrong with MAF. But when SD is cheaper and easier, well, why would you want to run MAF?

 

Another side note is that MAP does require more intervention than MAF, so if you're making big changes, you should be prepaired to start burning proms as it doesnt' adjust to the engine as dynamically as MAF.

 

If you have MAF on your car stock (like I do) then I don't really want to switch...until I have to or I perceive the MAF to be a limitation.

As for Hawk4Me, I would probably say that since you have a SD setup now, just go ahead and find a SD setup from the junkyard...the SD ECM can be found in V6 cars (there is a list around Thirdgen somewhere) and repin the harness...but other than that, almost all of your sensors will be re-used, right?

Ed, did you actually do the switch from TBI SD to TPI SD?

 

I was under the inpression that hawk4me had an 87 setup that he wanted to put on the car, but was worried about the MAF system, hence he wanted to go to SD, instead. The car I believe was a 90or 91 with a TBI on it currently. He can get the entire stock 87 intake/MAF system for 300 beans.

Its been a while since I read the post, but I think if memory serves me correctly, that was the situation.

In which case, I would stick with the MAF, since it will take to the changes better and since it sounds like he is just getting his feet wet with the EFI systems it won't be as much of a headache or require as much accuracy as SD will with the tune off the bat.

If the MAF system is bad, ie bad sensor....go to SD then for the cheaper alternative. Otherwise I think your fine and well below the systems requirements, especially with the Stock tune port systems capping off the engine.

 

MAFs Fueling is much "Easier" because for the most part you dont even have to touch part throttle.

SD's fueling is pretty invasive, you have to get into every cell of the map if you can't get it tight with battery corrections or injector constants. beyond that (and im experienced with both) the rest of the tuning is fairly similar as only timing, throttle followers, tcc (for auto) and such remain.


I will say that if you start with an 85 car and go through all the ECM swaps, the easiest "Swap" is to the 730.

 

re-reading the first post


he is getting off of a TBI car, and into a TPI car, for that scenerio wiring would be easier with 730, but tuning would be easier with 165.


You've got enough info hawk I guess it would come down to a judgement call.

 

'difficulty' in tuning is kind of subjective.

With SD everything is intuitive. If you know how an engine works, then VE and SA vs. RPM vs. MAP is gravy.

I'll admit i don't know much about tuning MAF, but thats almost my point. I've never seen a good description of what is really going on in the scalar tables, or an explanation on setting spark advance vs. airflow correctly. If someone has a link to such a resource i'll gladly put my foot in my mouth here though. I wish i did understand MAF better, i have a MAF friend i need to do some chip work for, but i see him so infrequently i never get a chance to tinker and learn.

Of course all of that is part throttle fuel stuff. WOT is going to be the same either way. PE vs. RPM. WOT spark, SD still gets the nod as being easier since you don't need to know airflow to calibrate your advance.


JMHO, but since MAF guys want to knock SD, figure it's only fair to give the other side of the story. Just as easy to see it all the other way.

Hmmm, i wonder why/how this thread got closed the first time. Probably because debating the ease of tuning SD vs. MAP doesn't relate much to his initial question. Upon further review, it was ski who turned it into a pissing match because he didn't even realize that a TBI car is a SD EFI car and thus he only needs a cheap common 730 ECM and connectors to be in business with SD TPI. Instead he had to ride the MAF is repressed angle. Promoting an agenda vs. giving sound advice.

 

Yet another grand example of a mod, singling out a specific person to rip on their advice.

Real professional.

Probably because debating the ease of tuning SD vs. MAP doesn't relate much to his initial question.:

Hmmm what does this mean then? Does anybody know how much extra work would be involved in turning a MAF into a MAP.

Perhaps you should concentrate on modding rather than trying prove me wrong all the time. Because your lousy at the latter mentioned.

Jeeper you guys really have a hardon for proving me wrong all the time.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Maher

"JMHO, but since MAF guys want to knock SD, figure it's only fair to give the other side of the story. Just as easy to see it all the other way."

Gee Ed, after my time here on Thirdgen, I have neither knocked SD nor seen SD be repressed at all...Is that what you think? That SD is not the "preferred and recommended" setup as opposed to MAF? I somehow have gotten the impression from all the discussion at Thirdgen that MAF was a limitation until Ski provided proof that it isn't (unless you are making more than 440 rwhp).

I just want to know the facts...not promote an agenda...Education/knowledge are good things...at least now I know that I am not yet limited by MAF to make 425-450 flywheel HP. Does that make me part of the MAF "gang"?

I hope you don't think that I too am promoting an agenda by trying to look at both sides here...Taking an objective stance is important too.

 

MAFs spark advance tables aren't based on air flow directly, they are based on LV8 wich is basically a variable for calculated engine "load" (similar to a map value), its always been unclear the EXACTS Of what determins lv8 but it deffinatly Includes MAF rates, and likely TPS readings thrown against RPM to create the table.

I locked the thread, probably a bit trigger happy. I did it due to the fact that it was getting long and heated when I at the time felt questions were answered, i can however agree its remaining a good source of information, thus unlocked.


My bad

 

Also as another side note the starter of the thread didn't begin with interest in tuning, which is why remaining with MAF would do him best assuming a modified engine.

SD would almost certainly require tuning

 

What does that mean to me? Well, i'd look at what he had. In this case a 90 TBI car. I'd then point out (as i have) that he doesn't have to do anything to convert his 'MAF' TPI system to SD. The hardware (as in intake / sensors) are all there, including a MAP from his TBI set-up. As for wiring, i'd suggest he repin his TBI harness and sell the MAF harness for 3x what a 730 ECM and connectors will cost.


I don't have a hard on for proving *you* wrong. Actually i was responding more to tpi_iroc and his SD is the easier wiring swap, but MAF is easier to tune bit, since 'easier to tune' is very subjective. And i gave clear examples of why i think SD is easier to tune. I notice you didn't actually address that point though.

AAMOF, since you only tune by injector constant i think you prove my point that tuning MAF is indeed black magic. Just because you have managed to get near perfect BLMs only through IC doens't mean everyone else does.


The only singling out i did was because the original poster only asked about MAF stuff after you beat him up like a jehovah's witness on saturday afternoon about MAF when the poor guy already has the SD bible and church thing going on. Which was good only for starting a pissing contest over MAF vs. SD, a debate with no point. Both systems are good, but in this guy's case he's 95% of the way to SD and faces a helluva lot of work to run MAF. I recommend against any newbies attempting to swap harnesses due to the fact that it inevitably leads to a "help my car won't start / run post", which leaves me feeling bad for the guy because the answer is go back and triple check and even redo everything you just did.


That is what *i* call good modding. Understanding the problem and passing on sound information.


But i digress. And i think this thread has once again more than served it's purpose. I only wanted to point out that the SD swap was the easy and safest route for him to take. Even tpi_iroc has said as much, as will anyone else who knows the differences between EFI systems and converting between them. As for the tuning thing, again that's totally subjective, which leads to pointless and endless debates.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 88TPI406GTA

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed Maher

"JMHO, but since MAF guys want to knock SD, figure it's only fair to give the other side of the story. Just as easy to see it all the other way."

Gee Ed, after my time here on Thirdgen, I have neither knocked SD nor seen SD be repressed at all...Is that what you think? That SD is not the "preferred and recommended" setup as opposed to MAF? I somehow have gotten the impression from all the discussion at Thirdgen that MAF was a limitation until Ski provided proof that it isn't (unless you are making more than 440 rwhp).

I just want to know the facts...not promote an agenda...Education/knowledge are good things...at least now I know that I am not yet limited by MAF to make 425-450 flywheel HP. Does that make me part of the MAF "gang"?

I hope you don't think that I too am promoting an agenda by trying to look at both sides here...Taking an objective stance is important too.

MAF guys are/were knocking SD in this thread with the SD is harder to tune angle. And ski isn't the first MAF guy to go that fast. Hell, he isn't even the first to run his combo, he copied it bolt for bolt from his friend who runs just as fast with the 'junk' 85 ECm and an off the shelf chip.

Sorry if some MAF guys never bothered to realize that people have been going fast with it since the 80s. I can rememeber when MAF was THE set-up to have, and SD was all black magic that you tweaked with FP, resistors and pots on sensors to trick the ECM into doing what you wanted. But once PROM burning came up, SD was SO MUCH more intuitive that a lot of us jumped right on board. MAF on the other hand turns out to be mostly voo doo once you're in the PROM. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you're in left field and someone turned out the lights.


Like i said, which is easier to tune is subjective. For me, intuiitive = easy. LV8 = blackbox = ???.

 

That uncertainty is what irks me. Like i said, i have a MAF buddy i'm supposed to help tune his car. One of the biggest questions i have is how to deal with the spark tables. I've never had his car on a scan tool so i have no idea what LV8 looks like across the powerband. And thus it's hard to know what LV8 the higher load spark values should start decreasing at, and what LV8 would represent the 100kPa column, etc. I think of SA just like a vacuum advance dizzy. Intuitive. Load calculation is not intuitive since it isn't calibrated to a meaningful number like vacuum.

As for fuel, PE vs RPM only. I'm not even going to think about scalar tables. As apparently most folks do including the 'gurus'

 

You may be talking about me with the 1st sentence

Actually I didn't start learning about the MAF setup until I bought my GTA 2.5 years ago...and I STILL think SD is black magic Just kidding...

Actually look at these threads and see what I am talking about:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...eferrerid=9767

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...eferrerid=9767

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...eferrerid=9767

After reading these threads with responses by respected Thirdgen members, can you see why I thought MAF sucked? At least until I saw Ski's results...

 

My comment about easier tuning wans't in regards to prom, sorry that was misleading, it was in regards to the engine being TUNED, which for a new guy throwing a MAF on (more forgiveful) would make the resulting running tune closer.


When it comes to prom tuning SD is a dream compared to MAF, one huge reason is the SA table for example (and obivously the always favored VE table). The SA table is direct, direct rpm to direct MAP value, where with MAF once you play with the MAF scalar tables, now your spark table has changed due to the adjust in LV8 yadda yadda

 

...and one more thread with "proof" of the MAF restriction...I would have thought that maybe they could have used a gutted MAF too just for decent proof as I know that the stock MAF is restrictive...I mean chit, if GM High Tech Performance says the MAF is restrictive, should they be right? Gaining 95 HP from swapping to SD?


https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=115686

My only point here is to prove that the general idea has been that MAF is a bad deal compared to SD...and that isn't the case now, but before Ski had his proof, no one else did...

 

Ed,

You state: "I don't have a hard on for proving *you* wrong. Actually i was responding more to tpi_iroc and his SD is the easier wiring swap, but MAF is easier to tune bit, since 'easier to tune' is very subjective. And i gave clear examples of why i think SD is easier to tune. I notice you didn't actually address that point though. "

Give me a break. If you want to call me out that is perfectly fine, as you clearly did when you said ski-dwn_it: is who turned it into a pissing match because he didn't even realize that a TBI car is a SD EFI car and thus he only needs a cheap common 730 ECM and connectors to be in business with SD TPI. Instead he had to ride the MAF is repressed angle. Promoting an agenda vs. giving sound advice.

Look if you want to say you were just replying to tpi-roc's statements that is fine, but don't say something then back out after you do. Its really quite cowarding.

Anyways, you also mention that I gave hawk4me a hard time, beat him up and I was the one that brought up MAF, when in his first statement he said, "he really did not want to have the MAF system". All I did was politely ask him why he did not want MAF. His response was exactly what I expected it would be:[/b] "Well from what I hear from other owners of tpi's is that the MAF system doesn't deal well with high speeds of on engines with mods on them."[/b]

Now let me ask you Ed, what post were you reading? And does that sound like a gentlemen with all the card infront of him? Or exactly what I have been saying, "That people have a VERY misinformed opinion of MAF system." I was simply giving him the other side of the story. Since clearly he was not fully informed. Or do you consider that bad information?

Com'on Ed you admit you don't know how to tune MAF systems, and yet you say one is better than the other. Well I have tuned everything from a 427 to a stock 350 with about every intake there is both SD and MAF systems, and I will take MAF anyday over the "knit picky" SD system anyday. Sure I am not saying that SD doesn't have its advantaged, but for a guy just starting out as HAwk appeared to be, which is fine (we all have to start somewhere), he would clearly be better off with the MAF system, since its already with the 300 dollar intake he has. That is what I based my opinion on. Not that I did not understand that the swap to SD would be easier as you made it out to be. I am basing my opinion on past experience and the fact that he is just starting out.

Now you bring up my method of tuning.....well until you have better results than I do, I would tread very lightly, you will soon look really silly if you start taking that path.

As you can see that once again, when the post was opened I simply responded to general public with my opinion on Hawks options, I did NOT try to start a pissing match as you did in the very next post after my general post. So if this gets locked again, guess who is to blame, as you can't leave calling individuals opinion out alone.

Thanks again for the great modding.

 

Again Ski points out the unless you are waving a better than 11.14 timeslip in your hand... that you are not qualified to judge his tuning.

I have yet to see any ground breaking, myth shattering never done before results..

But than again.. I'm not waving any sub 11.15 time slips either..

 

Exactly! How can you sit there and tell me that my methods are not correct when you've never had a car that even came close to pushing the limits of a system?

And No I don't see many, if any streetable cars on this board, that are running these times, nor do I on the corvette forum or other boards that I visit. Surely there are and I am not saying that.

You guys automatically default to SD thinking that MAF is the holdup in your ET/Hp results, when really you should be looking elsewhere.

Read some of the posts that 88TPI posted. Its almost laughable. But really sad, since there are people out there that don't know any better.

What is it you guys are sooooo afraid of with MAF? Golly, as I said before, if I switched over to SD tomorrow and I found it was better in any way, I would be the first to admit its advantaged. If I picked up 30 hp out of the gate, after my MAF setup was maxed to the hilt, then I would be the first one here with the results. That is what this is about. Helping others learn from your mistakes and your triumphs.

I am done arguing this point with you mods, you guys will never say that your wrong in your past preaching and that is what eats you up about my postings. They were put here as not a punch in your face, but to let others know that, "Here is a first hand account of a setup that works, and works well." The ones that have taken note, and appreciate the effort I put forth, will profit, the ones like yourselves that see it as an attack, will undoubtably stumble around the track for the next several years wondering why you aren't doing as well." Its really not any concern of mine what so ever. But the please don' ruin it for the people that want to learn.

As I said before, if you don't understand or believe in something, doesn't give you the right to say that we are all wrong for trying to see what the max limit is with the systems, or working with what we do have, and sharing information among one another.

Thanks.

 

Hawk4Me, I bet you are getting more than you ever expeect.

However, in ALL the discusion above, I cannot see if the ECM, Memcal and MAF sensor are included? Also, what injectors are you going to use? Are they included?

If an ECM, sensors, memcals (and even injectors) are included, I'd use whatever you get as the CHEAPEST alternative. As for performance, your initial mods that you plan are quite mild in my opinion and with the proper injector selection, you initially run a stock memcal, whether it's a SD or MAF system.

Ultimately, you may want to consider eprom tuning as ALL systems even on a bone stock engine can get a noticeable increase in performance, driveability and gas mileage.

Have fun.

 

PS: This is my first post in many weeks. I have been offered the position of Moderator and I decided to accept it. I didn't become active until I posted.

Initially, I wasn't going to be bothered anymore. But I couldn't see anyone asking Hawk the obvious question that should have been asked. So I had to.

Also, there are EDITS on my posts, because I am a bad typist with ugly hairy legs. I am not a good secretary.

 

Told you I'm a bad typist.

 

Welcome to the dark side glenn

 

I always thought Jedi. Where's my pa? He'll straighten me out.

 

ski, arguing with you is like arguing with a rock. You just don't get it at all, you make no attempt to understand what the other side is saying. You just hear the parts you want, imagine them out of context and go on a rampage.

As for doing as well as you, i have one last point to make. It's obvious to some people why you're hanging out with us slow folks. Probably has to do with you copied your combo from your best friend, so all the corvette forim guys don't give you much respect since they know they could drop some coin and do the same thing too. Since noone here knows your friend it's easier to take all the credit. My favorite part is how an off the shelf chip in the same combo runs the same times as you. Wow, you are one helluva tuner. Please tell me more oh guru

As for tuning a 'maxed out' MAF computer, people have been doing that for years (i guess GNs just starting running 9s with stock ECMs yesterday right), and can even do it over the phone as well as you. What's your point.

Tell you what. If i ever build a solid roller 406 that doesn't run 10s, you can feel free to bust my stones all you want. Until then you're not hurting my feelings much just because you know how to throw around money and some of us only get to tune on what we have around. Results can be relative you know. So far everything i have tweaked has gone faster and been more driveable, and thats good enough for me.

In closing, i don't see much true MAF bashing out there. Few people that know anything are going to say MAF is a bad system. It has drawbacks though, whether you want to admit them or not.
In the context of this post though, a MAF swap makes no sense. If i had a MAF car, i would stick with MAF, right up until the MAF died. At that point a swap to SD is more cost effective so of course i would take that route.

 

ski, arguing with you is like arguing with a rock. You just don't get it at all, you make no attempt to understand what the other side is saying. You just hear the parts you want, imagine them out of context and go on a rampage.


I think your not reading my posts honestly now. what did I say I would do when I switch over to SD and if their are gains? Hello. If you want me to spell it out for you any clearer, or type less in each post, I will. Holy beans.

Yeah I don't get any respect from the corvette guys...OK. Perhaps you should venture on over there and hang out a little, I think you will realize once again you stuck your foot in your mount with spouting off about abstract stuff that doesn't belong here. Here is one example of a website that is kept up by beach bum a very respected West Coast drag racer. He asked me to post my setup, as well as Corky too. Here is the site....you might want to look at it perhaps you can learn something.

http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c4/bea...nSet-ups.shtml

If you take a look at my website, you will also see that I give Corky full credit for coming up with the setup. Making such a statement about not copying proven setups when attempting to build a new setup, shows your ignorance beyond even I can believe. I suppose that you recommend each person call comp cams etc and dream up their own combination, as to not be a copy-cat. Unbelievable.

There are more people than you think that appreciate my help here. Just last night I had three people talk to me at length over the phone, and encourage me to stay on this board. Hence the only reason I stay here to post. You can twist it any way you like, but at the end of the day, I am here for them not you. So don't flatter yourself.

Again read my posts several times, its obvoius that you aren't listening to what I am trying to convey.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Glenn91,

Welcome as a mod,,,,,,,,,I will try to take it easy on you

(that was 100% a joke, so its not taken by anyone else as offensive).

I appreciate your attempt glenn to get the conversation back on track with your pointing out the obvious items as you did in your first post here :cheers:

 

Thank you. I hope Hawk comes back and answers my question.

 

Yeah he probably thinks that he fell into the boxing ring with 10 Mike Tysons
LOL

 

Point being, you tune as well as a guy who never saw or touched the car let alone had WB datalogging.

Point being you didn't invent a single aspect of the combo.

Point being exactly why should any of us be impressed except for with your $$$ and ability to follow a recipe.

Show us results. Tune that mother for 10.5s. We poke and prod. We could care less how fast you are. It's how much more it seems to us that you have.

You take it all so personally when you get questioned. I'd consider it inspiration.

And like i said, the ego trip over the ET is a little trite. I've never seen anyone say you aren't doing what you're doing. There are inconsistencies like the static issue, etc.. But just saying screw it, i'm faster than you anyway doesn't accomplish much. Whether you realize it or not , that's how you come off. But for example, instead i would have had a scan tool on the car on the dyno to know PW. Then the question on whther you really added fuel or were static would be in front of you. Or even better a scope. and your track datalogging WB would have been neat too. Instead you gloat over the #. woo hoo.

Thats why i had to point out the **** about copying your friends car. It's not groundbreaking in anyway by your own admission. So why should we be impressed by that alone. Impress us with your ability to find it's limits. When you describe corky's chip you make it sound so rough. No timing, way fat, etc. That would convince me not that the combo is magic and runs that number, but that it had a lot more in it. Easy to scoff at because work and data is impressive, not magazine numbers.

 

As I said I am not arguing with you mods anymore. Its not about you. Do what you like. Lock Thread, delete posts, and tell people that MAF sucks...railroad your opinions down their throats. We all know you have all the answers.....and all the experience, as your results show it.

Keep up the good work. :Cheers:

 

In short. You're going to go faster one way or another. And we're going to say i told you so. You're getting mad because you have teams of engineers looking at your product saying goddamn we could do a lot with this.

Whether it be as simple as injectors, or SD, etc. Thats what the criticism you're so mad about is trying to get to. If you're so content as is, then who cares. You're point about tuning MAF through PE vs. RPM has been noted, no argument there. 120+ mph with 24lb injectors is indeed a neat feat but even has been proven theoretically possible as well, so again no argument there. MAF vs. MAP, depends on where you're coming from, both go fast, both are easy to tune depending on your definitions, again, no argument there. Anything i missed?