JamesC

iTrader: (5)

The first is BRACE, Fdr to Upr Cowl, a piece found on the pass side and which has no sister piece on the driver's side (pic #1). Purpose? Amuse and Confuse.

The second is BRACE, Whl Hse Pnl reinf, a piece found on the pass side and which has no sister piece on the driver's side (pic #2). Purpose?

The third is BRACE, F/End Upr Structure, a stamped piece found on the driver's side, which appears to support the vapor canister tray, and which has no sister piece on the pass side. A bolt passes through the tray and ties into the fourth brace (pic #3).

JamesC

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

The fourth is BRACE, Lwr Structure, a piece found on the driver's side and which has no sister piece on the pass side. Purpose?

JamesC

camaronewbie

I've often wondered about these myself. But I've never seen it written anywhere that GM engineers were rocket scientists either, so I gave up trying to second guess their 'wisdom'.

91 1LE

iTrader: (1)

I just removed all of mine and welded up all the holes. I have SFC's, a tubular K-member, and a wonderbar for stiffness. We'll see what happens. I don't think they do much as they are small diameter and are installed with small bolts.

Dialed_In

iTrader: (3)

LOL, great post.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

so we should get rid of this junk and save the 10lbs?

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Getting rid of this stuff is not a good idea if you really do value rigidity. The stuff GM put on these cars is more effective than half the aftermarket crap they sell for these cars. It's not hard to understand why most of these braces are there if you think about the forces being imparted to those areas. Consider that the car is not symmetrical from one side to the other and hence not equally stiff from one side to the other.

Part of the misunderstanding seems to come from the idea that a brace needs to be stiff in all directions to be effective. The truth is that these rods are quite effective when the loading is axial, especially in tension. Think suspension bridge. Although in the case of these particular braces pictured, they most likely see compression more than tension.

BTW the brace on the driver's side frame rail? That's to help prevent the steering box from flexing that area.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

ok gotcha... so your saying we should ditch this crap and save the 10 lbs

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

A part of what 'amuses and confuses' is that apparently not all thirdgen cars were equipped with the braces.

JamesC

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I parted a 92 GTA that had 2 of those little braces from top-mid strut tower to frame rail. 1 on each side Dr and Pass
The last one you posted is to help support the battery weight.. on firebirds. and it strenthens the frame for the steering box.
And I hear it (along with the 2 triangle K-member braces) did help the steering box frame rail strength on cars with 16" wheels
The other 2 have me at a loss, the one over the AC box from hood hinge base to firewall side who knows? All of my cars have it.

FlippindaBird

iTrader: (10)

yeah im gonna check and see if mine has any of those... then ill scrap 'em!

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Not on the Camaro's driver's side.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Apparently, that's what the k-member braces were for as well; however, not all cars were so equipped (yes, I'm still amused and confused ).

From Spohn: Not all Thirdgen F-Body Camaro and Firebird cars were factory equipped with triangular braces on each side of the front of the k-member to reinforce the front subframe at the steering box mount. These braces reduce flex and cracking of the front subframe and are a recommended addition for any street driven car.

I've 'read' that some Camaros weren't equipped, that some were equipped with one, some with two.

JamesC

naf

iTrader: (7)

My 84 Berli did not have these triangular braces for the K-Member. John has also confirmed that the early Berlis did not come so equipped. The holes were drilled and tapped and they were a simple bolt-on after a trip to the yard.

sargenewk17

iTrader: (2)

I believe earlier camaros don't have the triangular braces and later ones do. I feel like the cutoff is 86-87 (86 cars do not have the braces and 87's do) but I'm not positive that's true. I know my 92 RS had them but I had to take them off to fit the LS2 alternator and A/C compressor. And I do not have that cowl brace for sure. Very strange!

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

My 85 has them.

JamesC

dead sailor

My 82 also had the two k member braces, and just about every other one posted.

sargenewk17

iTrader: (2)

haha, well then I've got nothing useful to contribute!

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

In the book "Camaro: The third generation" the engineers who designed the thirdgen stated that this brace was added because the firewall on that side of the car is not as stiff as the drivers side. IIRC something about there being holes on that side of the firewall but I am guessing they were paraphrased. The shape of that area probably has more to do with it.
Jacking and supporting the car in different areas I can definitely tell that the brace is doing some work as evinced by the creaking coming from the fastened ends.

BTW in the above book you can see pictures of various other braces that GM experimented with but never put into production. Fabricating these might be of some value. I'm guessing they all worked to some degree, just some were more cost effective than others. One that piqued my interest was a set of braces from the center of the bottom of the k member going forward, presumably to the rad support area? I am only assuming that is where the other end attached because iirc the picture only shows one end. These were intriguing to me because some G bodies received a very similar set of braces. So there must be some rationale behind them. I haven't looked at things enough to have drawn any conclusions yet.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Could very well be. If that were the case, however, why wouldn't all cars be equipped--the same question arises with other braces which are missing in some cars/models.

JamesC

naf

iTrader: (7)

Softer suspensions didn't need as much bracing.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

The thought had crossed my mind. Verifying the idea would be interesting (the idea certainly makes more sense than GM's ***** nilly throwing parts at cars).

JamesC

naf

iTrader: (7)

Much like the wonderbar only being installed on IROCs. The stickier tires and firmer suspension could be expected to place more stress on the chassis vs. my 84 berli with no rear sway bar and 14" wheels.

The passenger side strut tower braces were a Z28 only thing, at least up to 87. I've not seen these braces on any Pontiacs though (except the ones I installed on my 85 TA).

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

As I understand it, the Wonderbar was originally used on IROC's with their 16-inch wheels--more or less as a Band Aid--to prevent possible stress/cracking issues in the steering box area. If that's true, reason would question why Birds with 16's weren't so equipped. Softer springs? Tires?

For what it's worth:

Brace, Whl Hse Pnl reinf-RH (Z28), is listed 82-91 in my Parts and Illustration CD. Though the Z28 business is only listed 82-86, the part number is the same for all years, 14045394.

JamesC

LostX

iTrader: (1)

none of those exist on mine

naf

iTrader: (7)

And my 84 Berli conveniently came with a welded frame rail where it had been cracked in the past about a half a foot behind the steering box.

TreeFiddy

They don't exist on mine either. Though my engine had been swapped by the time it came into my hands, a lot of little stuff like this was missing. Great thread for an unusual subject - I wasn't even aware of these braces. Will look at mine tomorrow to see is the mount holes are there. Maybe they were to silence various little creaks and rattles, I have enough of those!

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Ouch!

JamesC

TreeFiddy

Heh - mine conveniently came with a cracked frame rail in the same spot, that I only discovered about a month after I bought it.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Naf and Tree,

Since your cars experienced cracking, were they equipped with the piece in pic four (and the K-member brace, Tree)?

JamesC

TreeFiddy

I don't believe so, but I will take a look out of curiousity. However, mine is a RHD mirror conversion, so if there was no sister brace on the other side, that would be a no.

TreeFiddy

Are you referring to the two triangular ones mentioned earlier - once again I don't think so - got a pic? If I'm missing all this bracing, might explain a few things!

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

This will provide an idea:

http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...er-Braces.html

JamesC

TreeFiddy

Ok, checked it out today. Fwiw I've got none of the braces mentioned in the thread, and had a badly cracked chassis rail on the Aussie (your passenger) side - take from this what you will. A shop weld job and a homemade wonderbar later, permanent fix.

ATX-Iroc

Those braces do seem week and flimsy but the whole car is. On the brace that goes from cowl to fender I can see scratches on the top of the wheel well from the tip of the bolt that holds the brace on. there is about a centimeter gap between the tip of the bolt and the surface it scratched. To me that shows the car flexes like crazy and these wimpy braces actually do try to hold it together.

MY87LT

iTrader: (2)

Good info.

evilemokid94

iTrader: (6)

did you ever find out if these are worth it? i have a chance to buy the one that goes from the hood hinge to the cowl and another that goes from the passenger strut tower to the frame rail. are they worth it?

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Worth? Next to nothing dollar-wise.

Are they worth it? GM designed them for a purpose, and GM wouldn't spend a cent without reason. You might reread Pablos' posts.

JamesC

572_Rat

Mine is a 86, I have all the braces James talks about as well as the triangle K member braces

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

My 92 RS did NOT have either of those passenger side braces. It also had the crappy cruising suspension. Could be some merit to that line of thought. But that fender-cowl brace goes through the hole my map sensor was in - did they run the brace AND the MAP sensor through that same hole?

It does have the K-member braces, though.

This is from Camaro: The Third Generation, but it only talks about the development of the 82 model, and it's the Dec 81 edition, so you'll have to extrapolate on your own how it applies to later models:

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

I'm uncertain what 'hole' you're referring to. The fender/cowl brace is simply bolted to both. Might check the first pic in post #1.

JamesC

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

yes, the map sensor is bolted to the cowl through that same hole. Im not sure how wise it would be to bolt the brace and the map sensor to the same bolt... but Im sure it could be done. I just dont know if GM would have done it.

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Oh, bolt hole!

JamesC

KiLLJ0Y

iTrader: (1)

There is a hypothisis in the community that the "wonder bar" was infact called a "wander bar", reason being attached to the steering box and helping to prevent "wandering" in the steering due to the 2 subframes able to twist the body. It is suggested that the term was/has simply been mispelled to "wonder" through mistranslation.

I can see this as being quite a reasonable suggestion, though no hard proof of evidence has come forth

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

In the front suspension (diagram) portion of my 82-91 Parts & Illustration Cat., it's clearly labeled "Wonderbar". The description is Brace, Upr Structure 14042019.

JamesC

evilemokid94

iTrader: (6)

So those two braces aren't even worth $6? Do they help support anything at all?

naf

iTrader: (7)

Maybe for six dollars. I'm sure they do 'something'.

The cowl brace attaches to the same point that the Baro sensor is installed on carbed cars. The other end actually attaches to the hood hinge. I've put one on both my 87 and 85 TA (I've only seen them on Z28s never on Pontiacs).

Oh, my Berli did not have the inner fender brace, either side. I'll be installing them as I rebuild it, though. Random progress pic:

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Don't recall anything ever being there on my car (LG4 originally). However, it has been awhile since the engine swap, so my memory could be faulty.

JamesC

naf

iTrader: (7)

my 87 with the brace

-AO-

All 86-92 cars were factory equipped with a triangular brace on each side of the front of the k-member to reinforce the front subframe at the steering box mount. These braces reduce flex and cracking of the front subframe. They were options on 82-85 cars.