TRAXION

I installed the Hooker Long Tube 2210's not too long ago and I wanted to write down my installation notes for everyone...


Pictures and Sounds (pictures are high quality 500k+):
Some pictures of the installed headers:
http://www.bescaredracing.com/iroc/e...ders/longtube/

Ground clearance pictures (the rearend is sitting a little high because I forgot to take the air out of my rear airbags from the last trip to the dragstrip):
http://www.bescaredracing.com/iroc/e...ube/clearance/

Sound with open headers:
2.6M WMV file - http://www.bescaredracing.com/iroc/m...en_headers.wmv

Idle sound with full exhaust connected (yummy).
A) Full Exhaust = Hooker Long tubes, Mufflex Y-Pipe, no cats, Flowmaster Force II single 3" in/out exhaust (PN 17150). To be more specific, the 17150 system comes with a 30-Series muffler with a PN of 53033.
1.3M WMV file - http://www.bescaredracing.com/iroc/movies/idle.wmv
B) Full Exhaust = Hooker Long tubes, Mufflex Y-Pipe, no cats, Flowmaster Force II intermediate pipe with a dynomax UltraFlo Welded straight through single 3" in/out muffler. To be more specific, this muffler is PN 17233. As far as I know, I am the first one to try this muffler on an F-Body.
2.84M WMV file - http://www.bescaredracing.com/iroc/m...nomax_idle.wmv


Installation Notes:
1) If the motor and tranny are in the car the headers will slip in from underneath the car. If the motor is out of the car then you will need to lay/tie the headers to the fenderwell as you drop the motor in. The motor will not drop in with the headers attached.
2) You'll need a ministarter or an LT1 starter.
3) I relocated the knock sensor to the driver's side because there is more clearance there.
4) I had to grind on the front driver's side part of the k-member where the a-arm attaches (front corner) to ensure I wouldn't get any rattles there. Very minor clearancing – probably not even necessary but I wanted to be sure. Click HERE to see the minor clearancing.
5) I had to grind on the passenger side of the k-member where the LT was touching. Primary tube #8 was touching the K-Member here. This had to be clearanced for my application. Click HERE to see the problem.
6) The driver's side header demands that you jack the engine up in order to slip the header in from the bottom. You’ll have to remove the oil sending unit and the filter.
7) The passenger side header slips in with no jacking of the motor (starter removed).
8) To install the headers you want to point the collectors STRAIGHT down at the ground and rotate into place.
9) You need to install the starter while installing the passenger header - it’s the only way. I was able to do this by myself but two people would have made it easier.
10) I used Permatex Copper RTV around the slip tube (ala MAFB).
11) You can't run the stock oil cooler with these headers - it needs to be removed or modified. Rick Lindstedt modified his and made it functional (Skweezn87).
12) You have 2 options with regard to the oxygen sensor. If you are getting a Mufflex Y-pipe then you can order it with O2 sensor bungs. Problem solved. If you have a custom Y-pipe or if you want to put it in the header then the oxygen sensor bung should go on the driver's side TOP of the collector - not the side. There’s more clearance on the top. Get it welded in before you get the headers coated. Definitely consider using a heated O2 sensor. Part numbers and info on this can be found by using the search. I’m using a ’92 Corvette ZR1 heated O2 (bosch 13077). Click HERE to see how the O2 sensor is installed.
13) If you are going to run the Mufflex TPI-Y pipe for the hooker 2210’s (Part Number TPI-Y or TPI-Y O2 available from Mufflex Performance) then be prepared that it will most likely not ‘bolt-in’. I have to take the car to a local speed shop to have them chop up and reweld it. The passenger side hit the passenger side frame rail. The driver’s side didn’t hit anything but tucked up way too close to the stock Torque Arm mount.
14) If you are mating a Mufflex Y to a 3" catback then you will need a 4"-to-3" adapter.
15) No matter what - do not expect to bolt-up the mufflex y-pipe to the I-pipe of your catback. You will need to separate your I-pipe from the converter (or from the bend that goes to the manifold y-pipe if you don't have a converter). You'll then need to either shorten or lengthen your I-pipe to the correct length to mate to the mufflex y-pipe. If you are using the 4"-to-3" adapter then you can expect to expand the entry into your I-pipe so that the y-pipe 4"-to-3" adapter can fit into it. My personal experience shows that a flowmaster force II catback for a dual cat car requires an extra section of 3" pipe since the Mufflex y-pipe is about a foot away from that system's I-pipe (because the after-cat special flowmaster y-pipe from this system is no longer used).
16) Consider Installing some ES poly engine mounts or new engine mounts before taking on this project. The last thing you want is to get everything installed and then replace your motor mounts at a later date and realize there are interference problems. It's easier to deal with these interference problems during the install. NOTE that my installation of the ES Poly engine mounts may have been why I had to do a little bit of extra clearancing. But, this only a possible explanation - it has not been proven.
17) I pulled all the wiring that wrapped around the bottom of the driver's side oil pan and reworked it - not necessary but this will ensure you don't toast any of the wires on the long tubes.
18) The 2210’s have great clearance with L98 angle plugs (my experience) and regular angle plugs (Rick Lindstedt's experience) when using 90 degree spark plug boots. Straight plugs will have a clearance problem with plug #7 (Phil87IROC's experience). To fix the problem with the #7 plug Phil made a shorty plug. To see Phil's pictures click HERE.
19) Be careful when running the positive battery cable to the starter. The passenger primary tubes tuck up pretty close. I used the stock bracket that bolts to the block to secure the cables and ordered some Fire Sleeve from Summit to ensure the wires are protected.
20) I used a Lokar engine dipstick (ED5001). Very expensive but works great for this application. With the LTs there is nowhere to mount the dipstick.

David Tuschoff also has a nice Hooker Long Tube installation with some great pics from underneath the car. He had a custom stainless Y-Pipe fabricated. His website is:
http://exit3.i-55.com/~davidlt/exhaust.htm

That’s everything that I can think of for right now.

Tim

Skweezn87

Looks like you have it pretty much covered...

I did modify my factory oil cooler to work w/ LT's tho... not real hard.

Rick

Timmys88Z

Damn, sounds like a lot. And here I thought the Hooker's had no problems at all fitting...

Momar

Mine didnt. Mine fit right in. I also used ported stock style heads where as he used afrs (I would if I could afford it right now ) I also used stock replacement motor mounts and I believe he used es poly mounts. The reason I didnt go polly is because I had heard from several people that they raise the motor up around 1-1.5 inches and I didnt want to deal with clearance issues. Speaking of that did it seem to raise your motor up any? I figure if I break one I will use the poly or do something like the grand national guys do and strap one side of the engine mount down to the crosmemeber. I am thinking though it seems like they usually say that those raise the motor up around 1.5 inches. If that is the case it could be why you had to have the muflex pipe modified to work. By the way I started my car up for the first time this last weekend with the new motor and open headers. Man it sounds mean. Oh, and do you have pics with the y pipe installed so i can see what kind of modification had to be made to clear. The mufflex pipe has 2 3" pipes that merge into one 4 dont they?

Ben

Momar

Oh, and I installed a normal starter and did it after the headers were installed so it is possible at least with rubber motor mounts.

Ben

David 91RS/Z28

I had my O2 bung welded at the 3 o'clock position if your looking at the collector. Plenty of room with a 5speed. Pic below.

Under chassis pic of long tubes

Also, I didn't have to jack up any side of the engine. Maybe I got lucky. Great write up Trax.

Mark A Shields

Wow, hope my Hedman's slide in a lot easier

New starter too, dang.

Momar

What size is your y pipe before it merges? Does it have to lower to clear the crossmember or does it go straight back?

Ben

TRAXION

Thanks for the props Dave. BTW - before you even posted I had already printed out your pics for the exhaust shop that will be 'fixing' my Mufflex Y-pipe. I know that yours is a custom stainless Y and is different than the Mufflex but at least they will see what a good exhaust can look like

I am surprised that you didn't have to jack up the driver's side. Hmph.

Off subject here - what do you think of the CC 987 springs? I'm still running the stock AFR springs and am getting worried. You have probably heard about Mike D's trouble with them and I know that you talked to Kevin about the 987s. How high do you rev your motor? Also - What does it take to make the 987s fit the standard AFR spring pockets? Do I have to modify the pockets or the springs? Would be cool if I could just call up Thunder, get a set, and slap them on the car with the heads still installed.

Tim

David 91RS/Z28

It is 3" which collects into a 3.5" collector. The whole exhaust is basically level from the headers back. I did trim the cross member some so it could be tucked up as much as possible. I have very good ground clearance.

David 91RS/Z28

Hehe....thanks! I was expecting to jack up the motor as well, but both sides slipped right in. Actually I had to take the headers in and out a few times to check clearance on the crossmember.

As for the springs, they work awesome. With the cam your using, you better change the springs. I would put money on it that you will see valve float. I shift my car around 6000rpms. With the stock AFR springs I was getting float at 5800rpms. With the new springs, no problem. I set them up at about 1.85" for aproximate 130lbs on the seat. I'm also using the Ti retainer. These springs have a lot of room to be setup for very large camshafts. We use them religously on all our double spring LS1 cylinder heads(hydraulic roller). For installation on the AFR heads w/o machining all you will need to do is machine down the locator about .10" The locator that is used with these springs are 1.55" diameter and the pocket in the AFR head is aproximately 1.45" or so. When I installed mine I just trimmed them down on a belt sander while rotating the locator. Be sure to trim, trial fit, trim and fit as you want the locator to just fit in the pocket. Send me an email at work (david@thunderracing.com) and I will get back with you on pricing and parts.

TRAXION

What's weird is that I apparantly am one of the only ones NOT experiencing valve float ... yet. Trust me - I have taken the car to 6600rpms on multiple occasions with no float. I'm also running the AFR HydraRev. But, something is definitely different with my AFR head combo as compared to other people. The 230 Xtreme lobe is definitely agressive so I would have expected to see float. In any case - I appreciate the post and what it takes in order to make them fit. But, I think that I probably need something stronger because the 987 specs are basically the exact same as the specs for the springs that AFR installs. Unfortunately, that ultimately means that I will have to pull the heads and have the seats machined for bigger springs.

Have you taken your car up to 6500? Are you running the stock AFR valves?

Tim

Momar

I am no expert but I would think it was because of your rev kit. I thought that was supposed to make it so that you didnt have to run as heavy of springs to prevent valve float so you wouldnt collapse lifters with to heavy of springs. The kit claims to stop valvefloat and of coarse you are going to need to use a correct spring pressure, but what is correct with the rev kit? Basically what I am trying to say is usually the valve spring has to hold the lifter in the bore on its own but with the rev kit holding it down also that should factor in. Since the lifter is held down by the rev kit(to an extent) then the main job of the valve spring is just to keep the play out of the valve train and make sure the valve closes. From the pictures I doubt that it would be safe to let the rev kit do even most of the work of holding down the lifter, but isnt part of what these kits do is also is hold down the lifter in the bore to keep you from loosing oil pressure if you have a part fail in your valvtrain so the pushrod is no longer holding the lifter in the bore Well, I guess correct me if I am wrong but that is what I understood it to do. Anyway, if this is true even to an extent how much lower should the spring pressure be with the rev kit. Do you know how much pressure the springs on the rev kit are supposed to produce?

Ben

David 91RS/Z28

I'm sure the hydra-rev kit is helping and if you have Ti retainers. The springs are definitely not similar at all though. I believe the AFR springs are setup around 1.750" for 120lbs and roughly 290ish open. At the exact same installed height the 987's will be around 140-145 and roughly 340ish open. This is a very stout spring for most of the hydraulic roller applications. On some of our LS1 applications, the 987's are setup around 150-160lb's on the seat. We've tested them quite a bit and they have taken everything we threw at them. I don't rev my engine over 6 because I don't need to and yes, I do have the AFR installed valves.

TRAXION

Hey Dave,

I am going off specs that Mike D. not only gathered from AFR techs but also via measuring his own springs. My springs are installed with 125# on the seat at 1.800". Mike D measured the springs as having a 352# which puts me at close to 320# at the nose (0.550 lift). With his springs shimmed to produce close to 330# on the nose he still got valve float. The CC 987s have a 344# rate. According to all the specs, they won't give me anything above and beyond what my current springs are doing.

Another point of note is that I got my AFRs long before you guys did. Maybe somehow the springs changed? Different manufacturers? Who knows. The part number on my invoice is still the same as what is supplied now.

I understand that you are using the 987s in some serious applications. But, applications such as the LS1's really don't count. The actual weight of the LS1 valves is so much lighter than the AFR valves. Thus, if the AFR heads have the stock valves then a much stiffer spring is needed. You might want to check with Mike/Kev ... they did A LOT of research on gathering valve weights along with measuring the stock AFR valve weights. I don't want to give away their research but let's just say I was surprised by the differences in weights.

Tim

Phil87IROC

iTrader: (1)

Trax,

How did you get 60cc chambers on your AFR 190s, mine are 64cc?? Milled?

Great looking motor Trax.

Let me know how the S-10 steering box "feels" on a road course type driving experience?

Thanks!!

TRAXION

Phil,

When I ordered my AFR heads I asked them for 60cc chambers. They cut them to whatever you want (with a fee of course).

The words "S10 Steering Box" and "road course type driving experience" don't mix. The S10 box is only an interim choice until I figure out how to get my power steering back.

Tim

Momar

Why cant you use your power steering? Is it because of that bracket you have for the supercharger?

Ben

Phil87IROC

iTrader: (1)

I gotcha on the steering box, makes sense.

What is your CR, like 10.25:1 or so? How will the Vortec do on a 10+ CR motor?

Thanks,

Phil

PS: Good thing I have time off for Christmas, I need to make another "shorty plug" for cylinder #7!!

TRAXION

I can't reuse the stock Power Steering setup due to the custom Vortech Bracket. My Compression Ratio is under 10. I don't know for sure what it is unless someone knows the cc's of the valve reliefs in the '90-'92 pistons? Piston design changed in 1990 and I can't find anything published regarding the size of the valve reliefs. My cranking compression is 185psi with a compression guage.

Tim

Shagwell

185 lbs compression? - somewhere around 9.7:1

Momar

Thats awsome. Do you have any pics of the modified y pipe on the car? What did they have to do to it? Obviosly they got it tucked upt there pretty good.

Ben

TRAXION

Momar,

To get pics of the y-pipe I would need to get the car on a lift but that isn't happening anytime soon

I think the just chopped and added some wedges.

Tim

1982chevycamaroz28

hey TRAXION few quick questions about the headers. i was wounderin what is the part number for the hooker supercomp long tube headers for the 82-92 camaro from Jethot? also are all the primary tubes all welded on or is there a few on the passenger side that arent? also is there any way that jet hot could have them welded on or do u have to clamp any of the pipes becuz ive heard of people havein exuast leaks? thanx.

Momar

Well, I am not who you asked for, but I have them also. Anyway, There is one that slip fits and all of the rest are welded together. I have not heard of anybody having a problem with them leaking though. You are not supposed to need a clamp for it either. The reason it is like this is to allow access to the starter so I doubt you would want to have it welded. Oh, and the part number is 2210.

Ben

1982chevycamaroz28

so that one pipe just slips right in and when its all bolted to gether theres no problems since it would i guess be very tight when bolted to the head.

Momar

It just slides in there real tight and yes the bolts keep it from going anywhere. Here is a link to one of TRAXION's pictures with his out.

http://www.celligent.com/tim/iroc/headers/DCP_0690.JPG

Ben

1982chevycamaroz28

thanx for u r help my brother told me about that pipe and what he has heard but after hearing the results from u guys im not worried anymore about that pipe. sounds like im orderin them on wed.

TRAXION

The key here is sealing the pipe during installation. Just use Permatex Copper Silicone. Smear it over the separate pipe with your finger ... be generous. Slip the tube in and bolt it up. Wait about 24hrs before firing her up. I learned this from the 4th-gen crowd. The hooker LTs for the 4th-gens have a slip fit on the #1. The permatex copper silicone method is tried and true.

Tim

Momar

Well, I didnt seal mine at all, but have only started it a couple of times so far. I guess if it does happen to leak I know how to fix it now. The good thing is its not real hard to pull that primary out.

Ben

1982chevycamaroz28

hey thanx for that tip on the permatex stuff. and when my brother told me about that one tube leakin he told me the 4th gen guys have troblem with it leakin and what not and i guess u found a very nice simple solution to the problem. thanx for ur help guys.

David 91RS/Z28

Actually Tim, the LS1 valve weights may or may not be lighter depending on application.

My AFR installed valves were as follows: Intake(Manley 2.02) = 109grams, Exhaust(REV) = 114.3grams. For whatever reason AFR used different manufactures on the valves for my heads??

Now, the LS1 valves I measured from one of our stage 2 cylinder heads: Intake(Ferrera) = 122, Exhaust(Ferrera) = 101.9. As you can see the intake was heavier and the exhaust was lighter. This is because the valves are actually longer. Now, I'm sure a stock LS1 valve would be pretty light, but whose going to use stock valves on a good set of heads.

BTW, your exhaust come out really good. I think the longtubes/mufflex is the best sounding combo on this earth!!

David 91RS/Z28

I've been using anti-seize compound on the slip tube with no problems. It works great for installing the tube and removing it at a later date if necessary. Good luck!

1990GTA

How ??

TRAXION

I made some changes to include the latest information about this installation. All the changes have been incorporated into the first post of this topic. TTT.

Tim

11SEC91Z

iTrader: (4)

TRAXION? Was wondering how well the mufflex y pipe works.I am getting ready to put the exact setup on my car and wanted to know if the mufflex y pipe was worth the 250.00?Got any advice?

TRAXION

Is it worth $250? Well, honestly, I don't think so. Why? Because you'll probably spend another $100-$200 to have it installed since I have yet to hear ANYONE using this Y-pipe that was able to just bolt it in. I ended up paying $180 to have an exhaust shop spend 3 hours of work chopping it up and reinstalling it along with an extra 3" section to have it mated to my catback. I actually paid $150 for mine used so it ended up not being too bad. But, in the long run, what choice do we have? Either buy the mufflex y-pipe, have a shop fab one up, or do it yourself. The best approach remains to be seen.

Tim

Timz2882

iTrader: (1)

Hey traxion or anyone who has installed these. ive noticed that with almost everyone that has installed these headers , they've had the ES motor mounts and not the regulare rubber motor mounts. dont u think that it would be easier to install these headers becuz the motor isnt sittin like .75'' to 1.5'' or how ever much the ES mounts bring the motor up.

Like in ur case traxion, do u think the mufflex y pipe would have installed a bit easier ith regulare rubber motor mounts then the ES ones? since the motor is sittin down the y pipe isnt raised up higher in to the tranny xmember.

also how long has it taken someone to install these with no a/c and no emmissions in the car that has the regulare motor mounts? becuz i think u wouldnt be there grindin awhole lot to make clearence for the headers with the stock mounts.

and would it be bad to run the open headers for like a day at the most? becuz i can barrow a lift for 1day on a sunday when the shop isnt open and i know the people there so i can use the lift but with maybe like 2-3 people helpin how long do u think it will take to just install the headers, starter, plugs, wires, lockin header bolts, and to check for clearence issues?

also what should i use on the slipfit primary tube? ive heard use the copper rvt stuff, ive heard u could use antisieze, and i heard of something else but forgot what it was.

okay i think im done thinkin. all this stuff was runnin thru my head and figured to ask it now before the day before the install.

Momar

I installed them with stock replacement rubber mounts. I didnt have any clearance problems, although it is pretty close to the A Arm mount. I installed them without any emissions other than egr and no AC. It only took us about a half hour but that was because we had the motor out and dropped it in between the headers.

As far as the y pipe I have mentioned a couple times that I believe that the poly mounts were part of the problem, but everyone just blows me off. Everyone that I have heard of that installed them said that it raised their motor at least an inch or more. I think that Phil87Iroc installed his mufflex y pipe without a problem. I think that he ground out some of the tranny crossmember to give him more clearance, but it fit without doing so. He has pics on his site if you search for his name on the boards.

As for the slip tube, I dont have anything on it. If it leaks I will probably go with some of the copper rtv.

As far as open headers, it will be loud, but I dont think it will do any damage(other than your hearing and possibly drawing some unwanted attention). If it were shorties it may be a different story.

Ben

TRAXION

Nope. If anything, the actual installation of the headers was easier because the motor mounts provided more clearance to slip the headers in from the bottom. Worn out motor mounts sag and make the engine sit closer to the k-member. Having ES mounts is not an issue. Brand New rubber mounts are the same height.

I addressed this in point 16 in my post. I can't stress enough that "The last thing you want is to get everything installed and then replace your motor mounts at a later date and realize there are interference problems." My bet is that Mufflex did not design this y-pipe on a car with new mounts. They probably designed this pipe on a car with failing mounts. From my experience the ES poly mounts are NOT significantly higher than brand new rubber mounts.

I only grinded in two places. One of the places did not even need grinding (see my original post). If you look at the pic of where it needed grinding then it becomes rather obvious that the mounts were not the problem. Look at the picture. In any case, I would set a whole day aside to install these headers. It can definitely be done in a day. If you want to take your time then set a weekend aside.

Running open headers is loud ... very very loud. If you are not worried about getting pulled over by the police then you don't need to worry about it. I already addressed the time issue above.

I guess you didn't read point #10

Tim

Timz2882

iTrader: (1)

sorry about #10 but ive heard differnt things to use like the rvt and antiseize. i was just askin basiclly, maybe i worded it wrong was which one would be better sealin? and do u put a crap load on the pipe or just enuff for a thin coat around the tube?

Ricktpi

I am using AFR 195 heads & the 2210 Hookers. I just went through removing the ES mounts & putting in brand new NAPA rubber mounts to try and get some more clearance & found the rubber ones let the engine sit .75" lower than the ES mounts did. I am having a real nasty time on the pass side. The #8 tube is jammed into the corner between the LCA bracket & the frame rail. So far I have ground & welded the crap out of the bracket & can't seem to get enough clearance. Hooker blames it on AFR moving the exhaust ports up & back ??

TRAXION

Rick,

Is your interference problem the same as is shown in this pic?
http://www.celligent.com/tim/iroc/ex...e/DCP_0690.JPG

Which version of the ES poly mounts did you use? Did you purchase them a long time ago or were they relatively new?

Tim

Momar

What is the difference out of curiosity?

Ben

Ricktpi

I wish I had as much clearance as you do in that pic. I put the ES mounts back in & returned the NAPA mounts. I've had the ES mounts about a year & a half with about 800 miles in that time. They are the ones that use the the stock clamshells. The #8 tube on mine is over about .75" towards the frame rail & back about .5" puting it right at the inner front corner of the LCA bracket. I cut & rewelded the bracket to give it more clearance. I have some pics yet to be developed & scanned. Today I used a porta power to push the header towards the engine more & now have about .35" clearance from the bracket. Hope it's enough. Also have some pics on how to shorten an Accel spark plug for more clearance. Now I'm working on fitting (more like rebuilding) my Mufflex y-pipe to fit around my Spohn track bar & drive shaft hoop.

TRAXION

You got me I was hoping to collect info to try to find out. I've heard that the first few runs of the ES mounts had fitment problems. I was curious if it might apply in this circumstance. In any case - I'm still 100% confused on this whole topic of ES mounts supposedly being substantially thicker than the NEW stock rubber mounts. Fact is - the ES mounts use the clamshell from the rubber mounts. So, that would prevent there being a difference in thickness. Maybe the difference (if there really is one) is due to deflection of the rubber mounts once the engine sits down on them? That's a tough one to push though because new rubber mounts don't deflect much at all.

Tim

Ricktpi

I believe they compress more when the engine weight is on them. When I compared the two side by side they had the same demensions.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

I have hooker LT on my car and some rigged dual exhaust, i havent even ran the mufflers back yet,. I think this was asked before, but doesnt anyone have a pic of how the mufflex y pipe hooks up to the cat back. I was thinking about putting single exhaust on my car with shorty's and lowering it. But I might not now. This is a good thread.

Momar

Timz2882

iTrader: (1)

Hey Momar (i know this is off topic) but what size alumin driveshaft is that? or was it a custom made one?