luke4907

iTrader: (5)

I'm curious if anyone is familiar with the performance of these items:

heavy duty setup xtra duty setup

Also, I'm just wondering are spherical rod ends really that loud and untolerable? Thanks for any opinions.

scorchmaster

iTrader: (6)

I'm using hotchkis lower control arms and panhard rod with poly bushings. Went with those because spherical one's make this like clunking and chuckling sound, it can get very annoying. You should just go poly unless your making this into a drag car.

Also, I've never seen that specific brand before.

luke4907

iTrader: (5)

thanks for the opinion... I'll have to lookout for a poly bushing set of panhard rod and LCAs.

Dustin Mustangs

iTrader: (1)

You've never seen that brand before because there isn't a brand. It looks like some guy is making these out of his garage or something. My honest opinion is that they look like junk. Why make them out of aluminum? The point of replacing the stock pieces isn't to save weight, it's to improve the structural rigidity back there. Take a look around at the "Brands" that sell this type of product with their name behind it...you're not gonna find one that makes these parts out of aluminum. Can you hear the red flag flappin' in the wind?? Scorch also made a good point concerning the spherical connections on both ends.

Do yourself a favor, shop here for suspension goodies. You won't regret it.

scorchmaster

iTrader: (6)

Good call, didn't see they were made out of aluminum to begin with, just looked for the brand and at the ends.

Dustin makes a very good point. Don't go with this guys stuff, even if he has poly bushing ones, you won't be happy with it.

MrDude_1

bah.

if you want to go that route, get them from coleman racing... cheaper.....


plus you know you have quality rod ends.

laiky

some one on this board detailed how to buil your own alluminum control arms, i plan on doing the exact same thing. In my Opinion alluminum makes plenty sense and is plenty strong. It is lighter, and stiffer given the wall thickness. Coleman racing sells alluminum tubes threaded for 3/4 with wrench flats and reverse threads on one side.

scorchmaster

iTrader: (6)

actually aluminum is quite a bit weaker, the only way to compensate for that is to increase the wall thickness. As to how much weight you're saving, what like 1 pound?

91Z28-350

http://www.jonaadland.com/Z28/Mods/L...minumLCAs.html

The thing to worry about is the threaded portion of the aluminum for thread pull out. I feel more comfortable with over-engineered CM or mild steel than with aluminum just because of the strength of the threads.

laiky

a thin walled chromoly or steel ca needs a threaded insert welded into each end, compare the strength of that with over a full inch of 3/4 thread in heat treated alluminum. I was sceptical too, but the more i think about it i like the idea. Mind you i do not think that there is anything wrong with either alluminum or steel but i can build double heim jointed alluminum ca'sfor about 150 bucks vs 245 for mild steel.

luke4907

iTrader: (5)

1st, I appreciate the input from everyone. 2nd, I thought the strength was mostly in the design, not the material (stock LCAs vs tubular or boxed)? And if the weight savings of aluminum don't offset the strength of steel, then why do companies make aluminum roller rockers? I know it's a completely different part, but those have to be built to withstand quite a bit of pressure and stress as well.

BTW I don't think I'm gonna go with this guy's stuff, but I'm just looking for something cost-effective, not necessarily the best performance or most popular brand, as in spohn's case (no offense, Mr. Spohn). Any recommendations are appreciated (even if you tell me to stfu and go buy Spohn's stuff hehe)

laiky

if your interested, i have a couple herb adams/moroso PHB's that i'll sell for a good price. They are steel with heim joints on both ends.

Dustin Mustangs

iTrader: (1)

Weight is VERY important as far as a valvetrain is concerned for many different reasons. This is why it pays for certain combos to sacrifice strength in this area to loose a few GRAMS. If you look into this you'll find that aluminum rockers don't last to long if subjected to any type of abuse and that most will tell you to avoid them on a car that gets driven on a regular basis.

Now, with your rear suspension, the situation is totally different. A few grams saved here makes NO difference with how the car will perform. To improve back here you need to make your parts stronger (stop them from distorting under load) and/or move your instant center to a better position (improving your weight transfer). If you don't know what instant center is do some searching/reading on this before you buy any suspension components.

Also, some have mentioned that an aluminum part can be as strong as a steel one given it has more material, I concur. However, I feel aluminums "ductility" needs to be considered in a situation like this. Ductility is a measure of how much a material can deform before it fails. So say you have a piece of steel and a piece of aluminum that both have the same 'tensile' strength, say 5k lbs. The aluminum piece will have deformed signifcantly before failing (it will yeild) as compared to the steel (it will fracture).

Now, what are you trying to accomplish with these new parts again?? If you don't know, then you don't need them; spend your money on something else.

laiky

I disagree on the issue of weight, the control arms are unsprung weight. From a drag only perspective strength rules but for everything else weight pays big dividends. Many aftermarket (edelbrock) rear control arms weigh much more than stock and although stiffer and stronger will probably hurt handling more than help.

scorchmaster

iTrader: (6)

Just think about this. When floor your car, there is a lot of force being pushed through the drive train. When your wheels start to spin and gain traction, the force transferred throughout your car, first hitting your suspension items. If your items are weak and flex very easily, they will absorb this force and prevent it from ever being put onto the pavement. So stiffer lower control arms, panhard rod, torque arms whatever will NEVER hurt your handling, they will significantly improve it instead. All metals distort in some form or another, you will never fully prevent this distortion but you can minimize it, but the only way to do that is by getting more rigid parts. As for the weight, it will not hurt anything. As Dustin said, weight matters in certain aspects of a car, like the valve train or drive train. With suspension, another pound or two won't hurt anything. In fact, it will put those 2 pounds in the back of the car and will help the weight transfer of your car. Granted it is only 2 pounds and won't do much, but the point still stands. Stiffer suspension will help your car.

luke4907

iTrader: (5)

I wouldn't necessarily say that the extra weight in the back would hurt handling. The way I see it, people swap aluminum driveshafts in place of steel ones, which only makes a weight savings of about 9lbs, but is still strong enough to handle an engine putting out several hundred ft/lbs of torque. I know that steel driveshafts start to warp around 140mph, while the aluminum driveshafts are much more stable under high mph. That makes me think that you can design an aluminum part to be as rigid or moreso than a steel couterpart. I don't see anyone swapping their aluminum driveshafts for steel ones.

I know these are two different parts with different duties and different requirements. Aluminum driveshafts are designed with a larger diameter to spread torque across a greater area and I just think the same must be able to be done with suspension parts. I know it may be easier to bend an aluminum pole in the center, but try crushing it end to end (as with a panhard bar or LCAs) and I think you won't have much success.

scorchmaster

iTrader: (6)

First off, a driveshaft is is part of the drivetrain. By shedding pounds on rotating or moving assemblies is much different then just normal weight. By shedding rotating mass, it doesn't take as much energy to start or keep it spinning thus increasing how quickly the engine will rev up. Two completely different things, aluminum driveshaft will give you much more than aluminum lower control arms......

You don't necessarily need to crush aluminum lower control arms either, as stated before, they will distort and that's what you're trying to prevent. Also, it's not about crushing the entire thing, what about the threads on the inside of the aluminum?? Because aluminum is so much weaker than steel, the threads could be ripped out MUCH easier. Try driving around without a lower control arm on one side, fun ****.

There's no point to losing a pound off of suspension parts, so why not just go with the steel and be sure that it'll last??? This being said, there is really no point to this thread, because who cares about a pound! Care about strength and how rigid it is.

laiky

as i implied earlier, you are looking at this from a drag racing perspective only. weight does matter in a suspension, specifically unsprung weight, to say it doesn't means that you really need to go back to the books. It is less of a problem for a drag car accellerating over smooth pavement. when it comes to handling especially over bumpy roads it matters greatly. The alluminum LCA's detailed in the attached web site are very strong, they are heat treated alloy 6061 according to the post. Look up in the sky 6061 is probably the most commonly used alloy in aviation. Strength and fatigue life are most critical in those applications. Many new cars have alluminum suspension components, corvette for instance. All the control arms are alluminum


If you make say 400lbs of torque, with a 3.27 first gear and 4.11 rear with a 24 inch tall tire, assuming enough traction you can only generate 5375 lbs of forward thrust at the wheels. considering you have 2 LCA's each rated for 18000 lbs of compression you have roughly 6-7 times the necessary strength you need to deal with accelleration forces.

now taking distortion into consideration, consider that with heim joints on both ends there is NO torsional or bending loads applied to the arms. It is strictly tension and compression your dealing with.

There is no downside to the alluminum arms in this case, they are lighter and cheaper than steel.

Dustin Mustangs

iTrader: (1)

Then why is the only source for them a random guy on ebay with some hacksaw skills?

laiky

I was reffering to the ones made in the web page attached to this post. Don't know, perception maybe? or because the parts are available to anyone? I don't know that i would use alluminum with poly bushings due to the twisting from the bushings binding but i will be fitting my car with a set of the dual heim jointed ones in the spring. If they fail i will be sure to warn everyone on this bored.

scorchmaster

iTrader: (6)

With unsprung weight any benefit from the weight reduction towards increased MPH or reduced ET will be exactly the same as if the weight were removed from the chassis. So in that aspect of handling it makes 0 differenece. Unsprung weight reduction is almost entirely limited to un-even surfaces, or conditions where the attitude of the vehicle changes, besides for these conditions, it doesn't do much. Plus whenever you lower the sprung weight lighter springs are needed to maintain traction and control with these lighter unsprung components. Everything works with each other. YES reducing unsprung weight helps if you're roadracing or offroading. However, lower control arms arent considered all unsprung weight. Unsprung weight refers to rear axle housing and stuff like that, lower control arms are more of a hybrid being both unsprung and srpung weight, there would be little to 0 advantage to using aluminum control arms.

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

He's not the ONLY one.I got mine from SLR(slot car racing) on ebay almost 2 years ago.I drive my car EVERY day to work around 26 miles round way.Mine are still going on the original heims,which i believe are QAL items.No clunking sounds or otherwise,but a can hear/feel the road iregularities more than with polys.They are very light (3lbs each on the LCAs,5 for the panhard).They are machined from a solid bar of 6061-T6511.Which is stronger & lighter that steel..As for wear the way i see it.There are thousands of C4 vettes out there(especially the 84s).That are still going on the original alum suspensions items.Thats over 20 YEARS on some.How often do you think those Fail.The vette items are forged aluminum pieces,no 6061 type stuff like these aftermarket aircraft grade LCAs.etc.Yet they are still holding up after 20 some years.The aftermarket stuff should last as long,minus the heims being replaced here & there.

laiky

typically unsprung weight of a component like a control arm is 50% of the actual weight. I am not interested in the benefits for drag racing.

"So in that aspect of handling it makes 0 differenece. Unsprung weight reduction is almost entirely limited to un-even surfaces, or conditions where the attitude of the vehicle changes, besides for these conditions, it doesn't do much."

That would be any condition where your not traveling at a steady speed! It in fact does alot to reduce unsprung weight, thats why we buy light weight wheels, tubular control arms, alluminum calipers, coilovers, independent rear suspensions, alluminum centersections etc. In this case its only a few pounds but thats a few pounds less than a few pounds more.

Lighter springs are not needed when you reduce unsprung weight, having less unsprung weight allows you to run lighter springs and dampers for better suspension compliance.

Once again there is no downside, less weight, and less money.

Hugger1974

The first thing I see is cheap noisy rod ends

Dustin Mustangs

iTrader: (1)

OK, that makes two random hacks on ebay then. All kidding aside, I don't really think it makes much of a difference. And who ever told you heat treated and aged 6061 is stronger than "steel" needs to check again. Regardless, the parts linked are not tempered and there's really no way to prove yours were if you bought them off ebay. Just for the record, I am not theorizing these aluminum suspension parts (oem and other) will completely fail if used. Actually, other than stripping the threads I think it'd be quite unlikely. I am saying their shape will distort (prob more than stock) under load because of how ductile aluminum is. And I am also saying that preventing this distortion under load is what most people would be trying to accomplish by replacing the stockers. I wonder how much of a weight savings is possible anyway? Did you happen to weigh your stockers too??

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

I dont care about that link,but SLR is no hack.I never said they were tempered either,& just because steel is heavier than alum doesnt make it stronger.There are different grades of steel just like alum.No car manufacturer uses the strongest.They will use the cheapest steel they can get away with to do the job.Just like the STEEL unibody flexs & twist over time & weakens.Same thing happens with the LCAs,etc.The grade of aluminum used with Slot Car Racing is higher that the grade of steel used by GM for the LCAs.Thats why its stronger.As for age .What i meant by that is if the part hasnt failed in ALL those years its been on the road & its not as high a grade as the 6061 aluminum used by the aftermarket.Then why would the aftermarket fail any sooner(all things being equal).Regardless of AGE.If the alumnum in the factory cars can last 20+ years.Then the aftermarket should last as long too.SOme of you guys are making it sound like its going to fail or break in a couple of years the way your talking.

scorchmaster

iTrader: (6)

No one's really talking that way, just saying it's not as effectient. Besides, steel's deflection is seriously more than 50% greater than aluminums. Yes they will distort, but at a much higher load than aluminum. Aluminum needs to be more than 1.5 times the size of steel to accomplish the same job, if even.

As for saying the aluminum is better than what GM uses.... Who cares, that's why you buy aftermarket to get better parts then what GM's crap shack throws out.

Those factory aluminum suspension parts last because they use integrated bushings inside of the piece it'self, they don't thread in some spherical rod ends. That is the weak point. No matter how thick of aluminum you use for your lower control arms, there's still going to be the same amount of thread holding the end in. Have you ever bolted up aluminum heads to an engine, you use less torque to bolt them in because it's easier to strip the threads out. Same case here. Too much energy running through those rod ends for too long and they will give way. That's why the factory parts are lasting 20 years and these simply won't.

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

...........Just buy what suits your needs & be done with it.Thats all that matters in the end........Done

scorchmaster

iTrader: (6)

Not if its a higher grade material:
look at the 6061 heat treated aluminum, is this considered a higher grade to you?? because it still is 50% weaker than steel, check out the site listed before, it says the tensile strength in it.

Arent these cosidered aftermarket:
Last time I checked GM made stock lca and panhard...doesn't seem too aftermarket to me.

Look at how thin the arm is right in front of the bushing.that is its weak spot:
Weak spot of the application? Yes, but comparatively to the spherical rod ends it'll look like a ***. The energy would be displaced equally around it and up through the rest of the piece, while part of it is absorbed by the poly or rubber bushing. That's the glorious thing about an arch shape, it dispenses energy around itself in an equal manner and holds itself in place when given a load bearing. Also, you said it yourself, they last for 20 years, arches work, spherical rod ends won't

laiky

If you search these boards you will find failed Panhard bars with poly bushings that have distorted bushing cups, you will also find broken welds. So that begs the question? Is a full inch of 3/4 inch thread engagement too weak to handle the loads seen by LCA's, or is that thread engagement stronger than the welds on a threaded insert in a thin wall steel tube? The rods ends are a hell of a lot stronger than a thin metal shell, but what about that thin walled steel tubing where it is welded? Regardless, the threads have plenty of strength. Every argument you have made had been refuted, now your grasping. I was scheptical too at first, but all things considered, Alluminum is fine. You should do what makes you comfortable, and get what you want, thats what i'm doing.

RaMaiRGoD69

For good cheap Panhard bar and LCAs try slotcarracing.com

Dustin Mustangs

iTrader: (1)

I never seriously said it was (that's what the all kidding aside comment was all about). I think you need to re-read my post on a number of things actually.


Umm, yeah you did. Here is what you said:

Do you know what the T651 is there for? Doesn't sound like it.


I never said it did, that's pretty ignorant logic. All things being equal (ie tempered vs. tempered or not), steel is stronger than aluminum. Go buy a book and look this up if you don't believe me.


I NEVER said anything about the parts actually breaking. Again, did you even read my post? I thought I was clear, but here is what I said again:


This post is going down in flames, I think I'll abandon ship before things get any uglier!

scorchmaster

iTrader: (6)

If you ever read what you type, the only 'refuting' you have been doing is with theoretically based information that seemed convenient in you mind to work out the way you wanted it too. You have given no facts or figures at all, just stated, "Yeah, they'll work, yeah they're strong enough, no your wrong" What ever you stated has no precedence at all.

This is the last post for me on this thread, it's wasting too much time and going no where.

Guess it comes down to, whatever you want to make your suspension items out of go right ahead, just be prepared to reap the whirlwinds.

laiky

Well your right on one thing, this has become a waste of time. You have not made a single valid argument against alluminum. You have mearly stated YOUR opinion, not fact.

laiky

I will be using alluminum, if i experience a failure or problem i will be sure to post it. Until then have fun.

luke4907

iTrader: (5)

this has become such a useless thread, hope it doesn't reflect on me on these boards haha

drain89

iTrader: (10)

Ground Control has offered tubular aluminum lca's for some time. They have rod ends, and are generally used by road racers.
If they are designed right (thick walled, with heat treated threads) and of the proper grade of AL....I don't see a problem with them.
Metco has offered billet aluminum LCA's for some time also. They have a poly bushing. More of an eye candy thing if you ask me.

I don't think I'd use an aluminum panhard rod though. I know ground control didn't recommend one. They only offer a CM one...which I have. It's a smaller diameter than spohns and is strong, but very lightweight.