ski_dwn_it

Well I thought I would share with you a project that I am working in conjunction with that involves a Edlebrock Victor Jr single plane carberator style intake, and is retrofitted to take advantage of the benifits gained from EFI setups.

The setup after many tials and tribulations was finalized last night and started on my car. It fired right up and but there are definately going to be some hours of tuning ahead to get it dialed in, which should be interesting since tomorrow I am heading to the track, and the area I live it, is covered in ~3 inches of snow. lol.

The thoughts are with the intake, it would be a hybrid of both the SR with its ~17" Runners, great for low end & and the miniram with ~2" runners (great top end). This intake will sport a ~7" runner system. These intakes are known for their effectiveness on carberated 383+ motors. I am told I should see VERY nice gains...~3-4 MPH pickups, and ETs in the possible 10.7- low 10.9s. Nearly 130 MPH outta this setup would be increadible. We will see.

I antisipate on documenting the tuning process of the intake, I only have about 2 weekend left, counting this one to get it all ironed out, so it should be interesting, especially with the weather here. Plans were to have it on middle of last week, but I had to have some of the designs of it changed and this put us off ~ 1 week.

Here are some pictures of the intake. Keep in mind it is a prototype, and this has gone through a few iterations of what the final outcome will be. Final Products that will be available, will be much cleaner and basically ~40 minute bolts on.

Stay "tuned" for results following this weekends shakedown, logs and other information.

Regards,

ski_dwn_it

TRAXION

One small error Jesse. The MiniRam has about a 5" runner .... not 2". The runners on the MR are substantially longer than the LT1 manifold because the MR is an air gap design.

Tim

ski_dwn_it

Trax thanks.. Dang thought those were the lengths I remember reading.....here are ones I have documented. Here is actually what I should have used: Are you counting also the heads as part of the runner? MAybe that is why these are off a little from your figures...

here is what I have seen in the past as measurements. I actually never took the time to physically measure them, but from there, you see the XSP1 would be very close to the middle of both....

At any rate, it should be interesting to see.

Super Ram Runners 4.125"
Super Ram Base 6.125"
Total: 10.250

TPIS Mini Ram 3.500"

The best that Jeb has ever seen from a MR was 280 CFM, this intake with just bungs added on his flow bench was 290...after the box was added, it actually increased to 296CFM..with some porting of the welds etc, it will easily flow 300+ CFM from what he is telling me.

Ed Maher

Is the 'carb face' milled down anymore to help with hood clearance, or does that squat box take care of that by itself?

If you could borrow one, might be neat to compare (on a dyno anyway) that box adapter to an elbow piece. Never clear the vette hood though, but if you're trying to mine info from it, might help someone else who has the room.

ski_dwn_it

Ed,

yeah I believe that it was taken down a little, to accomidate the box. It just clears my hood, and if you look close at it we accounted for tehe cowl in the hood and the front is slightly angled down. It give it a nice straight line also for air flow.

I will check with Jeb, if he every flowed a setup like this with a elbo piece. We were both surprised that the box added to the flow. There are a few other items I am going to suggest to him also that I see will help aid in increasing the flow. But ~300 CFM will make some serious ponies ....nearly 617hp if there is enough motor and other components to utilize it.

TRAXION

Jesse,

Ooops. My fault. I was wrong. But, it's still not 2". Take a look at the following pics. One is the length ...
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28...0218mrinstall/

I lent my intake to Mike Davis for some testing a couple years ago. He's good at documenting things. There's a measurement in there for the runner. It's 2-5/8"" ... not 5" or 2". Roflmfao.

My bad.

Tim

Grim Reaper

Which MR?

The "basic" MR which most people refer to and uses the 1204 gasket has a 2.60 x 1.35 entry and only a 1.98 x 1.20 exit. There are other MRs that use 1205s and 1206s with larger exits ports. As you can see from the port entry size, there is definite flow advantages to the 1205 and 1206 versions.

ski_dwn_it

Glenn to be honest I am not sure what MR he was talking about. But in my research of intakes and flows I have compiled the following:

These are flow numbers that were done by in independant on several types of intakes. You can see they are roughly in line with what Jeb reported. Other than the ones that were welded etc, which put then on a playing field of their own. I'm sure the XSP1 would have similiar work done to it to also compete in that area, but like I said...300 CFM is a bunch of air.

(peak numbers without head attached; 28" Hg):

TPI, stock base, stock runners, 48MM - 185 cfm
TPI, Accel base, large tubes, lots of porting, 52MM - 212 cfm
TPI, Accel base (cheater), large tubes, lots of porting, 52MM - 226 cfm

SR with unported Edelbrock base, 52MM - 224 cfm
SR with unported Accel base, 52MM - 233 cfm
SR with heavily massaged E base, mild port runners, 58MM - 256 cfm
SR with heavily massaged A base, mild port runners, 58MM - 259 cfm
SR with heavily massaged A base, massive work throughout - 278 cfm

stock MRII with 1204 (AFR 195) ports, 58MM - 265 cfm
stock MRII with 1206 (AFR 220) ports, 58MM - 281 cfm
MRII clean-up, 1206 ports, 58MM - 292 cfm
MRII cut, weld, port, ect, 58MM - 321 cfm
MRII (same as above with mono blade) - 322 cfm

Grim Reaper

Thanks for the table, I'm sure many will find it useful.

On the stock Miniram 1204/195 AFR, are your sure 195 AFRs and not 190? I say this because my friend had to port his Miniram quite a bit to port match it to his 195 AFR Comp Ported heads.

No disagreement on "cleaning up" the Miniram. Mine looked pretty rough inside the ports.

SATURN5

Looks like a close copy of the intake built by Troy Trepanier for John Meany's twin turbo corvette. Same idea, single plane intake, with box plenum.

You'll also like Monty's Hogan...



more on Monty's +1200 HP vette.

http://www.montygwilliams.com/


BW

ski_dwn_it

WOW that is a busy compartment! lol.

Yeah there very well may be other intakes made like this. By no means is this a new idea or a one of a kind, well its sorta one of a kind, but the idea is the same. I have had an eye on a Hogan's intake for quite a while, but at 2500+ dollars a pop, with no fixins, an eye is about all I will put on it.

Messed with it all night. Not much chance to tune it. Cinders all over the roads up here. Winter SUCKs.

Seems to have a slight reverb just off idle throttle position, then it kicks in and takes off. Other than that though. Nothing real noticable.

Tomorrow we will put all the cards on the table and see what hand we were delt.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

That's great, but what does this have to do with PROMs?? Moving to the TPI Board.

coolcorkvette1

the runner length to this super victor is 6-7 inches compared to under 3 inches on a mini ram so it should be a nice compromise betwwen hp and tq compared to the mini ram and super ram we will see tomorrow

OMINOUS_87

That intake looks to be like a real ripper! You cant be afraid to rev on it a bit now, the super vic should easily be able to feed that 400 into deap 6000 rpm land.

ski_dwn_it

Well I WAS going to track the tuning process of a new intake of this sort for others to be able to use a guide...thought I made that pretty clear.

Guess the administration, doesn't care to see real world tuning, and would rather have more theoretical/bench tuning happening.

Sorry to the rest that would have gained from this.

Off to the track I go...

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

You can do it on this board with no problems.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Very interesting chart that ski_dwn_it posted. Looks like the average modified TPI will flow in the neighborhood of 220CFM. That is probably about what my TPI is running. What kind of horsepower will the 220CFM support. I have the L98 350. Thanks, Allen

87_TA

A rule of thumb is 2 hp per CFM best case senario<(spelling)
So 440 HP would be a very huge bench mark to hit.

ski_dwn_it

Thought that logs, explinations of tuning ect were what the DIY-PROM board was about? Pehaps I need to visit the main page again and read the descriptions again.

Also exactly how many moderator are there on this forum? Seems there are more of them than normal subcribers....you guys must be trying to compete with hair dressers. j/k

smithtc

iTrader: (5)

1st thing...thanks ski_dwn_it for your informative posts, and sometimes entertainment as well...

What exactly is an "air gap design"?
Thanks

Based on the above, why do you think your new intake will outperform the Miniram? or, is your approach just more cost-effective? Also, I have not done any computer chip tuning myself, so my knowledge is limited in this area...but how will it be different than a miniram's tune, or even the Holley Stealth Ram that some people claim to flow 275 "out of box" with 300+ cfm potential?

11sORbust

HSR=300cfms out of the box

ski_dwn_it

OK guys I am here with the results...they are going to be short and sweet. I am beat, but I know a few of you are anxiuos to see the outcome of the test.

Little background. Today the DA was hovering around 100-300 ft. It was a test and tune and traction was minimal, so that played a huge role in decifering the slips and seeing the gains. Dave Outten (Hooked Up) was also there. He too was having terrible traction problems, typically pulls low 1.3x and today 1.4x...

Onto the comparison: As said it was a Test and tune event, so we got many runs in. Very good for testing out the intake...Fuel pressure changes, shift points etc. After getting it all dialed in, we were able to extract some very good information to gain insight into the performance of the intake as a whole.

Here is a breakdown, compared to a slip from 2 weeks ago, same strip, 600' DA, and previous SR intake.

Delta will be the difference in intervals. ie 60' => 330'

........ Super Ram.....Delta Time.....Single plane.....Delta Time
60'........ 1.523..................................1.544
330 ........4.518............2.995..............4.589.............3.045
1/8........ 7.043............2.525...............7.115.............2.526
MPH........97.04...................................97.30
1000........9.242...................................9.299.............
1/4........11.113..........4.070................11.169...........4.054
MPH........121.41..................................121.15

So what you see is that the Single Plane intake was nearly dead nuts on with the Super Ram. With a slight loss down low, which was expected and a .02 gain on the big end. In the end it came out nearly a dead even wash. Which for prospective intake buyers this proves to be a valid option. I was VERY suprised to feel the car when I would shift into second gear, break the tires loose! So its definately feels as if its making more power.

Not real sure what the outcome would be on a smaller motor. Sure some future tests could clarify that. On some motors like ours what have a great deal of DA readings to compare to for accurate measuring.

What suprised Cork, Dad, Dave, and I was the fact my shift point was moved from 5200RPM to 6300RPM! So there is no doubt in my mind that more gears would really wake this baby up, and really make it gain on the big end, since I am only going through the traps at about 4750 RPM.

All in all, Corky and I have talked about the intake in much detail over the phone for the last few weeks. It did exactly what we expected and wanted out of it for our/my future plans and we are very pleased with the results we see.......Oh yeah did I mention I am building a new motor? I know where there will be an AWESOME shortblock available...serious inquiries only please :smash: :thumbs:

Let me know what you guys think of the results! :cheers: Great Job Jeb above ~4500 RPM the intake pulls like a ****! :thumbs: arty:


To answer a few questions here:

smithtc,
Entertainment?.... It follows me around....like Schleprock.

Why better than a MR? As you can see from the results, and I do not care to debate with anyone what I am about to say, unless you have equivalent data like above tied to DA etc. But as you can see, the advantage is with the medium length runners the XSP1 has, you can maintain nearly 98% of the bottom end, while gaining on the big end of the track. As mentioned, if I had more gear, then the 60'+330' would be much less noticable, and more of again would have been realized on the big end. I should really have been going through the traps at about 6250-6300 RPM.

87_TA

Good results,
Now see why people shift later and run more gear?
Makes for a much more fast streetable combo.
I have been sitting on a 1000 CFM 4bl throttle body for a while, just no $$ for the intake.
I was planning that same swap earlier in the yr less plenum,I wanted to convert a old VR. I have.

11sORbust

What are you shooting for ,hp wise? I'm thinking hard about putting a turbo on my 406, after it hits 11's...

Grumpy

That might be going the wrong way. Note, might, since there are always lots of contributing facts in configuring something to a particular car.

With the 4 hole setup your raising the mean air velocity entering the plenum, and making the air more difficult to turn, don't forget air has mass, and once acclerated like with using smaller butterflies it has to give up energy to be able to turn easily.

The 4 barrel idea originally was to keep the velocity up and help with the action in the booster for better atomizing the fuel, so that it stayed in suspension longer, and got to the intake valve is it's most reative state. Or on a TBI, the 4 brl idea is valid, but on multiport, the advantage wanes.

87_TA

Well I have heard good things of that setup, But I would imagine that it would really favor High RPM due to the very straight through design and 1 hole per runner series.
Maybe too effecient at the High RPM .
But I got it cheap and figured it may be worth a shot. Also waiting for the VR. EFI intake to come out before hacking mine.

I always have great plans till I realize they all take money,
Is robbing a bank legal?

Grumpy

What do you mean by 1 hole per runner series?.

Whatza VR. EFI intake?

Sorry but the down side to bank robbery far exceed the good.

87_TA

What do you mean by 1 hole per runner series?.

Well Just like a 4bl carb, 1 brl per siamesed runners.
Right inline - very straight shot lots of High RPM Velocity.
Bad low rpm atomization.

Whatza VR. EFI intake? Sorry.

Victor Jr. Edelbrok
Soon releasing the Victor EFI, Drilled for Injectors.


Sorry but the down side to bank robbery far exceed the good.

LOL..

Grim Reaper

Only if you're caught.

coolcorkvette1

i was very pleased with the results lost probally less than 800 a second given the tractipon problems now this was with a car with a 307 rear gear so it is very promising intake not to mention the ease ability with insatll + no negative drivabilitys down low it is another allternitive but the cost is probally the same with ease of install + it looks hairy

ski_dwn_it

Few other things I wanted to also point out is the intake can be configured to any intake of your choice. Brodix, Edlebrock Victor, etc

Also my car ran tremendously cool with the new intake. At one point i was having a problem with my charging system, bad ground we found, and I had to leave the car idle in a huge line waiting for my turn to run, hood closed. Held between 182 and 175 with zero problems. To my utter surprise it was my best run. Got back to the pits popped the hood, and touched the intake. It was only luke warm!!!! My SR used to get so hot you could have fried an egg on it. This will be geat for consistancy needed in bracket racing, when eliminating variables is crucial.

As corky mentioned, the intake was very adaptable as far as tuning. None of the issues that typically surround the minirams on many setups.

With some more gear to get me through the traps at abut 6300RPM, I surely would have seen super gains with the intake. I have many suggestions for the manufacturer, that they will incorporate into the design to even make it potentially even more effective.

Also as Corky said, it looks VERY mean on there. The tech guy when I opened up the hood said, WOW, that is not your everyday vette, I said well actually it is, and he looked at me funny, and I explained its still streetable, AC, power everything etc. And he said he was working the lanes/start last time I was there with the car and he said it was pretty dang impressive for a stock car, not packing any power adders etc.

11sORbust

ski,

What bin changes did you make to complement the intake?

onebinky

iTrader: (1)

you wouldn't happen to have any pictures of just the intake, would you?

Ed Maher

Just curious, are you still running the same injectors?

coolcorkvette1

yep they were the same 24s injectors in there like jeese said we were very happy with the results no problems like you here about the mini rams not that i know of first hands but heard of it was very close to comparison to the super ram down at the 60 but the track prep was terrible so i would like to see it on a good track prep to really say if it lost any down low maybe none we were down there with another guy who usually 60s in the bottem 1.30s and his best was a 1.39 most were in the 1.4s so there was a question on track prep hopefully next week we will go back out again with better prep track but all in all it was a very nice conversion and i would see no problem with from a performance standpoint being from a tried and true super victor manifold and remember this car only has a 307 rear gear too

ski_dwn_it

Yes as corky indicated and there will be logs to prove that even at the higher RPM 6375+ the injectors are not static. I will bring my laptop back to work after lunch if I can get outta here and retrieve it.

I put a set of 36# ers in there the night before, and the car ran so rich even with a little playing around with the tune it was sick. Under WOT it sounded as if it was under water running. No sence in pissing with tuning what you know to be too large of injectors.

I have a post over on the TPI section, I would like a few of the large injector guys like yourself ed to propose an answer to...but I know none of you guys will put your necks out on the block with a suggestion. So I will give you the lowdown on a extremely hot running motor.

Everyone should visit, logs will follow with the those as soon as Dave forwards the data.

Ed Maher

It's a shame you didn't bring the injectors to the track with you to prove they weren't the problem. Other folks have run bigger injectors in smaller engines to great success, maybe it's just a matter of actually getting them on the track / dyno to dial them in. You of all people i would have thought would have tested that.


I guess i was just expecting some serious gains, as were you. To run near identical timeslips would seem to show me that something else was your limiting factor. Maybe it's just a matter of needing more time tuning on the new intake period, how close were you in the 5500+ region, since thats "new" territory for your tune? Were you logging on the WB, or just making a best guess? I'm just trying to understand your experiment.

BTW, i don't see another post by you just yet about the injectors so maybe i'm jumping the gun on some of these Qs?

BTW2, yuck, 3.07 gears. Might be worth getting it on a dyno next just to see exactly what happens to the power since those tall gears might be skewing your track numbers more than they should.

11sORbust

ski_dwn_it

Ed,

There is was no need to put the 36 lbs injectors in...surely I could tune them to do the same things, but why go through the hassle. 11s we tuned the WOT fuel to correct for the added air. Had to add quite a bit actually. First run was at 11.4 was pretty lean on the dial. Kept increasing fuel till the fuel was in line, then adjusted shift points. A totol of about 10 runs were made to dial her in. I am VERY confident the tune is on. With both Corky and I on a tune, it doesn't take too long to firgure out where it needs to be. That is a no-brainer.

This test told us several things, and having tuned my car on a dyno, at the track, etc...these points were all solidified Saturday.

(1) Our heads right now (box stock AFR 190s are maxed out, with both intakes) Hence the reason for the same MPH with both intake. The only thing this intake did for us was move the power band up ~1000 RPM, which was WAY higher than we expected.

(2) With this power band shift, the 3.07 gears are now hurting me. It lost bottom end and gained top end, which is what we expected. It was a wash, which is great for other SR prospects due to the ease of the installation, etc.

(3) With my new motor plans already underway, the added CFM this intake will make, and the raised power band will help in MANY ways.
(a) decrease in bottom end, will be made up for in CIs and help save our rear differentials...at 536ft-lbs now, huge increase we will see with the new motors would have been devistating on them...can you say well over 600 rw ft-lbs, then maybe a tickle of about 250hp juice on them for rare occasions, at over 900+ ft-lbs!!
I have a feeling its still going to be a case of snap-crackle pop for us...but that is what makes it fun. Pushing the limits and making it better.

This intake test, without a doubt offers a great alternative to have the best of both worlds between the SR and the Miniram. Can't believe more people are not excited about having an alternative. The results speak for themselves above. Some more tweaking on the shift points for different gears, and optimizing rear gears for the intake would surely make my car a 10sec with that intake. Just not enough time in the race season.

My motor is now officially for sale!

Jesse

camarojoe

Good luck with the new motor, ski. I personally love the new intake and it's design, I may give it a chance one day if it's available. I'm going to stick with the mini for now though. I agree about the 190's being maxed out at about 550hp, even though that in itself is impressive. I also agree that you rear end ratio is holding you back from gaining a few tenths in e.t. Now here's my q, what are your planned mods and displacement for the new engine?? Are you going to run those raised-runner SBC AFR's, that'd be awesome?

11sORbust

so your next engine will be built for torque and it'll be for the track? I'm just wondering because I did the opposite with my 406. I'm shooting for hp over tq. My 450rwtq off idle was too much for the street. That is what my car is for, street. It'll be lucky to see the track 3 times a year. So I went for max hp because my traction on the street will be little. Your torque monster might be something to keep an eye on.Sounds like a different type project.

11sORbust

I'm also suprised that you use mechanical means to adjust the fuel . Considering you just richen up the entire curve. It might have helped to change the actual fuel curve. Not an insult, just curious why you didn't take advantage of ecm tuning....

camarojoe

What is everyone so concerned about Ski's fueling?? I think he got it pretty much dead on with his 24lb'ers. The heads and rear end are his restrictions at this point, not the injectors.

ski_dwn_it

Camarojoe has a point...we have proven beyond a shadow a doubt that 24# injectors can support major power, and do it well. even in light of all the ridicule people have thrown out. we still remain unbroken in our proof.

More debate on other post of mine with regards to that...

Anyways, my new motor is going to be kept a little secret for a while till plans are finalized, which are taking place this moment.
Then as always it will be laid out for all to see, and ridiculed as always. Only those that are going to point finger will have an opportunity to point out all the flaws ahead of time, so we can proven them all wrong again.

11s, no its will still remain streetable, Obiously the 600+ ft-lbs is assuming with this one 406, the larger motor will make more torque and with nitrous we know what 100 hp shot, typically makes to the order of 2x the Hp in torque, so 900 ft-lbs is not hard to imagine. Doubt I will ever put that much on, but it will be built with that intention and internals that will not bat an eyelash at it should I choose to use that much.

24# injectors will be opn the motor for starters. We have to see what it will do, then maybe 30#ers. Also MAF will be used, then perhaps SD, as I do believe we will be way past the mid 10s were I have said it will start being an issue, but we will find that limit once and for all.

And the Hp numbers, 11, will be way up there. Get out your popcorn!

11sORbust

People has used 2Xlb injectors for years on high hp engines. Nobody said you was wrong for having small injectors. There is two types of tuners. Ones that use small injectors with high f/p and the others use larger size injectors and the pressure the injectors are rated at. I'm not going to share my views because it seems to be a hot topic. But like I said before, you can PM me and I'll tell you what method I use and why. I am carefull not to tell people they are wrong. Some people have different tuning methods. Some people will "do it" to prove you wrong. But I don't judge others methods if they are wrong or not. I just know certain things that I use. The injector debate is a wash, if you ask me. Because small injectors/high fuel pressure OR larger injectors/fuel pressure @ the inj rated psi WILL net the same results. So nobody will be able to prove which method is right. PM me and get my methods/views, if you like.

Tim I was meaning that it my car is only for the street. So I could never harness that much torque on missouri roads. Traction was a joke with 500lbs of torque, on my car. I was wondering what the hp will be, aprox. Cause all the race engines I've built has more hp that torque. So you must be building a monster

11sORbust

Did you get those logs ready to post yet? IT would be cool to compare your gr/sec, pw and stuff from both intakes.I cant wait to see those numbers. I'm going to make a custom intake and would love to see how your intake changed the pw/duty cycle and maf's gr/sec.

Twilightoptics

What rpm did you take off at, and what did you to with your spark to get the take off quick?

I've noticed single planes and the hsr/mr seem like they take forever to get to the 3500rpm point, but after that they rock.