Grey Goose

A friend of mine works over at Brothers Performance over in Corona and occasionally lets me know when a high horsepower car comes in for a tuning session or a baseline. Those of you that are familiar with Brothers Performance know that it is a strictly Ford/Mustang performance shop. So if something other than a Mustang were to pull in for a baseline it simply wouldn’t go unnoticed. My buddy called me earlier to let me know that there was a third gen strapping in for a baseline and asked if I might know the guy. His description is as follows, “faded two-tone blue and gray Z28 with a bad case of psoriasis on the hood”. I asked him to describe the gentleman that was driving the vehicle, this is what he replied, “I don’t know… a white guy, you know the typical sadomasochist, white collar, sexual deviant types that live around here”. Well after deciphering his dialect it sounded like a certain bunny we all know. Just to be sure I told my buddy to take a picture and give him a bogus form to fill out when he picked up his cell phone as I was about to call him. “What’s up buddy… what are you up to?” “Oh, Hi Mike… can I call you back… I’m about to go into a meeting”. Right as he said that I can here friend in the background asking him to fill out a questionnaire. James what you did was down right WRONG! How dare you not invite me to the party!

My buddy called me back after James left and e-mailed the photo and gave me the specifics on the pulls. It’s not my place to say what the car did but I will say this my buddy had a crowd of California Mustang punks around him when he was reading me the numbers. One of the guys in the background said that they have had third gens on the dyno before but none of them had put down power like this one. Just hearing the Mustang boys DDDDDDDAAAAAMMMMMNNNNNN was good enough for me.

Congratulations!

P.S. Thanks for the invite A$$HOLE!?!?!!?

8T8IROC

iTrader: (3)

James, let us know how the experience was at Brothers, Rusty and I were thinking of taking our cars there for some performance tuning once I purchase the rest of the necessaries

P.S. It was cool to see you out at the track, even without the bunny

Mike - you are invited to come any of my strap down parties :lala:

12secSS

Congrats James, can wait to hear the numbers ... oh wait, I meant ahhh that POS 3rd gen only dynoed 200 rwhp, anything more is BS.

Brother's is a great shop for anyone wanting to go there. I had my SS dynoed there back when it had only 10K miles, the dyno operator had never seen a factory stock A4 LS1 dyno what mine did, 312/319. He even mentioned that alot of M6er's couldn't reach that number. Definately go there, I recommend them!

james_85Z28

Brothers was great. I got 4 runs in and had time between runs to change the fuel and timing in my chips, burn the chips, and go again. The dyno guy was real cool and my only dissapointment was that they didn't have an wideband O2 so I had to guess about my fueling needs as I left mine at home. Luckily I guessed right which was still the opposite direction I thought I needed to go and had seen from previous track days. Again for 4 runs in ~45 minutes with tuning in between the cost of $59.99 was decent.

My numbers were pretty decent for my combo and along the lines I was expecting although like everyone else I was hoping for just a little more Maybe next time There were a couple things I could have done to make even more power like remove my filthy air filters and run higher octane gas.

Here is a recent PM I had with Vincent recently:

But it was obvious he had put a new cam in it when I heard it idle on Saturday at Fontana. So in that secretive and deceptive practice here are my results:


I made 4 runs with each run having better results than the previous. My peak HP of xxx.x @ XXXX RPM and peak torque of xxx.xx @XXXX RPM was about right, but I am very suprised and thought my HP would be a little ______ and to the ______ and my torque a little _______ and to the _______ so overall I am quite pleased. I gained xx hp by ___________ fuel and spark. What's very cool is the from XXXX RPM to XXXX RPM I have over XXX TQ at the rear wheels and I have over xxx hp from XXXX to XXXX which explains why I get my best times at my ________ shifting points. My HP peak surprised both Mike and I. I for sure thought it was _________ .


When the dyno guy asked me what I expected to see at the wheels he looked at me like I was from mars. When my friend [let's call him "M"] asked him if he has many thirdgens on the dyno he said "Yes, but none of them put the as much power down like this one."



Giving actual dyno numbers would be meaningless unless everybody uses the same dyno. We can rent the dyno on a Saturday at a cost of $400 for 4 hrs. If we get 10 cars that means 3-4 runs for $40 per car and the true numbers all the cars have will be known.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Vincent didnt put a new cam in his engine. He just hasnt let me tune it yet for the Trick Flow heads.

Come on James, there's no reason to be embarrassed about your low numbers. You can post them.

Grey Goose

I know I’m the king of deception but all bull$hit aside Kevin, the car put down some weighty numbers, I’m talking double digits higher than the ones in your signature. So I don’t think its embarrassment at all, I think its humility. James isn’t the type to brag or call attention to himself. Why he isn’t sharing is beyond me…

Perhaps you can help me understand something, how in the hell does a Super Ram put down more torque that a LTR set up? Horsepower, understandable but torque?

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

If that's the right graph for his dyno runs, his car couldnt have put down more than 400 lb/ft of torque. The graph doesnt go higher than 400, and his black marks dont go above 400 either. So help me understand that one.

I know his car put down better numbers than mine. He has much better heads. I'm just playing along.

james_85Z28

If he didn't change cams there would be no need for a new tune since he has had the heads for a few years now. I know he put in a new cam. He told me. I can even tell you the manufacturer and grind number. I can even tell you why he was forced to use a new cam.

Rest assured knowing my car put down numbers inline with its combo. Do a search on TGO and you'll find people with my combo and my numbers are basically the same as theirs. Why don't you post a graph of your dyno run? I don't recall ever seeing that. Why should I be any different?

Once you get your car together we can put your car on an honest dyno and we can swap graphs. Once Vincent gets his car tuned for his Lunati 226/234 cam we can put that on the dyno as well. Although his 2X ported heads and extrude-honed super ram will put out numbers similar to mine +/- 5~10 TQ & HP.

I got it dyno'd so I can see where it's at and make a couple decisions off that. The only thing that counts is results and those are publicly available at the track for your viewing pleasure.

I am putting on a stock replacement muffler soon and I'm sure I will lose some power from that. I will now know how much and it will make my car more pleasant to drive.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

It doesn't......perhaps you misread.
Naw! I forgot you are the master of disception]

[If that's the right graph for his dyno runs, his car couldnt have put down more than 400 lb/ft of torque. The graph doesnt go higher than 400, and his black marks dont go above 400 either. So help me understand that one]

RWB____s

Giving actual dyno numbers would be meaningless unless everybody uses the same dyno. We can rent the dyno on a Saturday at a cost of $400 for 4 hrs. If we get 10 cars that means 3-4 runs for $40 per car and the true numbers all the cars have will be known. [/B][/QUOTE]


Since I was told of this thread by Kevin, I'm ready to put my car on the dyno and see what it has. I like the Idea of a group dyno day. So who can set one up at brothers and how many want to
go?

james_85Z28

I don't know what Mike is refering to but let's just say I have well over 300RWHP still at 6K RPM.

We all know the LTRs are the king of peak torque but die abruptly at under 5K RPM. The SR trades peak torque for a wider power band and the MR trades even more peak torque for an even higher power band. Right ?

My graphs are with 91-octane and street trim. Next time I'll do some things to get even more power. This was just a baseline run to see what I put out with my everyday cofiguration.

Grey Goose

Alright James, we’ve got their attention now… why don’t you post the actual sheet now.

james_85Z28

I've never seen any of the other playa's post their graphs. Why should I be any different?

Hell, Don questioned the use of 190cc and even 195cc heads on the street and now he goes out and orders a set of 200cc heads And now Kevin's <170cc heads that were good for a 12.80 pass are no longer big enough. And Vince has ported his heads so many times he had to cut a 1/4 coil off his sportlines so he wouldn't look like he was always launching his car. If he ported them any more he'd have a water injection system. Why should I play my hand so early

Like I said and RWB would like, why don't we setup a dyno day at brothers for a Saturday and rent them out...4/hrs for $400. That's the only way you guys are going to see my graph

8T8IROC

iTrader: (3)

I definitely like the sound of this idea! I would really appreciate having the individuals with the experience of computer tuning to help me out with making some chips on a dyno day, with my own equipment of course

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Ahemmmm!.... so now it's not real unless it's posted

Questioning me as saying things like that


I guess you could not be a tease and show it all instead of parts

Damn....who started all this secret stuff anyways?

Just rambling thoughts

Grey Goose

Dude I don’t know what you’ve got posted above but that’s certainly not what I was referring to in my initial post (thanks for making me look like a complete idiot). That wasn’t the printout that I saw yesterday when you stopped by. Searching through your directory, this is what I found and definitely what I saw yesterday. Just be honest and tell everyone that your 350 is long gone and it all about the cubes now. I’m sure everyone has been searching third gen looking for stats on different SuperRam combinations to try and estimate what kind of power you are putting down. Dude what were you really doing when you said that you couldn’t go to the meeting week before last and why did it take two days to rebuild your rear end? Oh, and I also hear that you didn’t run the car on Saturday either. Sounds like a fresh combo that needs time to break in to me.

Sorry I scavenged through your directory, but I have to protect my integrity…

JERRYWHO

Not everyone.

Jerry

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

My dyno sheet has been posted on my website since August 9th, 2002. A search of the TPI board here would have found it.

http://para.noid.org/~thresher/dyno.jpg

Kevin

RWB____s

That dyno sheet is real old! I think its time for a update!

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

I didnt know Vincent told you about the cam, but you said he installed it and I can tell you truthfully he didnt.

Yep, you figured out my secret. Dad's getting some 200 cc heads and we're using that 383 crank he has to bolt into my block, and we're gonna swing a big club at the track next time. Just you wait. Then he's gonna use my heads because they're lighter than the iron Vortecs he has.

We're supposed to get a dyno for free at a vendor of my dad's. I wont mention it online since its a personal favor thing. If you guys want to dyno again at Brother's go right ahead, but we wont set up this dyno time until both our engines are complete.

Yes that dyno sheet is old, but its more expensive to tune on the dyno than it is at the track. I went and dynoed again last year but that was before I figured out the problem with my engine, and the numbers were down 50+ from my best.

RWB____s

Well I guess I'll goit alone. I did call superior in anahiem and they wanted $40 each and a min. of five cars for a saturday. I dont know about brothers yet.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Hey James! I 'd trace down the air leak. It's the 2-4 runner to the base gasket. This is one good reason I couldn't get good times. the best time was 13.16@105 205 60ft.

james_85Z28

I knew you had an vacuum leak. You will only get faster. One day, maybe you too can run a 12 at Fontana.


Mike- I don't appreciate you going through my directories and broadcasting your "finds", let alone trying to give the impression I have a 377 or 383 bigger inch motor. My engine block is the same. If I was to go through all the work of doing the engine swap I would have hoped I would have changed my oil pan...which is the same one that was damaged. I just fixed my whining rear that weekend and spent some time tuning my engine. That extra tuning time and the wide band is where I got the better driveability and power. Everyone knows why I didn't race it at the track. If you still got a beef with me about what happend last weekend I thought we settled that when I stopped by the other day and showed you my dyno results. I didn't mind you showing the pic of my car on the dyno that you stole from my directory but STF away from revealing things I don't want to talk about.

I have removed the dyno graphs for now. Maybe when everybody has their combo dialed in and working we can swap info then. Until that time I'll keep my numbers to myself. This is just a daily driver street car that is fun to drive. I don't need loping cams or an aluminum block to try and keep up or beet the jones's. When I go to Don's and he installs the cheap 2.5" STOCK REPLACEMENT muffler--- my mods will be done and it's time for me to move on before the kitchens gets too hot.

In order to keep up with the next level of mods I will need a better exhaust setup (custom dual cat with 1.75 SLPs or illegal long tubes and custom Y) as well as a better intake/cam combo and cleaned up heads. Then to compliment that I'd need 3.73s or 4.11s. Not to mentions more cubes. All that would give me such crappy gas mileage my car would no longer be practical as a daily driver.

Attached is a picture of my rear that my friend rebuilt at his shop. It didn't take two days. I was there on Sunday because in return for him rebuilding my rear I helped him him do some of his like use my WB to get the jetting right in his boat.

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

What I want to know is how you have time to run to the dyno, and my dad's shop, and still work enough hours to pay for all this?

Guest

Funny, it doesnt look like a Supra. Eh, whatever, same difference.

Grey Goose

Dude if my new combo gets anywhere near the numbers yours does I’ll be ecstatic. It kills me to watch you downplay your accomplishment. All of the research, testing, and tuning that we’ve done over the last year and you wont display the fruits of our labor? There are so many enthusiasts on this board that simply aren’t as fortunate to be able to purchase the high-end parts, tuning equipment, and track time needed to design, assemble, and refine a combination like yours.

I’m just thinking of all the guys that are busting their humps and saving up for combos that might not work. We’ve all learned volumes from this site and each other. All I’m saying is that this is a proven combination; why not share the numbers with them…

Sorry about the directory, but c’mon man I cant stand by and watch you self destruct!

james_85Z28

Mike- you have no proof I have a stroker. There's now way I could remove my engine, get it bored .030, clearanced, and have it back running in a couple days. That's almost impossible. IDon still hasn't come accross a good block for my needs and the recycler hasn't had a good one yet.

My combo needs a lot more work to extract all that it has. After all it is the details that get you the results that you want. Anybody can throw together some parts but that doesn't mean they will get the same results. I'm on chip revision "W" (started with "A'). I have made probably another 20-25 chips besided the approved revisions chips while at the racetrack and tuning sessions.

You refering the the dyno queens supra's that put down 500 RWHP on the dyno and then strruggle for low 13's ? I haven't been to the track in a while and you it runs a lot better than the last time you saw it at the track, at least for daily driving. It WILL definately be interesting the next time I take it down the 1/4 mile

89 TA

You guy's can add cubic inches, dyno tune, change your cams, intakes, whatever. None of that nonsensre is going to do squat at the track. As soon as I get my 3 feet tall carbon fiber wing I'll be doing 10's.

james_85Z28

10's? Most of us run the 1/4 mile. I think I run low 8's in the 1/8 mile.

BrandenCali

Not true Kevin is storying He sure is not using a 383 crank and the 200cc are not cast.. Now James far as I know Im sure he has his Afr caprice block in his car b/c he showed me. We all know Vincent put in a new cam.. So basicaly matters that every one has it together to finish off this fastest So Ca..

james_85Z28

I am too lazy to point at all the holes in Kevin's story

330hp_91RS

I would like to know what kind of #'s the car put down. I don't really see the point in not telling us.

If you are not telling us to make it suspensful to woop on everybody at the track, just because you put the power to the dyno doesn't always mean it goes to the pavement.

I know from experience with a car I have right now.

cali92RS

Ooooh James he sure told your a$$. He said quit trying to be so daaamn secretive and share like a true neighbor.

james_85Z28

hmmm?


So would my local competition who is spending thousands of dollars trying to catch up Look at the equipment I have and then search TGO for other dyno results that have the same equipment I have listed.


This message wasn't directed at you anyways. This post had no point. It is just a waste of bandwidth.


It puts the power down at the track and is currently the quickest N/A car in our little club. It has run a best posted time of 12.63@110 at Fontana.

It's probably your driving as to why you are not getting the results you thought you would get.

...

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

So would my local competition who is spending thousands of dollars trying to catch up
Who would that be?

RWB____s

No its Not

james_85Z28

You car isn't smoggable and has to be trailered to the track so it doesn't count

james_85Z28

YOU

VINCENT
KEVIN

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

You must be joking, I don't know anyone but you who has spent thousands.

VincentZ28

iTrader: (2)

Re: Re: Catch up

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by james_85Z28
YOU

VINCENT
KEVIN



Don, Kevin an I have spent less than $500 to get our cars back on the road. Kevin an I had broken valve springs and bent valves. Don fix Kevin's head and mine was fix by Trick Flow for free except for the shipping fees.

So, what you had done to your car in the last 8 months has cost you over $4000. You know, AFR heads, LPE219 cam, Super Ram, an all of the suspension mods.

Come on now, who robbed the bank?

RWB____s

There are those who have worked hard all there lives, and payed their dues of hard lessons learned. They earned the money through hard work and their knowledge from those lessons to be able to work on their cars and invest in their cars
the way they see fit. They go fast because they earned it!

They also know that they can save alot of grief for those who are still learning by sharing their knowledge in the hope that they can help someone to learn and not to make the same mistakes.

The biggest mistake that I personnally took along time to learn,
is that know matter how much money you invest in a car, there is always someone with more "knowledge" that can do more for less money invested. Trying to maintain top dog status is a loosing and expensive battle that you can not win and can only cause you to loose friends .

As for my own vehicle, I trailered it because I choose to. It saves me money from driving expenses, and from calling a tow truck if I break at a event. It is my LAST car that I will ever invest
the hard work and MONEY to do what I want with it and when its gone, I'll probably purchase a nice little foriegn car, and share my own knowledge with someone who needs and appreciates it.

I realize that there IS always someone faster "smog" legal or not. I just hope that they earned that status thru hard work
and helping others along the way

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

OWNED!!!!

I bought new valve springs, new rocker arms, had my headers coated, and gaskets to put it back together in the last month. Tell me where that adds up to thousands of dollars?

I think this deserves a new thread. :lala:

james_85Z28

The suspension mods only make me faster and more controlled in the turns, not at the dragstrip. And most of my suspension mods are well over a year old. All those mods you listed were done a year ago. Time flies. $4K ? I hate to break it to you but all those mods cost less than $1K out of pocket, imagine that. And if you want to apply some funky accounting than the actual investment that bought all those goodies, the actual cost was probably less than $200. Besides, I had to move up to a SR combo just to get to where you were at. I have a driving handicap that can only be overcome the old fashioned way: with superior horsepower. Perhaps if my dad had years or porting heads under his belt I could of saved some money and had my initial procurement of edelbrock heads worked over. But having the 165cc edelbrock heads worked over to gain the 30 CFM I needed was a gamble and I wanted a sure thing.


I wasn't refering to that alone. Actually Kevin should have been excluded since he doesn't put any real money into his car (gas and go). But what I was refering to was new heads for Don, extrude honing your SR, new cam for you.

You guys still have a better/stonger rear (9-bolt) as well as 1.75" headers. Plus Don and Kevin have Don's custom fabbed 2.5" y-pipe and dual cats compared to my stock SLP 2.25 y-pipe and single 3" cat. Two 2.5" cats have 44+% more intake area than a single 3" cat. Weren't the dual cat cars rated 10-15 HP more than a similar equipped single car car from the factory?

Man you have a low threashold for ownage But I guess you are pretty biased on this one

You gotta know that all this internet bravado, while intimidating (?) to those outside the loop, is just that: Internet Bravado. There will always be someone faster. I haven't met you but from what Don has told me you have one hell of a car.

EDIT: Damn my typing/grammar has been real sloppy lately

Dwayne88IROC

:lala: :lala: :lala:





When's the next drag GTG?

And I'm not talking about the attire.

james_85Z28

You'll have to go against Raul with your stroker. I won't be racing until I get my truck running again.

Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

Count me in if you guys get a dyno day together, but give me a few months. The camaro is still in the body shop. Engine is nearly done, just need to get a built 700R4 now, or possibly a T56, but most likely a 700r4.

Engine Specs
355, blueprinted and balanced
All forged internals (ZZ4 crank, TRW pistons, forged rods, all ARP)
LT4 Hot cam
AFR 195's - inline with their CNC numbers
1.6 rollers
Full MSD ignition - 6al, billet distributer, etc...
Lingenfelter Super ram with 58mm TB
Walbro fuel pump 255lph
AFPR
Stewart stage II water pump

I am hoping for a little power

Dwayne88IROC

Looks like my combo, cept for the displacement. What compression are you going with?

"inline with their CNC numbers" What does that mean?
Stewart is the way to go!

What TB and AFPR?

Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

My compression ratio is 9.26:1. Though I know a 9.75:1 or higher is possible because of the aluminum and I would make a lot more power, I decided to go with a lower compression for a few reasons.

1. This is going to be semi daily driven convertible so gas mileage or the ability to use 87 or 89 came to mind. Though honestly it will probably always get 91.

2. Since it is a convertible I cant even touch the track as this car will definetly go faster than 14.99 and I am going for show and go with the SS hood and hi rise spoiler and all.

3. If I ever decide to spray it or put a supercharger on it, It will more than handle it. Stock l98 is supposed to be 9.5:1 and ATI makes a procharger for stock applications, with the aluminum heads, forged internals and lower CR I should be able to run higher boost on the same octane... But I will move this engine to a coupe before supercharging it.

As far as the AFPR, to be honest I am not sure, but it is billet. Came with the Super ram. The TB is lingenfelter's 58mm TB. Not legal in California, but Im not going to tell the smog police that

Here are some numbers for my heads:

Intake
.050 lift - 36.5
.150 lift - 104.5
.250 lift - 171.8
.350 lift - 218.2
.450 lift - 252.8
.500 lift - 261.9
.550 lift - 268.1
.560 lift - 271.2

Exhaust
.050 lift - 26.1
.150 lift - 77.5
.250 lift - 130.1
.350 lift - 162.5
.450 lift - 186.5
.500 lift - 194.5
.550 lift - 199.8
.560 lift - 205.1

The guys who recently did the serdi valve job to them said they could port these a LOT more if I wanted it, but that is a lot of flow for the street as it is. Hoping for 425/425. I think with good tuning I should hit it.

James

Dwayne88IROC

I'm not sure how a TB can be illegal unless it's be modified and sold with out a CARB license. No biggy.

If you introduce power adders later on I'd look into a ductile Iron top ring. Takes more to break in but will last longer when more heat/pressure/fuel is added later.

Good flow on the heads.

Jstcrzyengh

iTrader: (2)

Yeah i dont get the TB thing either, but it says it right here:

http://www.lingenfelter.com/lingenfe...=16&pf%5Fid=50

I guess more air means more fuel so it means more smog ??? I will never figure out CARB.