91dime

I'm having a hard time diagnosing my starting issue with my v8 s10. It has always hard a hard time cranking, but now it doesn't want to even turn the engine over. The solenoid engages but it doesn't turn the engine over. I bench tested the solenoid and starter motor, both operated fine on the bench. I'm and starting to wonder if my battery wiring has been the problem the whole time.

My setup is,
Mild 350 crate engine
153t flex plate
Power master inline patter starter
Gm perf serpentine accessory system
Die Hard Platinum battery mounted in the bed
0/1 copper cable from battery to alternator post, from alternator post 0/1 to starter motor.
0/1 copper cable grounds from battery to engine, battery to chassis, two from engine to chassis.

3 things I am considering

-Starter might need shimmed, I've never had to shim a starter so I installed this one without shims. Stupid to assume I know.

-Starter motor might be bad, only showing under a load and not on be bench

-Flaw in my battery/alt/starter cable layout.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

redneckjoe

i'd run the positive to the starter solenoid first and have the starter bench tested.

91dime

Both the solenoid and starter motor worked ok on the bench.

I'm thinking about running the battery positive to a post, then from that post running a cable to the starter and a cable to the alternator.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

No No No , the wire that carries the battery's current that is to be used to actually turn the starter motor HAS to run straight from the battery positive to the starter ! The more connections in between , the more opportunity for resistance in the connections . Use the big connection on your starter's solenoid as the post , and connect your alternator to that also .

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

See my post above , I'm surprised this worked at all . The starter should never be the last thing in the electrical path , It's gotta be the FIRST thing !

redneckjoe

[QUOTE=91dime;6030710]Both the solenoid and starter motor worked ok on the bench.

just because it spins on the ground or bench, doesnt mean much. take it to your local parts store like autozone, etc, they can test it properly and its free of charge. it might spin on the bench with no load but it could still be bad.
might want to take your battery and have it tested too?
obviously check all your connections.

91dime

Thank you for the replies!!

I will re route the cable to the starter, and from there to the alt like you said orangebird. I am using 0/1 copper cable, copper terminals that are crimped, soldered and heat shrunk.

Can autozone load test them? I thought they just put power to so it would spin and read the current, I didn't think they could actually test them with a load on it.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Sounds great to me ! Always remember , when dealing with moving whole bunches of Amps to your starter , it's always ;

The shortest possible length

The fattest possible gauge

And the least possible connections


And then all the other electrical devices can be accommodated off of the big terminal of the starter once it's been supplied with power as above .

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

PS , I don't know off the top of my head how thick 0/1 cable is , but generally speaking I'd think you'd want the copper part of the wire , when stripped of insulation , to be at least as fat around as your thumb , where your adding several feet to it's length with the remote battery mounting .

91dime

Yeah it's thumbed sized diameter cable lol.

I have a run of 0/1 going to a dist block in the cab to power amps and accessories.

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

Orangebird has it right.

Also I didn't hear much mention on what battery? On my v8s10, battery has to be in great shape or I will start having issues. Currently running a Deka 1000 and if I keep it on the tender it does good. That's a long run from the bed to the starter, got to keep the battery in good shape.

91dime

Edit double post

91dime

It's a die hard platinum, I can't remember the CCA off hand but I want to say is in the 800s. It was the top of the line battery at Sears, and I've read a ton of good reviews for it on car audio sites. It is new, but I think I need to get a tender to keep on it. I do notice if the voltage is a tad low it doesn't want to do anything. That's most likely caused by my wire routing though.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Wires are the exact opposite of women , Where we want our women long , lanky , and just a bit loose , our wires need to be short , fat , and tight !

91dime

Ok well luckily the cable going to the alt was long enough to be re routed behind the engine to the starter. Unfortunately it did not solve the problem. The solenoid engages, but it doesn't turn the engine over. Battery was at 14v and I even tried with the charger. 200 amp boost wasn't enough. All connections tight and clean with star washers on them.

I guess now I need to try a new starter. I'm going to use a oem type starter this time. From what I understand an lt1 starter has the inline pattern. I think I will use one of them.

redneckjoe

LT1 starters are nice, and lighter, but man,...they're a bit more expensive, lol.

91dime

I will also get it tested like you suggested joe. I'm not sure how reliable they are, but you can get an lt1 starter on Amazon for $50.

redneckjoe

yea, for sure get it tested. thats a good price. i think theyre about $150 or more at autozone, etc?

91dime

Yeah that's right. They are only about $70 from rock auto though.

thtanner

iTrader: (1)

I've been having this issue, in fact, this issue lead to me getting 1/0 cable. Let me tell you a story.....

I've had chronic starting issues since I bought my car. 3 starters later... I re-wired everything with 1/0 and then boom, 110% no power to my car what so ever. I find a fusible link had failed just due to being handled/age/heat.

There are 3 fusible links at the starter. A fusible link is a wire that is designed to be thinner than the rest of the wiring harness, so that it fails in an overload situation (super ghetto fuse, basically). Problem is, over time they begin to fail. A strand or 2 breaks internally, or more, it becomes a point of resistance, things like the ECM etc are not getting 100% power...

Long story short, I replaced the fusible link wire with new, and my starting problems are gone. Starter turns over like a bat out of hell with the 1/0 (8ft lenght) Not to mention I now have interior lights I never knew existed, and everything is happier.

May or may not be your issue, but it's something worth checking.

Oh, and you can get a mini starter for around $50 on Amazon. That's what I paid. DB Electrical brand, China special, but working great.

91dime

Thanks for the reply!

I have never really considered the fuse able links. I just figured since the solenoid was engaging that all of the other wiring was ok. When I built my truck, it was a frame off built so pretty much everything was replaced. I do have a few of the fuseable links in my system.

I have checked them before on other vehicles, but I only checked for continuity. Is there a certain ohm across them that I should see? Did you buy new fuseable links to replace them with?

Buickstaged

iTrader: (1)

Did I miss the part about how you have connected the ground? Engine to frame, battery to frame? Byron

91dime

I think I mentioned it, but it could of easily been forgotten.

The current grounds are all 0/1 copper cable, crimped and soldered ends with heatshrink. I may need to add 1 more cable.

Here's a quick drawing of the current ground system, don't laugh too hard at it.


The dotted line with the * is the one I am considering adding. At one time I had tried a ground there but it never made any difference. I would of left it but it was 2 gauge wire that did not match the rest of my grounding wire and that bothered me. That run is only about 2' long so I think 2 gauge wire would be sufficient. I will re install that ground today and try again.

The starter could be destroyed from low V because of my previous cable routing.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

You are correct , if your solenoid is engaging , then yes , your fusable links are fine . Remember , the links only carry power to the solenoid , the starter motor itself has no such fusable element in it's current path .

91dime

I pulled the plugs out the other day and it turned over. So I reinstalled them and it will start now, but I have to hit the key a few times before the motor turns. The solenoid will engage everytime though.

When I re routed the starter cable it put it close to the engine and exhaust manifold, anyone have a recommendation for a good shield or jacket for it? As of now I plan to use this
http://m.summitracing.com/parts/the-...FcNahgod1VkJkw

3rdgenmaro

iTrader: (9)

The headers on those swaps are notorious for killing stock style starters. Especially without a heat shield. Having to heat the key a couple times sounds like the starter is bad to me.

My first starter didn't last long without a heat shield. Now I have just a simple heat shield on a mini starter. Been working good for several years with no issues.

91dime

I don't even have headers on it, just third gen exhaust manifolds.

I am going to do all the voltage tests that this site suggests

http://www.w8ji.com/measuring%20cranking%20problems.html

And I will grab an amp meter from work and see how many Amps its drawing while cranking. I'm thinking the starter is dieing like you said.

redneckjoe

while you need a good working starter, battery and wiring,...if you have a high compression engine or a lot of initial timing, and having a hard time cranking the engine,...it can be worth hooking up your starter and ignition seperatly. much easier to get the engine cranking over and then turn the ignition on after its spinning. this can be done with a push button start or toggle switch to ignition, etc.

starter heat shields are relatively easy to make out of sheetmetal or even those metal juice cans.

91dime

The compression is 9.5-1, and the initial timing is 14 degrees. I have one of those summit rebadged Mallory ignition boxes. It blinks when it fires, and it normally doesn't blink untill it turns over a few times.

I really don't think heat is the culprit, but I do have nice peice of stainless steel that would make a good heat shroud.

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

LOL!


Seriously, back to your ground drawing, you should think about ground straps from the engine to firewall. Not gonna help your starter problem but will help with lighting problems and such. JMTC!

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

There's no such size.

Gauges, in order of increasing size, go 2, 1, 0, 00, 000, 0000 (often called 1/0, 2/0, 3/0, and 4/0), 500MCM (mcm=thousands of circular mils), 1000MCM, after that it's usually just bus bar that's described by size. 0000 is just slightly under ½" dia, therefore just slightly under 250MCM (cross section of just under ¼ sq in)

1/0 should be large enough.

Run your cables as follows:

+ terminal of batt to big post on starter solenoid; all other wires from the rest of the car (alt, ign sw, etc.) to that same post, using fusible links of appropriate sizes.

- terminal of batt to engine BLOCK (not head, not intake, not water pump, BLOCK); big fat ground wire (#4 is ENTIRELY adequate) from any convenient point on BLOCK to firewall (scrape the paint and use a star washer between the wire terminal and the bare metal); all things in the car that need to be grounded, to the chassis.

No ground necessary at the batt in the trunk, won't accomplish a thing.

Doesn't matter that the ground wires are all the same size or not. The electrons couldn't care less. They'll just follow the path of least resistance.

Ground wires don't have to be so massive. They don't carry all that much current. The main batt cable between the batt and the BLOCK will carry all current between the batt and the rest of the car, which is some hundreds of amps while starting, and as much as 100 amps or so max charging, and a few tens of amps max of load in the car. The BLOCK, without help from any wires, carries the ground side of the charging current (alt return). The ground wire between the BLOCK and the chassis will carry the car load, which is only some tens of amps MAX.

If you need a batt disconnect, mount it in the trunk near the batt, run a short cable from the batt to that, then from there to the post on the solenoid.

If it still has trouble starting, measure the voltage between the big post on the solenoid and the starter case while your assistant attempts to start it; then across the batt terminals themselves while trying to start. Should be within a volt or so of each other, and shouldn't go below 11V at the batt terminals. If the batt voltage goes below 11, charge it up FULLY (like, overnight) and try again. If the batt still goes below 11V, it's no good. If the voltage at the starter is more than about 1V less than the batt voltage, then the starter is drawing too much current, and is no good. Replace it with a gear-reduction unit.

91dime

The wire is 1/0, typo. Sorry about that.

I emailed powermaster this morning and got a reply. I was told it is very important that there is 9.5v at the ignition terminal on the starter. When I try to crank it over it dips down to about 8v at the igniton terminal. The starter voltage from the post to the case is 11.9v when the solenoid only engages, and it dipped down low to 8.5v when it turned the engine over. the battery voltage only went down to 11.9v when cranking.

Checked amperage on the battery to starter cable and it was 31amps when the solenoid only engaged. When start starter spun it spiked to about 325 and then down to 200 while cranking.

I added a temp ground from block to cab and did not see a change. It was on a cleaned surface with a star washer.

I used the 1/0 everywhere just so it looked consistent.

The battery is on a 2amp charge right now, just to make sure its got good consistent voltage, Its a new battery though.

Thank you for the reply! That was a huge help!

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Well, if the voltage at the batt is 11.9 cranking, and at the starter it's 8.5, then there's 3V drop in the cables, which means there's too much resistance in the cable. Not large enough, evidently. Which seems odd because that's semi-YUUUUUJJJJE.

Is it run in the most direct possible path? Like, out the front of the "trunk", over the axle, along the "frame", and straight to the starter? Remember, every INCH of wire adds resistance; the shorter you can make it without doing something else wrong like exposing it or dangling it across open space or stretching it so tight at the ends you can't move the batt or starter, the better it will work.

Likewise, every connection adds resistance. Might seem "handy" to run your big fat cable to a post somewhere for example, connect the alt and all that there, then continue on to the batt. DON'T. Go STRAIGHT from the batt to the starter. Then if you want the "convenience" binding post, run a #4 or so cable from the starter post to your "convenience" post.

Also, what kind of ends did you use on the cables? Post pics.

redneckjoe

is it good, fine strand automotive or welding quality wire?

Night rider327

iTrader: (13)

I run 1/0 welding cable on my rear mount and have no probs at all turning over an 11:1 355 so I don't think his prob is cause it's "welding" cable.

redneckjoe

i use welding ground wire also with no problem. was just wondering what kind of wire OP is talking about.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Doesn't too much matter what "kind" of wire it is, as long as it's copper... copper is copper. As long as, whatever it is, it's possible to make good connections at the ends.

Now, the "quality" of the wire might matter in OTHER ways; for example, durability, resistance to heat and solvents, ease of installation, and so on; but as far as just being a conductor, ... no. All the same.

If it's NOT copper, but instead is aluminum, then it needs to be TWICE as large in area since the resistance of aluminum is roughly twice that of copper (a little more than that actually, but it's hair-splitting), which would mean, about 3 gauges larger. It would need to be 0000 aluminum to have the same electrical performance as 0 copper.

Let's let him tell us about EXACTLY how he has it run. Maybe some pictures, a simple diagram showing where the connections are and what wires go where and what gauge they are, or some similar piece of more complete information.

91dime

I don't have any pictures off hand, I can post them later.

Every battery cable, + or - is a 1/0 fine strand copper cable (for car audio applications) with a copper lug, crimped, soldered and covered with heat shrink.

The battery is mounted on the front drivers side of the bed. It's routed through the cab, through the firewall, behind the engine to the starter. A cable from the starter to the alternator.

The grounds are a cable through the cab to the engine. A cable on each side of the engine to the chassis. A cable to a distribution block in the cab behind the driver seat. 4g wire from the block to the cab.

I have a temporary 4g wire from the engine to the body right now. I need to make a permanent, better routed cable.

All connections are made on a sanded surface with a bolt and nut, or a tapped hole with a bolt. Stainless steel bolts everywhere with a star washer.

Not to sound arrogant, but I really don't think it's a battery cable issue. I've seen so many trunk mounted battery set ups that are hack jobs and work fine. I took a lot of time with my terminations and routing.

The low voltage 7.5-8 at the S terminal makes me wonder. The solenoid engages everytime though. I might try a jumper from the s terminal directly to the battery to see if that makes a difference. When the starter does spin, it usually spins at a good speed. Maybe just a little bit too slow sometime.

Thanks for the replies guys, I'm taking in everything and considering it all.

thtanner

iTrader: (1)

Car audio wiring is often CCA, not pure copper strands.

I would think the draw is there. They're mis-advertised all the time.

Also, make sure the battery has the shortest ground cable to the frame possible. Not 100% sure based on your description if you have.

91dime

I did wonder about that for awhile. I know they make the insulation thick to make them appear bigger than they really are. I bought it almost 4 years ago, but I remember making sure it was copper and not copper clad.

Maybe I need to replace the 2 main runs with welding cable.

I need to add a cable from the battery to the frame in the rear.

thtanner

iTrader: (1)

I used this cable. Very good quality.

91dime

I had some short cables made up already so I stuck the battery up front and had the same results. Tried a jumper from the battery to the S terminal, same results.

Still not ruling out changing to welding cable though. I am thinking that the starter may be the problem. Im not going with a powermaster again though.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

If you have CCA wire (copper-clad aluminum... see notes above about "as long as it's copper", which CCA is NOT, and "instead is aluminum") then there's at least part of your problem.

But the numbers still don't add up.

If the voltage at the batt is 11.9V, and the voltage across the starter is 8.5, then there's 3.4 volts of drop in the cable. That's 1.7V in each one. According to Ohm's Law, 1.7V ÷ 200A = .0085 ohms. If you have 10' of wire, and it's REALLY copper, then that tells us you have 8 gauge wire. Something is wrong.

Or, to flip it around the other way; 10' of 1/0 COPPER wire has about .001 ohms of resistance. 200A × .001 ohms = 0.2 V. Something is wrong.

You don't have what you think you have, somewhere.

Even if your wire was aluminum, with about twice the resistance of copper, you should still only see around 0.4 V in each cable (0.8 V in both). You have more than twice that much.

Something is seriously wrong with something. The Laws of Physics cannot be broken: simply wrapping some ordinary thing like batteries and wires and electric motors in "car" doesn't void them. This is just electricity; battery and ground. Doesn't get much simpler. We're not talking rocket surgery here. Something in your system somewhere isn't what you think it is.

Doesn't matter for the purposes of starting, how long or large the ground wire to the chassis is, IF IT'S WIRED RIGHT (which is, as described above: neg batt term to BLOCK, NOT chassis, NOT firewall, NOT frame, NOT NOT NOT NOT... it MUST to go to the BLOCK and nowhere else). Starter current doesn't go through that other ground wire. Charging current doesn't even go through it. The ONLY current that passes through that wire is the load in the CAR apart from the ENGINE: lights, radio, blower motor, etc. It is not related to starting. It could be entirely absent and the starter operation wouldn't change. You could take your motor and battery out of the car and set them on the ground, and the starter will still work just the same.

Doesn't sound to me like the starter is the problem. It keeps coming back to the wire. There's too much voltage drop (not "draw") in the wire for it to be what you're saying it is. Ohm's Law does not lie.

redneckjoe

have you tried a known, good battery or had yours load tested?

i've had batteries only a year or 2 old go bad.

91dime

The battery is only about 1 month old. It needs to be ran though because it's spent it's short life starting the truck and running for a few min daily.

I figured out the problem, and it's my own dumb fault. I remembered doing it the first time I installed the starter about 8 years ago(this truck took almost 12 years to build, through Jr high, high school and college). I put a few drops of glue on the shim to keep it in place while installing the starter. The starter was not making a good ground. Took the glue off, re installed the started and it cranked right over with the battery in the engine compartment. The batt didnt have the greatest voltage then. Put it in the bed and it would start sometimes, but after letting it sit on the charger it will crank right over.

I don't remember who stated it earlier in this thread, but they said thier s10 with a relocated battery was very picky on cranking voltage. I will do like they suggested and keep it on a tender while it sits in the garage.

Also you all were correct, there was a obvious problem in the wiring/grounding. Ohms law does not lie lol. I just really had to look at the source.

Thank you very much guys for all the help. When I have a problem I know I can come here and I will get good, non judgemental answeres!

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Never woulda guessed THAT over the Internet... glad you found it though.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I can agree with a ground running from the block back to the battery as long as there are no grounds from the block to anything else. I can agree to the single fat ground from the block to keep ignition and alternator noise from moving into the speakers and other sensitive electronics and keep the starter circuit "healthy". But just adding one ground from the block to the firewall or block to frame rail will negate that and introduce the possibility for noise everywhere else. There are some videos on YouTube as well as car audio articles that show that if the block or whatever component is properly grounded to the frame or floor pan or sub frame and the battery is properly grounded to that same connection it will offer less resistance than a single wire until you start using (I believe) 00 wire. I have Tony Candela's book "Automotive Wiring and Electrical Systems" and I believe that he says the same thing.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I make my living designing electrical and electronic things. I was a math & physics major my first trip through college. I actually understand electricity, in detail.

Glad you've read a book. That's more than ALOT of the people trying to offer advice on car forums can lay claim to.

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I was a science major but it was more the science for needed for a medical career-I understand electricity, but not in detail. What about what I replied to your reply?