customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

i forgot to mention that scat cranks (like my 383 crank) come with aero-wing counterweights. alot of engine builders used to have to grind down the counterweights to put a pointy edge on the counterweights, so as the crank spun in the engine instead of it slapping against the oil in the pan it would cut through it, this results in less parasitic loss, reduced windage and it frees up a good bit of hp. eagle cranks dnt have that either.

86White_T/A305

Im aware that some not going forged has it limits and some people have had issues with eagle kits.From what Ive found with looking into this was that alot of engine builders were not re-checking the parts prior to install and tolerences could have been fixed or the kit returned if needed.My engine builder has told me that alot of people blame the parts not knowing alot of it is lack of prep work from local shops aswell and he assures me that for what I will be using the motor for and the power level it will be is fine for that cast kits and a light shot.With proper maintenence it would last a long time.He does check each kit prior to install and offer warranty with the parts and his labor.H did suggest if I wanted to eventually go either boosted or higher shot of nitrous that I should get forged internals but I dont have plans for that anytime soon nor are the funds available to support it.I do appreciate the concern and advice but for my application I feel I wont be abusing the limits of what I have especially considering how much i dont drive the car aswell.

danziger

I've built two 383s with Eagle cranks without issue, but have heard of some QC issues early on...not so much lately.

I'd also say that nitrous gets a bad rap more from poor installs/greedy newbies than being inherently dangerous for your engine. For a track car, I'd say nitrous is a no-brainer...cheap and effective.

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

im not saying that all eagle kits are bad but this is something to be aware of. ive heard almost nothing bad about the eagle forged cranks.

nitrous is great if your on a budget ( i used the word budget loosely here and ill explain in a bit) but its really no fun unless your at the track... not safe to run around on the street with a hooked up bottle nor is there anywhere to run nitrous on the street. and who likes to run around with less power anyway? nitrous is like premature ejaculation. why spend 700- 1000$ on a nitrous kit when u can run a remote mount turbo for almost the same price and u have have unlimited power?

budget is nitrous kit for 700$ then u throw 40-60$ for every bottle fill that might last u 3 runs max and then ur out of the race. not to mention a bottle heater ( i would always run a heater and consider them essential) these parts add up, and after a couple bottle fills the nitrous really isnt a budget part. nitrous also hits the rotating assembly much harder than a boosted application. boost comes on slow and isnt really a HIT like nitrous, same idea as auto trans vs manual trans. a auto trans is much nicer to rear end/gears compared to a manual which HITS/SHOCKS the drivetrain when the clutch grabs.

now cast cranks are great for street vehicles. im running my scat cast crank bc i thought i was going to make less than 550hp, which i am, should be pushing close to 480hp NA... but im greedy and i want boost, something small like 5-7psi... which should give me 600-650 crank hp which is nice ive been told that its all in the tune and that my cast crank should be ok. point being that theyve seen forged cranks fail on medium HP cars early on and theve seen cast cranks live fine with 700hp! its all a game of luck, but its all in how u set the engine up and ward off detonation etc. not to mention most ppl are running 2bolt or 4 bolt mains, a 2bolt main is fine for anything less than 6000rpms then the mains start to walk, 4bolts are alittle better but GM wasnt "thinking" and put the outer bolts into the weakest part of the block (not alot of material there), so are 4bolts really that much better than 2bolts? id say they could be but why waste your time with a 4bolt when u can pick up a 2bolt and splay the mains! which is the best/strongest or just run an aftermarket block.

point im trying to make is that if i push 650hp with a cast crank im beyond its rated power limits... but then again so is my 2bolt main block! so why throw a forged crank in there when the block will give out before the crank does. cast cranks are stronger than u think, how many LS1s are running 500rwhp on stock LS1 rotating assemblies with 11psi turbos/superchargers? alot and they run hyper pistons too! i wouldnt run a forged crank unless im running above 6000rpms and ive got a splayed mains block. otherwise the blocks the weak point

86White_T/A305

this is why i didnt go forged because for my budget build and how little i plan on spinning upto or past 6000rpms i dont think im stressing the crank.i would be more worried if i add a supercharger and pump 7lbs of boost on it that the rotating kit isnt properly matched for.

this is a mostly street/weekend cruiser that if prompted will stomp most cars in my area and visit the track here and there.

danziger

Heh. I agree with most everything you posted, so great minds must think alike!

I've used both a cast Eagle (mild L98-based 383) and a forged Eagle (stout LS1-based 382) and didn't have a problem. I agree that a forged crank is overkill on most street builds, but if it makes people feel good, who am I to argue.

IMO, nitrous is cheap fun. If you shop around, you can get a reputable dry-kit for $350 and I got my fully-loaded, never unwrapped TNT wet-kit for $500. You can do the install in an afternoon (including colder plugs) and could probably run up to a 100shot without even a tune. Does filling/running out of nitrous suck? Yep. Is it harder on the driveline? Sure. But if you are smart, you can have a lot of fun for a small initial outlay.
Unfortunately, most people aren't smart and do 1/2assed installs, or don't use a window-switch or FPSS, or try and spray a untuned 200shot on a stock engine. That's where nitrous gets its reputation...

Anyways...totally agree and nice "chatting" with you. B

86White_T/A305

Just for an update.

The motor is in and I got it to fire up and idle.But had to quickly shut it down because my mechanic friend said it sounds like the bottom end is making noise(I was sitting inside and its running open headers).I had it running for about 2 mins just to set timing around 9 degrees.During that time the car is also getting a code 43.

From what Ive read on the forums this means I have either a bad knock sensor or the wire is broken somewhere.. or the bottom end is indeed knocking and the sensor is working.The timing wouldnt stay steady either but I do need a proper tune for the car aswell.

take a listen and tell me what you guys think and how should I go about fixing the code 43?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eI4f69rDz8

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

umm sry to be the bearer of bad news but... thats definitly a knock. are u sure that everything was clearanced for the stroker? i had to clearance my rods for the XFI 280 cam extensively. i also knotched the block for the rods but i had clearance to begin with.


its hard to say wat kind of knock that is... if could be something like rod knock, rod/cam contact, to something as little as the engine knocking to something on the car when the engine is vibrating at idle. quick test would be to rev the engine a tiny bit and see if the knock goes faster or goes away. if the knock is steady and increases as the engine is reved then u got knock some where. its hard to tell in videos but dnt run it too much if u can with the knock.

also check clearances around the engine, usually ppl get knock from the ypipe hitting the oil pan or something but ur running open headers.. just check to see that the primaries arent hitting the kmemeber etc.

EDIT: had my dad watch the vid... hes build a bunch of engines. says it could be a bad lifter. i would pull the intake prob and yank the lifters, check for bent pushrods etc. i personally dnt think a bad lifter would be that loud but your exhaust isnt helping

firedawg225

Yeah check your bottom end clearances. Rods to cam is what i had to fix. had to take a little material off the rods

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

im gona go with the rods contacting the cam... i gave myself .052" clearance on the rods to cam and it wasnt enough. spinning at 5500 the rods stretched enough to contact the cam lob on the #5 cylinder. of course I mistakenly reversed the capscrews on the rods so the unclearanced capscrew/bolt was on the cam lobe side and i had like 25 grove marks on the cam lobe from the capscrew real close together like within 1/2" of the lobe.

if u didnt clearance anything im giving u a 85% chance that ur rods contacted the cam. im not sure about eagle rods but the scat 4340 forged stock replacement rods with capscrews are profiled alittle more than stock rods for stroker applications... its not much more than stock but in that area even a small amount makes a huge diff. even with the profiling the rods wouldnt clear the XFI cam, not to mention they use capscrew bolts and not rod bolts with nuts so theres more clearance there as well.

86White_T/A305

Well I called my engine builder and told him of the situation,I also put on the y pipe and ran the motor for maybe 10 seconds and it is definetly knocking.The headers are clear of the kmember,torque converter bolts are not loose, with it knocking so hard..timing cant be set either.

My builder said that when he turned the motor over by hand he didnt feel any binding and figured there was enough clearance.He is willing to come check it out in the morning but this is a big inconvience for me since I wait a month for the motor to be built and paid good money for the parts in it..not to mention the time I spent putting it in and travel time (an hr each way) for lil things he forgot to give me when I picked the motor up.

I was soo excited for this build and now I almost wish I stayed with the motor being stock which ran great.

wanab03ss

iTrader: (20)

Stick with it, in a year from now youll be rippin that car around and itll all be a memory. sorry to hear about your troubles though, I know first hand unfortunetly

86White_T/A305

It is unfortunate...hopefully the damage isnt sever and i dont have to replace the cam ..rods .bearings etc.And I hope my engine ulder doesnt try to tell me to stick where the sun dont shine.Then Ill be a unhappy camper

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

things like this happen. the only way to advoid them would be to check all the clearances as you build the engine. i did this and i still had to tear the motor down. still waiting for it to be done sucks... which i why i built my own, i had it outa the car/ fixed and back in within a week.

you cant just assemble the an engine without clearancing everything. this would mean checking rod/main/crank bearing clearances, checking bearing surfaces, checking crank surfaces for marks, cam to rod clearance, piston to valve clearance, piston ring clearances. you name it and theres something that needs to be checked!

hopefully its something minor, cam to rod contact would mean an automatic new CAM, the cam material is softer than the rods. what i hope is that the rods arent contacting the block (oil pan perimeter) this is not good and could ruin the block/rod/crank. if hes going to be fixing the engine then it should come outa his pocket since this is human error. make sure the bearings/bearing surfaces are ok as well since the knock could be putting added stress on a particular area.

86White_T/A305

So I got good news.Started the car up with the y pipe back on and the knock cant be felt from the motor internally when feeling the oil pan and its not that loud at all anymore.It sounds like its coming from the power steering pump or water pump.. both of which are pretty old and Im replacing in a week or two after I save up some cash again. When i get to my friends shop to figure out whats causing the knock my engine builder told me to take the belt off the power steering pump and see if it still knocks..and then try disconnecting the water pump and try that aswell for a few seconds.

Ill post my findings later on ...hopefully everything will work out.

Wishmaster's87IROC

iTrader: (4)

i know how you feel man!.....i went to hell and back with mine.

good luck!

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Hey just a quickie for ya....

The same kinda thing happened to me when I did my HSR,AFR,Cam swap.....
Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, I was thinking WTF!!!!
Turned out that the dowel pin on the LPE cam was alittle longer than stock... (for the LT1 guys I think????) and the dowel was hitting the timing chain cover....

I put my hand behind the water pump and felt it on the timing cover!!!! Check for yourself..... but do it quickly cause things get hot fast!!!
Hopefully it's just the dowel.

Good Luck!!!!

86White_T/A305

Thanks Ill add that to my check list.

As it sits the car still has knock even with the water pump and the power steering pump disconnected.It has also started leaking from what might be the rear main seal because the oil is very slowly seaping out at the back of the oil pan and there is no oil at the back of the heads or intake..but the underside of the tranny bell housing and flywheel is coated in oil.

Im calling my builder again in the morning to report what I found.Im going to ask about cam to rod clearance..cam dowel pin.

With it knocking the way it is timing can never be set right nor will the ecm run it right so I cant even begin to run it long to check much at all which makes this all soo much harder to figure out.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Same thing happened to this guy....
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...ml#post4566686

Come to think of it I have video of that first start.... Bang,Bang,Bang,Bang, just too embarassed to post it....

Besides while everything was banging away one of my Accel Sparkplug wires lit on fire.......!!!!!!!!!

All on video..........

86White_T/A305

Wow would that really cause the knocking sounds and throw up my code 43?

Thats a very interesting problem..I hope its something that simple.Good find GTA Sammy.Now i know what to look for.Incase the cam button is rubbing..should I just grind it down..would I need a different cam..or just hammer out the spot on the timing cover?

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Here's what mine looked like....
I just tapped the pin in with a hammer.... job done!
I didn't have to do anything to the timing cover itself.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Chime in here if I'm off base but I thought that Cam Buttons were for a Non-roller cams goin in a Roller block....? Doesn't the Cam Plate hold it back otherwise?

I bought a Button when I did my swap but found no use for it....

Check out the discolorization on the dowel..... pretty hot huh?

86White_T/A305

im pretty sure this is my issue as i can feel knocking on the front cover consistent to rpm.

i thought there was a cam locking plate that keep the cam from walking back n forth.so basically i need to take all the front accessories off..undo the oilpan and take off the front cover..just to knock off the cam button..then reinstall and im off to the races..nothing more?

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

if the block is a stock roller cam block then there is no need for a cam button the cam retaining plate holds the cam from moving forward or backward. this is why i was able to assemble my engine insane fast bc theres no need to set cam play etc.

i wish i would have known about the cam dowel pin... certain cams should be set up already with the dowel pressed it at the right length. some are not however... an example is the GM hot cam... the dowel is setup for LT1s... so if being used on a L98 or non LT1 then the dowel has to be pressed in a certain amount. the dowel is just used to locate the cam correctly on the timing chain so the cam timing is set correctly (fool proof way) but somtimes its wrong and u should always check the cam with a degree wheel.

i thought your block is a roller block? and your running a XFI280 cam... there should be no need for adjustments to the dowel pin. but if your going to check it then u need to pull the accessories, water pump, drop the oil pan and pull the timing cover. if your running the XFI280 in a roller block then i highly doubt this is the problem. mine had no troubles/clearance issues. not to mention its alot of work for something that it might not be.

wanab03ss

iTrader: (20)

FYI there are 3 versions of the 280xfi. Roller block, non rollerblock and LT block. If you got the LT version that would explain your problem. Also if it is getting quieter the more you start it and you feel it only on the timing cover than it seems to be the logical explaination. The part number for the LT cam is 07-467-8 check your paperwork before anything and you may have your problem solved without even turning a wrench. Fixing it will be another story,,, still not too bad of a job

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

You will also need to pull your harmonic balancer to.

86White_T/A305

its a non roller block and when i ordered the cam i did order it for a non roller.but who knows what came in the box.i didnt check that because i wouldnt expect to get the wrong cam..but ya never know.I was starting to check the knock with a stehascope with the car running up in the air..dont hear anything from the pan or feel anything...i followed what gta sammy said and bingo..can feel the front covering tapping and i hear the knock right there...sadly just as i was doing this..my fuel decided it didnt want to pump enough pressure and quit on me.it doesnt prime anymore..and i have to give it a full 13volts to get it going but its just the motor running but not feeding enough psi to the rails.so tonights project is swap pumps..luckily i got a spare kicking around.and i have an access door to easily change pumps out.

GTA Sammy

iTrader: (1)

Cha Ching!!!
Another 10 points for Sammy
Hope that everything works out for ya!!!!
But to tellyou the honest truth I thought that you were running a roller block???? It should be....

86White_T/A305

This is how she runs now.I fixed my knock sensor aswell..set my base timing,still need more fuel pressure..its at 42psi and gets leaner with high rpm.Spent a lil time tuning the emulator and now she is very responsive..crisp throttle and lots of power there.I did the breakin proceedure of 20 min at 2000rpm.Now my engine builder is going to come take the car and fix his work with the rear main seal..and the front timing cover from hitting the cam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRufmynoknQ

customblackbird

iTrader: (15)

glad u got it figured out.

i hope your installing 255lph pumps btw... my walbro 255lph high pressure has no issues feeding my 383.

if im not mistaken the builder cant just tap in the cam peg on the front of the cam... he would have to pull the cam and then tap it in. which would mean that he needs to remove the lifters and i dnt think u can put the lifters back in since its not a roller lifter and would require new lifters and another break in procedure... (i could be wrong im not familar with non roller setups that technology is too old for me lol) unless u marked the lifters to each lobe and put them back in the same spots... idk.

id like to take a look at your tune if u dnt mind. i got mine running pretty good but i like to see what other setups like. im running all moates stuff on a AUJP base bin and a 6E expanded xdf.

86White_T/A305

I am using a walbro 255lph pump in my tank...just glad it was working fine and had only come off the cheap plastic clamps.

As for fixing the leaks and cam button..Im waiting for my builder to come se the car running and decide on how we go about making it right.

The car runs fairly good so far on the bin Im using.I am speed density so Im on the hunt for a bin closer to my setup to play with.This tune is running on the lean side in higher rpm and Im a tuning novice.

Im running the bin from moates called "first thirdgen 300hp...etc" something like that.It feels pretty strong but I havent beaten on the motor since its fresh still.I want to get a pcmforless tune and then adjust from there.Hoping I can actually squeeze 380rwhp from her.