Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Meh i got to 700 whp and was 84% at a slightly richer than ideal mix on pump. With siemens 80's. 1200 is like 900-1000whp, and that reliably needs closer to 100lbs give or take. To leave room. Dont like running 100% dc. I was at around 110 lbs and 75% dc i think at 1009 whp sae

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Motors vary depending how efficient

I'm using wheel hp and relating back to crank because thats all i can measure. I was 79% dc at 640 whp on my 9.86 at 141 run on my old turbo setup. That was 11.2 air fuel and 80lb siemens.
Thats about 0.63 bsfc but it was richer than ideal. I wanted 11.6-11.7 air fuel but got 11.2-11.3

My last build estimated at 1450 flywheel maxed out 127 lb inj at 46 psi base pressure which makes them closer to 113 lb.
96% dc, puts bsfc at 0.60 on 110 gas which has a leaner stoich than pump

Generally .6 is fine. But you want dc around 80 so you can have margin for overboost protection and failsafes

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

New tech of these injectors work extremely well. 200-220 lb stuff is working well now, high z.

Staged injectors isnt easy to do. Gotta fab up an intake that has room for dual rails or 2 inj per runner and then an advanced efi system required. However over 1000 hp you kinda need decent efi system anyway

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

What's the open time on those injectors?

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I have no idea lol

Siemens 227 lb low z is 1.5/1.3 ms open /close time

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm talking about the ones you are running, not the new ones coming to market. What are your offsets in your tune?

I think the 60s will be enough for my build, should support quite a bit more HP than I plan on making on a 2bolt 400 block.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I have no idea what the specs are on the injectors. The data i used in the voltage offsets was manually fudged based on other inj data and real testing at lower bat voltages

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Fic bosch 127
https://fuelinjectorconnection.com/p...high-impedance

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Since the staged is turned on at high HP/RPM. Whay not make a spacer plate with 4 or 8 injectors in it. Would only be 3/4" to 1" thick. It would give thermal cooling effect also. Turn on via ECM or old mechanical hobbs junk.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

What confuses some of the GM thirdgen guys in terms of injector firing strategies is the ECM used. A GM 730 does single fire mode with the single injector driver it contains. It sprays all 8 injectors every 2 crank revs. Using this mode the end user will find the engine idles rougher and they decide this mode sucks. They associate this with alternating bank fire which it is not. Using the 749 or 427 ECM allows alternating bank fire scheme which is much much better.

Alternating bank fire starts spraying 4 injectors every crank rev which gives a smooth idle and has a "cycle/spray time" of 2 crank revs.

Open/close time is ECM dependent. If an ECM applies a larger voltage with less resistance then they can turn on faster. If the ECM does a short to ground at turn off with 0 resistance they will turn off faster than something with 100 ohms resistance. Most people don't understand that the ECM hardware dictates turn on/off times. The injector manufacturer should post the inductance and resistance of the winding, not turn on/off times. People mis use this in setting up the tune and correct for the error they induced with messing with the VE or load tables.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I have run the 80's and 127's (i think) on code $59 with 730 ecm and worked fine for me. I do think the sequential is alittle bit smoother running but then again, i spent more time on the tune for drivability than when i had 730 ecm with the 127's. I have to check notes to see when i made the change. That system was only running for a few months before i had the heads redone and moved to shaft rockers and 411 pcm

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Could you post the wideband AFR reading at idle? I bet it wasn't higher than 9 AFR.

Even with a huge over lap cam and high cube sbc the math says it was a "bad configuration, but yeah it would run at idle for short bursts. Run the numbers for the amount HP you were spraying fuel for at idle with 127 injectors. Does that HP number at idle make sense?

Yes, you could sneak by with the 80 injectors with a rough idle.

There was a reason you dumped that 730 ECM for the 411 PCM. We both know a 106mm turbo can be installed on a GEO 3 cylinder but is a "bad configuration".

EDIT: mute point on asking for AFR with 127 injectors. Large over lap cam will pump O2 into the exhaust at idle so it will false read on the lean side. So the real rich AFR will report on the WBO2 as leaner. Yeah, it will run with 127 injectors, but the quality is in question.

project89

iTrader: (1)

dead time on my injectors is .85-.9ms, they are also peak and hold injectors. i.e ecm applies full voltage to snap them open , and then uses pwm to use like 6 volts to keep them held open

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I didnt tune to a specific air fuel at idle because of the cam, it shows leaner than actual. I check vacuum and plugs for that and it was fine even with cold plugs. Never fouled

I have plenty of vids of the car running those injectors. It may seem they are large and would not run idle well, but they do.

I know guys running these on 4 bangers

The 411 was to gain better fuel control and ease of tuning. I was having problems with getting chips to burn cleanly and had a ecm issue where sometimes a hard bump would shut car off lol 411 did seem to improve tuning ease and did seem to offer good driving tuneability but i had no complaints when car was 730

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That is something i didnt factor in and likely true. I'm sure resulting base pulsewidth shown in the logs for 730 and 165 ecms does not subtract that, resulting in higher dc and also forces bsfc higher than actual when doing the injector sizing estimates online

project89

iTrader: (1)

my pull and save backup engine lmao



and what has been my own hell the last few days ( gm 2.4 twin cam engine ) had to rop the cradle out of an alero , so i could get the trans for another alero , and the head off the motor for a gran prix , really shitty job

project89

iTrader: (1)

pumpgas 91 to vp 114 = 2.5 point drop in afr ????


just went out to play with the car and after putting in some vp 114 now the car is running pig rich? nothing has changed except that its 65* outside instead of 95-105*

i need to go out and pick up my laptop from the shop so i cant really see whats going on witht he sensors atm


is it even possible for vp114 to make the car run that much richer ?
im thinking maybe my ait sensor went out and its just adding extra fueling

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Project

Yes it is very possible

My pump gas tune required alot more fuel than my vp 110 tune

Different fuel properties and different stoichs

project89

iTrader: (1)

thanks i didnt think it would make that huge of a difference but last time i ran it it was a mix of vp and pump gas, musta had more pump gas in the tank then i thought i did

i never grabbed my laptop just didnt have the time maybe ill get to it today on sunday

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Are you doing side work, or is it for another car(s) that you own...?

Bring her to the dyno Dave, throw down some numbers...

project89

iTrader: (1)

job for a buddy , and as soon as this one is done i have to do bassically the same thing in another car to swap transmissions , i hate fwd crap

dyno is planned but im still trying to save up to grab that ms2 setup from joe first , i do not trust my ecm so i want to replace it before i really start beating on the car

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

What is Joe running then, MS3 or Microsquirt? This is why I always hesitated with MegaSquirt, and why after all these years I still prefer the GM stuff over anything else. Features never really sold me, I just wanted reliability. Am still new to the whole W-Body thing, but already I now see that GM used the exact same PCM to control my L27 that they did with the L67, just different MAF and larger injectors. Talk about a breeze to make my Regal boosted. Was actually going to go Megasquirt with it, but she's only going to see 350 horsepower, if even that, so the stock PCM is staying. I want the engine to last for the next guy, so I am not going to jeopardize anything. This car actually came with an AC delete pulley for the series 1 3800, so much room down there, I'm thinking a turbo setup similar to the 4G63 with the turbo flange on the bottom. Still considering the supercharger from a '95 Riviera option, but I am not sure on the pulleys, plus the turbo would be easier believe it or not. Almost got my hands on an SL2 Saturn because of you the other day lol, I have since heard crazy things about that engine...

Anyways any idea on when your getting that MS2 from Joe...?

86CamaroDan

Though i wont deny that a fully engineered system is gonna be reliable, I will say that my MS2 has failed me on very few occasions. Once from my own fault (kicking the coil wire out of the fuse panel) and once when the shielded wire i ran to the ICM broke. Both of which i dont even really consider a fault of the ECM at that. Dispite the tune, its allways ran - And thats comming from someone who drives it daily through 3 seasons a year.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You arent the only one who has had failures. Lol

project89

iTrader: (1)

i wouldnt say im having a failure , i would just say that the used self built unit i bought was a pile of **** when i got it , it was missing key compnents and stuff

even though its running good now i dont trust the unit , never buy a used unit unless u know the person selling it.im going to put the unit in my car now on my turbocharged lsr bike , as the carb on it just isnt working out well , i can only get the thing to go wot , it wont idle or run part throttle worth a damn witht he carb on it

only reason im buying the unit from joe is 1 i trust him , bought my ultrabell/transcase and transbrake vb from him, #2 the unit he has is one of the smd units not one u assemble yourself


should hopefully be picking that unit up next week sometime , finally got caught up on bills

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I appreciate the kind words, but just to be fair I didn't run this unit. I took it in trade from badass355ciz28. I gave a 355 block I had done up at the machine shop, and a box of new parts. It was going to go in one of my vettes but the frame is rotted. He switched to a Holley.

I was thinking about doing a MS3 upgrade on it since it's a 3.57 board and just hold onto it for a future LSx project before you said you needed it.

With that said the more I interact with people on the forums about tuning, the more I realize why people have issues with the MS stuff. Even with my IAC problem I had the other day (which was a wiring issue), when I ask direct questions on the forums very few people actually knew the answers. When trying to compare IAC settings with a stock bin in tunercat it's absolutely impossible because the stock code doesn't have even 10% of the IAC options, so between not knowing what values to use, and screwing the pooch on the wiring it's quite easy to screw it up.

The GM stuff "just works" because it's already programmed to work for these engines, these sensors, these wiring harnesses.

When I changed the IAC I swapped two wires and it totally ruined my day.

And for a little while even I was about to blame MS code or Tunerstudio, when it was just an idiot wiring it. MS is not for idiots.


-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Which is a good thing...

project89

iTrader: (1)

lol idiots get it right on the first try too , my very very first ms install and tunning took 1 try to wire and 3 hours to tune

street helped me with it and can vouch for that , i was a total noob to wiring back then and i didnt screw a darn thing up

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I think that the whole system could be a lot easier with some design changes, but really the biggest hurdle is a starter tune that is application specific.

Guys who use stock or EBL, like 90% of the tune is done for them by GM. All they really need to do is set the injector constant, adjust the ve and spark tables and maybe a few constants here and there for fine tuning.

On the MS you literally have to make sure every single feature is configured properly for the sensors and engine you are using.

I asked Matt Cramer once about 4 years ago if he was interested in doing a PNP unit for TPI/TBI cars using the Delphi 56 connector (like I did mine) and he said there was zero demand for it and it wasn't worth the R&D time.. That's too bad.

There is no question using the MS makes you smarter and more aware of every component of your system.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

pt 80 or pt 7675 ????

i think thats the route im going this winter

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Running a Megasquirt doesn't make you a better tuner, from my experience with them it just makes you that much more aware of the hardware involved, and how it all works in conjunction with one another. You're not just fine tuning a vehicle with Megasquirt, you're essentially creating your own operating system in a sense, which really isn't for everyone.

As a project, sure, Megasquirt can be quite the learning experience, and although I give Junkcltr a hard time every now and then, fact is when I read what he says about the system it makes perfect sense, as he has taken the time to seriously delve into it and figure it all out. Most guys just want to turn the key and go have fun on a Friday or Saturday night though, pick up their girlfriends, go race, or go hang out with their friends and not have to worry if the engine will start or not. Most care little with how it all works, they just want it to work. The GM "stuff" works though, and you will rarely, if ever, see someone buy a new GM and pull the PCM out in favor for something else, it is unheard of, and that is because the new GM systems are superior...

7675 ftw...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Ysi.

-- Joe

86CamaroDan

LMAO. Literally, just laughed aloud. hahaha

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Tunerpro is awesome. I like it more than hptuners ls1 stuff

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

And that my friend is why its so recommended by alot of ppl on here

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Totally your opinion lol I'll never see quite eye to eye with you on that

project89

iTrader: (1)

i think its going to be the pt80 as i can get them stupid cheap

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

A real pt80 or a china knockoff?

Opposed to running a borg?

project89

iTrader: (1)

real pt80 , im not opposed to the bw but a billet wheel s480 is exspensive compared to the pt80

theres also another option, theres some companys out there doing really interesting holset hybrid turbos which are priced relatively well

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Where you find a pt80 for much less than a borg billet 80? Thought they were near same if not more for the precision

A cast bw s480 will do near 1000whp on a 350

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Either one will pretty much get you where you wanna go bro...

On a side note, go to get the Regal inspected and they told me no longer needed, not even a visual is needed, no sticker in the window whatsoever needed anymore from '95 down lol. Heh, now I'm looking at the GTA and thinking "hmm, a 454 BBC would fit nice in there" lol, but I'm sticking with the 305... for now.

project89

iTrader: (1)

got tierd of the paint company waiting to get back to me so i took matters into my own hands , so far the results look positive

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

The DIY Auto Tune sticker on the glass?











































paint looks good...

project89

iTrader: (1)

only after a bunch of wet sanding maybe ill share a picture of the rest of the car in a bit

project89

iTrader: (1)

just to give u guys an idea , this is the top of the fender compared to the washed hood , only did the first step on the fender so far so its nowere near done , just keep that inmind when comparing the 2 surfaces

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Well I am glad you scrapped the metallic green paint idea and stood with the blue/purple. Show a full shot of the front when you can, it's coming out great...

project89

iTrader: (1)

not definite that i wont still need to repaint , if the clear goes soft in the heat still then i will have to strip and start over

if i have to reapint its not going to be that green its either going to be a
green - blue flip flop



or a chemelon

project89

iTrader: (1)

btw joe i went back threw my ms settings today , and for whatever odd reason i was running 2 squirts simultaneously, so i switched it to 2 alternating , and the idle actually cleared up a good bit

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've been going back and forth between both.

There is no question that alternating fixes the idle pulsewidth issues and makes it idle better, however everything I'm reading says it's a **** idea under boost because the fuel is going to move around in the intake and go where the valves are open, not puddle on the back of a closed valve like on a n/a motor.

Ideally, it would do alternating at idle and switch to simultaneous when the pulsewidths cross a threshold (kinda like how $58 does it). But when I asked James he basically told me to **** off, and write it myself.

When you have a chance, email me a idle log. Curious how yours is running. Right now I'm running 2/alt and I'm seeing between 3.8-4 msec idle pulsewidths at 900rpm and 60 kpa.

I tried putting the car in storage last week, but I could barely stop it. I almost rolled out into the street. Long story short, new non-low drag calipers, different size master and I think that is cured. Got pissed off while waiting for parts, ripped the trans cooler off and mounted a FMIC. Started plumbing it. Ripped the exhaust off, rewelded all the joints. Fixed a few leaks, moved the wideband to the merge. Moving the trans cooler.
Then I need to figure out how to fabricate my blower to draw from my ram-air hood.

By next weekend it should be back up and running again.

My poor '75 Stingray is sitting out in a field. The grass is so high around it you can barely see the roof of the car.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

ill do that sometime tommorow for u , i finally brought my laptop home from my small datacenter so i could work on the car , pulse width actually went down a bunch switching from simul to alternating,
i wanna say it was 2.4msec on alt and was in the mid 3's on simul