3.8TransAM

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=312159

I brought this post over here, since it doesnt seem to be getting any attention on the TPI board.

Besdies, some folks here have some very serious knowledge about our cars and I'm hoping that might lead to some new lite on factory tested stuff that never made the lite of day on our cars.

later
Jeremy

ershealy

Hmmm odd. Don't really know for sure, but the LT-1 intake looks a lot like a Ram Jet Intake, perhaps some type of Ram Jet Prototype?

As for the Prototype Olds TBI, I seem to remember that the GMC motorhomes of the late 70's had a Fuel Injected Olds 455. Even though the 455 was not available in any Olds car, the RVs did not have to meet the same emissions standards. If I remember correctly it was a pretty odd machine as it was FWD, TBI injected, with a 455. Not sure but it could have been the same running gear as the old Toranado (FWD with a 455).

I also seem to recall Cadillac having a TBI system in the 70's.

Food for thought.

Mark_ZZ3

I have not seen that intake you bought before. It does look like a GM intake as there is the snowflake on the from from the foundry where it was cast. I have only seen that on GM stuff before.

I know a bit about the 92 aniversary car. The runners were different, but the lower intake was the same. Although I have not seen pictures of the motor apart to confirm. I do know what happened to that prototype and where the engine went. Sad story, but GM had it destroyed. :-( I have been trying to get detailed pictures of the runners for a while ... hopefully patience will pay off.

Your intake is interesting. Might be worth a call to SLP and see if there is someone technical you can speak with about it. I know SLP did some work for GM and had access to aluminum casting ... but I don't know if the same snowflake mark will appear.

Get us some more pictures. It looks interesting.

Mark.

3.8TransAM

Woohoo.

I got pics of everything ,even the casting numbers and direct comparisons to stock runner and base(ported)

Pics wont be up until later or t'row, I have to figure out how to transfer and size them appropriately.

Asking official moderator permission to post over the 3 pic a post limit due to the fact this is a prototype intake and I have found some neat stuff on it.

Pics of:
The plenum is cast as it appears with the large openings not cut as I first thought!

Rear coolant passages in intake are used, water runs down the center and connects the front to the rear of intake!(not 100% sure, but they way the rear crossover passages curve it appears to be the case)

Is set up for vette style external egr or regular F body style egr.

Left and right runners are the same.

Only thing questionable as far as machine work and finishing goes compared to a stock intake is the runner end caps, where the bolt from inside the runners screws thru to the outside.

Rest is comparable to stock intake and runner for fit and finish. No porting appears done to it. Center bolt holes were modified, but it looks like this occured after it was made however.

Hopefully they let me post all the pics and maybe I can get some more answers about this thing.

If someone sees anything specific they need a photo of for ID or verification, please let me know if u know anything

thanks
Jeremy

TAdan

Just curious. How would an intake like this find its way out of GM?

Any theories or back story to it? I just think its pretty wild that something like this would get out.

Mark_ZZ3

I can't speak to that intake, but I can tell you the story of the 1992 anniversary car and the engine out of it.

As I know it, GM kept that car for many years after the 1992 year. It even appeared in some GM shows (I recall TRAXION had pictures of it). At some point, GM sent the car out to be crushed. The wrecked that did this had a contract to destroy the car, but to sell the parts. I have to assume that since the parts on the engine are not life/death parts such as brakes, it was OK to sell them. That car was cut into two, and the parts sold off. The engine was bought up with many other near-new engines. The company that bought it could sell the engine complete, or for parts or whatever. Hence, someone like one of us could end up with it.

I know in the Player's series, GM had some early 12" rotors and twin piston calipers (brembo) on the 1986-1987 cars. These brakes were suppose to be returned to GM and then destroyed. I guess you could argue as to what is or isn't a liability. I would expect GM to destroy any/all prototypes, but a few make it through the cracks.

I know of a 1985 IROC that GM used as the test mule for promoting the Player's series. The VIN number ends with "0000XX" ... hence test mule. The car should have been destroyed, but was sold through a dealer. The guy who has it, has a letter from GM that documents it as a test mule. To my knowledge, not much is rare on the car, as it was more a photo-op car.

Mark.

simo

In 1991, I saw the 1992 Test Mule at Jim McFarland of McFarland, Inc. in Torrance, CA. They were to be a limited run of 602 cars to represent the original 602 1967 Z-28's. But due to the costs, the bean counters ended the program prior to production. Also on the plate at that time they had a couple of LT1 and ZF 6-speeds, test mules. The CHP were given a small number of these cars with this combination getting ready, for the release of the 1993 Fourth Gen F-Body. So have any of these test mules made it into Joe Public hands ???? Food for thought.

Also around the shop were various LT5 Lotus - Mercury Marine Vette engines. Those were the days. I was allowed to visit the shop any time, just don't bring a camera when you come. Jim and his team were very friendly.

Mark_ZZ3

The white test mule (the one in the mags) was cut up about 2 years ago (I have pictures ... :-( )

Mark.

3.8TransAM

Pics are on my puter now, just have to figure out how to shrink them down to fit

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Here they are. I apologize for shape/size of some of them. New camera isnt as simple as it is supposed to be to use lol :-)

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Heres some comparisons to a ported stock TPI base that I did, and a set of stock runners:

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If there is any thing someone else wants/needs of it, let me know.

Looking for more information on this intake.

thanks
Jeremy

Mark_ZZ3

That certainly is neat. I would say it is a GM part. Quite strange that they would have gone to all the trouble to make this and for it not to have gone anywhere. I like the casting numbers that end in "A" and "AS". At least you can use these number to try and find out some history on these parts. Perhaps a good parts counter person will be able to give you some contacts within GM.

Perhaps try to send a few pictures to GM High Performance. Maybe they can find some contacts ... or even run a story on it.

If they are truely GM parts, then we need to know more! :-)

Mark.

3.8TransAM

I'm basically positive this is a GM intake.

Was hoping someone here could shed some lite on it for me or point me in the right direction of a contact before I go digging for people at SLP or GM and the like.

If anyone with any info or contacts sees this, please let me know.

thanks
Jeremy

83ho86tpi

Its too bad the casting #s are not like the #s on a rear axle, or a door sticker. You can at least determine it is 1986ish casting.
Helpfull things to know would be:

What production plants made intakes and plenums around 86?

What different casting #s are on the regular parts around 86 and where did they come from?

What were done with the castings after they were not in production anymore?


And it looks like the intake is taller than a production one, I would think that required a different or modified mold to get that casting done.

Did you say it had provisions for the F body EGR AND the VETTE style EGR? If it does I would think it is a super Mutt. It seems to me that GM prototypes tend to be made for a specific application, and aftermarket parts are designed for more universal use. Maybe this was an attempt to make a bigger aftermarket setup for TPI cars in general (F-body and or VETTE). It could have been made by GM or someone else who had use of the molds.

This 86 base and runners should have had stock provisions for a 9th cold start injector to get it to startup ok. (unless the setup included a modified chip for cold starts)
This missing 9th injector makes me believe that It could have been made for the later model TPI cars that came without the 9th injector. Therefore it would date the parts being made around 1989ish. It is possible that GM or a aftermarket company modified the old unused 86 intake molds that were not in production anymore.

Just my .02$

Interesting stuff!

3.8TransAM

Well I have done some poking around, nothing I can back up.

I have no way of contacting anyone at GM per se and was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this or maybe if someone new will see the post and help me out.

Just looking for some history on this piece

later
Jeremy

okfoz

I know that I have experimental runners on my 87... It was from a local company (I think Paragon) who back in the 80's was developing larger aftermarket runners for the Corvette. There about 1/8" larger dia, and they do not have the EGR tube or the cold start tube, but a place to put in the cold start injector. I think they are actually the same length as the stock tubes...

You have to think of the Runners as a musical instrument...

One of the reasons why our runners work the way they do is they create a harmonic and they like to resonate at a certain frequency. If you shorten the tube the harmonic frequencies go up, lenghen the tube and it goes down. If you make the tube larger you lower the frequency and if you make the tube smaller you raise the frequency. If you notice, many of the aftermarket larger diameter tubes are also shorter in length so somewhat compensate for a stock chip.

With that said a larger but shorter tube should resonate at the same frequency as the stock tube, but allow more air flow because of the extra volume.

Also consider that a conical (CONE) shape will alow twice the harmonic frequencies to resonate as a tubular shape, and that is exactly how your stock base plate is shaped. If you notice the ports that connect to the heads are larger in area than the round ports on the runner side. THis allows more resonating frequencies to be presant, and not have dead spots in the power curve.

What you have pictures of is an oval shaped tube. Although your allowing more volume, your harmonic overtones may become whacky at some RPM ranges because what you may create is a dual harmonic, at some RPM's it will work fine, but at other RPM's the harmonics may be dissonant enough and conflict with each other to not make it run worth a crap.

If you notice, and IIRC there are no aftermarket runners that are oval shaped, they are pretty much all round.

Its just a thought I had... unfortuantely the only way to really find out is to put it on an engine and see what happens.

Good luck

John

okfoz

BTW, 8DE86 on the one part might mean December 8th, 1986...

What it might be is the prototype for the 89 model, I do not see a cold start injector port in the pix. And the date would be about right, 2 or 3 years from the production release.

John

mikesz1984

could that be an intake off of a 1986 corvette? There was a tpi intake that was only available on 1986 vettes. It had both egr provisions because they had both cast and aluminum heads.

(tpi swappers guide page 20)

3.8TransAM

Bringing it back from the dead.

I'm trying to see if I can get any info from the guy who is selling this on ebay's friend, since he's an insider.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=349053

I'm trying not to bid on it lol

later
Jeremy

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Have you thought about submitting this to High Performance Pontiac? They have a "The X Project" or something like that where they research the history of one-off (or nearly) protype items and stuff like that. Bunch of stuff on the concept Fiero for 90, but they've done smaller articles on other things... they might be interested in doing a lot of the footwork for you Plus, they have GM contacts.

3.8TransAM

lol

U know I really should hit them up and GMHTTP.

The bozo from the ebay link with the vortec marine/factory poppet replacement setup is flip flopping his stories now anyhow. His friend worked at GM and now works at Bosch since someone told him more info lol

I completely forgot about the Pontiac High Performance X-series. Its usually one of the best reads in the mag for all the never made stuff u get to soo.

I'll try emailing them and seeing what we can do

later
Jeremy

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Yeah, that is almost always one of the first things I read, expecially when it was all about the Fiero, that concept was really cool.

manalive67

I was just curious if in the pics of the WHITE 92 test mule if the car was still white if so then i dont think its the same car.

Mark_ZZ3

The white magazine car was always white until the day it was cut up. The other test mule was used for other things ... recall a yellow version with a ramjet in it.

Mark.

Sleeper_Z

iTrader: (1)

double post

Sleeper_Z

iTrader: (1)

http://ncarboni.home.att.net/NCtpi.html

There is a link I found. I seen that intake on a "How to modify GM fuel injected engines" book in the early 90s as well. Im not sure if anyone else has ran across it yet. Just thought Id add my $.02

Jeremy

3.8TransAM

No its not my intake.

Mine has GM casting and part numbers on it.

the article your referring to was from back in the day and utilizes the FIRST intake setup as is mentioned and I belive the article is also linked thru FIRST's site.

later
Jeremy

Sleeper_Z

iTrader: (1)

OH dang! I guess I should have looked alittle closer. I thought you had one of the GM pre-LT1 style intakes with the t-stat housing and distib hole for some reason. I thought those were pics of the FIRST intake :S FIRST must have used that GM intake as a guide for theres maybe. That intake also could have been ment for the 92 heritage edition RS possibly. From what Ive read about them it says they were supposed to have a highly moddified TPI intake. But who knows. Im sure you guys have researched it alot more in depth than I have.

Jeremy

Sleeper_Z

iTrader: (1)

And when I said "92 heritage edition RS" I mean the Firehawk "like" Heritage Collectors editon RS with the ZF 6-speed and all.

Jeremy

Sleeper_Z

iTrader: (1)

The 92 Heritage collectors edition engine. I know the runners are different but its possible that they changed a few things in the process.

Mark_ZZ3

That engine in the picture ended up going out of country in a crate when the car was torn down. I've tried - unsuccessfully - to buy the runners off it. I was actually trying to just get pictures of the thing, inside and out. But no luck on that front either.

Mark.

Sleeper_Z

iTrader: (1)

Wow thats a shame. I was under the impression that, that car was still together from the info and pics on camarosource.com

http://www.camarosource.ca/main_new_..._ed_camaro.htm

and from the GM high tech performance issure from last year

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...mhtp_heritage/

Id really like to see what they did to that intake also. Id assume they did more than just open up the stock plenum for those massive runners.

Jeremy

Mark_ZZ3

Yup, darn shame. They cut the car into two parts. Sold the drivetrain. Sold the suspension. I'm sure some of the car is still intact.

But how long can GM keep it, I guess. They can't sell it.

I'll have to try and follow up on that intake again.

Mark.

3.8TransAM

U know whats funny as all heck.

Look really carefully at the runners on the never built anniversary car in GMHTP, they are backwards.

U can see the slope on the rear of the driver side and the flat spot sticking out on the pass front lol

I seen that pic like a milion times and just noticed it the other nite.

later
Jeremy

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I saw that to... just thought my eyes were playn tricks on me

1992rs/ss

they really cut that car up? that makes me sad, honestly. it belonged in a museum or with someone that would have kept it nice. being a GM fan is such a difficult thing. they will do something great, and then turn around and kick us in the nuts.