The box I constructed for my JL Audio 12W3v2 points directly into the hatch window (it allows just enough clearance for the hatch to close with the privacy cover attached). From what I've read, a mount such as this typically gets better "kick" whereas a rear facing mount gets better low end. Unfortunately, certain songs by bands like Breaking Benjamin (their first CD), Disturbed, and Godsmack, sound like the sub is turned off for the drum kick but bass guitar notes are still there. All I hear is the weak high-passed (80 Hz at 12 dB/octave) drum kick from my components up front. Since the sub's driver cone is actually out of the well, I think I'm running into the same problem as people who put their subs in the back seat.
I played around with holding the box sideways in the well and this improved the sound on those songs greatly, but the hatch won't close with the box like that.
I want to build a new box anyway, since this one is odd-shaped and wastes a lot of room. If I fiberglassed a new box that fit in the bottom of the well, but still had the driver pointing up, it might sound pretty good since the driver cone would be lower in the well. Has anybody tried something different?

My setup is here:
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/804104/2

 

The position of the sub has more to do with what you hear than the direction it's facing. In any case, the difference in position from facing the subs up to facing them back is minor enough that although the differences are probably audible, they are certainly not dramatic. Your problem sounds to me like it's more of a tuning issue, not a sub placement issue. My subs are facing straight up in a "conventional" arrangement and the impact from the kick drum in some of those same songs is clearly audible.

It's very hard as a listener to be able to distinguish the bass of the kick drum with the bass from the bass guitar. This is one of those things that really separates a good system from the rest.

This "blending" of sound, in my experience, is usually either due to a ridiculously cheap sub in a sh*tty install, or a situation where your midbass/midrange is either not up to snuff or not integrating well with the sub.

Since you've got good subs, and I assume your install is competent, I think we can rule out the first possibility. This leaves your midbass/midrange and it's integration to with the sub.

Before I get too far into that, I want to explain why the midrange is effecting your bass sound. A 50hz tone created by a kick drum or a 50hz tone created by a bass guitar really doesn't sound that much different if you're only listening to the fundamental. What gives 2 different instruments their recognizable sound is the amount of overtones. If your bass guitar or your kick drum has a 50hz fundamental, it's also got a bunch of overtones. Even order overtones would occur at 100hz, 200hz, 400hz etc. It's the amount and level of these overtones that makes something sound different than a single frequency test tone. Since your bass drum works somewhere in the 40-60hz range, almost all of your harmonics are going to be played through your midrange driver.

So... we've established that your midrange is primarily responsible for playing the junk that allows you to recognize whether you're hearing a bass drum or a bass guitar. So, why isn't yours working? The most common reason is usually that there's a frequency gap between the woofer filter and where your midrange takes over. A perfect example of this is somebody that's running 4x6s in the dash and subs with an 80hz filter. The 4x6s aren't worth a damn below 150 or 200hz, so you wind up with a big gap where the majority of your 2nd to 4th harmonics are. All you hear is the midrange & highs, along with the unrecognizable "boom boom boom" from your subs.

Similarly, you may wind up in a situation where you DO have speakers that can play clean down to the sub's crossover frequency, but you have a phase misalignment between the woofers and mids that are causing a similar suck-out. Playing with polarity of woofers and mids can help this. You can get even better results if you have any processors that allow you to infinately adjust the phase of signals, or allow you to introduce delay.

Thirdly, you may just have a situation where your midranges are improperly installed or too low of a quality to cleanly reproduce the signals in that midbass range that's critical to making your bass sound "clean".

I hope this helps.

 

The sub is solid, the box is solid (although funny shaped).

I realize that different bands use different fundamental frequencies for their bass drum kick, which has been helpful for finding the problem.
Here is how I would divide bass drum kick levels in my car.

Group 1 - really pound, seem to have a particularly low fundamental frequency:
Creed, Linkin Park, Fuel, Three Doors Down (Kryptonite CD ONLY), Breaking Benjamin (We Are Not Alone CD, except "Cold" and "Away"), Metallica ("One"), and Staind.

Group 2 - quieter than the first group (due to actual recording levels, not because of my setup) but I can still feel a solid fundamental frequency that is relatively low :
Sister Hazel, Barenaked Ladies, 311, Hoobastank, Disturbed's newer stuff like "Prayer," Eve 6 "Sunset Strip B*tch," Metallica "Nothing Else Matters."

Group 3 - all I hear is a weaker overtone from the midbass without the fundamental frequency from the sub (if I can't feel it in my seat, it seems to me that its the sub's fault, not the midbass):
Disturbed's "Stupify" CD, Godsmack, Theory of a Deadman, 12 Stones, Breaking Benjamin (anything from Saturate CD and "Cold" and "Away" from the new CD), Metallica ("Sad But True," "Enter Sandman").

My sub might as well not be there for group 3.

A midbass integration problem would just lead to an "unnatural" sound, but I should still feel a nice thump from the sub, regardless. I have spent time just listening to my sub, and just listening to my high-passed speakers, so I know what "unnatural" sounds like from those particular speakers. I'm sure there are some integration details that I will need to work out later since the 5.25" Infinity Kappa's (mine are in custom kick panels, unsealed) are known to have relatively weak midbass, but I'm hesitant to place all the blame on them. Do your midbass speakers vibrate the seat high passed at 80 hz? Mine vibrate the kick panel, and my foot, but that's about it. I also know I'm getting to at least 100 Hz (if not lower) with my mids because I can fiddle with the bass boost at that frequency and hear a noticeable change.
As far as phase goes, I was extremely careful hooking up the speakers, so I don't think they're wired wrong. I will still play with this to see what happens. I may need to use time delay to clean things up, but I will cross this bridge when I come to it.

I have watched the sub play the drum kick for group 3 songs with the hatch open and the other speakers disconnected but it sounds incredibly weak (lower relative volume, can't feel it) compared to the bass guitar notes of the same songs (higher relative volume, can feel it). I even temporarily low-passed the sub at 200 Hz thinking that maybe the cutoff was too low and was missing some drum kicks with a higher fundamental frequency, and that didn't make a difference either.

The only thing that made a difference was tilting the box sideways and pointing the cone into the well. When I did this, the kick frequencies returned for the group 3 songs, even with the hatch open.


On a side note, anyone know where I can buy a good test frequency cd? I wonder if they have drum kicks with different fundamental frequencies
I'm sure I could find the problem really fast with one of those - I could test all the speakers individually.

Oh yeah, thanks for taking the time to respond. Ever think of writing a book? I'm sure you could answer all my questions before I even think them up.

 

tone cds are expensive.... id say stick with some serious songs.... or download the tones online.....

 

THREE SIX MAFIA just my 4 cents

 

actually i personally like to use lil jon - what they gon do and lil jon - blow

 

hell yeah hes got some bump bump in the trunk trunk also

but LATE NITE TIP pretty goooddd

 

yea but the thing is.. my system hits harder to lil jons hits than the tip.. my ****e just doesnt get low enuff lol

 

Problem isn't with the low end guys... But those songs do have some serious bass.
I can play Ludacris' Get Back or some Linkin Park until my head hurts, but that won't solve the problem
Must be nice havin Lil Jon's job - make ridiculous money following the big names around lookin like a drunk idiot and all you have to say is 3 words....

 

the problem is that when you have a sub reflect off the glass you HAVE to compensate with an EQ... the higher bass will make your ears bleed...

rear-facing boxes have much deeper bass... as I've tried several designs in my car...

a dual 12" upwards box will hit hard... and a single 10" truck box in the well facing backwards could EASILY have deeper bass... just not pound as hard.

you can always use an EQ and dampen some of that high bass... I have to CUT everything over 80... or I cut everything over 50, and I use a -6db curve... then I use the "bass boost" on the amp to boost the low end that you almost completely lose with a glass-reflection box

if I had it my way, I'd build a rear-facing dual 15" box... that fit in the well. Plus that way people couldn't just walk by and see your subs throught the windows.

 

Maybe if I put it in caps, some of you will read what I already wrote in previous posts.

I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE LOW END, EVEN WITH IT REFLECTING OFF THE GLASS. THEREFORE, IT WOULD BE STUPID TO USE BASS BOOST.
also,
I HAVE THE SUB LOW PASSED AT 80 HZ. There is no problem with too much midbass - that is what my other speakers are for.

THE PROBLEM IS WITH DRUM KICK FOR CERTAIN BANDS - read post above to find out which ones.

 

drum kicks are almost always higher than 80hz, have you tried raising your LPF?

 

Are you sure about that? I thought the fundamental frequency for drum kick would be within the sub range under 80 Hz. I have tried raising the filter and it just increases the annoying "boom" and still does not fix the problem - see post above where I said:
"I even temporarily low-passed the sub at 200 Hz thinking that maybe the cutoff was too low and was missing some drum kicks with a higher fundamental frequency, and that didn't make a difference either."

 

IMO you should look more at what Jim said. Getting a sub to work well in a camaro isn't to hard. Getting a good mid bass/midrange is a bit tought as there is no real room for them. We have noplace in the door to add anthing and most kickpanel setups tend to lack due to lack of air space. Play around with you mids polarity somtime this helps depending on the type of xover they have. Do you have an eq? You may beable to cut a few lower frequencies to improve you mids sound.

 

well if your drum kicks are truly deep bass, then I still say it's the glass-reflection that's the problem...

have you tried covering your subs, like with the t-top bag, and raise the gain on the amp?

for me that improves the sound...

 

I'm thinking that once I sound proof the entire car, I will be able to see what is going on, and check all the wiring for sure while everything is torn apart. I may fiberglass the rear 6x9 area to help out the midbass, since they're not really doing anything in that department right now. I listened to my front components alone and they sound ok, but part of the problem is the kick panels I have are almost sealed and pretty small, so the woofers aren't getting enough space to sound the way they should. That will probably make a difference.
I don't think putting anything over the sub's cone and raising the gain is a good idea, if it's set right in the first place. I have noticed that the sub sounds better when the well is mostly empty vs. when I have stuff around the box.
BTW, Jim gives good advice with his eyes closed, and is almost always right

 

Ill agree jim is the man.

But the thing is...Some rock bands just dont produce good bass. Bass is best when suited with like techno or rap cause its truly made for it. While rock bands Im sure concentrate on how the bass sounds. I dont think they use as much precision as techno/rap.

Sorry if anyone took offense to what I said...

NEway. Id say tune your amps/speakers/head unit or maybe even get an EQ. You can get one from a magazine/ebay for like 25.00 I think that hatches prolly provide one of the best sounds for subs probably because its such of an open space.

If y0ur good with wood you can make your own box the way you want. I would also look into your head unit. Does it have 3 sets of preouts? Whats the voltage on the preouts? How much did you pay for it? Whats the settings you can control on it? Alpine and clarion are very nice head units from my experience.

 

The headunit is a problem. I would be much happier if I had a subwoofer output with variable volume control - that would make a lot of difference. Its a 4 or 5 year old JVC, and I paid more than enough just to get one that played MP3 (at the time, it was an expensive feature). I couldn't afford a nice one with other important stuff, and I didn't think I would be doing nearly as much as I have done to my car. At that time, I thought subs were only for ghetto rides. I'm getting 2 Volts of output, so its good, but its not great by today's standards.
An EQ would be nice, too, because I could have different settings for different types of music. The current head unit has a 100 Hz setting, and a 10,000 Hz setting, so it's virtually useless. I don't think I will buy a separate EQ - I will just make sure my next head unit has a nice one built in, hopefully with other signal processing capabilities like time delay.
I agree that rock bands don't have the bass recording quality that rap/techno has, but that is not what I was referring to in my post. For instance, "When I'm Gone" by Three Doors Down has weak drum kick, no matter where I play it - songs like this weren't included in the list. I was just referring to songs that have bass (drum kick in particular), but I wasn't getting enough in my car. The rankings have nothing to do with how the recording actually sounds...
I've heard some great systems with Alpine and Clarion head units, but I'm not a fan of the styling that goes into either brand.

 

well you just answered your own question. You dont have sub pre out with a sepperate volume control **** for the subs, tuning options on your head unit, or many other features alot of the better head units today offer. I say save up some cash and buy a nicer head unit.(usually cost like around 300). I bet youll notice a huge difference. I know I did going from a jensen single preout to a alpine tri preout with mp3 and tuning features I sure did.

Not to say clarion and alpine are the only good head units but they are prolly a few of the better ones you can get for decent money. I havent had any experience with Pioneer or Eclipse or anything but I say look around and see what you like.

Nate

 

Like I said, the head unit is part of the problem and it is next on the chopping block if I'm going to replace equipment. I will explore some of the other options first that will improve what I already have in one way or another - the sound deadener will go in for sure, a new sub box (if for no other reason than to improve looks and space), fiberglassing 6x9 space.

Well, at least I have a game plan now Thanks guys!

 

just so you know, auto time alignment ruins the sound... big time.

You lose a lot of frequency range and the positioning of the sound is akward, to say the least.

I wouldn't put that as one of the important things you are looking for... maybe a better EQ... even all those extra DSP features you speak of are 100% worthless.

Every deck I have ever had ruins the sound when you put on BBE/BMX/LOUD/SRSWOW

they usually kill the midbass and increase the highs and lows, nothing extraordinary.

 

Something I noticed which may play a role in why the sound seems better with the sub facing rearward is the huge cavity you have around the box.

One advantage with the 3rd and 4th gen f-bods is the megaphone effect of the rear hatch. In order to take full effect of this the rear well should be closed off from the face of the sub.

With the open area you have around and under the sub box some of the frequencies may be bouncing off the bottom of the well (as well as the side walls) and reflecting back toward the soundwaves produced by the sub. If they're just the wrong distance from each other (the waves from the subs and the reflected waves from the well) they can cancel each out from being near 180* out of phase.

Since (IIRC) these cars have a natural cabin gain in the 40-60Hz range, that may be where the problem is coming from.

 

Maybe it's just me, but these two statements seem contradictory. I'm not sure how the huge cavity around the box leads to good sound, and yet to take advantage of the megaphone effect the rear well should be closed off.

Are you saying that its better if the box takes up the entire rear well, or its better if it takes up only part of it? Maybe a diagram would help.

I am thinking that there is some cancellation in my case.

 

I just want to take a minute to comment about the idea that facing your subs up somehow changes the frequency response and requires you to "eq" your bass. That is simply not true. The sound waves at the frequencies that the subwoofers deal with are so large that absolutely NO cancellation or reinforcement will occur between the woofers and the hatch.

There are situations where you can get partial cancellation near the frequencies where the wavelength is a multiple of the length from the back of the interior to the front. This is the same type of problem that tends to occur with subs in the trunk of a car, and why it gets louder if you move the sub all the way to the back of the trunk.

This is a similar situation in a thirdgen and why you will have a noticable difference in bass when you put your subs where the back seat is, but the few inches you move them by facing them back instead of straight up is essentially neglegable. The difference is probably audible, but I would guess very minor. Maybe when I get my testing rig set up I'll try to take some measurements.

 

so there is no way the BROWN soundwave can cancel any of the other sound waves? it bounces around so much before it actually gets to your ears that it could theoretically be 180 degrees off.

you could follow the path on paper with a compass and protractor, and find out EXACTLY how far it's off... I guess it's possible it's 0 degrees off, but then it would still be delayed...

Before anyone laughs, I made that pic in MS Paint so that's why it's so crappy.

 

There's no way you're getting a 180* phase shift between the primary wave and one that reflects off a surface less than a foot away. At 80hz, the soundwave is 14 feet long. If my math is correct, at a distance away from the reflective surface that's equal to 1/4 the wavelength, you can potentially get 100% cancellation (under ideal conditions... in reality the reflected wave won't contain 100% of the energy, so you'll never get 100% cancellation). 1/4 of the 14 foot wave is 3.5 feet. This is an achievable situation in a sedan with a large trunk. Face the woofers forward and they're probably a good 3-4 feet from the back of the trunk. In a thirdgen, your subs are typically within 12" of the rear of the vehicle. Again, if my math is correct, a 12" distance equates to approximately a 51 degree phase shift. While this will have a measurable effect on the sound at 80hz, it will not be substantial.

Drop down to 60hz and your phase shift between primary and reflected is only 38 degrees.

 

well then I'm still a bit confused as to why bass sounds deeper when its rear-facing... is that just because of the high-frequency cut-off that happens naturally since the woofer is not directly reflecting sound waves to your ears?

 

I personally think that has a little to do with it, but I think it has more to do with a quasi-horn loading effect associated with the shape of the hatch. When you move the sub farther back or deeper into the well, you're pushing it closer to the throat of the horn.

If I ever get any free time I'm going to need to do some testing to find out just how much of a legitimate difference there is compared to how much of a difference people just *think* they hear.

 

I think this is the problem I'm hearing. If I'm standing outside my car with the hatch open, its almost like the sub is turned off probably because there is little horn-loading effect.

LOL on the diagram, scrapmaker. Good work, tho

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on the picture of the box in the rear of your car, there are two big gaps between the sides of the car and the speaker box, correct?

That's what I'm talking about. Similar to what Jim was saying about how moving the box to the rear seat area will probably produce less sound that if the speaker was in the rear of the car because of cancellation.

Use the picture that Scrap made and move the speaker more toward the rear of the car similar to how you have your box. Then extend the brown lines from top of the sub to the bottom of the deck lid, then down to the floor of the storage well, then back up to the glass, then forward toward the passanger compartment.

As Jim said, the length of the sound waves below 60Hz are really long and may not have enough time to become 180* out of phase, but sound waves that large are less linear. They can bounce off of ALL the walls in the rear of the car with the way you have the box. Count how many angles and flat spots are in the rear well and that's how many the sound waves from your sub are bouncing off of. Off the top of my head I can think of 10 WITHOUT counting the sides and bottom of the box itself.

If you were to isolate the sub from the area behind it you can reduce the number of angles to 5.

It's similar to why corner loading home audio subs works better than just setting them in the middle of the room.

Again, this is just a hunch based on what you said as well as my similar experiences with these cars and differnet enclosures.

 

A soundwave isn't really going to bounce around like that. It's great to think of a sound wave as a wave with a specific length, and in most ways it behaves like that, but you do have to remember that what we're actually talking about is a compression and rarefaction of the air. In a car environment, the only dimension that you really need to concern yourself with is the longest one. The rest are too short to matter, and you can calculate reflection until your calculator smokes, but when you're dealing with pressure inside a car, it really boils down to the longest dimension.

 

hey Jim, how does an audio system sound in your vette? are the kickpanels in good locations, and the rear fill, and do the subs bounce off the hatch like in our thirdgens?

I've always wondered.

 

Well, mine specifically sounds horrible, but I hope to fix that right after I finish up my kick panel project.

The position of the front speakers is pretty good for imaging. It's rather far forward. The enclosure space is small, but you can cram a 5.5" woofer and an oversized tweeter in there without much fuss.

There's plenty of room in back for a couple subs and an amp, but you wind up with NO luggage space at all.

Right now the car has 4 blown JL coaxes, a screwed up Eclipse 5 channel amp and a pair of 10W0 subs.

I've got a 10" Adire Koda sub, a Rockford 360a2 and a 4 channel pioneer amp waiting to go in as soon as I get time to build the box/amp rack. For the front stage I'm going to build a custom set of components from whatever appeals to me at the time.

For the time being I'm going to stick with my Eclipse (e-skips) head unit and 8 disk changer. Down the road I'm hoping to upgrade to the Alpine 9835 or 9855 so that I can have a quick and easy active crossover setup to play with.

 

Screw all the technical mumbo jumbo.

I'd bet $100 that if the face of the sub was completely serperated from the rear well that the problem you're having would be eliminated.

 

Yeah, screw physics.

 

yeah screw physics, just put in a baffle board and put in 3 15"s... then you're good to go.

 

ill put 2 18s and then ill never have to worry about physics.. just my windows blowing from the pressure.... oh yeah thats physics.. but ill accept the 100 on behalf of everyone

 

I meant screw writing all the technical stuff.

Now I know why I don't bother coming into the Car Audio section much anymore. You guys take the fun out of car audio and turn it into some analytical BS.

 

Physics takes a lot out of the guess-work, so I wouldn't call it BS. However, some things are just techno-babble that don't make a bit of difference. It's best not to over-think the situation.

 

I guess that's what it boils down to.

As silly as it sounds, if the sub sounds better facing down, then face it down.

If you don't want it facing down, then build a box for it so it sits right in the rear well.

 

well i apologize for taking it too far with the technical babble.. but thats me, i love that stuff. either way if it works dont fix it and if it works without explaination use it

 

For those of you that want to spend an eternity chasing the rainbow, simply feel free to ignore the right answers.

 

Some aspects of the physics are absolutely necessary, while some are a waste of a calculator (because you can't account for everything). It depends on if you will settle for 80% of perfect or 99% I typically fall closer to 99%.....

 

I'm with Jim, you need the physics...

but you also need good subwoofers and a good car to put them in...

physics is your best friend... plus it's my favorite science.

 

So after reading one of the links Jim posted in another email, I think i have identified the problem:
http://www.installer.com/tech/aiming2.html

Physics at work!
Looking at the SPL vs frequency graphs, it's almost eerie how the response in the Dodge Neon declines SHARPLY around 65HZ, which seems to be my problem range. The green trace goes from 100dB at 60Hz to 58dB at 100Hz - you probably can't even hear the 100Hz tone compared to the 60Hz tone with a difference of 42dB. The dip of the purple trace is far less pronounced.
Since I have my components in kick panels, its hard to get them to make up the difference in that range (if they were in the doors, they would go lower - I now have them high-passed around 95Hz at 12db/octave, so those songs that sounded bad due to loud overtones with no fundamentals have now been upgraded to "OK," but still nowhere near what I think they should be). Sub is now low-passed at 95Hz, to make up some of the difference, which hasn't been much if the response is dropping off in my car as bad as it did in the Neon. Surprisingly, it hasn't moved my soundstage back too far. It only sounds funny if I turn my head completely to the side so one ear is towards the windshield, and the other is towards the hatch.

Based on the advice from that website, I was thinking about making a box like Disturbthepeace made, shown here:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=146179

It would also solve the problem of an ugly box that takes up an awkward amount of space - with a flat box deep in the well, I could at least put stuff on top of it if I had to and perhaps move my amps so I can store my t-tops again. Would there be any problems with the bass needing to escape through the small hole in the top mdf panel or around the sides of the box to reach the front of the car?

Now that I think about it, Bazooka bass tubes have been using the idea of firing a woofer cone directly into the corner for years now to improve their efficiency. They must be on to something even though their sound isn't all that great (probably because their products are made from paper).

 

Keep in mind that the big dip at 100hz in the neon occurred with the sub approximately 3 feet away from the trunk. If you wade through my math above, you'll find that cancellation at 80hz occurs at approximately 3.5 feet. Cancellation at 100hz would be somewhere around 3 feet or a hair below, which perfectly matches the Neon problem.

But... your sub is maybe what, a foot from the rear right now? Moving the sub like Disturbthepeace's setup is going to position the sub about 4 or 5" from the rear of the car. This is a minimal difference and I will be surprised if this does anything to fix your problem.

Your problem is that your midbass isn't extending low enough, which oddly enough, is what I said in the first place.

 

I have to keep my midbass low as well.. otherwise my 6x9's rattle...

just make sure whatever you do, you don't have an audio-less gap.... set the sub at <=100hz and the highs >=100hz.... a 12db cut-off works wonders, if you have the ability

I can set my subs to 18db cutoff... sound even better in my opinion.

 

When I started this thread, I wasn't sure if the problem was with the midbass or sub. However, after listening to my mids for long enough, I knew they weren't getting low enough (and consequently decided there wasn't much I could do about it), which is why I switched gears to figure out why the sub couldn't get high enough to make up the difference. I would rather have the imaging be off than be totally lacking some frequencies.

My three choices this whole time have been:
1. Buy the component set you're building. Although this would be ideal, I can't afford it. Even if I had known about the set before I bought the Infinity's, I still couldn't afford it.
2. Buy a set of midranges for the doors. I wouldn't want to do this because I don't want to make any changes to the car that I can't change back. I also like the cupholders where they are. If I adjust anything for better mids, I will be enclosing the 6x9 area with fiberglass.
3. Compensate for lost frequencies with the sub. Apparently it's current orientation won't allow this. Using the new design, I should be making better use of any horn loading effect that you mentioned earlier. Even if it sounds exactly the same, this will STILL serve a dual purpose because it will be much more pleasing to look at and I will have a place to store the t-tops. A couple of inches made a big difference for the Bazooka tube, so I wouldn't be so sure that a couple inches wouldn't make a difference in this application.
4. Screw it all and give up. LOL. I don't ever give up.

If I had the time and the money, I would have been building a set of custom comps/crossover/enclosure and not messing with the Infinity's or buying somebody else's kick panels. I enjoy the fabrication process as much as the final reward, just as most of you do. Unfortunately, I have to do the best with what I have at my disposal.

Sorry to be a huge pain, but I appreciate you guys taking the time to answer my questions. I should have defined my situation and objectives a little better

 

in my experience...... putting the sub facing rearward boost the low end but not the midranges...... putting it facing the glass on the hump right behind the seat had better mid

 

Before you build the new enclosure, I'd experiment with raising the sub crossover frequency a bit (Which I think you've been doing, but I'm too lazy to re-read). Take it up to 150 and even 200hz. I guarantee that 200hz will sound like ***, but at least you'll begin to be able to identify what upper limits you can take the sub to before it gets sh*tty sounding. This will help you determine what kind of low frequency extension that you'll absolutely need out of your main speakers for next time. For now, build the box. You said yourself that even if it doesn't drastically improve your situation, you'll have better asthetics and t-top storage.