SketchyZed

Heres what i'm working with a 91 z28 it had it's trans rebuild before i bought it, i am wanting a nice cruiser with a bit of a kick to at least keep up with the newer muscle cars now a days i have been looking at engines swaps like the ls or 383s but i have no clue what to do with it. the things i find i often need more things just to get those motors to work with my car but that will cost me a lot more

any suggestions?

thtanner

iTrader: (1)

Can always modify your existing engine and setup.

Depends on what your goal is, but for just some street performance, an exhaust, headers, heads, cam and intake change will go a long way.

SketchyZed

thanks i have been looking at some intakes actually can anyone recommend one for tpi

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

SInce the goal is to keep up with newer cars. Minimum would be upgrade fuel pump and 150 HP shot of nitrous on your engine. The TPI 5.7 stock had 220HP so only 370HP with a nitrous shot. The new 5.3 in trucks make 355 HP..........yeah, in a truck.

The heads, cam, intake path is a slow dance of wasting your money and still having not much HP. To make more HP with those parts you have to rev it and then the rest of the engine falls apart.

Best way is 150 HP nitrous, second best is supercharger kit, third is turbocharger. This is the order for someone with the least mechanical skills. Reverse the order for someone with maximum mechanical skills.

SketchyZed

I have been looking at cams and heads but can can't find any heads that would be good for what i'm using my car for

86CamaroDan

Im running a GM 350 HO and it made for a very decent street car for years. 212/222 duration, 435/460 lift with vortec heads. Ran with the new mustangs pretty decently. That was even before the EFI and blower. Vortec's new are cheap, i think their 600 for a set of new 062's. If your looking for intakes, id highly recommend a HSR

SketchyZed

Okay so this is what i'm thinking
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...Bn_RoC09zw_wcB
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/w...Ie1RoCwoPw_wcB
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/n...7/applications

86CamaroDan

Skip the summit heads, and that's exactly what i have. Stick with the GM 62cc heads though. The 67's are too big. Probably better quality too

SketchyZed

okay thanks

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

A 383 is pointless for most people, especially with out the accompanying upgrade parts for the TPI intake.

So the 383 will probably cost around $2500 on the cheaper side, and the TPI intake upgrades just to feed it close to another $800 (base + runners + TB) But then you'll need headers and an exhaust too, so another $400 for the cat-back, and you can probably score a set of headers for around $200-$300. But then you need a Y-pipe and thats probably $150-$200 to get that fabbed up.

Crap gets expensive fast. Plus you'll need it tuned, so you'll need a chip burned. Either you buy the equipment yourself or someone sends you a chip.

Once you factor all that in, its really not any cheaper than doing a LS swap with a newer 5.3L.

You can probably pick-up a 5.3L out of a junkyard cheap. Then you need the F-body oil-pan and some swap mounts. You'll need a Y-pipe to connect the manifolds to your exhaust. Unless you buy a set of swap headers, but those are expensive.

With the way technology is going, I'm a proponent of the LS swap. I put a ton into my LT1 swap since I was already so invested, but some days I wish I had scraped and parted all the goodies for a LS swap.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Everybody, well most of everybody on this website, does not go forged for their daily drivers. That right there limits you to how much power you can make while hanging with today's cars that were built from the factory to handle the extra horsepower that you can't. Most seem to target no greater than 450-Horsepower with their V8's, but this varies with many different factors. In my opinion, if your engine is in good running condition, if a compression and leak down check comes back with positive numbers, then just get a P1SC, better injectors, better ECU control, and call it a day. The P1SC will give you the power you need without going overboard with a cast setup, and will put a big smile on your face...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I picked up a 5.3 a few weeks ago. It's sitting on a stand in my shop. I have nothing to put it in, but I'm thinking of building it into a 400hp n/a 9:1 compression motor and bagging it.

The 4th gen cast manifolds are fantastic in this power range and fit thirdgens. The conversion motor mounts are not big money, and the flexplate adapters are cheap too. A junkyard 5.3, 6.0 with a cam swap would be a fantastic street upgrade. You should be able to control an LS motor with the stock ECM if you buy an MSD box with a trigger output. (You might not have timing control but you will have fuel control). Or can go Megasquirt.

Vortech just came out with a generic LSx supercharger kit that is around $2400 I believe. You can make over 500hp on a stock 5.3, or nearly 600hp on a modified 5.3 or 6.0 with a bolt on Vortech.

A 383 will cost twice as much in parts and machining. Go LSx unless you have a shop load of SBC blocks, heads, cranks, etc lying around.

-- Joe

86CamaroDan

The only downfall to a LS swap in my eyes is all the stuff to go along with it. Youll need a fbody pan, Front accessory drive, and the intake. Thats alone is good for a easy 1000 in parts, more if your looking for new stuff. If you go EFI you might as well just Megasquirt it, no point in buying good stuff then throwing a junky MSD box on there to make it unreliable.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

There isn't any real reason you can't convert a LS PCM to work in a thirdgen. If its a stock car you just need a basic flash tune to adjust for the items no longer present.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I actually just priced this stuff out last night.

On ebay, a used LS1 camaro/firebird intake is $175-200 buy it now.

Fbody pan, new, for 1998 camaro was $240.

The accessory drive is a bit more complicated. I've seen a few new 'kits' for $600 buy it now, which is absurd. I'd probably just make a few brackets.

I have no first hand experience with the MSD box, but a lot of the c3 corvette guys are running it. I'd go Megasquirt though.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

If you are going to spend money on an ECM, harness, tuning software, etc might as well go with an aftermarket setup that has more features.

If it's free, well, use that.

-- Joe

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

But the Megasquirt and harness by the time you get it all setup isn't that cheap. And it also is missing many of the tables that make fine tuning good fuel economy during cruising just aren't there.

A LS PCM isn't that expensive if you already have an LS engine. You can pick them up in junkyards. And converting the harness is well documented, so thats as cheap as your labor.

Pocket has the amazing thread on that.

I just don't see a reason to run a MS on a LS engine, when the stock PCM is actually great already. And if the PCM fry's later for whatever odd reason, you can still get one cheap in a JY.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I only spent $300 or so on mine. I did use the factory harness on my '88 Formula. I chose to use a delphi 56 connector and stick the MS inside the '165 ECM case so it looked factory, and didn't have to repin anything in case I needed to go back to stock.

I don't know if I agree with that. I've been playing with table switching lately (between MAF and MAP), and AFRtarget correction (wideband closed loop). I'm not a 411 PCM expert by any means, but the number of things I can configure on the MS are quite a bit more extensive then the $8D stuff I used to play with.

Right now on my test mule I've got MAF (LS1 sensor) configured for load calculations until the MAP sensor hits 100kpa, then the load calc is speed density.

My ignition table is MAP based.

I have a load adder table which allows me to add or subtract fuel from the calculated target. This is similar to the LV8 tables or whatever they were in $6E, but its a 16x16 table.

Additionally I have a correction curve (12 data points) from 0-whatever grams / sec, which will further override the MAF's calculated load.

The MAF sensor calibration has 1026 data points. Again, I don't know what the 411 PCM is (counts to grams/sec), but $6E only had 53. That's quite a measurable difference in resolution.

-- Joe

86CamaroDan

Thats great for you, but most guys like myself dont have the skills or tools too. So were stuck. I usually like to add 20% cost to any project i start for stuff i didnt think about and small stuff that nickels and dimes me. Its a expensive initial cost, but once your past that state, i totally agree. LS is the way to go.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm not disagreeing with you. I hadn't looked into the accessory drive and made a poor assumption. The price is absurd for the body stuff. But, those cars were produced for what 4 years?

I'll do some more research. I know the 5.3/6.0 intake fits if you have a cowl, ram air, etc hood. I'd be shocked if nobody sold cheap brackets for these things. People are sticking LSx motors in everything from imports to airplanes.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Well said, not to mention extra features that people boast about but never even use. I have heard nothing but countless features being had over the years but not one demo, or even a benefit from the demo. If people feel secure just telling themselves on the way to and from the track, or on the way to and from the grocery store about the features they have, but never use them, well then it defeats the whole entire point other than to say I have them. It's meaningless if not put into practice, and from a practical standpoint, it makes no sense. GM code is the best either way, and despite the arguments people may have, MS started as stripped down GM code anyway...

As for the LS engine being the way to go, SBC's, V6's, and I6's are still dominating the track by me, and the factory has since been leaning in that direction, so I fail to see the logic behind such a claim. Again, people claim the LS engine is the best, but no demo's from these very people, just parroted words from others who eventually go back to the SBC anyway. Carry on though gentleman, it's a very interesting conversation nonetheless despite going well beyond what the OP was originally asking...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That's because you are living in a cave using old technology. Visit some of the other forums and see what you're missing. Or take a ride up to NH and I'll show you in person.

I'll even let you borrow a MS as I have a spare, so you can stop using that junk

In all seriousness, I picked up an Ostrich last week and starting playing with $8D again, and I really almost forgot how absolutely crappy that stuff is. I'm not just talking about the crappy layout of tunerpro because I do have Tunercat as well, but just how limited everything is. I gave Vanilla some suggestions on adding features to his $8D boost project, but even then it's just not comparable.


You keep saying this, and it's making you look like an absolute fool because you don't know what you are talking about.

MS is written in C/C++. From scratch. GM code is in assembler. The hardware architecture is not even similar. The fueling algorithms are so far different it's not even funny, which is why you guys have so much trouble trying to figure out how to tune an MS after you've been handicapped by GM. There is NOTHING similar between GM code and MS at all. It's not possible to have started from any GM code.

Are you on drugs? Guys have been putting LSx engines in everything and making tons of reliable horsepower. This isn't a theory, it's fact. Heck there is probably more LSx motors in fox bodies now at the track than ford motors.


I'm starting to think you just like controversy.

-- Joe

Vanilla Ice

GM code in newer cars is substantially better than the $8D stuff you're looking at. I would go OEM PCM in an LSx swap without question.

As far as SBCs or LSx dominating tracks and such, the SBC is more plentiful among the track guys still, but to get the power the LSx guys see, they can't seem to equal mileage and drivability.

A high power LSx IS better than a high power Gen1 in a street car. A strip car it doesn't matter.

That's pretty much all there is to this discussion.

86CamaroDan

I dont have first hand experience, but i see allot of builds that involve porting stock heads, springs, pushrods a cam and slapping a ebay turbo on them and cranking out 5-600, sometimes 700 horsepower. Dont see many people with SBC's doing that with stock heads. Theres fast SBC's and V6's out there no doubt, but i dont see many of them doing it on a stock short block and set of heads. If i hadnt bought this car with the crate engine in it, i would already have swapped in a LS.
Im just amazed the LS heads flow that much, even in stock form.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Even the crappy 5.3 heads flow like 260cfm. The port height and shape, 15 degree valve angle, etc are all contributing to an amazing engine design.

If the goal is a fast daily driver, LSx gives idle quality, responsiveness, and power per dollar that you don't get with the older stuff.

-- Joe

SketchyZed

i'm trying to build here a nice daily with a bit of a kick to it but i can also take my girl out with it and enjoy the ride i found most of everything i need, a 350 ho and a intake

86CamaroDan

This is about 6 years ago when the crate motor was about stock, and i had a 2.73 rear diff. Im pretty happy with it.

SketchyZed

can someone list me all the parts i need for this intake https://www.summitracing.com/parts/w...Ie1RoCwoPw_wcB

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

If you are starting with a L98 you need the Intake, the fuel rails, -AN6 to factory fuel line adapters, fuel lines with -AN6 female fittings, a different thermostat housing for the coolant hose.

And you'll also need some spacers for the center bolts because they are at a different angle.

There are threads that cover all of these with part numbers.

Search for Stealth Ram installs on these boards.

86CamaroDan

Should be pretty straight forward. Intake gaskets, ditch the china wall ones and use silicone, Youll need the fuel rail kit and the fuel pressure regulator that comes with it. Swap over your injectors, or replace them with new ones (use new orings) Swap over your throttle body and run the wires, install the dristributor, time it and you should be good to go.

SketchyZed

can i have some links please i don't know much about efi

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Paypal us $100 each and we will take care of you.


In all seriousness, this is well documented. You need to do a little leg work.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Bang for buck up to 450 ish whp na, lsx stuff works best. Over that, costs start to get closer but still leans lsx
Max effort all motor, costs are similar imo. Both need cubes good heads and intakes but a big sbc needs a block like a shp as factory 400's are so so

Power adder, lsx truck motors bang for buck are best up to 800 whp or so. Alot push stockish lsx parts to 1000 fine as well.
After that both need blocks heads internals and all that costs similar if not cheaper for sbc

At my track, big block power adders rule the roost lol. But theres sbc sbf lsx 2jz hondas and gtr stuff all right there with each other

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Now that I know a 5.3 with truck intake and accessories will fit under a stock thirdgen hood, simply by changing to the small case alternator I'm quite enthusiastic about doing something with my 5.3.

Probably still bore it over and stick a 5.7 rotating assembly in it, but it could potentially be a nice 450hp n/a street motor.

Sounds like all I need is motor mounts, a fbody oil pan, and some 4th gen exhaust manifolds.

-- Joe

SketchyZed

listen i want the best for my car i have no idea whats a good product i need recommendations. i'm just starting out i got my camaro a few months ago

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

I know this is going to come off sounding rude. But its not me being rude, its me being honest.

This forum is FULL of information. Its literally the Wealthiest forum I've ever been part of when it comes to technical information.

The Search feature should be USED. You have enough information to find it.

In the alternative EFI intake forum there are 444 threads relating to it. And the 3rd thread down in my search contained a link to a hot-rod article, also a link to a youtube video.

Why should we continually re-visit the same topics when they are easily found.

I searched the alternative intake forum for "Stealth ram" and thats how I got my 444 results. Then I started reading.

I know my OWN install thread is in that forum as well. And I know that in my thread I documented EVERY single part# and the problems I ran into.

No one will slam you for asking questions. But at the same time, we don't want to answer the same questions that have been asked, and answered thoroughly before. So please use the search button and dig through. You will find answers to questions you don't even know you have to ask yet.

SketchyZed

okay thank you

SketchyZed

okay i found everything i need for my dd thank you all for helping but i just have one last question. what do you all think of long tubes and these https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hed-18701/overview/ with my set up

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

On a mild street car I typically go with shorty headers. On a faster (550+hp) the long tubes are a good option.

On my Formula I went with the OBX stainless long tube headers. They are 1 3/4" primary and have really impressive ground clearance. I did make some modifications to the "Y" merge because I didn't like how they went under the crossmember, plus my TH350 cross member was in a different location.

If the car is only making 350-400hp, the Hedman 68470 headers work perfectly fine. If you can get your hands on some SLP 1 3/4 even better. Stay away from hooker or hedman long tubes, they scrape everything and rot out.

-- Joe

SketchyZed

yeah when i'm done i expect 400

Kingtal0n

And that same 5.3 truck engine, without a single modification internally, just a proper turbocharger setup, will support 500-600 bhp in a daily driver for 50-100k miles. Pretty sick little engines they produced.

86CamaroDan

I have a set of the ceramic coated hedman longtubes and other than a little grinding on the K member, Im very happy with them (mind you im also running a 6 speed). Ground clearance is BETTER than with my edelbrock TES shorties, and i had to get rid of my spohn tq arm/cross member and that actually free'd up MORE ground clearance. Never thought i'd see the day where switching to long tubes was a win/win combination.
You will need a little bit of skill to make a custom Y pipe though

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've never run them, but I've run plenty of Hookers on both my thirdgen, 2nd gen, and C4. They all rot. The Hedman long tubes are 1 5/8 so I figure if you are going to go with a race header, get a bigger tube.

I'm pretty happy with the stainless 1 3/4 OBX headers:

86CamaroDan

After doing some measuring of the exhaust ports on the vortec's they match the primary's (I belive you actually pointed that out) so i opted to stay 1 5/8. The OBX's were #2 on my list.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Yeah Vortec has a small exhaust runner.

My AFR 210s have a large exhaust port.

That's why I typically recommend the hedman 68470 to most people doing street builds. They are cheap and work fine.

I picked up some stainless shorty headers for my C3 for like $120 recently. I'm somewhat impressed by the quality. It's getting very cheap to build a car.

-- Joe