raptere

So this is my problem and i have no clue how it is happening. When ever i play my subs loud which are sitting pointing parralel with the rear window, something makes the rear hatch release selenoid fire all by its self, and the hatch opens, often while driving, kind of scary.
I did recently replace the hatch motor but not the selenoid, also i replaced the struts, no clue how thoes things could have effected anything. Another thing i concidered was maby the way i ran my sub power wires that the power, or magnetic field or mabe even a short could be effecting it in some way. I ran the power wire under the dash above the pedals, under that plastic cover with the little coatch picture on it to the back where i run it next to the seat and to the amp.

any ideas would be greatly appriciated, im stumped, and i want to be able to listen to my sterio as loud as i want with out worrying about it opening on the highway or something.

Thanks guys,
Raptere
Eli

PS. I am getting a new custom fit dual twelve sub box like a lot of people have for the thirdgen camaros, so do you think that will effect any thing?

junkyarddog

That's incredible!

Are you sure the soleniod is actually energizing? My first assumtion is that the latch isn't latching as it should and can easilly break free with the right vibrations.

I seriously doubt this solenoid is being triggered by EMF. Bad grounds and high current can route electricity through wierd places, but I'm sure the positive side of the coil is only connected when the relay closes.

I've experienced 'stray current' in my corolla when the battery ground was bad. I looked at the schematic to figure out why certain dash lights were lighting while the starter was trying to crank...it made no sense looking at the schematic, but the current somehow made it's way through the filaments even without any ovious positive or negative potentials. I still find it hard to believe that this phenomenon could activate a solenoid enough to pop the trunk if this were the case in your car.

My suggestion is to disconnect the wire from the solenoid. Try to pop the trunk again without the soleniod connected. By poping the trunk...I mean with the subs. This will rule out the solenoid, you may have slop in the locking mechanism.

Incoming

i know what the problem is

here

is

my

answer..




"lol thats funny"

ScrapMaker

I must not have the right internet browser because I couldn't see your hilarious picture, or whatever amusing contribution you posted... oh well


I would also agree with the vibration itself causing the unlatch, but I am a little confused... wouldn't you notice the latch not going down all the way? When the motor pulls down the hatch, it seems like it would pop out then...

did you replace your motor housing at the same time as the motor?

also can you force the trunk open easily with your hands, or maybe by parking your car on a small hill (like front right tire on hill, so the frame twists a bit, that makes the hatch move a tiny bit, maybe that would make it open?)

raptere

no i tried to pull up on the hatch and it wont open easily by hand. Also i did replace the housing when i replaced the motor, it pulls it down very hard and secure. I am almost sure it hase something to do with electrical because i am pretty sure the selenoide is firing because it dosent let go at firs, first i hear it click, the motor slowly moves up, and the light turn on and then it opens, unless i am moving over about 30 mph where i have found teh down force of the factory wing, actually pushes it back closed, lol!

Does any one know where the wires are run for teh switch, i am running my power wire for the amp under the plastic on the drivers side, could that be affecting anything?

Thanks for the continuing help, we'll figure this out eventually, i hope!

Thanks again,
Eli
Raptere

cyipher

just disconnect the wiring connector from the solenoid and play bass, see if it opens if so its the latch if not the wiring

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

Can it be something about the relay in the housing? Maybe it's on the edge of being tripped and the subwoofer just bounces the hatch and viberates the plastic just right to set it off. Then the motor raises. LOL I'm taking shots in the dark here.

raptere

yea ill have to try disconecting that wire, thanks for the idea, ill let you know what it does.

junkyarddog

if your subs are loud enough to trip a relay, I suggest visiting www.osha.gov and reading up on hearing damage.

ScrapMaker

I doubt the magnetic field of the subwoofer is enough to trip a relay from that distance.. which is probably not what any of you guys are talking about...

I think what's happening is that some wire somewhere is pinched together with the wire going to the hatch release wire... and disconnecting the hatch release wire would almost definitely tell us at least where to look for this problem... and that's all we're waiting on..


I guess, the only other thing I can think of is that somehow the device that "grabs" the ring that pulls the trunk down is malfunctioning... (I'm only referring the the two peices of metal that clamp the ring)...

Can you tell me this... if you just sit in your car (rev the motor a bit), and play your subs the same level that normally causes the trunk to open... does it??? if it doesn't then try putting the car in gear---maybe there is some strange short in your gear selector where the neutral saftey switch is, which also runs a relay that connects the trunk release switch--to keep your problem from happening by accidental button pressing.

raptere

hey guys,

Well here is a fun twist i put split lumb around the power wire, and even disconected the wire to the release selenoid, and sure enough it still poped open.

It hapened three times while i was driving and once in park sitting in my drive way. So i am thinking it is either something mechanical in the lift that is messed up or could the poer actually trip the selenoid or relay totally separately
o, also i looked at the wire off the selenoid, it dosent look like it even goes to a relay, it goes straight into the split lumb and heads twards the front of the car, never passes through any relay at least not visible with that rear panal off.

Im just getting more and more confused, please help!

Eli
Raptere

raptere

one last bit of info i realized.

how can i be sure the selenoid is even fireng. i tried listening but it is hard with the subs playing that loud but i ampretty sure it sounds like it is.

Also from people slaming my trunk too much i also recently installed one of the hatch pulldown motors with housing, with the metal reinforcements from tds i also installed new ones of thoes plastic slides, and new struts. Once i got that all on it worked perfectly, exept it sounds like the motor is having problems making enough power to pull the hatch down espeially at the very end of the pull down strok. Also when i try to open it using the electric switch in the front of the car i now have to often hit the switch two or three times because the selenoid is having problems letting go of the hatch because of all the pressure put on it.

Now that i think of this it seems like it could have a LOT to do with my problem, but i really dont have any clue what.

Thanks again everyone.

raptere

Come on guys is this really stumping everyone?
Give me a hand.

ScrapMaker

Okay, so you are saying you REPLACED your pull-down mechanism, or you changed from the standard-type to the pull-down? I am not sure what problems you can have from a conversion such as this, but I don't know if that's what you did...

Have you considered that maybe your struts are way too strong? Maybe they are the wrong ones and its just pulling like crazy?

How fast does your hatch open? It should open fairly fast, but then slow down right before it hits the top... although, I'll admit that most of the time (be it weather or I don't know) it comes up and bounces the hell out of the car... I wonder if its just pulling on your latching mechanism like crazy?

I also need to know if it EVER opens without your subs playing sitting in your driveway... if so then you can obviously rule out the subs...

The next step I would try to isolate exactly what amount of bass--or whatever you seem to be playing at the time that makes the hatch open... then once you can consistantly get the hatch to open, try taking the subs out and put them on the ground near the car and play the same song... if it doesn't open, you know for sure it's an actual vibration causing the triggering of the hatch release solenoid--or some other latching mechanism...

If it still opens, then (somehow) you're amplifier wiring, RCA connections or your actual speaker wires are somehow pinched somewhere, or somehow electricity from some stereo-related equipment in your car is obviously getting into that solenoid...

If it turns out that its just the harsh vibrations causing this release, then I would definitely take apart the motor assembly again, because I bet the plastic screw broke, or is not installed properly... something is awry in there.

Also try taking out your subs and driving on a very bumpy road, see if it opens then..

Good luck,

Steven

raptere

i Just replaced the pull down assembolly because the plastic housing crackedand fell apart. for the struts they are the ones i got for the proper car through top down solutions, they seem to work great i wouldnt expect too strong much how you described them to work.

No it has never happened with out the subs playing. I also just installed a new rear hatch box the ones they make for our cars, with two new subs upgrading from the one i had befor. ( it never happened before) I can almost always get it to happen with in about a minuit, if a play this one song, with the volume at 18 on my alpine head unit. it will still happen with other songs too though. i do admit it is pretty loud at that point but it dosent seem logical that that could happen.

I reelly wonder if it has something to do with my pull down assembolly it seem like it tries to pull the hatch down too far so it is really hard to release, and everything is set really tight, and you can hear the motor working really hard at the last little bit but it sounds like the motor is working really hard all the way down too so im not sure if i assemboled something wrong i guell i will have to look at that again.

PS, just to make it clear even with the wire totally disconected from the release senenoid, the trunk still opened in exactly the same manner with a click, then the motor raises it up and the light turns on, then it opens all the way.

Thanks for the help,
Raptere
Eli

ScrapMaker

try playing the subs with the box laying on your driveway, and see if it opens, just to make sure it's not an electrical problem... if you can pound away like crazy, and nothing happens, then you know its the physical vibration causing the problem--not an electrical problem...

in that case I would just remove the rear panel and first check to make sure that all the hex screws are in there tight, and that there is no slack in the unit... if you don't find any slack, then I would look at the "hooks" that grasp and pull on the metal bar attached to the bottom of the hatch... there may be a very obvious problem there...

a side note-- I don't think it's possible for the actual magnetic field of the subs to trigger the release solenoid--especially through 3/4" wood (usually), and possibly 1/4" plastic as well... just doesn't seem logical-- so I'm gonna go with the possibility that the plastic gear in your pull down assembly is broken somehow, and its just sliding out... I'd really have to look at it all again to see where damage would have to be to cause your problem...

let us know when you determine that its not some how an electrical problem--by playing the subs outside the car..

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

Well the main reason why I asked in the beginning was because of the motor replacement. I thought it might be something to do with the nut inside the housing. I was thinking maybe by some chance it didn't get set right. I think TDS says 7 turns or so for gear. My idea was maybe the motor barely hits the top of the relay, which I guess is called the reversing switch (had to look it up). Then by some freakish chance it gets jarred just right to release the latch and raise the motor mechanism.


If I were you I would first work with the pull down motor and get that working right. My first plan of attack would be to remove the rear plastic interior molding that way you can test the hatch a few times and hopefully see the motor in action. You might beable to see if the little gear nut is still trying to pull the hatch down when it's already fully closed (could by why it's bogging down at the end). You might also beable to see when the relay shutoff gets tripped.

Then depending on that I would take a perm. marker and mark where the brackets are currently, then loosen up the bolts and try moving the bracket up slightly. That might take some pressure off the hatch motor. *** knows there is only 3 tiny screws in a plastic housing holding it (Plus in your case a small bracket on the housing). If that doesn't correct the pull down travel then about your only other choice that I know of is to pull the housing back apart and adjust the little cog gear by a turn or so. I had to do this on mine when I rebuilt it. Even though I counted the times it took to get the nut off the shaft I was still off by acouple turns when I reassembled it the first time. (think I even did it once again) I'm guessing it was because my guides were broken (also replaced like you) so my counts were all messed up.

ScrapMaker

wow that's interesting, I never had a problem with the gear being in the wrong spot... I replaced the housing and the gear.. basically the entire pull-down assembly, as well as the plastic guides (teflon maybe?)... The only thing I didn't use was some rubber piece.. dunno what it was for, or I was too lazy to put it in... I think it was supposed to keep the rattles down, but I didn't have a problem so it's all good...

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

Yeah, I noticed mine is a little messed up again. After I made that new subwoofer box it must put a little pressure on the molding because once the motor almost reaches the top it will push on the interior plastic and slow it down. So I guess I need to try to realign the brackets a little or adjust the nut yet again.

Yeah those new TDS nylon guides are very nice. I can't remember exactly but I think that rubber spacer goes on the latch to shaft pressed on piece.

raptere

yea that thing with pulling the hatch down two tight sounds very possible from the waay it acts, how exactly do i adjust that?

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

Basically you can not adjust the reversing switch itself.

You have to either mess with your bracket alignment on the unit to the body. Which you can mark with perm markers around the current alignment. That way if you mess something up putting it back to the way it is now will be as easy as lining up the marks. About only other way is to take the housing back apart again and adjust the turns on the nut. I would refer back to the instructions again.

ScrapMaker

Man, I wouldn't mess with the mounting location of the pulldown assembly--that's the way it's supposed to be!

I don't understand how this nut would need to be turned to any certain point... because as long as you get the motor hooked up and then you screw the assembly back together... at least for me, right when I plugged in the motor power, it moved to the correct location... the spot where the switch turns it off, because it reached its extreme....

btw I got mine from the dealer... really cheap

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

Yeah, but it's the whole thing if you remove the unit for the rebuild, which most people do then you unbolt it to begin with. Sometimes it doesn't get put back in the exact spot. Also the gear nut is what pulls the shaft up and down. So if the nut is a few turns either way then the hatch will shut off and not be fully closed or the opposite effect the hatch will still be trying to shut but already flush with the seal and body before the switch is tripped.

Here's the directions for the older unit, but also has the newer style at the bottom of the page:

http://www.top-downsolutions.com/Doc...structions.pdf

ScrapMaker

all I know is that I didn't have to keep the nut in a certain spot... in fact I remember moving it by hand just to see how it worked... I'm almost positive that once the power is connected, the gear will turn until the motor pushes the shaft all the way up... regardless of where it started... if you have problems, then mess with the reversing switch, its a trianglular piece of plastic that activates the whole pull-down mechanism

also I just know it worked this way on my '90 bird, for all I know, you guys really do have to keep the nut in an exact position--but I don't see why they would design it so poorly...

raptere

Thanks a ton guys i at last got it after pulling the whole thing apart i slid the entire assemboly upwards a little, which made it operate better, and i guess because it was pulling down so hard before the latch couldnt totally hold on to the hatch and it poped opened.

Thanks again,
Eli
Raptere

Ps, now i can atlast play my music to my hearts content!

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

Good Deal! All I know is I trust Lon's instructions, after all he's about the only aftermarket supplier of pull down parts :-)


Oh and about the poor design of the hatch... I don't think GM was really thinking about that. If they thought more about these things they would have made a metal bracket from the start instead of 3 screws into a plastic housing... about the same with the headlights if they had put more time into the design they wouldn't sag all the time. Course that increases costs also.

ScrapMaker

what do you mean the headlights sag?

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

That's another topic... but how GM used cheap gel type plastic inserts in the making of their head light assemblies. As times goes on they wear and slowly get ate alive. That's why you can have a working headlight motor (spinning freely) but the head light doesn't move. The assembly relies on the 3 inserts to turn the shaft, once they crumble the drive may keep on working but it doesn't turn the shaft. (When I pulled my droopy headlight apart it looked like tiny plastic shrapnel all over inside of the chamber.) Threw in the new TDS inserts which are made out of a heavy duty plastic type material (delrin) and now my new rebuilt headlight can easily beat the OEM other side by 1 or 2 seconds from closed to extended.

Here's a pic from another member's picture of his... mine looked very similar.

ScrapMaker

wow... my headlights are original and they take about 1/4 of a second to open....

I guess cuz they are from '90

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

Mine are from a 90 also.

Anyways glad we finally got raptere's problem fixed.

ScrapMaker

yup, all is well that ends well