ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
#101
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Car: 89 RS 89 iroc 87 firebird
Engine: 3.1 Turbo/ 355 twin turbo
Transmission: a4 w/ 4500 stall/ a4 / t5
Axle/Gears: strange s60 /w 3:42's
Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
if they are curved away from the head in the center do this
get another cyl head or steel blate u can drill the bolt pattern into
put in the end bolts with a stack of wachers about 1/4 inch high under the header flanges so the ends dont touch the head/ steel plate , then start the middle bolts and tighten them as much as u can without breaking them, then heat the header with a torch and tighten them down some more then let it cool and sit for a few hours.( heat the primarys not the header flange)
after that unbolt them and see if the curve is gone , if not repeat the process untill its gone or close to flat
the other option is to cut the flanges on both sides of the center ex ports , but be ware the front and rear primarys may move around when u cut them , but after u get them bolted up and heat cycled a few times they will stay put
get another cyl head or steel blate u can drill the bolt pattern into
put in the end bolts with a stack of wachers about 1/4 inch high under the header flanges so the ends dont touch the head/ steel plate , then start the middle bolts and tighten them as much as u can without breaking them, then heat the header with a torch and tighten them down some more then let it cool and sit for a few hours.( heat the primarys not the header flange)
after that unbolt them and see if the curve is gone , if not repeat the process untill its gone or close to flat
the other option is to cut the flanges on both sides of the center ex ports , but be ware the front and rear primarys may move around when u cut them , but after u get them bolted up and heat cycled a few times they will stay put
#102
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
Sounds like they were welded improperly? What surface were they bolted to during welding?
The SSAC headers I have seen have this problem also. So warped that you can't just surface them. You can use a press and fixture to straighten them and then machine.
Trying to get away with a high dollar gasket to fix the problem is a crutch and you will be buying and installing gaskets often. Best bet is to use a press to fix and then surface. Much cheaper and easier in the long run. With that much time and money into a set of manifolds then you might as well finish the job and do it right. Just a opinion, choice is yours.
The SSAC headers I have seen have this problem also. So warped that you can't just surface them. You can use a press and fixture to straighten them and then machine.
Trying to get away with a high dollar gasket to fix the problem is a crutch and you will be buying and installing gaskets often. Best bet is to use a press to fix and then surface. Much cheaper and easier in the long run. With that much time and money into a set of manifolds then you might as well finish the job and do it right. Just a opinion, choice is yours.
#103
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
hard to avoid warping when welding like that, even when bolted to a fixture. i would bolt them to something with washers like project89 said and straighten them up. then take them to a machine shop and have them surfaced to make them perfect. i believe that is how most headers are done.
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
Yep that's what I had to do to one of my headers as well. Borrowed a junk sbc head and did the same thing with washers and a propane weed burner. I then welded a bead around the ports and then sanded them flat with a bench sander. So you end up with raised lips around the ports which aids in sealing, much like a lot of manufactured headers have.
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
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Sorry to hear your gaskets didn't make it. I have only ever ordered directly from the Remflex website or by calling them direct. I had a good experience both times. I can't say how Amazon deals with their products though. I'm sick of my project too. Popped a head gasket this summer at the track. Tore it down, put in MLS head gaskets and head studs and have had coolant leaking from the head studs ever since. I've slowly been working on re sealing the studs trying a different sealant but the motivation to re do what I JUST did is pretty lacking plus the weather is getting pretty cold up here in Maine. Just gotta keep on keeping on I guess and we'll get there eventually. Keep up the good work!!
-Paul
-Paul
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
Awe man! I was wondering why I haven't seen any updates in your thread in a while Paul! That really blows about the studs. What do you think made the gasket blow? Too much boost or something else. I'm pretty sure I am in mid process of breaking the t5 that's in the car now. I'm getting horrible vibrations in only first gear and pinion noise in the other gears. Do you store yours for the winter? I'm not sure if you use salt in Maine, we do here in ohio :/
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I don't want to hijack so I'll try to be brief. Head gasket went due to 20psi + standard 1003 FelPro head gasket + head bolts, not studs. I did beat an LS1 on a 100 shot of nitrous on that run though lol. Think it was my highest trap speed so far too..around 95 mph in the 1/8 mile. I do "store" my car in the winter, roads get nasty here too! She's just in my garage though so if the roads clear up and I need to scratch the itch I can take her out for a beating! Finished resealing the head studs tonight with Permatex #2 instead of the junk ARP Teflon sealant. It's cold now though so I'm going to let it sit a while before I put coolant in it and pressure test it.
-Paul
-Paul
#109
Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
Sorry to be off topic but im new. Where do I post questions about my berlinetta if I need basic answers. I dont really know anything about my car. Im switching from hondas lol
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
Maybe time to invest in a bridgeport end mill. You do nice work and I think you would catch on quick operating it. With it, you could slot the holes for the head bolts and surface mill the flange after straightening it.
The headers look great. I think it will be much closer to the numbers you want. If you swap out that TPI later it will exceed your goal.
The headers look great. I think it will be much closer to the numbers you want. If you swap out that TPI later it will exceed your goal.
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#114
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Car: 1992 Firebird
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Transmission: '93 T-56
Axle/Gears: 3.27 9 bolt posi with PBR discs
Glad you're getting to beat on her again!! So, did the Remflex gaskets seal up all right for you?
I'm interested in your coolant temp observation. I am always looking for ways to get my car running cooler. Although, with the Firebird my main problem is getting air TO the radiator lol! If you're getting the hot exhaust out of the engine/engine bay more efficiently it makes sense that it would help keep coolant temps down too.
-Paul
I'm interested in your coolant temp observation. I am always looking for ways to get my car running cooler. Although, with the Firebird my main problem is getting air TO the radiator lol! If you're getting the hot exhaust out of the engine/engine bay more efficiently it makes sense that it would help keep coolant temps down too.
-Paul
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Car: 89 RS 89 iroc 87 firebird
Engine: 3.1 Turbo/ 355 twin turbo
Transmission: a4 w/ 4500 stall/ a4 / t5
Axle/Gears: strange s60 /w 3:42's
Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
why are u running it so rich?
run that thing at like 12.0-12.5 and i bet u it picks up a bunch of power
i run all my turbo stuff at 12.5 afr
if u do lean it out it might be wise to back the timing off 1-2* first and then once u get it in the low 12 afrs go back and readjust the timing.
how much total timing r u running under boost anyway
run that thing at like 12.0-12.5 and i bet u it picks up a bunch of power
i run all my turbo stuff at 12.5 afr
if u do lean it out it might be wise to back the timing off 1-2* first and then once u get it in the low 12 afrs go back and readjust the timing.
how much total timing r u running under boost anyway
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#120
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
For what it's worth (maybe nothing) mine at 10psi with anything more than 24 degrees timing and it starts detonating if the AFR's get leaner than around 11.9. I'm lucky to have quiet exhaust or I wouldn't have a clue it was detonating. I'm running 9.1:1 compression with iron vortec heads.
12.5 AFR under boost? Dang, you are gutsy. That's a mixture range I try to avoid at all costs under WOT. It's crazy how much timing helps make power under boost. With my setup a little more timing and richer AFR to keep detonation away is faster than less timing and a little leaner.
12.5 AFR under boost? Dang, you are gutsy. That's a mixture range I try to avoid at all costs under WOT. It's crazy how much timing helps make power under boost. With my setup a little more timing and richer AFR to keep detonation away is faster than less timing and a little leaner.
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#122
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Car: 89 RS 89 iroc 87 firebird
Engine: 3.1 Turbo/ 355 twin turbo
Transmission: a4 w/ 4500 stall/ a4 / t5
Axle/Gears: strange s60 /w 3:42's
Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
i dont recall have u maxed out the latency setting in the ms ecu yet to try to correct the timing error ?
u know u may just have to take it to the track and see what it runs, sometimes the ole buttdyno isnt as accurate as we like to think it is
when i first put the v6 together in my car the buttdyno said it was a mid 13 second car , took it to the track and it ran mid 12's
u know u may just have to take it to the track and see what it runs, sometimes the ole buttdyno isnt as accurate as we like to think it is
when i first put the v6 together in my car the buttdyno said it was a mid 13 second car , took it to the track and it ran mid 12's
#123
Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
With project on this one. Track it, and also see what the timing does. Even though you have a T&T spot I could believe the power to be more subtle than you think especially trying to judge a car you haven't driven in some time.. I'd be totally shocked if you were running optimal timing going from the restrictive log to the free flowing header especially if the engine's holding a lower temperature now. If you dropped 20 degrees after a pass temperature wise then you were definitely being held back somewhere.
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
Originally Posted by ZZ3Astro
I made a nice long drive today around town... blew another $140 between a battery and a spanner wrench for it. Verdict is I'm not very impressed. We brought the boost to the mid 12's. Fueling is almost dead on from the old tune (not a good sign), just a few clicks lean...
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#126
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
What size TB do you have? If it's still stock size you may want to go to a 58mm. Just a thought? I was just looking at TurboedTPI's set up in GMHTP http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...0/viewall.html and he has a 58mm. I also noticed your set up is real close to his, but your new headers should flow better than his and he has a 4 core IC. What size is yours? Just a thought!
#127
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#128
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
Good to hear things are working out man.
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
Using only fuel as a power indicator is only accurate if the timing is right. I would disregard that info until you get it tuned for the new headers. You could run X amount of fuel and then run 0 degree timing up to 30 timing and output HP would change even though fuel was kept constant and varied AFR.
It seems you understand this because you have realized you have gained a lot of power recovered from pumping losses (lower temps). Now that the charge contains less spent air, you have more O2 avail to make more power. Along with that the temps are lower and allow more timing for more power.
All that work is a step in the right direction and it looks great. Only thing holding it back now is that TPI and I know you like it. It is a trade off, but I think an SR or single plane would really wake it up now.
It seems you understand this because you have realized you have gained a lot of power recovered from pumping losses (lower temps). Now that the charge contains less spent air, you have more O2 avail to make more power. Along with that the temps are lower and allow more timing for more power.
All that work is a step in the right direction and it looks great. Only thing holding it back now is that TPI and I know you like it. It is a trade off, but I think an SR or single plane would really wake it up now.
#133
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
My car is more boost sensitive, low sub 12 lbs it doesnt feel fast.. 500-620 whp. But first and second are still very strong. First used to hook warm roads. second for sure. Once you get around 14-15 things start to heat up. 700's hp. Second gear becomes useless and first has been out the picture along time ago. So you know you got power. 18+ psi is time travel fast, but 3rd gear still hooks from 60 mph. My motor is low comp low dyn comp and probably not the best ring seal lol
Some motors need boost. Some like gear load. Mine likes rpm and spools slower so more gear helps alot more
Some motors need boost. Some like gear load. Mine likes rpm and spools slower so more gear helps alot more
#134
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
What size TB do you have? If it's still stock size you may want to go to a 58mm. Just a thought? I was just looking at TurboedTPI's set up in GMHTP http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...0/viewall.html and he has a 58mm. I also noticed your set up is real close to his, but your new headers should flow better than his and he has a 4 core IC. What size is yours? Just a thought!
#135
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
Originally Posted by junkcltr
Using only fuel as a power indicator is only accurate if the timing is right. I would disregard that info until you get it tuned for the new headers...
All that work is a step in the right direction...
All that work is a step in the right direction...
#136
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
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#137
Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
.... you might want to stick to $2.00 ECM's and elusive turbo builds that always seem to come up short with each and every post you write as opposed to sharing nonsensical claims with someone like Steve who I'm sure had his timing very close to where it needed to be. To imply that a set of headers would make that much of a difference with the very same setup, with the same amount of boost, is laughable. Guess we'll chalk that up with your exhaust backpressure and spring theory that even the Turbo Buick guys got a laugh out of awhile back. By the way, telling someone he is taking a step in the right direction who more than likely is running faster than you already is even more laughable lol.
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
I have removed the passenger side header and there were two leaks spotted. One at the 2 o'clock position of #8 and the other at 9 o'clock on #6. The remflex gasket set arrived yesterday so I will install that side later today. I also have a new pulley for my power steering pump so I can finally work on getting that back on. The pulley my friend got is .5" smaller diameter but was the only one he could find. I can't wait to roll up to the import meet next week (well 80% imports) and tell them my car is so fast that I had to run OVERDRIVE pulleys on the accessories!
There is a cruise-in this Saturday about 60 miles away, so I'm hoping to make that as the first shakedown run.. also it will be interesting to see how people react to the new design. Of course that is assuming the car makes it there!
There is a cruise-in this Saturday about 60 miles away, so I'm hoping to make that as the first shakedown run.. also it will be interesting to see how people react to the new design. Of course that is assuming the car makes it there!
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
Originally Posted by Drac0nic
Says the king of all hype vaporware builds that get deleted when it is time to put results up...
#140
Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
What the heck are you talking about lmao? You must be stuck in that same time warp as junkbox thinking I still have the White '84 Anniversary Trans Am turbo build that got sold years ago. Unfortunately that's what happens when you don't comprehend what you are reading. Incidently, at least I take the time and contribute to this forum and post up an actual build thread for people to follow along. How long is it taking you for yours? What are your results? Oh wait, its been years and you still didn't start one. Must be still looking for that right set of exhaust manifolds, I mean they are so hard to find ;rolleyes:. Do you even have a turbo build, or do enjoy tagging along others'? I'd suggest, meh nevermind lol...
#141
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
I should mention with the megasquirt I get an exponential timing error as rpm increases. So 24 could be 22 depending on rpm. I keep it conservative and try not to reach detonation but I did a while back trying to find the missing power... so I know I'm close to the max. Quiet exhaust definitely helps. Speaking of exhaust, I'm also going to try open downpipe this week. In the past this hasn't helped, but maybe with the old log restriction, now the weak link is the catback.
Does the MS ECM have this table and is it filled out properly?
#142
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Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
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#143
Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
I forget if we talked about HEI ignitor/module latency in another thread regarding the MS ECM. The stock GM ECMs have a table to correct for the HEI Module latency. The DIY PROM board should have the latencies for the GM HEI modules by part number.
Does the MS ECM have this table and is it filled out properly?
Does the MS ECM have this table and is it filled out properly?
By the way in "more ignition options" what prediction algorithm are you using? it may be worth it for you to examine it and try to change it especially if it's set to "none."
#144
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#145
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What are you running for a fuel pump? I ran into a similar afr issue on the dyno with my car. No matter how much pulse width I added I could not get it to richen up under higher boost. Put a fuel pressure gauge on it and found that under moderate to higher boost fuel pressure was dropping from 40ish psi to 14 psi! The Walbro 255 in the tank was either weak or not up to the task. I dropped in a Walbro 400lph e85 compatible pump and my fueling issues were cured. I would definitely verify your fuel pressure/volume before you tear you hair out too much more. Could even be a plugged fuel filter...
With all the progress you've made I'm sure you can sort out this glitch!!
-Paul
With all the progress you've made I'm sure you can sort out this glitch!!
-Paul
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Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Panama City FL
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Car: 87 Iroc
Engine: Turbocharged 5.7 Pro-Fl-XT
Transmission: 700R4 for moment
Axle/Gears: 3.25 9 inch
Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
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Last edited by ZZ3Astro; 09-23-2015 at 10:53 AM.
#147
Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
Glad to hear you're finding power in the timing. I think you have a ways to go quite frankly. Good luck getting the fueling sorted out. You may even be able to find some MPG, spool time and driveability in there with timing too. Eagerly awaiting this car hitting the rollers or the track.
Sucks you may have to drop the tank again but at the same time look on the plus side you figured out why the car wasn't going lean like you thought it should with the old map. It's just like a computer, you're eliminating variables and it's showing results.
I dunno, find someone you can steal the -8 lines off their car, or yank the hood, stick a cell in the passenger seat and see if it goes away. Worse comes to worse and stick in the trunk, run the lines up front and make it look like the time machine.
Another thought for you, how easy is the wiring to access close up to the pump? Just saying it may be a good idea to hook a meter of some kind up and run it to the front and see if the voltage to the pump is dropping somewhere checkable. Yeah I know it sounds sort of out there, but it could be something like that. Have you tried bypassing the relay as well? After a few good runs, I'd go to the back where you have it, feel around on it and see if anything is hot. If so you may have a resistance point that's dropping voltage under load.
Sucks you may have to drop the tank again but at the same time look on the plus side you figured out why the car wasn't going lean like you thought it should with the old map. It's just like a computer, you're eliminating variables and it's showing results.
I dunno, find someone you can steal the -8 lines off their car, or yank the hood, stick a cell in the passenger seat and see if it goes away. Worse comes to worse and stick in the trunk, run the lines up front and make it look like the time machine.
Another thought for you, how easy is the wiring to access close up to the pump? Just saying it may be a good idea to hook a meter of some kind up and run it to the front and see if the voltage to the pump is dropping somewhere checkable. Yeah I know it sounds sort of out there, but it could be something like that. Have you tried bypassing the relay as well? After a few good runs, I'd go to the back where you have it, feel around on it and see if anything is hot. If so you may have a resistance point that's dropping voltage under load.
#148
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Panama City FL
Posts: 1,771
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
Car: 87 Iroc
Engine: Turbocharged 5.7 Pro-Fl-XT
Transmission: 700R4 for moment
Axle/Gears: 3.25 9 inch
Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
gone
Last edited by ZZ3Astro; 09-23-2015 at 10:53 AM.
#150
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Panama City FL
Posts: 1,771
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
Car: 87 Iroc
Engine: Turbocharged 5.7 Pro-Fl-XT
Transmission: 700R4 for moment
Axle/Gears: 3.25 9 inch
Re: ZZ3 Turbo Iroc - Round Three
gone
Last edited by ZZ3Astro; 09-23-2015 at 10:53 AM.