matthew911

Hey everyone. I'm on a tight budget and looking to put something together for under $1000 for my 84 Camaro, if possible. Not going with fuel injection. I have an Edelbrock carb that I'll probably re-use from the 305. The more I can transfer over from my current setup, the better. I don't need to take this to a strip. Just looking for a little more power while I cruise around the city.

Here's my question. I plan on scouring a local junkyard for an engine. Where's the best place to start for a 350? Would something pre-1987 be easier to build for what I need? My dad and I will be doing the work. His expertise is more on older engines. Let's say I want to spend no more than $300 at the junkyard...which cars/trucks should we be looking at? What has decent compression as is? The L98 looks good for what I want, but might be pricier than I'd like. L05 is a bit newer, but would this suit my needs? I have an older aluminum manifold, I want to say it's from the 70s/early 80s...would this still work on a newer 350?

If I can get some ideas from the knowledgeable people here, I'd very much appreciate it.

rusty vango

your best bet is to find a running engine at your local parts yard. drop it in and go

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

You can't "build" a motor for under $1000, if you don't even have a core yet. That's simply not realistic.

Best bet is one of 2 things: either save up another $1500 or so; or, find a running motor and just run it as-is as much as possible.

jokerZ71

You're best bet would be to find an L31 Vortec from a 96 to 99 truck.You will need a Vortec specific intake.With a good 4 bbl & headers on a healthy L31,you'll have approx 300 HP with no other mods & it will be a roller cam engine.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

yea i would probably look for a good running vortec or lt1 and do a swap. 300hp right off the bat, and you'd come in under the 1k budget.

90camaro355rs

if you go to your local pick n pull or as such, the ones here test run engines and trans to make sure they are good if the have keys or can work around not having a key, then you can pull an engine from a vehicle and have a running engine for less than 200.00 if you have a core to give them back.

Im not sure if all states cities are the same. our pick n pulls are good about stocking decent cars to choose from.

if you can find one that has decent cylinder walls yet might need bearings, you could infact build one for less 1000.00, if it didn't need much work, bearings (rod and mains) polish crank replace valve seals and gaskets wouldnt cost you much at all for an older 350.
break it down,
engine 200
polish crank 20 bucks at my machine shop
valve job 100.00 includes valve seals
master rebuild kit 200.00 rockauto.com
this kit includes
pistons
piston rings
rod and main bearings
cam bearings 20 to install
valve seals
all gaskets
freeze plugs 20 to install or they can be done by you
then a decent cam and lifter kit 115.00 from jegs

unless I have forgotten anything that's 675.00 and you have a good engine
even if you have to have it punched out that's what 160.00
that's 835.00 a new set of pistons 150.00 with rings

now that's 985.00

that is still under a 1000.00 last I checked

I am not saying you will have an engine to race with by no means, you will have one that would be a great daily driver.

look on rockauto.com they have the earlier 350 engine parts good brands cheap, dirt cheap.

a 1000.00 build is not out of the question

1gary

The truth in fact is with these master re-build kits the pistons included in them have the wrong piston pin height for ANY future performance builds,so you end up spending double in a do-over.

So as posted already,$1,000 dollars isn't enough.And the L31 answer is a good one,but only if you find one that hasn't been overheated or one that doesn't have cracked heads.

redneckjoe

you might find a deal on craigslist?

matthew911

Thanks for the replies. My current situation doesn't really allow for me to save much, so this WILL be done for $1000 or less. My car has been engine-less for about 5 years now, and I'm not waiting any longer to get it back on the road.

What does a vortec 350 usually go for in junkyards by any of you? Not sure I could afford to buy a cheaper engine and then add vortec heads/manifold. The only thing that worries me about newer engines is if there's more ECM/computer stuff to worry about. I'm not an expert on engines to begin with, I'm learning as I go. We're trying to keep the build old school to stay in my dad's comfort zone.

90camaro355rs

If the kid wants to build an engine for around a 1000.00 then yes it can be done. there are other ways of building an engine on a budget and YES a 1000.00 is doable and still be able to rebuild to a stronger engine later down the road, as was stated earlier its a daily driver.

So don't say it cant be done when I know first hand it can!

Never did I say he should do it the way I said, I just stated a fact that it could be done!

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I'd recommend buying a KNOWN GOOD used one, rather than trying to do an absolute bottom-feeder "rebuild".

You can buy TBI truck motors, L31s, even LM7s for WELL under $1000. Granted the LM7 will generate other expenses; but the point is, GOOD USED motors are out there, and avoid the risks and other downsides of a crap rebuild.

90, betting the farm on coming up with a core from somewhere that has good enough cyl walls to "rebuild" into, is about like betting on an inside straight when all you've got is the 2 outer cards. Not something SMART people do. Sure, we can all get lucky once in awhile; but PLAN ON IT? I don't think so. Plus, if the motor is so cherry that it can be "rebuilt" without boring, then it shouldn't have been tore down in the first place. Should have just been run. And of course, to get one like that, odds are, you have to pay GOOD USED RUNNING price ANYWAY.

Like so many things in life, just because it "can be done", or even "has been done", doesn't automatically make it A Good Idea to plan on doing it. There's a WHOLE WORLD of difference between "I did it once" and "you should bet your bank account on doing it too".

90camaro355rs

so fa king dom, a 1000.00 engine build is in no way a bottom feeder rebuild.

Fact of the matter is you can buy what you think is a known good engine, and a month later it come apart.

When buying a used engine it is always a good idea to take it down to a certain point to
inspect what you bought.

if this young man only has a 1000.00 that's all he has to work with. yall like the new engines that's why yall push them, I am old school and don't care for them, I do have one in my 04 suburban, that's the only place it will be.

nobody said he would be betting the bank account on it are you for real?

if he wants a daily driver then he could build a good solid engine for 1000.00, he never said he wanted a race engine, that would be a whole different story.

read his post, he asked if it was possible, I said yes it is, Then I broke it down, worst case.

yall must not have good salvage yards your way. We do, they check the engines and trans if they have keys to the cars or trucks.

so don't think what I am telling him is not possible. building an engine is easy if you know what needs to be done or can have someone show you.

I have read build threads on here of guys buying said good engines and trans only to find out they where just the opposite. 4.8 5.3 6.0, T56.

it don't matter what year engine or trans you buy, its always a crap shoot, unless you hear it run or drive the car!

step of so fa king dom

1gary

The reason why people ask for advise is to benefit from those with YRS of experience.Been there done that type.Nope,we not guessing here.Learn from that.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

most of the newer fuel injected engines will have pretty good bores in them. they arent like the carbureted engines of yesterday where you had to use a ridge reamer just to get the pistons out. i've torn down a dozen LT1's, and i dont think any of them had much bore wear. the engine in my gta is a freshened up LT1 that had around 140k on it. i honed it, put new rings in there, new bearings, decent rod bolts, and put new guts in the oil pump. stock heads were cnc ported. cam was a 236/248 on a 113 lsa. made 425 at the wheels through a th400/9" rear/28" slicks, and went 6.0000's in the 1/8 with a 150 shot.
i would imagine many of the late model vortec engines could be done the same way.

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

These roller engines like the vortec usually dont have too much wear. A honig,re-ringing just basic rebuild stay inside a grand. You can get good power out of em stock or step up your cam to around 470 lift. I did this and turned around 320hp. Not bad for around $1200 i had in it. The GMGoodwrench 350 is also a good route for around $1500.Put a lil bigger cam in it and it will make the 290hp engine they sell for $1999

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

I could buy running L31 vortecs for about $300 for quite a while. Add headers, and a performer rpm and it is very close to 300hp out of the box. You can machine the heads for a larger can, use some felpro 7733sh1 head gaskets, and you're looking at an engine in the 400+ HP range and still sipping pump fuel.

Another benefit of the vortec is they have the powdered metal rods like the LT1 cars did.

My 86 sport coupe was built for around $1200 total. I did use a lot of stuff I had laying around, but it went together for cheap, and would run 8.3x at the eighth mile, and I had never lifted a valve cover on the engine.

matthew911

My local junkyard has an 87 Firebird with the L98 350. I can grab it for $150. Any thoughts on that engine? Also, does a standard rebuild kit work fine with it? I've seen ones specifically for that engine, but they seem to go for a lot more than some of the other kits. Summit has one for $237, but technically it's for older engines. It's listed for up to an '86. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/su...-000/overview/

Northern Auto Parts has some decently priced kits, but a lot of those are only listed for years up til '80. Are any of those kits compatible? This one caught my eye. http://www.northernautoparts.com/part/ek-ek1097

Or do I need to stick with one that's specifically for the 87-92 year range for the L98?

Chevy2035

If you take your time and look around you can put a good running 350 together for 500$ easy, 1000$ and you can add some power but not much (Maybe 300-350 hp)

Vortec heads and intake if you can afford it once you get a running motor will be good for 40-50hp easy, Add a decent cam to that and your looking at a 80+ hp upgrade

matthew911

Thank you for your input. I'm hoping for some responses regarding my last post, though.

90camaro355rs

ok as far as your junkyard engine, ask them if you take it apart and find the block cracked or a spun bearing, will they give you your money back, other wise that's not a bad deal at all, now as far as your internals go, I don't believe they are any different, I know the gaskets are different from earlier models as the heads are a little different

matthew911

Thanks. So I should be safe with most standard rebuild kits, I might just have to get different gaskets? I could live with that.

ddeennis

Did you find an engine yet?

I am about to finish up a budget build 350, vortec head, for my sons car.

We have about 801 dollars in it so far, was able to score a 355 block
that was rebuilt back in 06 that had 8 pistons trashed ( 2 broke)
from going lean running 11.70's in the 1/4, the engine was free had no heads or tin, not even a cam.

Took it home tore it down, crank was good and the cylinder walls was ok.

honed out the cylinders and got on ebay a found some flat top hypers for 83 bucks shipped, another 57 to hang the pistons on the rods.

cleaned the block well, installed the crank after good cleaning
with new bi-metal bearings ( the rod, main bearings, gasket kit and rings
was like 55 bucks off ebay) installed the pistons with new rings and bearings- new 2 piece seal from gasket kit installed too.

so the part was done and it was cheap.

next came cam, bought a 234/244 @ .050" cam/lifters for 103 bucks.
double roller timing chain 25 bucks.

scored a 305 engine for 100 bucks, was going to use the heads
on the 350 but heads was junk, so that left use with some usable parts
like the Harmonic balancer, oil pan bolts, timing chain cover and bolts
and cam sproket bolts, fuel pump push rod, a lot of smalls to complete
an engine.

Loaded up what was not useable and hauled of for scrap and got 60
bucks of our 100 back.

Scored a set of used vortec heads 062's ( 100 bucks) and tore them down,
ported the heads and lapped the valves back in to clean up the seats.
cleaned the heads very well and bought new springs, retainers (+.050")
and keepers for 89 bucks plus new stock seals 16 bucks.

So heads are done and plenty of clearance for cam lift .488"/.510"

bought new head gaskets- steel shim gaskets .015" final compression ratio
came out to 10.2 to 1 compression, gaskets 22 bucks.

bought new oil pump, 20 bucks, swap out standard spring for high pressure spring i had spare, new steel shaft 8 bucks and new pick up screen 5 bucks.

scored oil pan for 10 bucks.

so we are at 633 bucks at this point. and the long block is done.

got on ebay got a new vortec air gap intake for 105 bucks

plus intake gaskets for 16 bucks.

valve covers came off 305 engine we scraped - center bolt, so was able to use them on the vortecs, new gaskets for that was 12 bucks.

still have to finish up a few things, clean the the rockers that cam with vortec heads and clean the push rods that cam out of the 305 and get those on, hardest part is over, tape the engine off and spray bomb it.

Bought some comp cams break in oil for 35 bucks

it could have been cheaper if the 305 heads would have worked, but
with the vortec heads the extra cost is worth the extra power
the vortec will give. we did buy an eddy rpm intake for 30 bucks which is not included in price but I could add it then sell the intake to bring price down another 100 bucks ( maybe if i could get 130 out of a nice used intake) but I'm not going to sell it.

Gasket kit was about worthless, couldn't use head gaskets, or intake
gaskets or valve cover gaskets, but for what little I paid for the "kit"
bearing, rings, gaskets. it's fine, I'll use that other stuff at a later
date on something else.

by the time we get this engine in my sons car we will be well under 1k
and his car should run in the mid 13's around 105 mph pretty easy even with 2.73 gears with 3k stall and th350 tranny.

I built a roller cam tbi engine for less then 1200 bucks and 600 of that was
for a core engine from a roadmaster that I tore down, the stupid metric rings for that engine
was 125 bucks, but was able to use basic bi metal bearings, oil pump and such and bought a used stock roller cam off ebay that had much bigger lift and duration, ported the swirl port heads, it was a torque engine for sure for my 93 suburban and got 18 mpg with 35" tires.


So under 1k can be done, my sons 305 had about 300 bucks in its rebuild and most of that money was spent on cam lifters and springs and it
turns 15.2 at 93 mph.

1gary

10.5 SCR with steel heads on pump gas??.Hummm

ddeennis

Hummm what?, there is not a problem with 10.2 on 87 octane with
that lumpy cam, the dcr is in the mid 7's cranking compression will
be around 150 psi. if anything I needed the compression closer to 11 to 1
to really wake the low end torque up. But because of the terrible deck height of .038" ( cheap pistons, non decking of the block) I did what I could with a .015" shim gasket- for a total of .053 down the hole, but 10.2 and a 3k stall will work just fine.

I built a similar engine a few years back for a friend, we spent less then 1200 bucks on his 350 engine- 350 bored .060 over, dome pistons, some really worked over 882 heads, same 234/244 @ .050" cam with .488/.510 lift, 10.2 to 1 compression, 3k stall and 3.73 gears with 22 initial timing/36 total, out of box 750 eddy carb. ran 13.2 at 103 mph- not bad for first outing and no other tuning, if the friend would have been more interested in some track numbers I'm sure I could have gotten it in the 12's and over 105 mph, but he was happy with the combo the way it was, would light up the tires at 30-35 mph leaving black marks and he was happy with the
lumpy idle. car ran best numbers shifting at 6500 rpms but would turn 7200 rpm with out a problem.

So with this "newer" engine with vortecs, it should produce a little more power and I can tune it at the track, it will have great mph, but e.t will
suffer some with the lack of gears.

All the engine I build are 10 plus to 1 compression and run on 87 octane, even my bbc 396 with 11.8 to 1 compression and 262/273 @ .050" runs on 87 octane. And my 10.5 to 1 454, 10.7 to 1 454, 10.2 to 1 454 and list goes on.

If one knows what he/she is doing and what they want out of the engine high compression is not an issue. Most internet mechanics have no clue. I post what I build and provide information when I can from experience just not from what I have read like so many do.

So if you don't think it's possible go build one for yourself and post back,
good luck.

1gary

Not much into the read only part of engine building. It's a yeng yang leaving that much on the table with a cam that bleeds that much off where your gains are not as much as if you matched the SCR to the cam.

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w..._compatibility

I've been preventing damages from detonation and teaching the willing to learn for quite awhile.

1gary

You know,I quickly looked at you numbers and thought he needs to check his calculations. Got to attend to my BBQ now.

TTYL.

ddeennis

Almighty know it all, what seems to be the issue with the numbers?

Static compression ratio of 10.2:1.
Effective stroke is 2.44 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.45:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 144.89 PSI.


Like I said would have liked to push the compression a little higher
but I get what I get for a budget build, as fair as power goes, everything being equal another point in compression is about 4% more in power, so about 16 hp being left on the table. Another point in compression
would push it a little past 8 to 1 dcr. Still pump gas territory, a good range
is between 7.5 and 8.5 dcr to run pump gas, I also take into account
actual cylinder pressure, I have no issues running pump gas with cylinder pressure under 185 psi.

Static compression ratio of 11.2:1.
Effective stroke is 2.44 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 8.15:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 162.85 PSI

So whats your deal? whats your problem? You started off acting like
someone can't run 10.5 to 1 compression with iron heads, sounds like you need some schooling, your coming of as a jerk and I responded with real world builds, ya maybe not perfect but it's give and take when you do budget builds, the heads flow well enough to support the given rpm
of the cam, the compression is within range of what the cam manufacture wants which is 10- 11 to 1 compression ( granted it's on the lower end of the scale) the dcr is what I said it was mid 7's and about 150 cranking
psi. the cam has supporting parts to work in it's power range, they only down side is a little lack of compression which kills a little low end torque and some top end power. It's not the end of the world losses.

At the end of the day I'm sure there's not one person who will say man
that engine is crap you run ONLY 105 plus mph out of that for less then 1k
you got robbed, man that engine is all wrong. Most will say thats pretty good mph out of a simple build like that way to go.

Even if I was to drop down in cam size some the smaller cam will not make more power on top, the smaller cam would increase low end torque but not over all hp.

So what the deal with the numbers, ya you don't know crap.

Unless you have some real world experience to share and real engine builds with numbers to back it up, maybe you just need to zip it and keep feeding your face with BBQ.

You have not said one thing to make this post any better it's, all negative
crap................you can't do this and you can't do that, it can't be done..........

1gary

The whole point of my posts is positive.To prevent a user from doing harm to his project.Detonation can and does happen in upper RPM regions where it can't be heard and is a silent killer of engines.Take one of your spark plugs and look at it with a magnifying glass.See the specks??.

Way,way,beyond just me,the gold standard is 9.5 SCR with steel heads.And has been for a very long time.So your argument with what you think is just me isn't valet.

There is in fact a user right on this very forum named "Skinny" who has been chasing detonation problems.And he just went,as I suggested,in a range of .035 to .040 quench.

In every case to fix high SCR's for steel heads,anything gained by that high SCR is lost by the concessions you have to make if in ignition timing or cam timing events where the intake charge is polluted.So those higher SCR's(beyond 9.5 with steel heads)just become meaningless bragging rights.Pitted piston tops do not out preform a matched cam and SCR.Compound that with cheap cast pistons and then the fun begins.

So Sir,it very well may be your adventure on your wallet,but for god's sake,don't hurt these guys with your advise.The guys on here deserve much better than that.

To sum it up is in my signature and I do think you get the meaning of it.

ddeennis

And for over 25 years I have looked at the plugs because some of these engine also run nitrous, all you are is a book worm with no real life experience, you do nothing out in the field and all your talk is theory, anyone with building engine experience knows quench is very important, I do what I can to keep it around .040" but like I said sometimes you live with what it is durin budget builds, but even then it's not all the end of the earth since .060" is about the point quench really becomes the issues
getting beyond this.

well anyways this can be a pissing match all day, the bottom line is your preaching book crap that has been proven BS, Like I said get out and build
these f'n engines and run them, then toss the f"n booksout the window.

I run my crap at the track, tell my timeslips what the "rules" are, I have looked at the plugs and I know how to read them.

Real world experience orsomeone who reads more then they do................I will go with the man who builds the zhit and runs it over some nerd who thinks they know it all.

I built and ran an engine over the weekend and broke it in, what did you do??????????? more food at the BBQ,ya take a hike, once again you don't know **** , just theory

1gary

This.............My shop:



LOL................he knows me soooooo well that...........

ddeennis

Well then let's put all you vase knowledge to work, oh you say the limit for cast iron heads are 9.5 so let's build a 396 bbc for example using YOUR terms, so the engine is 9.5 to 1 so that means according to your claimed
web page a cam no bigger then 212 degees @ .050", so that means stock
converter, stock style intake like a performer and say a 600 carb because
you are a book worm who probly uses the stupid cid calculator for cfm.

So what do you think this 396 bbc will run??????????

You know what, I have built this engine before and it's a TURD that runs
in the 15's. low end torque is horrible, no top end power, you just built
a stocker.

You want to run high 11's, then give the same engine, 11.8 to 1 compression, with cast iron heads and big azz cam 262/273 @ .050", 3500 stall and some 3.73 gears, single plane intake and a 850 holley double pumper and turn the -itch to 7k. All on 87 octane and pushing 150hp nitrous for 10 second passes on 92 octane.

tell me more about your theory's..........again you don't know crap, following YOUR rules no one would have the fun of turning
rpms and cranking out some good times.


You still going to post more about the garbage you are pushing?

Your telling everyone you can never run more then 9.5 to 1 compression
with cast iron heads, your also trying to tell everyone you have to run
these small cams. no more then 212 degrees. do you realize how
dumb this all sounds to the well seasoned mechanics who builds engines
and race.

I tell the truth and what the outcome is, I read ALL the same crap you did
and I bought into it in my younger days, once I really started to build and race engines and have FUN, that book crap was all thrown out the window.

I know enough about you and your posts you don't have enough
back ground experience in real life, just talk and BBQ's

1gary

Your answer is.........



Opps.......................LOL.

1gary

Trial and error huh??.




Again.....OPPS!!!.LOL

ddeennis

If this is yours looks like you don't know how to build or tune, you just suck all around. You just need to stop posting.

90camaro355rs

man thats kind of harsh, you may not like what he has to say, he is mocking you with the pictures and the oops again, anyone that has a drag car such as one in the pics knows how to tune and build. if they didn't they would be broke and out of racing!

90camaro355rs

my sons car has steel sportsman 2 heads with 11.5 SCR and runs great on pump gas. has been that way for at least 8 years now

1gary

When people post things like this Sir(I mean that respectfully too),the first thought I have to to question how they came to that SCR.Then if they are running a cam that big with a big overlap,advise them of revision where much of it is being pushed back into the intake before the intake valve closes.That I am not using the cam-compression capability link as a book worm,but as a mechanical fact written better than I could.I don't doubt one bit the compression does create power and in fact I'm right in the middle of a build sheet for a 496 BBC 13.5 race only engine.The multi sources of limiting the SCR to 9.5 on pump gas goes far beyond me and my own personal experiences.

And yeah...........I was having some fun with a overreacting DD.

90camaro355rs

1gary, Let me be the first to correct myself, my son SCR is 5.7, I was looking at the sheet and miss read one line for another, 11.5 SCR would be a lot! I should have had a ruler to follow. his compression ratio is 11.5 ta 1, it runs off 91 octane.

I read what you replied and looked back at my sheet and knew I had made a mistake.

1gary

Thank You for your reply.

1gary

I have to add to this.5.7=350 cubic inch engines.Post piston brand name and part number,head gasket thickness compressed,heads part number and size of head chamber,if the block was decked or not,stroke of the crankshaft.From that we can plug in those numbers and figure the SCR.That is the static compression ratio.

bestracing

Yea, I was taken back by that as well. It has been my experience as well that as a general rule that 9.5 is about the highest you want to go with steel heads on a Gen I SBC.

matthew911

This wasn't the direction I envisioned this thread going, lol. ddeennis, I haven't picked up the engine yet. My old 305 is at my dad's house a few hours away. Waiting for him to haul it over here to get the core charge back on the new one.

I don't plan on going too crazy on this thing, if we get it over 300hp I'll be happy. We'll reuse whatever we can and replace what we need to, with a couple upgrades along the way.

ddeennis

general rule for those who don't know anything about this hobby

Yep got it all done and running, my son has about 400 miles now on the budget 350 vortec head sbc, 10.2 to 1 compression, running great on 87 octane fuel, took it out for the first time over the weekend- ME as a driver and gave the engine hell, ran a stopwatch 14.2 second 1/4 mile time with speedo pegged and brought it back took some plugs out and they look great no detonation issues. running 2.73 gears out back not to shabby.

now that the little 350 has some rpms (6500 shift point) to run I will switch out the gears to 3.08, should cross finish line just over 6k in second gear. timing is 22 initial and 32 total, will crank it up at the track to see what it really needs.

head to the track in a few weeks and get this liitle 350 dialed in, should hit some 13's pretty easy with around 105 mph trap speeds, not bad for a
low budget 900 dollar build.

My son happy as could be, this weekend building a 2 1/2 dual exhaust system with some chambered mufflers to replace the 2 1/4" exhaust that I built for the 305 we just replaced.