engongam

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EIB-12005500900/

I need to use minimum 900lbs springs and I do not know the diameter of my moog stock height springs, I installed 502 ram jet and car eventually dropped 2" without doing anything, just because the heavy weight... So, I definetly need 900 or more lbs springs, Would this http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EIB-12005500900/ part work with the spohn k member or stock k member?

Long story short, does anyone know the diameter of stock 91 trans am GTA springs?

engongam

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EIB-11005501300/ or 1300lbs=)

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

should be 5.5" od, as for the length you would need, i cant help there

engongam

Great, thanks, Should I buy the 2" drop spindles to use 11"springs? I know I should but buying 4 springs and 2 spindles together might be a little much for me to spend.

Is it possible to use 11" fornt springs without using the 2" drops,

And does anyone know the spring diameter of 91 trans am rear springs? Is it same 5.5" with the fronts?

One more thing, normally I should buy the exact same height springs to front and rear right?

engongam

Does anyone know the rear spring diameter?

Thanks...

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

my stock v6 rear springs are about 5.25" in diameter

engongam

below is a message that I've sent to Dean(Vetruck? smthng like that) after a while...

Let me tell you the progress...

I replaced my oil pan and we are ok about the clearance. I did my shopping=) I bought QA1 double adjustable coilover kit with 225 lbs spring rate to back. Yellow koni's (qa1's and varishocks were extremely expensive...). 2" drop spindles from racecraft. Extended ball joints from QA1, Jegs Panhard bar relocator and finally 1200lbs Eibach front springs, ...

I changed all suspension bars with Spohn del sphere double adjustable bars (LCA,Panhard, Torque arm)

Now what I am asking from you is how those differences effect the car? For example, I changed the distance between rear tires and front tires (I equalized them with computer alignment) The car felt very bad, It was all over the place, front nose dive was ok but rear... omfg. I was changing lanes very rapidly and rear felt like a snake, It was comming after the nose enters, It did not feel rigid. That is what I experienced.

I want to learn what lowering the panhard bar does to car or incresing the a arm angle, or incresing the rebound-compression values of the shocks...

Help me out=)

Thanks...

Does any one have an idea about whats going on?

Guest

Hi Berk. I had recommended 1100 lbs springs with extended ball joints...OR...I recommended 1000 lbs springs with drop spindles.

I did not want you going both extended ball joints AND drop spindles. That might make the angle of the A arm too steep and the A-arm too close to the ground.

I see in the other post you had 1200 lb front springs and you say there is hardly any nise dive. You may have gone too stiff where it is affecting lateral roll. From 700 to 1200 is a big jump, especially if we are lowering the car and raising the front rooll center height reducing leverage by using drop spindles AND extended ball joints.

I would recommend removing shims from the monoballs to take out the extention of the bal joint (If hey are adjustable) and put them to stock height if you can, then buy some 1000 lb 5.5 OD by 13" tall free height springs to use with the 2" drop spindles.

I had a lighter weight motor without drop spindles and I used a 800lb spring 5.5 OD and 12" free height and I was in the weeds with a 24 3/4" front fender lip height.

Dean

Guest

The rear springs are pigtail springs. Why are you asking this though? I thought in the other poost you said you now have coilovers with 225lb springs.

engongam

Yes, that was before ordering the coilovers=)

engongam

I did recieved my springs yet, and I can makse some changes about the order since summit will ship those springs on 5/2 and spindles are on the way, so I guess having 1000lbs would be a better choice? about the free height, I ordered 11" springs=) I thought that I am dropping the car 2" so I might need the 11" springs not the 13" ones. That's why I've sent a sms actually, not to make any mistakes, I also orderes bumo steerkit and LCARB from spohn, I did not had those...

I am writing you an email which is in more detail...

A big thanks from me to you for helping me out=)

Guest

If anyone else can help us here with spring info that would be greatly appreciated.

I am talking with Berk about spring rates and heights.

What are my concerns?- This....

The springs I had in my car were 800lb 5.5 x 12" coils from suspension spring specialist years ago.

My car was a very light weight V6 car with a motor weighing about 350 lbs. most Iron V8 cars weigh about 500-550 lbs and the wiehgt also sits more forward in the engine bay over the front tires than my smaller shorter V6 did.

With the springs I had, I did NOT run isolators and my cars front fender height was 24 3/4"... In other words, it was very low. THIS WAS WITHOUT DROP SPINDLES and I used an additional 1/2" extended monoball to change my front geometry which lowered the car more so I added a 1'4" spring isolator to raise it slightly back up a 1/2". I got that urethane 1/4" groment form AFCO afew years ago.

My concern is with Berk, we have a very heavy weight engine AND we are using drop spindles but trying to keep the car at about 25.5 to 26" fender lip height with a 25.7" tire. His tires I think are different, but I will figure the difference in them against the fender height so I can reference where he actually sits if he had 25.7" tires on the car- this way I can figure where his a-arm arm heghit and angles are.

What I am thinking we need is a 5.5 x 13" coil and I can not seem to find one. Any suggestions? Other wise we may have to go the Ground control weight jacker route to ge tthe added spring pocket height with the properly reduced coil spring height to mathc the aprox 13" free height I figure he will need. I would rather he have room to slightly trim coils rather than error on the shorter side and be screwed with being too low.... expecially with all that BBC 502 weight up front.

I would like to see him go to about a 1000 lb spring rate since he has Koni Yellows for hgih front compression force as well as raise front roll center with the drop spindles.

maybe someone can help with GC weight jacker info and how much adjustment height they have on their own. Example-do they adjust lets say from a range of 2" to 4 1/4"? If so then with that exmple we could go to a 9.5" spring height and dial the wieght jacker to aprox 3.5" to get the ride height we need.

Dean

engongam

Let me give an extra info about the tire that I am going to use, they are pirelli pzero rosso's 245 40 18 in front, 275 45 18 in rear. I cannot remember the name of the product but there was something that weled to the top where spring sits and you can adjust the height somehow... Could I be clear about what I am talkin about?

Roostmeyer

iTrader: (3)

Weight jacks is what your thinking of Berk,
http://www.ground-control-store.com/...hp/II=20/CA=86

I would strongly suggest using 275's all the way around for your tires. With all the weight on the front of the car adding more tire in the rear isn't going to help.

I think you’re confused about spring heights here... In the front, with the same spring rate a 2" shorter spring will lower the car much more than 2". With the low motion ratio at the front of these cars a 2" shorter spring will lower the car closer to 4". In the back the motion ratio is very high, actually slightly over one, so a 1" shorter spring will roughly correspond to a 1" lower ride height for the same spring rates.

With the 2" drop spindles, you want a spring that is about 11" tall loaded with probably 2000+ lb load. Dean is right in the ballpark for a 13" spring and 1100lb/in springs. Unfortunately you may have to get custom made springs for that height or run the weight jacks with a shorter spring.

Dean, I'm not familiar with the weight jacks as I've been able to avoid that purchase, but I'm sure ground control would be able to help spec a spring that will work with the added front end weight and there weight jacks.

engongam

There was an another company who sells those weight jacks too, even they were much cheaper, I guess they were around $120 or so... I wish I could find that=) http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedw...Bolt,5983.html Would this work for me too?

engongam

I only need the adjusters, groundcontrol sells it with springs. Let me ask if they sell just the adjusters...

Roostmeyer

iTrader: (3)

Thats a part of what you would need to fabricate your own weight jacks. What ground controls is a drop in kit ready to go. I would try giving them a call, I'm guessing they can sell you parts peicemeal. I think the kit I linked you to is for both the front and rear. Sounds like you just need the front minus springs.

383fbod

iTrader: (2)

YIKES die cast alum? no thanks! 25 bucks holding my oil pan off the ground? no way! Im not holding up a 502 either.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

I highly recommend going with weight jacks. I myself have have these from Ground Control.


In that pic, the rear springs (on the left) are upside down & the adjusters for the front springs, are also upside down & set on top of the springs, between the spring a K-member.

All 4 springs are from Eibach.

Unfortunately, I can't tell you how tall the front adjusters are. I never measured them & can't measure the fronts without pulling them out.

I measured the rear adjusters (just now) to have 1.5" in adjustment, in addition to however much the springs themselves give in drop. You can choose your rate & free spring height separately (within the physical limits of coil spacing & their compression). Like for examples.....A 500lb 9" spring or a 500lb 13" spring.

Guest

I would safely say looking at this picture that the GC weight jackers are in a range of about 2" to 4" tall of adjustment. Next to the spring they look like about 3" tall if that spring is 5.5" OD.

So yes, a 5.5" OD x 9.5" tall spring should work with the weight jackers to give you the aprox 13" free height range.
Dean

Guest

Berk, I got your email links. Figured I would respond here.

When I wrote that sticky above ..Ultimate 3rd gen Suspension......This is actually the parts I would use in my next thrid gen build if I do ever find me a TTA for the right price. I want to show you exactly what parts I would use and how I would use them. Best advice I can give anyone else is to show exactly what I personally would buy and do. (ps- I have a girlfriend that would rather I get rid of my Sugar Caddy and buy another sports car. I want a TTA that is not pristine that I can alter and not kill the value of it, but not so altered it can't be smogged and or is a rust bucket. Just a high mileage 89 TTA would do that has seen better days and is in need of a makeover.)

First you start with this plate. You will need two of them and they front suspension needs to be completely taken apart. with a-arms dropped out of the way so you can weld up inside the top of the spring can.

A pilot hole needs to be drilled up through the top of the cneter of the spring can from underneath -to- up into the engine bay area. I would use a small 1/4" bit to start. Why? we need to see where the hole comes out of on top as not to hit anything like headers, etc. Once a hole is through and you see if you have adequate clearance to do this, then we may proceed in buying parts. A larger hole needs to be drilled out about 1 1/4" diameter to allow the jack bolt to slip through it.

On the bottom side of the can, with the jack bolt threaded into it and centered on the hole you drilled (THis plate resing center of the spring pocket is VERY important so the spring does not hit the side of the can walls.) Weld this plate into place on the underneath sside of the spring pocket on each side of the car. Make sure you buy the 1" course thread bolt plate since the swiveler assembly I will show you next is 1" bolt.
Here's the plate: http://www.speedwaymotors.com/WEIGHT...LATE,6509.html

Next you thread this Swiveler weight jacker up from underneath so the bolt is adjusted from uptop inside the engine bay- easy adjustment for corner weights and ride height. These swivelers are gret for reduction of spring binding through suspension articulation. I like this better than the GC weight jackers becasue 1) they adjust easier, 2) they swivel, and 3) they can accomedate a linger coil spring for a more percise coil spring rate without shorter spring rate increase. Even though shorter and or narrower springs are lighter, a larger diameter and or a taller spring is generally more percise and better ride quality. This setup will aloow for an 11" spring rather than GC's unit with a 9.5" spring. You could still use a 9.5" tall spring with this also.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/AFCO-S...DisplayId=4676

The b*tch part of this is welding that plate up inside there upside down!!!!

Dean

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iTrader: (14)

probably easier to just pull the k-member to weld.

I like deans idea, using the weight jacks the "proper" way and adjusting from the engine bay, saw a pic on here somewhere with a guy who did that, however, i just dont like how the front "frame rail" are uneven on the k-member. IIRC, the passengerside is more in the engine bay than the driverside, putting the jack bolt almost in the side of the rail.

This would work pretty well in the rear too. Use the same frame plate and weld in into he rear spring pocket, again piloting into the rear cargo area, for the jack bolt. Then you would have to relocate the axle spring perches to the top of the axle tube, not behind the tube. Could even make a nice plate to cover the hole in the carpet for a cleaner look.

Im probably going to do this to my 92 one of these days. THe rear coil-over setup i have works now, but fitting them in the stock location is really tight and the control arms and sway bars are kinda in the way.
At least with the weight jacks in the rear you could still use a more conventional shock.

DBLTKE

iTrader: (1)

I have a picture of my GC weight jacks in both the fully extended and fully lowered positions. I did take a bunch of measurements but I'm trying to find out what I did with them.

engongam

Thanks for the replies and sorry for delay, I ordered the stuff from speedway and 5.5OD 9.5"(I still have time to change, summit will not deliver it untill 5/1/10) 1000lb springs from eibach. I'll let you know when those goodies arrive. While surfin in Summit I found this bar, I welded the panhard reloction bracket from jegs but I did not replaced the upper bar (which is very tiny and bent) http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UPI-2024-B/ What do you think? Should I get one of those?

Roostmeyer

iTrader: (3)

The purpose of those panhard support bars are for true dual exaust. They allow you to route exhaust over the axle on the driverside of the car as well as the passenger side.

I wouldn't bother unless you must have dual exhuast or if you just want the shiny red powder coat and extra weight.

engongam

mission aborted=)
Thanks...

blyth18md

tons of weight jack info in this thread, too bad the pictures are no longer up.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...ght-jacks.html

engongam

I can just see the pictures on this thread, I cant see the ones in your link. Strange=)

Guest

That bar is not good to use Berk. It lowers the chassis side panhard monut and will diliver ill effects in corner jacking and squating in oppsite directions. It yeilds poor geometryy of the parnhard bar, plus you will never need the rear RC that low that this panhard brace relocation kit would required the car to be for good geometry- I doubt anyone would, not even my light nosed and extremely low V6. I agree with Roostmeyer that this one yiou should pass on. I see you already confirmed his opinion so great news.

engongam

Yeap, I guessed that It was no good to use on behalf of what I learned=) Are you ok with the spring height? I can stiil change it? You want me too keep it as 9.5" 1000lb?

Guest

Yes. I really think that is the spring choice you need with the ride height range we are looking for as well as the raised front roll center from using drop spindles.

Berk, The only major concern I have suggesting all of this to you with the weight jackers coming up into the engine bay is the fact you have that big block motor in that engine bay- I am worried where the header tube lay and where they might interfer with the jack bolts coming up through the k-member/subframes. I just do not want you getting mad at me if we end up with a clearance issue. Thats why I first suggested drilling a pliot hole up through them first from the bottom side before we do all this. I think you will be ok, but I just am not certain since I have not seen the car in person. I would love to maybe someday fly out to Turkey and go run some european courses with you if I can afford the timeand cost in the next year. I have that same dream everyone else does to someday run the "ring"

engongam

Don't worry, if somehow cleerance issues occur, I will find a way to install them or I can sell them to someone here, I will be the first guy who uses weigh jackers in Turkey... I should be able to find someone to buy weigh jackers since the market is available =)

I uploaded some pictures foryou to look at the clearance.

I could not excatly understand the possible problem, I do not think that there is going to be problem but there is a question mark in my head which is one of my strut tower might be bent to inside. How can I understand that it is OK or not?

Dean, maybe we can meet in Germany and live the "ring" experience together=) We can spesifically tune the car for the ring to=)

Guest

You have all new lower suspension points and bushings. We will wait and see how things line up in comparison up top to the strut mounts and deal with any potential camber issues later. We can always elongate the camber slots more if needed and use a little hammer to persued things. The original problem could easily have been bad or worn componants like worn A-arm bushings and worn ball joints that would affect the lower position and thus affect the upper strut tower alignment of each side of the suspension as well as the factory k-member could have been shifted or bent. time will tell.

The engine bay looks good from the veiw you are showing where the headers come off the engine near the engine bay subframe on the passenger side.

I have an old friend from High School (Darin Derks) that lives in Germany I could probably visit and stay with. We will have to talk about this later when we get this car shaken in and tuned after a few months of testing to get it dialed. would like to get you baseline balanced first before we start tackling something like the Ring. Best to keep it on smaller circuits with repetitive corners to get more trial and error feedback on adjustments. I want to be availiable for you on the phone when that happens so I can give you immediate track side response.

engongam

Yeap, after the installation we will see how the things lined up. My order from spohn and speedway will be arrived on 4/30, so I have very little time left to install the stuff to tha back; front springs, adjustable ball joints and spindles are on the way too but there is still time for them to arrive (probably like 5/20)

Yeah I have to save some money for thr ring too after these purchases=)

engongam

deleted.

blyth18md

Just as an FYI. I came across my springs specs. Im running 8.75" x 5.5" (840lbs/in) front springs. Dont have a fender height, but it is reasonable, with pretty of room to be lowered further as the ground control weight jacks are near the top of their adjustment.

Once I decide to start working on it I'll recheck ride height and get a few pictures.

Guest

Thanks Blythe. Berk is also running drop spindles so I really am hoping the 9.5" tall coils will work in the range we need. If not, then a little trimming will not hurt. I would rather he be on the taller side than the shorter soide since it is so hard for him to get parts to Europe area.

DBLTKE

iTrader: (1)

I just measured the rear adjuster sleeves. There is 2" of adjustment in them and when at their lowest setting they only take up 1/2" of free height when seated.

engongam

I will use coil overs at the back, no height problems...

engongam

Here are the updates::


Front shocks and bump steer kit (adjustable koni yellow's)




a arm angles:


Rear LCA relocation brackets and rear coil over conversion(double adjustable QA1's):




Weigh Jacks: (I still did not recieve my drop spindles, adjustable del sphere a arms, adjustable ball joints and front springs so I did not installed them)

engongam

with different tires and ride height pictures:








old rear tires: kumho 275 40 18
new rear tires: pirelli pzero rosso 275 45 18

front dimensions are the same

Blown84Bird

Ooh shiny. I'm Jealous LOL looks good have you installed the weight jacks installed

engongam

No, I am waiting for some other parts to install the weigh jacks...

Blown84Bird

Well looks good from What I see when you do install the jacks post up some pics. very interesting

engongam

Sure thing...

blyth18md

The car looks great, and you're actually listening to the guidance youre being given (might be a TGO first). Only thing that concerns me is the K-member, keep an eye on it once you start driving the car hard, most don't seem engineered for any rigors beyond occasional drag strip blasts.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

what did you use for the coil-overs? just off the shelf qa1's, or the kits form Spohn?

im asking because im curious what kind of shock travel you have, and what mounts you used/made if its not spohns kits.

engongam

It's spohn's kit, with 220lb spring rate

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

ok, and at your ride height, how much travel is left in the shock? both of me spohn sets didnt have nearly enough travel, just over an inch in one car nad 1.5 in the other. The shocks would bottom out if you hit a good bump.

might want to check that before you drive, you may have to make some new lower mounts to lower the the coilover.

Guest

Berk, Things are looking great. The A-arm angles look good range so far considering the future install of spindles will bring them down a bit. We look like we are in perfect range for the desired final result.

Don't worry about the bump steer adjustments yet. I will walk you through bumping the car once evertything is set at desired ride height.

THe rear LCA brackets I see are in. Your pictures to me are a little dark so I will have to copy and brighten them but it appears you have the rear LCA's in the lowest mount holes. You need to move them up till the LCA's are about parallel to the ground or just a very small angle downward in the rear. I would just use the next hole down from stock, not the lowest for now. Any corner exit wheelhop and we will drop this adjustment later one hole at a time if ever needed.

I agree with Blythe about the concerns of the aftermarket K-members. I did mention this in that Ultimate Suspension sticky I did a while ago up top that these are really mad for drag racing. WHen you have the K-member out welding in the weight jacks, yoiu might want to think about adding some plate bracing to the k-member. I can give yiou some ideas if needed. Just added insurance from corner flexing- you have alot of nose weight with that BBC 502 ramjet. That new oilpan clearance is terrific!

Panhard bar angle is still in acceptable range. If the car is loose, e will consider getting that Jegs relocator onto there to lower the axle side and tighten the cars corner balnace that way once we begin testing if that way is needed, but for now you are good. You can weld it in there if you have it, but do not necessarily lower the bar angle yet. I do not wnat to tighten the roll axis yet until we test what the car will do. Adding the front drop spindles does the same basically as lowering the rear. I would rather keep the roll axis up near the CG rather than lowering both front and rear roll centers lower away from the cg because of the heavier 502 motor.

Dean