paras99

I have driven a couple of decent lsx powered third gens in my life that were plenty powerfull. and great fun to drive with some money put into suspension mods. However this past week i had the pleausre to drive a z06 and a c6 grandsport. and those cars were a beast. Im sure there are plenty of third gens out there that would give these cars a run for their money down the drag strip. but the greatest things about the vettes was the way they handled.

i was just wondering if a third gen had the potential to ever handle like a corvette and have the same feel as one?

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

A few Christmases ago, I met up with a bunch of Corvette friends. I asked if I could go for a ride in a C5 Z06. I was expecting it to ride like Fred Flintstone's car. After all, Corvette suspension goes base --> Z51 --> Z06. And Z06's stock are essentially lowered springs on low profile large wheels.

Was I ever amazed at how smooth it drove. Went over bumps like nothing at all. Light years smoother and better handling than my (stock) GTA was.

I think with great shocks and rod ends etc, you could match a Z06 for handling. But I don't see how our cars could ever have the same smoothness that the Corvettes have.

Guest

Having recently driven a 2010 ZR1... yes a 3rd gen can handle just like one. Takes alot of money, but half what that ZR1 cost.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

In 2009 I drove a convertible ZHZ corvette (the hertz rental type, with the LS3 430HP).. It was bloody fast and handled like a champ and was smooth. The biggest thing i noticed was the steering wheel stiffness (cuz of the wider tires i presume). The car was VERY good over bumps (although this was in Miami and the roads there are super smooth).

Despite all that, the advantage I found was the predictability over our cars, although recently I have done alot to the suspension of my car (and good tires too) and I have to say I for some reason like the "feel" of the IROC's steering better. I don't know how to explain it.. But you feel the road more and I think the turning ratio is faster in IROC boxes than in new vettes.. Oh and I HATED the god damn newer type throttle feel (drive by wire i think it's called), I like the old school pedal feel much better.

Guest

I have driven 3 C6 LS3's. One of them was a girl I dated that had a 2008, I drove Soniques Vette many times. I flipped that thing around the an onramp near my home I was very familiar with in my Camaro. My Camaro would eat that car for lunch around that 50 mph cloverleaf. I can tell you very positively my camarop would walk right up around that vette on the outside lane of that onramp- that will give you a camparison what my car did. That Vette was much faster, but could not hold edge- braking was fairly close to the same feel- but my brake pad compound felt much smoother and weasier to modulate.

Now the ZR1, I really did not have a chamce to lay that around a high speed sweeper on edge, but I did blast it up to about a 100mph real quick with traction control off. Very nice car even on cold tires and cold brakes. Really no warmup needed which is rare for a high dollar exotic.

Stay away from bi-polar Persian women..my tip for the day.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

haha wow man! thats alot of corvettes u drove there.. im sure the new ls9 vette would have been a match for ur camaro? just the technology alone in that car is ridiculous!

on a side note, my gf is persian lol! so i feel ur pain! lmao.. u speak farsi by the way?

Guest

Nope, no farsi.

I can not tell you how many Corvettes I have drivin in my lifetime. Well over 50. We have had 6 in our immediate family alone (plus the "vette truck" so 6 1/2 technically - '63 split window, '64 roadster, two '68's, '87, and a 2000. my '68 racecar is still pictured on Dick Guldstrands website. It will still beat a ZR1 in a dragrace, but can not touch it in braking or high speed cornering... or gas milage I have to run 110 octane, can squeak by on LL100 in a pinch but a 3 mpg when on it? It is a garage queen. You can see the car's capabilities in the video link below, it is a real monster to drive- an with no powersteering my efforts on the track show alot of throttle indcued steering.

Guldtrand Motorsports Website:
http://www.guldstrand.com/gallery_04.asp
Video footage of me racing the '68 (Crank up the volume ):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8owSVZaWH3A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNHl0cFaP0w

Camaro autox run on street tires 245/50-16's- This car seems slow because it just flows like a slalom skier running gate, it just carves very smoothy you do not realize how fast the runs are with no power at all. Remeber, those are strret tires and they get overheated after only about 20 seconds so the last few corners coming back art you show their greasiness where it is slidfing alittle rather than gripping= but you can see real good when it comes back at you how agile this car is.-
http://www.youtube.com/user/cockdies...13/URifGQjnUXY

So you can compare another 3rd gen, this was the second fastest of our group that day. This is Greygoose in his V8 car with 17x11 rear wheels. you can see the difference in speed and agility between my car and his when both are coming into the last few corners towards the finish line. My Car is so smooth and quiet you do not realise how fast it is actually cornering. listen to Goose's tire noise. I beat him by 3.9seconds that day my best to his- Mike is a very respectable driver and again he also had wider wheels and tires on his car. That V6 I had was that good.
http://www.youtube.com/user/cockdies...10/3YOE9Y_I2IM

Then of course the the 4800 lb longbed vette truck- this is just funny ( The 2nd run was Nick driving, not me in the little off road experience)-
http://www.youtube.com/user/cockdies...19/IqI8xSvlo10
The Camaro will easily match a ZR1 stock on an autox course as for cornering speeds and braking, but that ZR1 has so much useable power it really would eat me for lunch in lap times over the pathetic 135rwhp V6. My Camaro was much more fun to drive on a road course when it come to setting it around high speed corners (anything over 45mph up to the high banks even at California speedway where I reached 123mph on a GPS reading in the V6. The Camaro and the 68 Vette are no match in comparison because the throttle imputs setting the chassis are so rediculously different it isn't even funny. The Camaro hold edge like a race ski, the Vette you have to manhandle and pedal, The Camaro is like a sofa on wheels.- alot like the new ZR1 and the LS3 vettes especially when traction control is on.

New technology is really just new cars with lightweoght suspension componmants and great new advances in modern shock technology. Anu older car on a racetrack can be brought up to modern times with tires and exotic metals and a little geometry revorking or innovation. Want proof? go to any vintage racing event like HSRWest etc and you will see alot of older Vettes as well as akk kinds of vehicles running las times right in sequence with newer GT2 Porsche's and Vipers and such.On a race track it boils down to tire compound and that tire conpound's contact patches on all four corners getting the best grip for the most time around the entire lap....REGARDLSS WHAT CAR THOSE TIRES ARE ATTACHED TO. A car type fot the most part is just an emblem with a bunch of plastic, glass, liquid and metal resting weight on those tire- people get too intimidated by Emblems- an Emblem is on good when a car is stock vs stock.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

How old are these vids (the ones with ur V6 camaro)? The corvette vids look like you are driving much more aggressively.

And, what ever happened to that camaro? Do you still have it/drive it?

camaronewbie

One thing different with the Z06 is the body - it's made different - made from composites or aluminum or something (I forgot), not steel like the others. GM has an entire different stamping facility for the Z06 chassis/body. So it's alot lighter weight than the other vettes and has different flexing characteristics.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

I think they have carbon fiber roofs.. But yeah, the body is a key factor i think in reducing weight.. Carbon fiber is the best composite to use cuz it's stronger and lighter than steel and fiberglass, but is more expensive obviously. If they made a carbon fiber door for our cars then that would be something.. Big job though but could be fully functional and would reduce a ton of weight on the outer most parts of the car (side to side).

cIaRmOaCrZo

one of the biggest differances is the vett has the IRS (independent rear suspension), that makes a world of differance in auto-x. camaros are straight axle obviously. but the straight axle design has a much more advantage for straight line drag racing. so to me, thats one of the key differances in handling between the two.

Guest

The Vette under obvious reasons is a far more aggressive car, You have to manhandle it. No power steering and 540 rwhp on a small tight course with very wide tires. Those rears are 335 30 17's on 13" wide wheels. You have to set and steer the Vette with the throttle, the Camaro just flowed with no power and you carve lines to avoid scrubing off speed that is hard to make back up. Entirely two different driving styles. If I had power in the Camaro like the Vette? Look out, it would be driven very different.

Camaro video's are from about 2006.

What happened to that car? If things go as planned I will have it back within the next year from the ex

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

I hope you're on good speaking terms with your ex. Or else it will come back looking like this.

RyanEricW

^ Oh god... I hope that person was put in jail

cuisinartvette

You can get them to handle very well as far as picking up the G factor but it will never be "like a Corvette", too much technology in their suspension systems that aid them in being what they are. How fast do you really need to corner, is pulling a G really that important, how often do you think youll get there? You can get a lot of different cars to come close to that G mark but handling quality/ride wont be the same.

Have owned 3 Vettes and driven many they are hard to match.

Only thing I DO like better about straight axle cars is they speak to you and give you a little heads up when the car is about to go, with the Vettes they can make you a little overconfident. They stick SO well....have come close many times to putting mine over the side of a cliff or into a hillside, when they finally decide to let loose its very sudden and youre just along for the ride most the time. Going back to a straight axle car probably extended my lifespan some, Im too much of an idiot with a car that goes around a corner like that.
(they are a royal pita to work on too!!!!!)

Make the most of what you got and enjoy it.

Guest

The court will throw her in jail then or foirce her to reimburse me in other property or money. I have her on the hook bigtime. My previous lawyer did me a real injustice and did not study evidence he had until I recently finally recieve my entire closing file from him. I have been studying the paperwork and have discovered she pergured herself in a major financial way. I have a court date Monday for the first time I am taking her to court after about her taking me 50 times in 3 yrs.- She finally overstepped her boundry and her lies are showing now. She can't hid from this, and was not expecting this either. She is also very possibly reading this too....oh well- good luck.

Crusinartvette, that quite possibly just the difference in tire sidewall that is making the vette unpredictable. You highside a pinner sidewall without power to get youself out of trouble and it will snap around on you every time unforgiving- unlike a 50 series tire will give predictability (given the better quality tires of course, not the crap brands) You set a new Vette into a hard 50+mph corner and the sidewall snap loads from a bump and the car will go spinning because you loose all suspension travel and shcokload the tire mechanically. I like sidewalls. I do not like anything less than a 40 series tire on anything running high speeds. The new vette as powerful as they are still do not have enough power to get themselves out of trouble at 60mph. I have come onto the Chapman 55 s onramp cloverleaf several times sideways in a c6 vette resnapping the clutch in 3rd on corner exit at about 55mph and it will hold gingerly to about 70 but you had better be sweet with the steering wheel or it will sanp into the guardrail. That Vette wil shake and bobble as the rears and fronts are fighting for grip sending you in god knows what direction if you are not kepping the wheel jiggled with the chassis.

IRS is overated. It will keep a better footptint if setup correctly, but the movement over bumps makes the vette more unpredictable bcause the forgivness line is thinner yeolding often overconfidence in the car. THis is why they developed traction control for the old men and ladies that more often then not drive them. It keeps amatuers out of trouble. pulsing individual brakes and yawing the chassis attitude in defense of spinning. In my book? A sofa on wheels that anyone could drive- which traslates into the next wuestion- "If anyone can drive a new Vette then are all new vette drivers good drivers? THey think they are- simple solution, lets see their confidence level stabbing that car with traction control off. The ZR1 I erecneltly drove spent two months and 24,000 in the repair shop after the owner let his son rap the car out without the button on- with his dad in the pasenger seat. This guy has money to burn though and laughed about it telling me the story. THe arrogant rich kid just laughed to- I would have been embarassed but these kids nowadays know no shame.

cuisinartvette

Yes they do that snapping thing which can be unsettling, then when trying to correct if youre quick enough (I wasnt, just got lucky) they snap back but take their own direction lol. Not for me. Fun to look at and drive but will probably never own another. 3 was enough.

Have 50 series and some susp upgrades to my A body and love it. Firm, handles excellent but still lets me know when it wants to move around. Sure a well set up Iroc would be much much better than that.

Gumby

2nd gens were like that too, Its some physics and perception from the long nose and the feeling of being like the driver in the rear of a fire truck. To much input delay or something for seat of the pants. [Took out a tree with mine cause of that, good size thick as your leg tree but it just snapped right off, only got some scratches from it falling on the car, just backed up n drove off before I was asked why I ended up in someones front yard taking that turn ]

Love my 3rd gen, unlike my 2nd gen, it stops and goes where I want at will

paul_huryk

While the C5 and C6 Vettes (of all designations) are great cars, they aren't invincible when it comes to handling by any means.

Some think that the independent rear is so much better than the solid ones the thirdgens have - on a rough road - absolutely, on a smooth one; not at all. How many road or autocross courses look like NJ roads after a snowy winter - not too many.

The question is - can a modified third gen handle as well or better than a moded C6, the answer is yes. Even a thirdgen with stock size 245-50-16 tires with a decent lowering spring/sway bar/struts & shocks combo can pull 1g and slalom pretty darn good. Then change out all the control arms for aftermarket ones, subframe connectors, 275-40-17 rubber, and a TQ arm and you are one step ahead. Then take it a step further and go front coil overs and start taking out weight (like an LS3 to even the score) and you are even further ahead.

When you think of it, the Vettes are much more optimized as they are newer and need to go head to head with highly engineered cars like the 911 and M3, so there isn't as much upside to them as some older cars with good designs; but have half *** parts executions. We can take off 150lbs off my camaro with an LS1 swap, but the Corvette can't. We can go at least 30mm wider on my tires and keep them in the wheel wells - the Vette can't.

cuisinartvette

I dont know, a C6 handles pretty well, mod the susp and it would be really hard to stay with on a road course. They may feel a little soft but they will still go around a corner quicker than one would think.
They soak up imperfections that could send most older cars skipping and the Vette stays planted. See your point though and agree a 3rd gen could easily be modded to 1g which is pretty impressive no matter what.

the solitaire

I just want to add an ever so short rant on composites since we're on the topic anyways.

Composites like carbonfibre or basalt fibre can be very helpful, if used right.

Since most companies do not have the capacity or experience to deal with composites properly they are all too often just used as stand alone components, which helps reduscing weight but does nothing much for the rest of the vehicle.

Composites are strong. Very strong, when pulled. They are weak when pushed or twisted.

That means laying up carbonfibre can result in a strong, durable and light part, if you take the effort to calculate the vectors the partis pulled in and lay the fibers in this direction. A 90 degree cross weave helps increase durability in most cases.

Using carbonfibre in non-structural parts like doors is a waste of effort and recourses. Better to use fiberglass there and have a good rollcage/SFC setup for the best effect in rigidity and weight reduction in F body cars.

F bodies offer a lot of other areas where lots of weight can be saved before going through such lengths however, and sacrificing creature comforts. For street driven cars I see only few areas where carbonfiber, basalt fibre and the like really offer a major benefit. In the corvette these materials are also mainly marketing items, giving the car an air of high tech, whereas all the tech is in other areas, less comprehensible for most (suspension geometry etc. Those areas are useless for marketing purposes. A carbonfiber roof sounds far more catchy in commercials, doesn't make the car drive better though).

There are two things that come to mind.

One is a relationship with a bi-polar persian girl from France back in 2005. That didn't last very long however. She talked a lot and I don't speak french. Would've been all good if she didn't keep asking whether or not I was still listening all the time.

Guest

Found out today she sold the car was awhile ago because it cost too much for parts maintinace since nothing was stock- oh well. its just a car. There will be others.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Ouch that blows man ... Sorry to hear.. You could always find a camaro and build it up like that one again.

Question: Would the LS1 V8 engine be as light as the V6 engine that was in your car?

itsMikey

would be pretty close id assume.

hellz_wings

iTrader: (2)

Just checked online and found that the LS1 weighs 430lbs, and the 2.8L V6 weighs 350lbs... Relocate the battery to the rear (50lbs) and add a tubular k-member (30lbs) and you'd be at the same weight as the V6 over the front. (not overall, but over the front... You could make up for total weight by trimming in other areas like aluminum bumpers, fiberglass hood, etc.)

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

wonder what lucky soul bought it, and if they know what they bought?

Guest

You have to remember the V6 is a shorter length engine. So all the weight is behind the front wheels. So no, the LS engines are not as light or agile. Yes you can reduce weight with lighter hoods, heads, battery location, aluminum front bumper etc, but I did some of that already with my V6 also.

The tubular kmember is not a favorable weight loss item because as I addressed in another thread "it hurts as it helps" inweight loss because longitudinally the wieht loss is good, but laterally the weight loss is bad in roll/antiroll.

The LS would have not only 80 lbs more, it is further forward in the engine bay and the Kmember weight reduction is lower loss were an upper roll weeight loss is advantageous for anti roll and weight distribution uponm all 4 tires laterally. THis may be hard for alot of people to understand but is a MAJOR keypoint in handling along with sprung to unsprung weight ratios.

So to conclude, even with an LS and tubular kmember, you still have more weight thats higher than the roll CG and more forward in the bias. A LS with kmember is not equal to a 60V6 motor. I had an Alum bumper I bought from BigDog Glen, Alum radiator, cut hood support (noone ever saw that my hood danced around a little because I cut out the underneath to fit the Edelbrock 3 pt STB with my custom aluminum plenum), combine that with my aluminum pullies, stainless headers, aluminum strut mounts, alum valve covers, mini starter,aluminum tierods, alum front hubs, deleted all the crap like windshield fluid resevoir, cruise contols, coolant overflow, and smaller battery and you stat seeing little weight losses around both the front bias AND mainly most of the extremities of the nose and upper portions of front roll weight.. Then additions of weight were placed more stratigically and sensibly with the additions of things behind the front wells or low in the bay with light weight materials except where critical. I was not **** about this, but did consider it with each mod to try and repostion or useslighter cost effective materials wwithout getting rediculous. Just put simple thought into eaxh mod and try to keep to this aganda if sensible. Most mods fall under this anyway, people just donpt tend to realise other inportant benefits of lightweight parts.

Then the addition of the heavier aftermarket things like SFC's were of course low and centered in between the wheels, the exhaust overall weight I redid to center, I added Dynomat to the cockpit and rear just to the rear tires to add sprung weight low and to ad in ride comfort and nosie since it was a daily driver, but removed carpet padding since the dynomat shielded heat and replaced with new lighter weight carpet and no padding and dropped the heavy front seats with lightweight Momo's.

If you ever race a car, Always, always, always roll down your windows. Why? It drops that heavey glass roll weight lower in cg....ahhh- another tip form uncle Dean (I am giving away all my secret little cheats that all add up. Knowledge is useful if you appliy it. Remeber, 10 little things that all seem pointless to shave off 0.1 seconds- all add up to 1 second. Even fuel load. I always ran with half tank exactly. I caviataed with less than 3/8's in there so I had an 1/8th tank to play with which lasts pretty good on a pathetic 2.8l engine.

Just remeber when you drop weight off a chassis, your sprung to unsprung weight goes down which = bad. You have to compensate with very lightweight exotic suspension parts to compensate. Rotation weight is major also, Its where I decided to spend $$$$ and I think its results spoke for themself.

Guest

Iep, I am sure she let it go for under 5k no doubt sice the bluebook probably said something like 2k.

The front brakes alone were worth that. $1100 seats (x2 of course) the driveshaft....ill stop there, There was over 35k in that car.

I would have given here 4k just to let me strip it and put some stock parts back in first then she could still sell it. Shows how stupid divorces are.

yep, someone got a steal. You can be gauranteed that she had no idea what she was selling. That paint job was rare, I think it will turn up somewhere.


I am working on trading something off and downsizing, I am hoping to have the money left over to get another third gen. I already have one in mind and yes its a V8 car. Just have to wait till something sells.

89rs454

I always thought this creates drag?

Sorry to hear about your loss..

Guest

Thank you.

No drag at low autox speeds. Roll weight is much more critical. Drag only comes into play I would say above 80 and for sure above 110 it get very nocible. I had a friend stick his stupid arm up out the Vette's t-tops at about 140 several years back and ended up with a good size bruise on his tricep- I was like....WTF was he thinking? I could see a hand testing the air, but je just flung his arm up out the top. I have also been over 150 on a bike (I help my best frined build a bike back in the early 90's, an 89 Suzuki GSZR 750 with about 100 lbs shaved off it and Vance and Hines completely worked the motor- were talking Rick put $$$$ into this thing) and I can tell you sitting up at 150 to slow down you had better have a good grip because the wind slows you down faster than the brakes could.

I nose would lift in 3rd at about 45 - 50 you could finally stab it and it would come back down in 5th at well over 120 with a threatening wheel skid like an airplane landing. I think about the one time I lifted it going uphill sideways and set it down jsut as I skipped gears and lifted it again- but as slightl sideways enough for the bars to trusts a full lock to lock and I damn near went down- what saved me was it lifting off again. Scaryiest memory I ever had on a bike.

paul_huryk

I'm going to disagree with you on this point...

No GM engine is short enough to completely fit behind the front axle center line, even the V6 - when you count front end accessories like the alternator, water pump, and pulleys.

I understand what you are saying about the weight loss on the lower extremity of a third gen front end, but I think that pulling out any weight to give it a more uniform 50:50 distribution (if you run the same tire size all around) will help to give more balanced handling.

What kind of wheels are you running (size and weight), BTW?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Only a couple inches ahead of the k. Close enough for me.

Guest

Paul I put factory '87 IROC's on it but all four where 'rears' which come in at 19lbs each. With metal valve stems attached, My buddy let me run them on his balancer and I trued them grinding metal off opposite of where I was to add lead to balance just the wheels only prior to tire installs.

IROC fronts are 21lbs. I used the 4 rears because they are light considering they are factory and had a great look being a full time daily driver. Keeping also the 245/50-16 tires kept weight down on each corner.
Where I spent my money and further weight reduction was :
Front- shaving my spindles, custom aluminum G-body hubs,aluminum brackets and calipers, aluminum hats and 2 piece SPR rotors drilled for lightness, aluminum tierods, Saved about 6 lbs of unsprung weight per side. Take any CCW's with larger diameters and tire width weights and they are heavier overall with the stock weight brake assemblies them my biog brake setup was. Also rotation weight was lower.

In the rear was the same brake wise with turned down moser axles that were also flange drilled for lightness. ALum diff cover, lightweight ring and pinion race gears, Auburn Pro posi, Carbon fiber driveshaft, chromemoly TQ arm and LCA's (tqarm shaved in diff mount plates for weight savings, LCARB's shaved cutting off unessasary bracketry, axle brace shaved. Total weight saved back here was quite a bit considering I added aftermarket adjustments which add weight. I focused on the necessary and everything else not used went byebye focusing on sprung to uinsprung weight ratios and also focusing on rotation mass. Nothing real rocket science, just attention to detail most do not consider- it all adds up and makes a difference.

I don;t care if someones 3rd gen is the same in scale weight at 3100 lbs, it comparison in how that weight is proportioned 1) sprung to unsprung, 2) bias, 3) roll weight, 4) rotation mass, and 5) polar weight prior to getting to factors like Roll center heights and roll axis placementt to those factors. Its how the weight moves about and were the weight is placed or reduced overall in the whole package. Somethings are compromises usually first based on budget, then on asthetics and personal desires.

Want an ugly rocketship that engineers stuck solely to this criteria and cared nothing about overall looks? go buy an ATOM is wht I like to tell people. Eorformance and looks combined sometimes and most often takes compromises- especuially on budgets.

87 player bird

The players cars out handeled the corvette when they were both new.

89rs454

dust3r

iTrader: (1)

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

lot of confused people here i guess

paul_huryk

Very nice - most people don't understand how important rotational weight is and how it affects performance. The problem is cost for our cars - I would love to have a 14lb CF wheels, but the price is astronomical. Then again you can go to a lighter weight flywheel, CF DS (like you have) and lower weight wheels and lighter brake rotors to work wonders.

Agreed, where weight is (and how much) make a huge difference to the handling of a car. I guess that is why the mid engine cars like the R8 have an automatic advantage due to the engine placement over say a Vette or 911. I never paid much attention to the sprung vs. unsprung factor as the f-body has so many factory compromises that it is off my radar - going to look into that concept a bit more. However, I am very aware of polar weight and the bias factors and their affect and think that GM's design has huge room for improvement with some good aftermarket parts.

Atom is an oddball - a true handler, but an aerodynamic mess - guess you can't have both.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Imho handling at its most basic is all about making the most of your tires. You want the most of the tire's contact patch at the ground at all times. The problem with this is that it is impossible, even for a corvette, an atom or even an f1. In my opnion, why sweat it too much when there is so much room to improve in sheer tire size and pure weight reduction? Sure you might not have the beautiful contact patch loading of a gt3 but you will spend a ton of money getting there if you try.
Conversely you can take my approach, correct basic defficiencies in the factory susp. (Which is actually pretty darned good to begin with) and stuff the biggest stickiest tires you can under the car - in my case 315 front 335 back hoosier r6s. Drop some weight and from there its just about tuning the balance. Get some neg camber, Lower the phb, shorten the wheel base, get the rear lcas right, dial in brake bias etc and your thirdgen will be insanely quick.
You really do not need to do much to these cars. Stock ctrl arms, k member, tq arm, sway bars - all of these parts work wonderfully unless you are chasing that last .1%. Even then I'm not sure anyone makes any parts that are that much of an improvement.

Guest

You start running your car above 50 mph on higher speed road courses other than the slow speed autox and time attack and you will 1) eat up those tires quickly, and 2) that chassis will be all over the place with suspension slop fighting those wide tires at the higher speed strains of braking and corner bobble.

You need to get that car out on California Speedway for a run on the 2.8 mile road course and see if you can beat my 2:07 laptime where I was on mear 8" wide street tires and a 135 rwhp. You would be surprised when you ge tthat thing up to speed how much slop you will have and how much brake trouble you would have expecially coming off the high speed bank onto the back striaght 30mph chicane down from 120+.

The 'best' of the CMC racecars (3rd gen Camaros) are only running about 12 seconds faster than me on full race tires and V8's stripped to a weight of 3000 lbs. THe vettes are running 20 seconds faster than my little V6.

edit- Correction- I ran a 2:09. The day prior to the CMC race I was speaking of back in about 2005. THe next day the CMC car field range race lap time bests from 1:57 to 2:11. I ran 2 seconds faster than the slowest full race CMC car on race tires vs my little full interior weight V6 on street tires. My suspension goodies are certainly doing something becasue I was on crappy street tires on a very large road course with a 123mph max speed for a V6.

My point? I am chasing alot more than that last .1% with all my suspension mods. You put a stock V6 on that track and I will bet big bucks I will beat it by over 15 seconds even if it had the same exact tires I had. Now put racing tires on it and I will still beat it by 12 seconds minimum. put all the suspension goodies under it? Then you have my times.

paul_huryk

Our cars definitely benefit from wider tires - as long as the suspension is up to it as Vetruck just said, the 275-40-17 size is probably the ideal in terms of width and ease of fitment...

Also as GM was chasing the last $ in regards to making terrible quality control arms, TQ arm, and overall chassis rigidity; improving those areas will help a lot too. I definitely noticed a small handling increase when I had my GW subframe connectors welded in.

It's not too hard to get rid of suspension slop and add a really awesome braking system to these cars, but the real killer on a road course is the 3500lb stock weight. Makes you chew up tires real quick and gives your brakes a workout (stock brakes won't cut it).

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Let's compare jerry's car to mine. Jerrys car is a work of art, he has god knows how much tig welded bracing, an ultra quick steering box, huge brakes, and a former professional race car driver at the wheel.
My car is supposedly sloppy with a 6 point, heim jointed rear susp, konis, and big big tires. I run 2 seconds faster than him. Why?
What's the big difference between these two cars?

S2000... way stiffer car than a third right? Way better steering, brakes, way more hp, narrower, shorter... shouldn't I be slower instead of 2 secs faster?

I don't know but I think focusing on tires, shocks, springs, and geometry seems to be working for me instead of powdercoated metal. Not to say it doesn't have its place, just that there's way too much emphasis placed on it.

Id be happy to see a third on 245s or 275s out run me but I don't see that happening.

Paul, you can fit 315s on all four corners without too much trouble. I ran a 245/275 victoracer combo before what I have now and though it was quick it is nothing like having a lot of tire.

Guest

Jerry runs 180 tw A traction street tires.

You run low cord quickly heated 40 tw C traction slicks

MAJOR difference in tire rubber and heat management as well as surface area. If your tires were the same size as Jerry's, you are still running C traction tires which pretty much means slicks where as Jerry runs grooved tires that work in rain with less rubber on the road. Its not just size, its softness, heat, and surface area.

I also did not know you were rodends in your rear suspension, big difference over stamped arms and panhard with rubber groment bushings. Stamped arms will work fine at lower speeds as long as the bushings are changed. Your cage is far better than SFC's, your car is also stripped of interior weight and such so is probably 100 lbs lighter than his also- maybe even 200.

I have always preached that R compound tires is good for at least 3 seconds on a 60 sec autox course in any car. I know tires, I ran R compounds for 6 1/2 years as well as various street performance tires and various full rae tires like our NASCAR Hoosiers and Goodyear synthetics.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

nice!

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

And that is exactly my point. Ppl are spending too much on powdercoated metal instead of the biggest, stickiest tires they can.

paul_huryk

Exactly - tire patch on the pavement is crucial. A 275 tire is 12.2% wider than a 245 one and that is going to translate into increased grip in the dry almost every single time.

But there is only so much tire you can fit on any car, which is why you need to cover everything and do everything as a system - chassis stiffness, control arms, shock valving, springs...

Guest

But I build my cars to handle there very best daily driving on street tires. I can see buying r compounds for a track car, but not a daily driver of street driven car- those tires would burn up on the freeway in about an hour on a 90* day...besides not being DOT rated tread.

slow305

iTrader: (2)

Wrong. Autocross eats tires more than a road course. Typical 10-15 turns on a road course will not go through tires as much as an autocross.

I wish I lived in California.

"Only" 12 seconds? LOL. 12 seconds is gigantic. The other car is eating your lunch at every single corner. Every single straight.

Link to the the times and results of all your races?

Your point, as always, is that you will always skew facts so that your little V6 is always somehow the better choice than anything on the planet.

How can you get a thirdgen to handle like a Corvette? Sell the thirdgen and buy a Corvette.

Pat

slow305

iTrader: (2)

P.S. Read this thread:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...ing-vs-v8.html

Pat

89rs454

Thirdgen looks way better then a Corvette, it just has the wrong image. And with a few mods here and there it can handle as good as a 90s model Corvette, but not newer without the right driver imo.