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Old 06-10-2004, 09:16 PM   #1
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A little teaser- 6pot/13" under a 16" Iroc rim

Parts just arrived. Now the custom work begins. I have to have the hats center hole machined larger to fit all the way down onto the aluminium hubs. The base is 3.06" and the hat hole is 2.75". They fit centric on the first hub portion, but won't fit snug the last 1/2"( I knew this prior to ordering the hubs that they would take a custom hat). Then its fitting the setup onto a spindle and mounting the caliper. Going to pick up a spare set of spindles to alter on Saturday.

Stay tuned- It will take me a few weeks to get everything finished through my machinist. I have to do a little work on the center hub sections of the Iroc rims also to fit the aluminium hubs- lug pattern works, but the I.D. of the rims center needs to be opened slightly.
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Old 06-11-2004, 01:49 AM   #2
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Those the Global West hubs?
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Old 06-11-2004, 02:05 AM   #3
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Yep. I'll document everything and list prices & part#'s once I'm finished-just like in the post I did on the rears.
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Old 06-11-2004, 02:26 AM   #4
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Were the 4 piston ones spohn has not enough brake for you? Those are probably what I'm gonna go with, as I beleive they are top quality from listening to you and others.

I was also wondering, won't you eventually reach a point where bigger brakes just arent gonna mkae any more difference? I dont really know how to explain what I'm thinking, but I would think there has to be a limit. We cant just keep adding larger rotors, bigger calipers, and more pistons. Eventually, the tires just wont be able to grip enough to stop a 3500 lb. car from moving. If that wasnt the case, why dont they design brakes with dual calipers. Have two 4 piston calipers on oppositte sides of the rotor.

By the way, those look sweet, and are gonna look amazing on your car
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Old 06-11-2004, 07:43 AM   #5
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you are sort of right mavrick, yes we out power the tires. BUT it comes down to heat management. while you may lock the tires up easily once (our stockers can do that) 20 laps into a road-racing session, it is not so easy. that is why there is the need for big brakes. it helps to disapate the heat created, so that the brakes don't 'fade'. that is the reason for the large rotors, the multiple pistons are for pad life, not just clamping force, they use differing size pistons to keep the pad from wearing unevenly (pad taper)

Dean, those look great. i would love to see the diminsions for mounting the caliper. if i remeber my wilwood tech well enough, the 6piston has the same mounting as the 4 pistons that are in the spohn kit. i have really considered going to a 13"x1.25 custom coleman rotor, to use the wilwood calipers on my setup.
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Old 06-11-2004, 03:26 PM   #6
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These are radial mount calipers with a 5"spread/ the superlites are a 3.5"spread. I opted to go with 12.90"x1.25" rotors rather than the 13.06" rotors (even though they would fit no problem) because there is much stronger options in the 12.90" catagory if I ever need a heavier GT rotor (to handle higher heat) for any reason. The little 10.5 brake system works great for stopping power(Mines fully aftermarket products though) however I overheat the crap out of them and am constantly hotspotting rotors. I wanted a little overkill without adding extra unsprung weight. These hopefully will handle what I through at it occationally.

The 4piston superlite's actually have slightly more power than the 6-piston SL-6's, however the SL-6's handle heat better and perform much more consistent. Power is not a problem, reliability is my main focus along with smooth operation and even surface temps across the pads(as Dewey stated)
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Old 06-11-2004, 08:21 PM   #7
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Stock size 1987 10.5" x1.0"rear rotor on left (Not front- front is much heavier). 12.90"x1.25" on right with hat & rotor bolts.

I weighed them for comparison and the larger units are only 0.6 lbs heavier.

New calipers are lighter from 1pot iron cal- compared to 6pot alum cal. Hubs are lighter also than the steel center on the 1pc 10.5" stock front rotor hub area(don't have exact weights yet till I pull one off the car, but am certain of this) Overall, the larger 13"system should be equal or lighter than the smaller stock configuration.
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Old 06-11-2004, 11:21 PM   #8
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damn.... dean, that looks great!
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Old 06-12-2004, 12:12 PM   #9
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very nice....do you have any pictures of your brake ducting? I would like to set up some cooling ducts, but I'm not exactly sure how you mount them, or where you want the air to flow over. would it be over the caliper, or over the rotor right after it leaves the caliper, or does it even matter?

Also, I noticed the actual rotor on that setup isnt really any wider than the old setup. I guess thats the whole point with the 2-peice rotors, to save weight. I was just thinking, with more rotor, you have more material to dissipate the heat and keep the rotors cool. With all the holes and the limited amount of actual rotor, I would think it would heat up fairly quickly. Then again, that means it wont retain its heat as long, and will cool down quicker. But will it really have time to cool down, i dont know

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Old 06-12-2004, 12:18 PM   #10
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you want the air going into the center of the rotor, so that in then flows out throught the vaining. if you aim it directly at the rotor, you get one side of the rotor cooler than the other, you do not want that.
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Old 06-12-2004, 12:48 PM   #11
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thanks, that makes. Wasn't thinknig about that. Do you have any pics of your setup?
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Old 06-12-2004, 07:19 PM   #12
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Beautiful looking set-up Dean. Very impressive. Will you be able to try fitting a GTA front wheel over those at some point? I know it seems a strange request, but the options are a tad limited for those of us GTA owners who wish to keep the stock wheels. I was considering the kit from Dan/Alloy/Spohn but it doesn't fit. Dan is looking into trying two piece rotors and says it will fit, but he doesn't know anyone he can borrow a GTA wheel from.
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Old 06-12-2004, 09:49 PM   #13
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Beautiful looking set-up Dean. Very impressive. Will you be able to try fitting a GTA front wheel over those at some point? I know it seems a strange request, but the options are a tad limited for those of us GTA owners who wish to keep the stock wheels. I was considering the kit from Dan/Alloy/Spohn but it doesn't fit. Dan is looking into trying two piece rotors and says it will fit, but he doesn't know anyone he can borrow a GTA wheel from.
I believe the Spohn kit is 1.10"thick rotors, these are thicker at 1.25". Also my calipers are mcuh wider because my pads are thicker I believe than the superlite calipers.

This project is totally custom from stock or 1LE- the hubs are not the same face offset to mount the wheel (slightly shallower), and the center of the hub is larger than the 3rd gen steel units because of the Alumnium design- it needs to be thicker for strength. My Iroc rims will not bolt on without modification to the back center portion of the rims. So no, I think the GTA's will not fit without grinding them out for starters.- I know the Irocs of mine won't. I know someone locally that has GTA gold lace rims(DynoDon)- I believe he just acquired a spare set for drag slicks- if I remember from reading a post of his. When I get this ready, I can swing by his shop and check with him quickly(He's very close by, and on the way to one of my business contacts) this will be a few weeks though. My next time off work I am gone on vacation.

The hats & hubs are going to the machinst on Monday to open the ID of the center hat portion to fit the hubs correctly. Then when they come back, I will have to properly fit the assembly onto the spindles and decide how to fit the calipers based on tolerances. These radial mount calipers can be shimed in two mounting directions, makes fitting/centering easier.
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Old 06-19-2004, 01:05 AM   #14
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I picked up the hats and hubs from my machinist today. Hat center hole I.D. was opened up to fit the billet GW hubs. Pieced it together on the spindle to check lineup and sure enough, like any custom project, the radial mount brackets I speculated on are not going to work (kinda knew something wouldn't, but I tried to order most of the parts ahead of time that I thought might) Anyways, they are going back and the new brackets aren't due in til July 8th. Then I can make up the spindle to caliper mount brackets.

For those that don't know what a radial mount caliper is, its the black piece with the two studs on it (Lower right in picture). This does not mount directly to the spindle, thus a bracket needs to be fabricated just like the 1LE kits do. A radial mount allows for shim adjustment in positioning the caliper center both radius and offset. Lug mount calipers only allow offset shimming.
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Old 06-21-2004, 07:43 AM   #15
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you are killing me dean. another month to wait
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Old 06-21-2004, 10:59 AM   #16
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Those look awesome!
Are those rotors a c5 vette kit? If so, do you know if those calipers are a direct replacement for the 4 piston superlights? If so, then this is a long shot but would you be offering the bracket dimensions to the public? It would save me a lot of down time that I can't afford with my daily driver.
I'm excited for you and your car, keep up the good work, it's the only thing that keeps me coming over to this board .
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Old 06-21-2004, 11:00 AM   #17
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you are killing me dean. another month to wait
Kills you? It kills me. I keep projects I am doing on my desktop where I have to stare at them daily until they get finished. The two that have set to the side the longest (about a year now) is my custom plenum and the custom SS CC V6 headers that PF&E custom made for me. Those two projects (though kinda combined into one) are the longest I have ever taken to install, fix, or repair in my life. They will not go on this motor though due to smog reasons- they were built for a new motor I will be putting together.

Its not my nature to start something and not finish it (the older my kid gets the harder that is getting). Today I am installing two more windows on my house (I have 4 finished, and 10 more still sitting in the garage waiting for my time off work- and they are NOT retrofit windows either- New construction style which means lots of install time)
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Old 06-21-2004, 11:18 AM   #18
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Those look awesome!
Are those rotors a c5 vette kit? If so, do you know if those calipers are a direct replacement for the 4 piston superlights? If so, then this is a long shot but would you be offering the bracket dimensions to the public? It would save me a lot of down time that I can't afford with my daily driver.
I'm excited for you and your car, keep up the good work, it's the only thing that keeps me coming over to this board .
Thank you.

I will display the bracket dimensions when I am finished with everything (No its not a kit) reason why I don't list things so far is because some things aren't the right parts and had to go back. Until I have a working model, nothing's of value to anyone.

Also, so you don't get your hopes up- even when I list the bracket dimensions in the future, I have GW billet alum "G"-body hubs that have a slightly inward offset than the stock 1LE rotorfaces. Those dimensions for shape and hole pattern would work (If the rotors are 12.90" dia), but the thickness would be different for you. Yhe thing I'm working on right now is which radial mount bracket will work best. I was actually debating first to use the ones pictured above (5"spread, 2.25 outer rise, and .45 inward offset mount lugs) to weld tabs permanatly onto the spindles (No need to fab a secondary bracket- for lightness and strength) but things did not quite fit into my comfort level with the 5" spread. I would have had to mill into the spindle area behind where the strut mounts to. I didn't want to play games with that structure area- this car pulls very hard corning forces. I now have a 3.5" spread with an entirely different mount design in the works involving the need for a separate mount bracket to be incorporated with this radial mount.

I'm playing the waiting game.

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Old 06-21-2004, 05:24 PM   #19
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That's on hell of a setup, Dean, and a lot of work. I commend you on the ongoing effort. My question is why did you go for the GW hubs? I know they're a top quality product but now it's gonna throw a lot of your other measurements off...why not just use a 1LE hub instead? Weight savings?

Ed
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Old 06-21-2004, 05:43 PM   #20
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Nice

Are you going to have to make up some braided hose or will the stock length hose work??
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Old 06-21-2004, 07:36 PM   #21
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My question is why did you go for the GW hubs? I know they're a top quality product but now it's gonna throw a lot of your other measurements off...why not just use a 1LE hub instead? Weight savings?

Ed
Unsprung weight mainly. Their was nothing wrong with the stopping power of my smaller brakes, matter of fact with the way I had them setup and the pads I ran, they NEVER faded on me even with moderate highspeed track use. The problem I faced was rotor warping. Now I've seen articles that say rotors don't warp, they hotspot- thats a bunch of crap, mine get so hot they warp and vibrate to heil when hot and smooth back out mostly when cooled back down. Crappy metal used to make stock style rotors. I didn't want the headache with upgrading to stock style 1LE's and risk having the same problems- no offense, but I think I still would with the magnitude I press this car.

Now my biggest concern is this car is no rocketship- never will be. The last thing I want to do is add alot of rotation weight and slow the car down more on acceleration (weight is a major factor). I still am add slightly more rotation weight from the larger circumfrence rotors- even thought the entire setup will be lighter unspung weight (handling is #1 priority on this car- thats what I decided to build it for).

Lastly, I like making things myself and having something different(why I also built a V6 car- I had a 350TPI + harness for this car free and I gave it away because I want something different). I need challanges in life- I get bored easy even though I am always busy. I'm no wealthy man by any means- just a bluecollar worker that has everything I own from working hard with my hands and always doing "ANYTHING" myself. You name it- and I have pretty much done it or tried it in life- My philosophy in life is " someone elses hands in this world built something, then mine can do the same"(nothing I can't do to a house, nothing- I'm a Tile contractor by profession- main income). I still need to try making carbon fiber someday thought- I am good with fiberglass (banged up my Vette a few times over the years running off course- Sh*t happens, lost the brakes on that once coming of a 135 mph straight and had to use the desert as a runoff- tore the front spoiler right of the nose and cracked the left front fender badly).

Lines will be custom from George at TMR. (good friend of a good friend Ilike those kind of friends) He'll moch them up for me in about 20 mins, and pressure test them.

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Old 07-06-2004, 01:12 AM   #22
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Shipment of parts now delayed further from 7/8/04 to 7/18/04.

This wait is fustrating.
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Old 07-06-2004, 02:56 AM   #23
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So those are the rotors and hats that fit a stock C5 setup I presume? (someone else asked above). If so, yikes!!!! I priced them out and Wilwood is quite proud of those things!

I just finished my setup last week (hopefully for good this time). C5 rotors, SL IIs, 1LE rotors cut into hubs, brackets by me.... I would really like to go to a two-piece rotor but this will have to do for now.....
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Old 07-06-2004, 07:17 AM   #24
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Interesting thought here, anyone have any experiance with the Calipers made by/for coleman? I was looking in the catalog last night. you can get what seems to be a pretty serious caliper, for a resonable price. toss in a set of custom made rotor/hats from them, and it should all fit nicely. and not break the budget.
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Old 07-06-2004, 11:48 AM   #25
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So those are the rotors and hats that fit a stock C5 setup I presume? (someone else asked above). If so, yikes!!!! I priced them out and Wilwood is quite proud of those things!

I just finished my setup last week (hopefully for good this time). C5 rotors, SL IIs, 1LE rotors cut into hubs, brackets by me.... I would really like to go to a two-piece rotor but this will have to do for now.....
I checked out Wilwoods site to verify the C5 kit specs and no- nothing in that kit is the same. C5 kit has 13.06x1.25, I opted for 12.90x1.25 rotors(more options in this size). The hats are different, and even the calipers & mounting brackets are different.

My setup is setting inboard as far as I can get it (Unsprung weight) so my hat offset is more inward, and my hub face is slightly shallower. I will then just run a aprox 1/2" aluminum spacer to set the rim out to the proper scrub radius (track width). My rotor & caliper will set inboard about 1" more than the C5 setup.
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Old 07-06-2004, 01:00 PM   #26
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Well those still might be the ones for a C5, just not the ones from the 13" kit. Here is the stuff listed for the stock C5 pad/rotor upgrade kit:

2 x 170-7746 - hats
1 x 160-7742 - rotor
1 x 160-7743 - rotor
24 x 230-8037 - bolt
24 x 240-2509 - washers

They are actually 12.81" which leads me to believe the factory C5 rotors that everyone refers to as 13" are actually ~12.8". I forgot to measure mine up before I put my wheels back on, but I will double check that the next time I am in there.

I have a good friend that is a Wilwood dealer and get pretty good prices on any Wilwood products, but even with his generosity factored in I would be looking at ~$600 for those 2-piece C5 replacement rotors. Just don't have the money to swing that at this point. But it is nice running C5 stuff as options abound for rotors.

Wilwood also has a 13.06" upgrade kit with these part numbers:

2 x 170-8132 hats
1 x 160-8165 rotor
1 x 160-8166 rotor

This is the stuff that comes with their 13" big brake kit that replaces the C5 caliper with a 6 piston Wilwood piece and has the two-piece rotors.

Depending on how it all shakes down on the track, I was thinking about looking into the 6 piston Superlites since they would be a direct bolt on with the 3.5" spread mounting pattern, but I think what I have will be more than adequate. That same friend that pedals Wilwood has a 12.2" setup with the same calipers on his 3800lb Firehawk and is quite competitive with things like Z06s and Cobra Rs. I think the thing to look out for on mine will be pad taper.

Anyways, doesn't really matter which rotor you have - either one will work great. I was just wondering if those were the ones I was looking into. That setup you got in the works will be awesome. Nice and light with power and reliability. Those hubs look pretty beefy too. I tried to do mine with a used set of aluminum hubs I got off the classified boards here but one ended up being tweaked and I had to switch to the cut down 1LE rotors.
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Old 07-06-2004, 02:19 PM   #27
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nice looking...
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Old 07-06-2004, 03:21 PM   #28
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vsixtoy, have you thought about getting them cryoed?

Alot of the local racers said having that done helped prevent warping and slightly better breaking distances.
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Old 07-06-2004, 08:54 PM   #29
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vsixtoy, have you thought about getting them cryoed?

local racers said having that done helped prevent warping and slightly better breaking distances.
That will help under exxtreme conditions- I have heard the freezing process blends the metal molecules into a more durable struture and will heatcycle better without warping also.

Problem I would have with that is with this large of rotors on this light of a car, I don't feel its necessary to go to that extreme. Now for a shorttrack Nascar that boils brakes at 1400*- yes. I just want a setup that gives me options to go more heavy duty like the Coleman rotors that Dewey is sugggesting he may go with. I can simply roundfile these SRP rotors and put in some HD 30 directional vane rotors for high heat racing- if ever I decide to do that with this car. Otherwise, these will definately handle anything I plan to throw at it in the over-the-counter state they can be purchased in.
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Old 07-08-2004, 11:25 PM   #30
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The new raidal mounts were delivered today. They are going to work perfect with the fabrication of a bracket (simular to the 1LE setup to mount the caliper to the spindle) Noiw I have to wait for a day off to fab it up, then take it to the machinist for some final milling.

I'd post pics of the old and new radial mounts if I could, but I can't due to my pending probation statis. So I guess this post is finished.
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Old 07-13-2004, 04:42 PM   #31
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I worked on them a little today. Took a few progress pic, and then setup a new page on the cardomain site for anyone interested to follow this in the future.

http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/518752/6
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Old 07-13-2004, 05:06 PM   #32
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I think i'm in love.
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Old 07-13-2004, 05:20 PM   #33
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I think i'm in love.
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Old 07-14-2004, 01:49 AM   #34
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I think i'm in love.
I'm sure it loves you too John .......
More finished tonight- check the link.
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Old 07-19-2004, 02:51 PM   #35
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Aluminium brackets custom ordered through eMachineshop. They will have a anodized clear ceramic finish also for corrosion and heat protection.

Pics at bottom of link page-
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/518752/6
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Old 07-19-2004, 07:17 PM   #36
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Looking REALLLL nice
I hope I get done with my brakes before summers over. Failing inspection because of brakes gives me 45 days which is plenty of insentive.
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Old 07-19-2004, 11:46 PM   #37
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is it possible to buy those hubs without buying hte whole brake kit? If so where and how much? Thanks.
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Old 07-20-2004, 01:14 AM   #38
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That looks sweet, one of these days I hope to upgrade my brakes all around the car........
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Old 07-20-2004, 10:39 AM   #39
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I'd be happy just with the Spohn Wilwood kit if it had the lighter two-piece rotors.

I wonder if there are any two-piece Wilwood or otherwise rotors that you could substitute into Spohn's kit. I'd buy that in a heartbeat.


Awesome setup vsixtoy, yours has to be the best thing this side of carbon or ceramic brakes.
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Old 07-21-2004, 09:49 PM   #40
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is it possible to buy those hubs without buying hte whole brake kit? If so where and how much? Thanks.
Yes, Hubs were bought seperate rom Global West. They are special order and are actually G-body hubs, not F-body. So fabrication of the rims is required to get them to work. They were $500.00 per set including bearings and races. GW has the CAD file on them from a custom order someone made a few years back.
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Old 07-21-2004, 09:52 PM   #41
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Thank you to everyone for the kind words of incouragement also. It is obviously not the least expensive route I could have taken from better brakes- but I wanted something entirely custom- and thank you all for respecting and not bashing that.
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Old 07-22-2004, 09:23 AM   #42
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Quote:
I'd be happy just with the Spohn Wilwood kit if it had the lighter two-piece rotors.
I'm sure you can call Steve and have him look into it for you. You can get replacement rotors from Baer and the like for Vettes and LS1 car rotors and others but I'm sure they won't come right out and tell you which application that rotor is for.

You can look into two piece rotors from TCE Performance and Coleman Racing, they both have great selections, but you'll need to know either the application or the exact measurements of the rotors.


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Old 07-22-2004, 09:25 AM   #43
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with the fixed mount caliper. the trick thing to do, would be to order floating mount 2 piece rotors from coleman.
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Old 07-22-2004, 09:30 AM   #44
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I've looked into 2 pc rotors for a kit of mine and it's around $480 for the pair, so these things can sure add up...and Dean can attest to that.


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Old 07-22-2004, 09:40 AM   #45
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Yes they can, i am looking at them now, along with coleman calipers, and I'm looking at front/rear combinations with 4pinston calipers on both . I guess in all my crazyness, I am bound and determined to make my car completely unstreetable.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:25 AM   #46
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I'm sure you can call Steve and have him look into it for you. You can get replacement rotors from Baer and the like for Vettes and LS1 car rotors and others but I'm sure they won't come right out and tell you which application that rotor is for.

You can look into two piece rotors from TCE Performance and Coleman Racing, they both have great selections, but you'll need to know either the application or the exact measurements of the rotors.
Thanks, I'll try that.

I guess as long as they are the same diameter and thickness, and the "offset" of the rotor relative to its own hub is the same as the one-piece, it would swap directly. Unless the aluminum hat's hub is thicker or thinner, it wouldn't be a problem; thinner could use a spacer but I wouldn't want to machine one that is too thick.

Mr. Z06 had some probs with his Baers because something was thick and it spaced the wheels further out the fender, and I can only figure it would be because of the rotor hat (I think he has one of the higher-end kits with 2 peice rotors but I can't remember).

Of course, I haven't given my front suspension a serious look-at so I might be ignorant to other factors.

Not trying to hijack your thread vsixtoy.
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:42 AM   #47
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Not trying to hijack your thread vsixtoy.
Hey, no problem at all. Thats what the post is here for to ponder ideas.
I was thinking the same exact thing as you are when I was debating just buying an over-th- counter kit. I was trying to determine what 2pc rotor off of what car would work without any modification. It is really hard to get measurements without purchasing a rotorfrom something then checking the specs yourself- Most companies that sell kits aren't open to give you their spec or the rotors they use (Understandably why, it takes effort to build a kit).

Heck, I could even sell these brackets I engineered if someone wanted to duplicate my setup when I document the part #'s- but I won't. I have already posted the bracket specs on my cardomain site for everyone to duplicate for free. I seriously doubt that many would want to duplicate what I'm doing because of the machine work necessary to make everything fit the factory rims (I shouldn't say factory though, becasue even they will be altered to fit- rears included so I can rotate fronts to rears, I run 4 rears on the car.)
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Old 07-22-2004, 10:50 AM   #48
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Dean, you've got mail.

Rembrant, check your PM's
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Old 07-22-2004, 11:58 AM   #49
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Quote:
Mr. Z06 had some probs with his Baers because something was thick and it spaced the wheels further out the fender, and I can only figure it would be because of the rotor hat (I think he has one of the higher-end kits with 2 peice rotors but I can't remember).
I think the problem he had was trying to install an aftermarket kit such as the Baers and run really large wheels and tires at the same time, and therefore he has rubbing issues. Any kit of this design (hub/rotor) whether it be Baer, C5, C4, LS1, or Spohn's 13" kit will end up pushing the front wheels out and COULD cause interference with the front wheels/tires and the fenders, not a hard concept to understand really. This is why you have to make sure you have the right wheel dimentions before you run one of these kits. I really think he just has too much wheel to tuck under the fender lip.

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Old 09-03-2004, 05:06 PM   #50
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Originally posted by Dr G
Will you be able to try fitting a GTA front wheel over those at some point? I know it seems a strange request, but the options are a tad limited for those of us GTA owners who wish to keep the stock wheels.
Great news for GTA owners-

I ran down to Dons shop and measured the GTA rims with my setup and they will fit the GW hubs WITHOUT and machine work necessary. The IROC rims need to be machined larger in the center opening.
So again the GTA rims will fit this entire setup, even with the aluminum hubs.
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