I had just gotten finished with an attempt to replace my pass side head gasket three days ago and put the engine back together in my Firebird, when I cranked it, besides the loss of power from the batt (unknown, have charged the batt), it didn't start, even after changing my oil from "peanut buttery" 60W to 5W-30. I had a little confusion when putting it back together because of firing orders and plug wire positioning on the dist cap and timing, but that has been settled. The engine cranks and the ex. manifolds get warm after a while of cranking, but the engine refuses to start. I have checked the timing repeatedly and am damn sure that it is set at the factory 10 deg BTDC, as I have checked it five or six times now, rotating the engine until the timing marks line up and putting the dist terminal in line with the rotor and putting the plug wire on that terminal and going from there. I can tell the engine is firing because the bolts on my EGR valve manifold broke whe I removed them and I cannot put the valve back in place, and the exhaust is coming out of the hole, It is only intermittent, like only one of the plugs on the pass side is firing. the terminals on the dist cap and plug wires are clean and so is the rotor terminal inside the dist. While I was doing the "repair", it rained for two days. I cleaned as much rust off of the plugs as I could, seeing as how I left the hood open to the second stop as my equipment was in the front portion of the nose, and I am wondering if I should check the module inside my dist as well for rust, because I may have left that open for a while as well and it may have gotten wet. Four of the plugs have been changed from my newer Bosh +2 plugs to the original ACDelco plugs I took out in the first place. I have retightened my valves and am sure that they are working the way they are supposed to, as today I took the valve cover on the pass side off and had a helper crank the engine while I watched the valves move. I had been contacting mechs on another site, but they were only telling me to do the same stuff I had already done over and over again. The pushrods are straight, the timing is correct, the firing order is correct, and the fuel delivery is sorta okay, as I have been having problems with that all along, (and that's in the Electronics section if you want to know the story on that), but the engine ran even with the gummy oil weight and the crummy fuel delivery. Any suggestions will be gladly appreciated. BTW-What's the best way to clean spark plugs without having a pro shop clean them?

 

replace your plugs, they're too cheap to worry about cleaning. fix the missing egr, do a search or look in your manual and set the valves and leave them a turn or so loose till it fires. recheck the wires to the plugs, make sure you have firing order right, make sure distributor is set right. also i belive the v6 uses right side front as #1, like ford does so check that out. you might have to move the distributor a bit while cranking to make it fire.

 

Sometimes I have to use some kind of starting fluid to start the engine, but I didn't use any the last time I cranked it. I still have to replace the fuel block (the part tht the fuel lines connect to on the rail) becuase i managed to strip that out during my explorations witht hat other site...

 

Today I tried it again, putting the fuel line into the fuel block as straight as I could and unsing Teflon tape. Well, it still leaks, which means I'll be taking a trip to the J/Y tomorrow. I have checked again the timing and it's dead on at 10* BTDC, as per the emisisons label. Some suggestions I have gotten are-
1. Are you sure the timing is correct?
Ans- I DID NOT remove the dist, I only switched the cables around on the cap, and I have checked the timing about ten times now, and it's dead on at 10* advance.
2. Are you getting fuel delivery?
Ans- Yes, I am getting fuel delivery. And plenty of it. I just ain't sure if my cold start valve works anymore.. I should check that when I remove the intake manifold.
3. Is the firing order correct?
Ans-Yes, it is correct. The number one cable is the one closest to the block, with the number two wire next on the firing order in a clockwise direction. I know that the number one cylinder is on the front passenger sode, like was also suggested to me.
I have tightened the head bolts on the passenger side down as far as I can with my 30" breaker bar, and they won't turn any more, so I'm sure the compression is good unless I have leaking rings. I have used both starting fluid and, running out of that, penetrating oil, down the intake passages to try tto get it to fire, but it hasn't worked. I'm almost wondering if a good old stick of TNT would do the job...

Edit: I had just realized about five minuts ago that I had the coil wire off while I was cranking the enigne before and after reconnecting the wire, the engine started to backfire again on the driver's side. If you want to know how I know that, I have two missing injector tips, on that side, that I am also going to pick up at the J/Y tomorrow, meaning the o-rings won't seal like they should. The enigne makes a loud "HISS" when it backfires, and I know it's not fuel spray because the vapor smells like exhaust fumes. It's alomost like the ACDelco plugs I put in are so gummed up with junk that they fire when they have built up enough energy to fire, and that's usually at the wrong time, but I do know that the firing order may have been messed with. I originally labeled the plug wires for the last three cylinders in the order 6-5-2, and I know that's weird. Maybe the firing order is what my problem is? I do not know if the cam has been replaced with a different one. Does the camshaft affect the firing order, or are all the camshafts set to the stock firing order? This is really starting to bug me and cost a heap of money I don't have.

 

if you used a 30" breaker bar to tighten the head bolts as tight as you could get them there's a very good chance you over tightened and damaged the gasket. there's a reason people use torque wrenches for head bolts.

 

Okay, I am going to completely change what I said earlier:
I went out a little while later, having an idea. My thought was that I should remove some of the plugs and see what was up with them. I removed the four ACDelco plugs I put in after the rainstorm (having another one right now, I should add) and put my Bosch +2's back in, after having soaked them in gas and cleaning them with a plug brush. I noticed, when removing the Delco plugs, that the ones on the driver's side were soaked with gas. I have absolutely no idea what could be causing this, but I think that it might be the cold start valve. Whatever it is is flooding the driver's side cylinders and not aloowing them to fire, and I think that may be what is causing the backfiring. I could be wrong, of course. I haven't yet gone out and bought a can of real starting fluid, and I didn't make it to the J/Y today because someone here went and took the only running car for errands before I got up. In case you are wondering, that only car is GM!

GM rules!

 

Oh, and I'm a little short on money to buy a torque wrench, or anything for that matter. I need the car so I can start working for some $$$.

 

Don't use starting fluid!!! It doesn't help a damn thing. All it tells you is "Oh look, it started. Now it stopped. What next?" Even worse, I had a friend whose brother had a 2.8 MPFI with a starting problem. He was using starting fluid for whatever reason. His motor backfired, and all the starting fluid that had puddled up in the intake exploded- and took the top of the motor off with it. I've never even touched the stuff, and never will. But with that warning aside...

Suggestions... you said you got #1 up to TDC (of compression, right? ) and lined up the rotor with a cap terminal. Then you called that cap terminal "number one", and went clockwise around the cap, following the firing order 1-2-3-4-5-6?

If so, then you put the ignition system at 0 degrees advance. Turn the distributor a little bit counter-clockwise. This will put some advance into the timing. Now, you don't have to, but if you were to re-line-up the distributor and #1 piston again, this same method would have your rotor pointing a bit "after" the #1 cap terminal.

Now if you did just aim the rotor at the #1 terminal, I bet that's the problem, because you said that your plugs are soaked with fuel... meaning there's no spark getting to them. Also, remove the gray connector from the spark coil. Turn the ignition key to "on". Put a volt meter between the pink/black wire of the connector (pin "B") and ground- you should see +12 volts, which comes from the ignition switch.

Also, have you checked fuel pressure? You need a fuel pressure gauge that can do fuel injected motors, they run about $40. If your fuel pressure's gone to hell, you won't get anything started.

When you turn the key from "off" to "run" (the position before "crank/start"), does your service engine soon light come on? If not, the fuel pump/ECM fuse at the front passenger side of the engine compartment has probably fried. That means the computer isn't powering up and your distributor is getting no signal from the ECM. Check the fuse. It could also be that if the fuse is good (and try replacing it anyway), that the connection at the positive junction block on the passenger side of the radiator has gone bad, and the whole wire isn't getting +12 like it should.

As to your question on code 54 at the electronics board; you should've posted that on the V6 forum. Or, you should've done a <a href="search.php?s="><img src="images/top_search.gif" alt="Search" border="0"></a>, you might've found this message: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=150163

Good luck! I hope all is well with the head; I bet for sure that you overtightened those bolts. Did you apply teflon sealant to the bolts? Some of them pass through water passages...

 

Wans't able to get outside to work today. It's August, and it's thunderstorming outside? Man, weird weather here in NY... Anyways, I set the balancer first after removing the dist cap and rotated the dist body so the closest terminal to where the rotor ended up is now at that position, and I'm calling that position the Number One plug terminal. Now, as far as fuel delivery goes, I have checked the fuses and they are good, even the ones under the hood. The SES light does come on when I turn the key on. I'll recheck the head bolts whe I do the intake manifold leak, as I have to get sealant for that anyways. As it comes to the leak in the fuel rail, can I patch that or do I have to get a different rail? The leak is at the fuel return fitting on the fuel block, which is removable, but since I have two damaged injectors, I'll probably go ahead and replace the whole rail if the fitting is non-repairable. I've tried putting the line in as straight and as tight as I could, and then putting Teflon tape on the fitting, but it still leaks and I REALLY can't afford a fire at this point. I'll have to go get the rail the next day when it actually stops raining for more than one hour....

 

Where's a good cheap place to get an MSD Blaster Coil, preferably the Blaster 2 or GM Blaster?

 

Yeah, see, if you lined them up, then you're at 0 degrees advance, and I've never gotten a 2.8 to start that way. Rotate the dist a bit counter clockwise- don't even yank the cap or reset #1 to TDC compression- this'll put some advance into the timing. You said you didn't remove the distributor; but how do you know you've got it at 10 degrees advance if the motor won't run? Did you put the balancer mark to the 10 degree mark and then line up the cap/rotor? Hey, wait; if you changed the head gasket, you must've removed the distributor...?

It's definately something ignition related if the driver's side plugs are soaked with gas; that side probably isn't firing when it should. By injector tips I'm guessing you mean the plastic pintle caps; they're really not drastically needed, and they usually snap anyway when you pull out injectors that have been in the motor for a long time. I take it you didn't replace the o-rings on the injectors? Re-using old o-rings almost guarantees a vacuum leak... there's a kit made by Standard, part number SK-8, that contains all the injector o-rings, for both sides (injector inlet and outlet).

I don't know about just doing the fuel block; never had to do that on my car. Bummer that you didn't just leave all the fuel lines connected- the fuel rail rotates out of the way because of the flex hoses. In the 5th picture on this page, http://www.geocities.com/tomp_3rdgen/ , you can see how I hung his fuel rail over his driver's side fender without opening a single connection. All we had to unhook was the cold start valve's tube.

Oh and make sure you get an 85-89 fuel rail; 90-92 rails don't have a provision for a cold start injector tube.

As to the MSD, cheapest place is Summit Racing, 800-230-3030 or http://www.summitracing.com . Visit this link to see how to install the 2-wire Blaster 2 into your dual-connector 4-wire remote HEI system- the 4-wire GM coil is really just a 2-wire GM coil!! https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=61358

You might also want to rebuild the distributor in case the module and/or pickup coil went out. See this for information: https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=60799

 

Read very carefully:
I set the balancer first at 10* BTDC and then lined up the nearest terminal on the dist cap to the rotor and called that terminal number one.
Okay? Got it?
Thanks for the ignition tips. I just went out and bought a brand new GM ignition coil, but it's raining and I have to drill the old one off of the bracket before I can see if it was just the coil. I'll keep Summit in mind for when I really want to upgrade to the Blaster. What will the weatherman say next? Snow?

 

10* BTDC of #1 on the compression stroke or on the exhaust stroke?

RBob.

 

Compression: I have the valve cover off on that side to make triple-sure it's on the compression stroke. I have just installed the new coil and I still get nothing but backfiring. Is it possible that when I removed the fuel rail and the wiring from it the first time that I got two of the injectors wrong? I mean, the wires are bent so they point right at the injector they are supposed to be firing, or am I wrong? Is there a method to GM's madness?

 

Injectors are batch fire, doesn't matter which wire goes to which injector.

Get someone to crank it while turning the distributor counter-clock wise (as TomP mentioned). If everthing else is close it'll fire.

RBob.

 

Okay, it's update time.
First of all, I would like to say thanks for the help.
Second of all, imagine an engine's insides after the engine has run 150K miles without an oil change. If you're thinking "ewww, it would be totally black and crusty inside", you hit the nail on the head. My neighbor came over after I attempted to start the engine with the new ig coil. We removed the intake manifold... BIG mistake! I'm obviously going to be scrubbing the insides of that block with a wire brush for the next week until I get ALL of the crust out! I'll re-post if I have troubles when I put the engine back together again! I hate that guy, you know, the guy who really messed this engine up...! (unintelligable swearing at top of lungs) There, I feel better now...

 

When you get It back to together check to see if the Dist. has not been turned a little bit. my friend has a '89 Camaro RS with the 2.8 and we changed the spark plug wires and put them where the manual said the were supost to be and it would not start for nothing. We moved each wire over one terminal and it fired right up. We checked the timing and it was dead set on where it was supost to be. so try that and good luck.

 

I got a question about reassesmbly. What's the deal with the three tightning steps? Does it have to do with the enigne temperature?

 

If you don't remeber why I removed the passenger head in the first place, I'll tell you. I had a coolant leak which I thought was the head gasket. It turned out to be the intake manifold. Now, when I removed the intake manifold and looked inside, the little screen indie the coolant passage, under the thermostat, was completely plugged. How do I clear it? I am not sure exactly what is plugging it, but it's really super-plugged. I think the prerssure of the coolant just continued to rise until it pushed the gasket sealer out of the front of the manifold or the gasket out of place, whatever. I know it leaks badly. If I completely fill the system, the system will be empty in five minutes if I don't plug the leak, and I know that the day I take it to the mech on the other side of town, there will be a ton of traffic and the traffic lights will not be favorable to engine health, or should I say life.
Also, is it still possible to purchase straight ethylene glycol (antifreeze)? I have a gallon jug of 50-50 mix, but I want to make it 70-30 for optimum operation.
Oh, yeah, and Double Post .

 

Ok, I got the full FelPro gasket kit, which includes all the gaskets I need and more, and has a tube of RTV black sealant for the front and rear of the intake manifold. I still need to know how to clear that coolant screen in the intake maifold, so I don't develop another leak.

 

ok im not sure about the screen myself since i havent seen it before, but im thinking for your no start fuel isnt the problem. You only need 3 things, fuel-compression-ignition. If your backfiring you have spark so why would you need a coil? Also, you should probably check compression with a gauge. If you have no compression it makes all this stuff with the ignition and fuel useless. the 3 steps im assuming your talking about is cylinder head torque? it has nothing to do with temperature...if you dont apply torque in steps at the proper sequence you risk warping the cylinder head...which would give you low compression in that bank. maybe borrow a gauge or something so you can rule out compression. also, i know youve probably checked firing order but recheck..and even though you sure about your balancer mark turn the crank 180 degrees and try it any way you might have the distributor 180 degrees off which would give you that back fire

 

HOLY OLD POST, BATMAN!!!
This thread was started when I still had the broken, blown-up 2.8 under the hood of my Bird (and the 700R4, and a completely different paint job, among other things). Oh, and I believe that I had a bad ECM at the time, the first of three or four I have had to go through before I could find one that actually works the way I need it to.

Now, I have a T-5 with a 3.1 under the hood, and I have added 25K to the clock since this was posted. You see, the following March, a bolt somehow fell into the #6 cylinder of the 2.8, and after I managed to pull the heads and get that out, the next time I tried to start the engine, the #4 connecting rod blew apart, taking a chunk of the block and making a hole in the oil pan with it. In May, my dad paid almost a grand to a mechanic friend that swapped in my 3.1 (however crappily they did it, good thing both of those guys went out of business), and I have been going pretty much non-stop since. This year alone, I have put 10K on the car since I got it out of storage in May.

Not to mention I am back in school for automotive mechanics...

Only problem I have now is that I have 2 partially clogged injectors, which I hope to replace sometime later this month.