Rgeddes09

Has anyone read this article? I am looking to milk some more power out of my 89 TBI 305 camaro for something in the neighborhood of $2000. I was doing some research because I don't know much about engines (yet). Does anyone have any idea how much this would cost and how much time it would take realistically?


http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...cks/index.html

150 HP for a 305 Chevy Engine - Hate Me

Add 150 HP to the Chevy No One Likes
By Steve Dulcich


I'm not sure what's tougher, being a 305 Chevy, or being a 305 owner. It's all abuse and insults, and never any respect. Talk about building or hopping up a 305 and guys will generally shun you, or even boldly accuse you of being a fool. You'll hear, "Why mess with that junk motor? You're wasting your time." Wouldn't it be nice to lay waste on their stuff instead, with a few discrete bolt-ons? How about a bolt-on package that will add 150 crank hp, and still pull a good 13 in-hg of manifold vacuum at 850 rpm? And what if all the stuff comes in cheaper than what it would take to build the average high performance 350 short-block, and all the parts will transfer over to a larger engine and work great if you ever decide go bigger? We know there were tons of 305s built in the 1970s right through to the mid '90s, many of them in cars with definite performance undertones, most notably GM F- and G-bodies. We'll go out on a limb and presume that there are quite a few of these guys on a working man's budget who'd love to spring for a fresh up-sized engine, but have to make do with the 305 that's in it now.
No engine modification effort will be successful without giving it plenty of thought and planning. First, we really had to think about why the 305 has such a reputation as a pooch. We deduced right away that all of these engines were built during an era when horsepower took a back seat to other considerations, and were generally choked with all sorts of add-on emissions do-dads. Factory 305s came with anywhere from a low of about 130 hp, to a high water mark of 230 hp for the hot Camaro LB9 injected engines in 1990. Most 305s made right around 140-150 hp as the factory net rating, and that isn't the kind of output legends are built on. We also identified that the engine is small, and has a particularly small bore at 3.736-inches, while the stroke is the same as a 350 at 3.48-inches. The small bore is an immediate red flag to most guys; but is it really when things are looked at in proportion to the engine's size? In fact, the factory 305 bore/stoke ratio is actually slightly better than a stock 454 Chevy, and way better than any of the 4.030x4.000-inch strokers. Conjuring the Power Pack Actually, with the right heads, there is nothing inherent in the bore to stroke ratio of an engine of this displacement that will cripple cylinder filling, especially in the street rpm range of under 6,500 rpm. We had just the heads in mind for this project, the 180cc intake runner EngineQuest (EQ) replacement Vortec castings. These heads are machined for 1.94/1.50-inch valves, which are proportionally large for a 305-cube engine, and their low cost makes them a natural for a budget conscious 305 build. The flow of these castings is a major step up from restrictive stock 305 heads, and we have seen firsthand that they can support excellent output, even on a larger 350-cube engine. On a 305 engine, their 233-cfm of intake flow, if taken in proportion, would be the equivalent of running a 290-plus-cfm head on a 383 small-block combination. Our 305 should be more than happy with the flow these heads provide.
Shaver's Specialty Service supplied the EngineQuest cylinder heads, which retail for about $225 each as bare castings. We had Shaver's mill the heads a modest 0.030-inch, to reduced the chamber volume to 60cc, so that we wouldn't lose compression ratio compared to the typical production small-chamber heads used on these engines. Shaver's assembled the heads with a budget 1.94/1.50-inch valve combination, along with convention single performance springs with dampers. Later in testing, we wished we'd stepped-up to Shaver's extra-cost COMP No. 26918 beehive spring package, which would have allowed even more rpm, and possibly allowed the engine to make more peak power.
The cylinder heads from Shaver's were the cornerstone of our 305 modification plan. Besides the heads, we only intended a few other complimentary mods, intending to use a factory 305 short-block for the testing. Our 305 test engine had been stashed unused and unloved on a pallet rack at Westech Performance Group for years. It wasn't until the casting numbers at the back of the block were verified that they were even certain of what the engine was. It took considerable persuasion to build enough enthusiasm in the Westech crew for them to even consider forklifting it down. It turned out to be a low-end 305 with dished pistons and a regular flat-tappet cam. Some of the high-end 305s came with flat-top pistons for more compression ratio, as well as factory hydraulic roller cam setups. Our engine isn't ideal to show off the 305's potential, but if nothing else it does represent the typical 305 that people love to hate...(continued)

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Step #1 is always exhaust. Note they used long tubes "dyno headers" in the article. They didn't say what size they were, but I'd guess 1-5/8" primaries. You won't get that exact type of header in a 3rd gen, but you absolutely need to replace every single piece of exhaust on your car. That could run you anywhere from $500-$1000 alone. A good set-up for a healthy 305 would be Hooker 2055HKR's, with '86-'90 TPI single cat application aftermarket cat-back.

Next, are you keeping TBI? It is the only legal set-up for your car unless you convert to another factory EFI system. The answer to that question determines a lot of what would follow.

LO3 heads are power limiting. They do what the factory was after (clean burning, fuel efficient) pretty well, but if you're looking for power, they are lacking. The heads they used in the article are probably bigger than you'd want for a street 305, but it is one way to go.

The cam is another key. Whether or not you're keeping EFI will again dictate what you can do there.

Oh, should also mention that the 370 HP they got does not compare to your rated 170 HP. Note they got 220 out of the stock 305, when it was probably rated by the factory somewhere between 145-165. Apples-to-apples, that 370 is more like 285-300 compared to your 170 - still a very substantial increase, but you'll have limitations once installed in the car that they didn't, even if you used all of the engine parts they used.

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

along with what fiveseven said,I'd like to add:the reason people hate these engines is that they cost significantly more to build if your starting from scratch.If you have a good solid shortblock to start with,I see no harm in attempting it,because everything I read indicates that you could transfer your parts to a larger smallblock later if you wish.
However,if your building from scratch,I will join the crowd and advise you to start with a 350,if not for the fact that the same combination will make more power,but also that it is simply cheaper to build than a 305.

tekkitan

iTrader: (1)

If you already have the 305, then whats the problem? No matter what you say, it'll cost more to go 350 if he already has a 305. And if most of the mods made to the 305 will work on a bigger motor (350 for example), why not go for it? Not everyone has the money to source building a new engine from scratch. So build on what you have and move to something bigger down the road.

ericjon262

tekkitan

iTrader: (1)

Is that all you're going to contribute? Thanks for being a troll.

ericjon262

CreepingDeath94

iTrader: (4)

I think the problem with most people and engine builds is they don't really know what they want. They start out in one direction and by the end want something else and the parts don't mesh anymore.

To the OP, what do you want out of the car/project? If you are after raw power, quarter mile or autocross car, then just know that going in and decide what route you want to go from there. If you just want some more power because the car is fun now, but you would like it to have a bit more and don't have that much to spend...ie $2K...just work with what you have and make it better. Or just save for now until you have enough to motor swap or make the power and complete set-up you are after then.

If you start out now going one direction with say the 305 and halfway down the road you decide you wanted to go another route after all, you just wasted most of your money and won't recover it. Just my 2 cents. Just make sure of what you want before you buy/start anything.

In the 305 route, you will spend more money on head work, exhaust, cam, etc., but with a 350, you will need to do the exhaust work, cam, and swap all the computer related inputs to the 350 stuff as well. True you will get more for your money with the 350, but if you don't already have a 350, you will have to buy that too...so add that into the cost. I think if you are on a limited budget and don't need a race car or something, either just make it a bit better and be happy with the 305; start with suspension upgrades that you will need if it is to be quarter mile run down the road with whatever motor you choose; or just wait and save for now until you can do exactly what you want to do.

ericjon262

another thiing, make sure your componets are well matched to each other, and what you want out of the motor. another thing to remember, all of the small bolt on things that might only add a couple of horsepower a peice add up, 5 horsepower here and 10 horsepower there can start to add up just like change on the nightstand. start with things like the ultimate TBI mods, headers, and a Good tune, you'll be suprised what you'll find.

Also, check out the TBI board, read the stikies, they are full of goodies that you should enjoy!

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/

the Ultimate TBI mods are linnked to on this page

https://www.thirdgen.org/technical-articles

Good luck-

Eric

Rgeddes09

wow a lot of great replies. Yeah in regards to what direction I'm going with it, I have a basic understanding of how engines work from past high school jobs, research and reading up on these forums. I just bought my 89 camaro rs dirt cheap my first semester of college and I plan to drive it home to Montana at the end of the year from Cali and use it as a project car I can learn on. It's sort of a beater right now, which is good because if I make any serious mistakes it's not the end of the world. I just want to get under the hood of this thing and learn as much as I can while having fun with it. I'm thinking about sprucing up the interior and doing some basic engine work over the summer and eventually reselling it.

Maybe the TBI boards are the place to ask this, but is the conversion from TBI to carb 1) expensive 2) difficult and 3) worth it? I'm a novice and don't really know where to start, but I gather that new headers, better intake and exhaust, and a performance camshaft seem to be the place to start. Preferably I'd like to do some basic modifications that I can do with basic tools in my garage first.

Once again, maybe a question for another board:
Oh, and how noticeable are upgraded headers? Is it a significant power boost, or like you said, one of the little things that adds up? I'm looking to do the mods that give me the most bang for my buck first, with an eye towards low end torque; hp is nice but considering my resources I want it to feel 'fun' first and foremost.

CreepingDeath94

iTrader: (4)

Well, in addition to adding up when combined with their numbers alone, many of those 5 hp here and 10hp there have a compounding affect when they combine. Headers for instance alone may add 15-20 hp lets say, but when you add a cam, head work, and port/replace the intake or something, the headers will flow more in conjunction with the new intake components. I would say headers/complete exhaust, rear gears, and maybe suspension will give you the most bang for your buck as far as seat of the pants goes. You will feel the rear gears for acceleration most for a few hundred bucks. The suspension will help you hook that to the road better and keep it planted. And the exhaust will show one of the biggest HP gains for a relatively easy bolt on...without digging into heads and cam of course. CAI as well is an easy 5 hp or so and works with the exhaust. I would do gears and headers first if it were me. You would probably be in the neighborhood of $1500 if you buy a complete exhaust set-up and gears...might be able to give or take a bit from that if you can find a nice used stainless exhaust system or something.

morrow

it can be done like i read, but you need to have some guide lines, tbi im not so shure about, im doin the same to a tpi 305 rated at 200 - 220 hp, given a larger cam, vortec heads and , pollished intake ports, a good set of flowing headers , bigger injectors, a reprogramed prom, and i nice big exaust system, with some forged pistons puting 10.5 to 1 compresion, i can see it being done, there is a lot more to it that i didnt mention but there are things to think about, go to chevythunder.com

MitchellDeMoor

Well, I went the really cheap and easy way and got a running/working 350. It is a cheaper route and easier route to go down. Trust me I did bolt ons on my 305 and was dissatisfied. It is a junk motor. This is my first project car and I didn't have much experience before but I am doing a hell of a job on my Camaro now. A 350 swap would be the cheapest trust me. But if you decide to stick with the 305 get a top end kit from somewhere. That has heads/cam/manifold/etc. Do a search for top end kits for your motor. And again you will need an exhaust. The '89 has a really restricted exhaust and you will notice a huge difference if you replace it trust me been there done that. Also you may want to connsider a new differential find a 4th gen Z28 rear and get some 3.73:1 gears. As you probably just have the peg leg w/ 2.73:1 gears which isn't that great. After the top end kit, exhaust, and rear end you will have a much better car! Enjoy man should be a lot of fun and a great learning experience.

thomas1976

The stock thirdgen TBI intake is not going to be restrictive for a long way. Once you'r over 280fwhp you can go with 46mm or 50mm TB.
Though fueling and tuning is worth and needs to be taken care of as soon as you start making around 15hp over stock.

morrow

never star with the top end, always star with the bottom and work your way up....

its gona bite u in the *** if you dont. sooner or later

you need to get a rebuild kit, you can get the at summit for realy sheap, with forged pistons, 600 bucks

and depending on the year of the heades, if they are swirl ports, you can wither machine out the exaust ports to flow better or you can get a set of vortec heads,
, and as i said befor , you will need headers, a cam , ecetra,

the main goal here is to make a good short block that can handle the added power and do it well . and change the pistons to hellp create more power.

but whatever you do, make it reliable, just throwing some heads and an intake and a new cam in isnt going to do that, its just gona create problems and leaks and such,

i think its great that some one sees a little potential with the 305, i also see it, that engine realy isnt what they say, you can make it one mean s.o.b.

bryce_w

I looked at both options for rebuilding a 350 and 305. parts for a 350 are more readly avalible and there for cheaper. It would have costed me an extra $800-$900 to keep it a 305 TBI. So I rebuilt a 350 with a Carb instead.

tekkitan

iTrader: (1)

Considering most parts for a 305 fit on a 350, I doubt that very highly. If you already have a 305 and no 350...

ericjon262

I wouldn't convert it, I would get a better ECM to run it and learn to tune, that should make a nice difference.

some will say carbs are easier, but thats only because carbs are stupid, they don't care about mods or anything, all they care about is engine vacuum. most carb motors never see their full potential because people think that because it's running that it's in tune, which is rarely the case.

also, in the USA it's illegal, though many states wont zing you on it, it technically is.

My 91 RS will stay TBI, even though they dont care about emissions in north Florida (oximoron I know) like they do in cali.

carfreak614

Well I currently have a 305 TBI in my camaro. I put headers w/y-pipe on it, a cat back exhaust system, an open element, underdrive pulleys, and took the whole smog pump assembly bull off the thing and it runs alot better.

My whole deal with upgrading the 305 any further is where you wanna go with the engine. The way I see it, I can either put all the money into my 305, or go buy a 350 TPI for the thing and then put all the money into it. When compared dollar for dollar, you'll be gettin more ponies from the 350. But if your looking to do something different I encourage you to build up the 305, you can build a 305 and get it to run pretty good. One of the guys I know at the drag strip around here built his 305 up and its bad for a 305, it whoops on the z/28's around here somethin fierce, but then again my buddy put about 1/3 less money into his 350 and it puts put more power than the 305.

See most of the mods I have on my camaro can be transferred over to the 350 easy. If I had the money I would like to build up a 305 but I'm looking to get more horsepower down the road so Im just gonna buy a 350 to put in it here soon.

ericjon262

"bang for the buck" and "TPI" dont usually come together very well. I don't really think TPI is all it's cracked up to be, unless your talking about LT1's which then I would say "hell ya!". but LT1's don't have a great bang for buck either compared to TBI, and TBI has more room to grow.

carfreak614

Yeah thats true, I was just using TPI as an example though. TBI would be a better bang for your buck, TPI is just a little more refined (no manifold wetting and better throttle response). In an old super chevy magazine I have they compared it on a scale from 1-10: carb being a 1, TBI being a 5, and TPI being a 10. If you were trying to squeeze power out of the 305 though, a TPI system supposedly boasts 15 horses over a TBI from what Ive heard. Just food for thought.

MitchellDeMoor

Replacing injectors on a TPI kills the budget while TBI is not as expensive because there is only two to replace. I remember I was doing up my old TBI 305 and needed new injectors. I went into a GM dealer and explained what I needed. The guy didn't really understand me and typed in TPI I nearly **** my pants. Then I said no TBI and he looked at me like I was retarded. So another gentleman came who knew his **** and put in TBI in the system and it was about a 1/3 the price. I still went with a carbed 350 down the road anyway.

thomas1976

If you were really concerned about costs you would have kept TBI. I mean even if you spend 700$ for the EBL flash, VAFPR, maybe 61-68 lbs injectors and higfow TB you will cover that expense quickly by wasting alot less fuel.
This is by supposing you drive the car, your 350 has mods and is putting 220+ hp to the rear weels. Because if not you can just grab 350 injectors and prom from the JY almost for free; thakes like 20 minutes to install.

You obwiously never owned a L98 powered thirdgen, nor had the chance to play with both sistems.
Your comment about trottle response is due to the Computer, the TBI ECM and tune is horrible vs the TPI ECM and its tune.

carfreak614

Yeah ive never actually had a TPI system to mess around with, a couple buddys of mine had some but thats about it. Yeah I know the tunes not that great compared to the TPI, thats why the TPI got a 10 and the TBI only got a 5. I would like to get a TPI system in the future though cuz I hear that its better than TBI alot, but then on here ihear that TBI is better than TPI so I figure I mine as well jus try out both systems and go from there.

paul_huryk

I want to point out that while 370hp in a 305 is more than possible - it will be at a power peak of 5,700 to 6,000 rpm. Not saying that RPM is a problem, but you will still have 305 TQ levels (350lb-ft at max TQ), while a 350 will have about 415lb-ft and peak 370hp at 5,400 or so. Power under the curve is the key, not only peak hp or hp/ci.

thomas1976

Its not only the tune, its the whole computer set up, the TBI one is wery slow.
Once the TPI and TBI are set up and upgradet correctly, for performance, there will not be a big difference other then estetics.
If your goal is power then you are locking in the wrong direction, because as already sayd in this tread exhast, heads, cam, fueling and tune need to be taken care of.
If you whant to discuss your project it would be better you start your own post with the details.
The OP has a 305 TBI and whants 370hp, swaping to TPI will not make the task easier.

bryce_w

Most yes but most heads for a 305 wont work with a 350 and because a fully assembled head is one of the most expensive thing on a motor, you can usually save a few bucks. Also you'll note I changed mine from TBI to carberated, also cheaper and I dont care what anyone says because I spent 4 months reasearching it. Now have a 440Hp motor that cost me $5000 in total, Vs $7500 to ''try'' and get a 305 TBI even close to that

ericjon262

Then why does everyone and their brother put 081's and 416's on their 350? both of those are 305 heads.

tekkitan

iTrader: (1)

Well yes. No one is talking about bringing a 305 to 440hp. As it's been said, it depends on what you actually want and what you can afford. I am betting someone could get a lot out of a 305 for less than the $5000 you spent on your 350. You aren't factoring in that some people don't have that kind of money to drop on a motor at the moment.

tekkitan

iTrader: (1)

I'm assuming that is why he said most. But I also said that most parts you get for a 305 will work on a 350, you just have to make sure before you go buying it so you aren't stuck with heads that you can't use if you want to upgrade the shortblock.

70's iron

I'll definitely follow the article's combination for 3 reasons :

-Here in France, emissions are controlled from 1988 only. My '83 Trans Am can run with a carb and cat-free true duals, and remain street-legal.

-Even if 305s are considered as dogs, I believe they can rev happily if well prepared.

-Imagine 3rd-Gens become great collectibles by 2020. I wanna keep mine numbers-matching. loooooooool

ericjon262

why? if your going to build a small displacement rev machine then start with at least a 302 with a 4 inch bore to get the valves un-shrouded

GXR11

few things here im questioning... lets level everything first... everything about the 305 and the 350 is the same except the bore, i.e. pistons and rings...these are the only parts that can't be swapped from one to the other, everything else about these motors is exactly the same, so no, it does not cost more to build a 305 vs. a 350.the 305 can make great power if your willing to rev it (not to much sounds better then a small block @ 7,000 rpm's). a 305 will rev better then the 350 from having less mass from lighter/smaller pistons.you can get over 400lbs from a 305, i did it, only its was around 4200 rpms(410lbs).motor peaked power at 467hp @6,800rpms. and you need alot of plemum(sp?) hight, i had 8.5 inchs from carb base to intake floor.basicaly a small tunnel ram so to speak. this was all done with stock crank and rods (X rods, only came in 305 HO motors if im correct) just nice balancing job, and a kb hypo piston with .1xx done (11:1 comp.)


OP, what your looking for comes down to what your plans are for the car, im talking about emmisions/inspection, i dont know what the laws are in your area, but if you have strict laws or no way of getting around them, it could be hard to make some nice power. if that isnt a concern. then with 2k id get a nice set of heads( i used dart iron eagles w/ 215 cc runners, 2.05I/1.6E valves.)single plane intake (i like the team G) a cam(solid lifter) that will get you into the revs. thas just the basics, you'll still need the lil stuff to compliment these parts.

but this is just on direction to go. & stop listening to the people saying just build a 350, they shoulda just built a 383 themselves, same price if your building it up from the bottom.

ericjon262

Not necessarily they have smaller valves, that can be upgraded to bigger valve, but when they do they begin to get shrouded by the cylinder wall. where as on 350, the larger bore allows for bigger valves with less shrouding.

BTW have you priced 305 pistons? 2 probs,

1. there aren't many off the shelf 305 pistons compared to a 350
2. because no one builds 305's the demand is lower, thus driving cost higher.

At the wheels or the crank? fit under a stock hood? run on pump gas?

I agree %100

Won't fit the 305's small bore. and he wouldn't have enough velocity to keep the fuel in suspension.

again, fuel in suspension

Why would you put a radical solid flat tap in a 305, it'll be a dog to drive anywhere, definitely not a fun car to drive


I'm not just saying, I'm giving reasons why, if you want a small displacement rev machine, destroke a 350 or 400, that way even big valves aren't shrouded, more airflow more power.

True, to a degree, but if you get a boneyard 350 and reuse most of the internals it's a hell of alot cheaper.

70's iron

I don't believe you find them easily in Europe.
And the 67 000 miles 305 is already in my car...

ericjon262

In your case it's different, but that's what EBAY is for right?

70's iron

Naaaaah, imagine the cost of a 302, plus handling and shipping.
For the same price I can probably get a LS-1. If I got to swap the engine, that's what I'd do...

ericjon262

I was joking, either way, if you bought a real chevy 302 and put it in a third gen, someone with a true 67-69 Z-28 in the middle of a resto would KILL YOU! I was suggesting getting a 350/327 and destroking it, or boring a 283

GXR11

*i'm just saying they will phyically bolt ion with no issues*
* and we're only talking less then .250 all around *

* when i odered my .060 over .1xx dome 305 pistons i had the in 3 days, and no additional cost then the norm. ones listed what you need is out there, they just dont list everything in catolauges(sp?)*


*crank, and yes pump gas, we had 94 at the pump till not to long ago*



* with a .060 over bore they have no problems fitting, turst me, we messured before just"slapping" them on, im not saying there wasn't a lil shrouding, but it worked just fine"

* it was a dog in the lower rpm range, i think i remember less then 200 hp untill 3800 before it statred making power... but after that, it became a retarded animal......thats called matching parts*


* car was a blast to drive, i only care about traight line, and not everyones version of a daily driver is the same, yes it was my daily driver for a while, and thats where a loose converter comes in and i put that cam in cause thats the type of motor i was building, it is what was needed to get the motor to do what i wanted it to do*



* hence why i was talking about building it up from the ground*


hope that clarified everything for ya.. any more questions or thoughts?

Irockz

iTrader: (1)

My question for you is,given the exact same $ figure that you claim,why build the 305 over a 350?Do you honestly think that the EXACT same combo in a bigger bore block would not make more power?Why spend the same cash for less?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

It may cost more to build a 305 because the parts don't have the volume that 350 parts do.

It absolutely will cost more to build a 305 than a 350 with the same power, because you have to rev the 305 higher to get the same power, and reving higher always costs more to do.

A 350 will make 370 HP for less money than a 305 will; a 350 will last longer making 370 HP than a 305 will; a 350 will make 370 HP in a more street-friendly manner than a 305 will.

But, you want to be "different" and build a 305, less power to ya.

ericjon262

You realize that even with a .060 overbore (which BTW does nothing for performance) the valves, assuming they are centered in the bore will be 0.098 inches from the cylinder wall.

3.736+0.060=3.796
2.05+1.6=3.6
3.796-3.6=0.196
0.196/2=0.098

And thats assuming the valves meet up perfectly in the middle with 0.0000 clearance between them

ericjon262

GXR11

the OP has a 305. not a 350.. so yes, at this point for HIM it will cost more to build a 350... and im not talking about getting the exact same hp/lbs. numbers.. im talking about buying parts and building one.. it will cost the same.. everyone and thier grandmother has a 350(including myself) dare we try to be diff and work with what we have.

never really knew what the valve to bore clearance was in that motor, just knew that there wasnt clearance peoblems, we set the motor at tdc, removed the srings and meassured how far it went untill it contacted the piston. we had about .250 between the valve at full lift .518/536(not accounting for lash) and the piston, so it fits, period. i sure i could have notched the top of the bore to reduce the shouding, but i was 17 at the time..1 never thought about that. my point, is you can make a 305 move pretty damn good... hell, my pop was going 12.1xx with a 283 30 plus years ago in a 57'... the only replacement for displacment is a power adder, or knolwedge(sp?, sry, few beers deep)... and it doesnt cost more to make a motor spin up high + maybe a lack of care for what the future holds for it, if im dropping a grand plus on some heads, i can either get something in the 195cc range or the 215's for damn close to the same $..and like i said, stock crank and rods, hell it had a stock oiling system and fuel sytem as well... that motor lasted for along time untill an ex room mates hated girlfriend(whole other story) started dropping washers or something down some peoples shyt, she got my other room mates bike 3 days before my motor.... who knows how long that 305 would have lasted, it had 25k on it at that time... im say'n, if ya got some loot to spend on a motor, build it how ya want, hell , have 23k into my motorcycle, it looks stock for the most part, its a lil over 1.1 liters(1147cc's to be exact) and is shifted at 12.5k ,but let me guess, some one thinks that its a dog also?.... anything else?

vangogh4560

i know the 305 gets a bad rap but it is a very good motor and can make lots of power. i just took out my 305 main bearing just went out and now a zz4 350 will go in more HP and can do a lot more with the 350. my old 305 in my 1987 LT with cam head work Edelbrock carb intake and headers would beat my buds stock 350 tpi all day. its just hard to say 2000$ to put into a 305 and that will be as good as it gets!!! I'm sure you can get a 350 for 2000$ and have a few bucks in your pocket and down the road can do a lot more with it just my 2 Penny's

ericjon262

But it's not different, most of us who have said don't build a 305, have learned from our mistakes, we've built 305's and 350's, we know what works and what doesn't, and we are giving sound advice, you're talking about spending $1200+ on heads when $1200 can get you a fairly nice 350 off craigslist or Ebay, hell, 1200 could get you a running 454 if you know how to play your cards.

If you have a 305 in your car, by all means, do the bolt ons, intake, exhaust, carb(or TB/runners ect), all of that stuff will transfer on over. if your looking to build a fast car, I would start with at least with a 4 inch bore motor. get the cylinder wall away from the bore. improve airflow, make more power, even with the same displacement. if you were to build a 305(3.736"bore, 3.48"stroke) and a 302(4"bore, 3 inch stroke) the 302 with all components the same except the pistons and the crank, the 302 would make more power because the valves are further away from the cylinder wall.

you also make the argument that the 305 would be cheaper because he already has one, but by the time you do anything to the 305 you could get a running 350 off craigslist.

With the $2000 the articale mentions, you could build a nice 350.

$800 for a motor (craigslist ebay local classifieds ect.)
$250 for an intake
$250 for headers
$120-$250 for a cam
$350-$450 for EBL if you wish to keep it TBI or for a carb

http://pensacola.craigslist.org/pts/1480283442.html
http://pensacola.craigslist.org/pts/1481866495.html
http://pensacola.craigslist.org/pts/1490104716.html
http://pensacola.craigslist.org/pts/1501655558.html
http://pensacola.craigslist.org/pts/1503167700.html

Do I need to continue?

Quinny

I have been quite interested in this article, it is about the only one I have found which really looks at the build of a 305 engine.

I am not sure what the rules are in America, but in Australia, changing to a 350 engine would mean having the car engineered, which means that it needs meet all of the Australian Design Rules, but it needs to meet the noise and emissions standards from the year of the engine - so if you have a brand new crate engine, then it needs to meet current emissions standards, which isn't going to happen. I know that if I went though the process and expense of getting and installing a crate engine, and then couldn't get the car registered - I would certainly be very annoyed.

Assuming that you pass, the need to go through the process of obtaining a new engine number from the motor registry and having it all signed off through them.

At least if you build up the stock engine you have the original engine number, and no need for engineering.

Third Gen Camaros are quite rare in Australia, which means that they are still a bit expensive here - you no chance of finding anything under AUD$8000 or so.

We have the Holden 5.0L (304ci) V8 engine in Australia, which is very similar to the 305 Chev in many ways - it came out as an underpowered cast iron lump and laughed off by many. The difference is that the Holden engine has a 4.000" bore, but shorter stroke which can be fixed with a stroker crank to 383ci.

I don't see why the 305 Chev can't apply the same principles of the 304 Holden engine (except being able to stroke it out) - improve the compression, heads, cam, intake and exhaust for more power. I don't see why 350-400hp should not be easily achievable with the right combination without spending the Earth.

GXR11

given the 2k $ cap... i could build a 305 with more hp if i already had a running one to start with over you having to go and spend half or so of your 2k just to start with a used 350, or worse starting with a fresh one that some one else built,it would have to come apart to be inspected , given a crosshatch(if needed) , new rings and bearings... no disrespect to the builder, but i never trust some elses build job... so add a gasket set, rings, bearings, oil pump, windage tray(seeing as how your already there)and bolt set to the cost.....

and your list didnt include a good set of heads, this will make all the diff. in the world if your chasing hp... id rather have a sweet set of aftermarket heads on a 305 with the rest of the right parts to compliment them the a 350 with stock heads(even if ya spend 50 bucks on a port and polish kit and clean them up yourself)... you just limited your hp potentional with junk fact. castings.... in this case.. the 305 just beat out the 350

ericjon262

By putting $1200 heads on it that has valves won't clear the cylinder wall???

Quinny

You can get heads which are designed for the 305... Trickflow make alloy heads for the 305 which flow 240+ cfm, which is plenty for a nice cam, which sell for around the $1000 - 1200 mark complete.