18inchboyds

hey guys , i recently put in a 12inch sub that faces straight back , well it rattles the tail lights and now the doors handles are starting to rattle . What should i use, just dynamat, or fat mat, or anything . Also i wanan do the doors, so do i just take the door panels off and put it on or do i have to put in on the door skin, which would be a pita. Does anyone have any pics of how it goes on the doors and the best way to take the door panel off .

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

Dynamat is overpriced if you ask me. Really depends on what you think will do the best for the price.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...&threadid=7482

As for the doors that just depends on how crazy you want to get. It's pretty split between just the door panel and the actual skin and panel. I imagine the best is to do both.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=282270

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=97393

Door panels come off pretty easily. There attached with a those stupid GM press in plugs. I usually roll the window all the way down then start at the bottom and carefully use a screwdriver to pry the panel back. Then I work my way around the panel until all the plugs are free then it should lift off with a little work. The top plastic runner grabs the window channel a little bit, so you might have to slightly roll it in and lift up.

For more help see --> https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=281616

82firebird

My imput on the subject:
How to buy "Dynomat" without the marketing:

1. Go to your local Lowe's store.

2. Go to the Roofing section.

3. Find a product called Peel and Seal.

4. Pay $12 for a 12'X6" roll of Peel and Seal.

5. Install under your carpet.

6. Smile at the look on your friends' faces as you show them all the cash you saved.

18inchboyds

id rathe rbuy the right stuff to do the job, dynamat is not something i wanna have to do twice. Id really rather not use roofing supplies, home depot has ice and water barrier but i hate home depot so id go to lowes if anything .

82firebird

You must just be in luck because Home Depot doesn't carry Peel and Seal- only Lowe's. You're really just paying for the 'Dynamat' name; its the same stuff, but the choice is yours.

67 Camaro 88

Lowe's carries Ice and Water Shield.

Gummie

I also don't like the peel and seal idea due to the possibility of a smell (some other forums mentioned that it had a slight asphalt smell because it contains asphalt). I also didn't like it's relative thinness and the idea of the stuff oozing off my roof from it's own weight during a hot summer also didn't appeal to me. Sure, it will probably never happen, but I prefer to use things for more or less what they’re intended for.

I'm amazed that no one mentioned Raam Mat. They sell 62.5 sq feet of mat for $130 off the their website and they sell the same stuff on e-bay for $99. I paid a total of $119 to have a roll shipped to my house in NJ from CA.

The stuff works amazingly well, is comparable to Dynamat extreme in every way other than price (I helped one of my friends do a Dynamat install in his car), and the stuff sticks like no other. My roof sounded like it was made of dampened fiberglass with the headliner out after the install. No reverb or echo at all could be heard when it rained the next day and I happened to be in the car with everything off; just an extremely distant patter. It also killed all the noise in my doors and a good bit of the road noise from the floor too. Forget the audio gains for a second, do you have any idea how nice it is to drive a sports car that's pretty much free of road noise (aside from the exhaust note of course )?

There are tons of alternatives to Dynamat. If you’re hellbent on buying Dynamat, all you’re paying for is the name and marketing behind that name. And you're paying through the nose. The Dynamat bulk pack retails for $250 and only contains 36 square feet of mat. That's $6.95 per square foot. Raam mat is around $2.00 per square foot ($130, 62.5 square feet). You can find both cheaper on e-bay or elsewhere, but in the end an alternative will always end up being cheaper.

Also, if you’re planning on doing the whole care, you are going to need at the very least 125 sq feet.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Dynamat prices depends on how much effort you put into it, i paid about 150 a bulk pack at sound advice locally when i did it, used up 3 boxes, needed 1 more to finish it.

Heres a few pics

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

18inchboyds

well im not concerned with what brand it is as long as it gets rid of my rattle , my tail lights and door panels are rattling like crazy and its annoying and sounds crappy . I found dynamat for 88 for 36 sq ft but this razz mat sounds like a fine thing to me . Double that for the same price.

Gummie

Raam Mat kicks serious butt. The only downside is that you wont have the ability to pop a door panel off for some friends to show them the Dynamat logo bling... because you know everyone is always pulling their panels off their car to show off their Dynamat install job

Other than that logo, it's the same, if not a better, product. You also can’t beat Rick's (the owner of Raam Mat) friendliness. He will go out of his way for you and will not make any bs claims.

shr00m

iTrader: (2)

For the tails, all you need is about 1 square foot. Cut it into tiny 1.5"x1.5" squares, drill a hole in the middle, and them put them on every peg the tails mount with (between the taillight and body). Should isolate the tails enough until you feel like doing the whole inside.

Kevin D.

18inchboyds

thanks guys, you guys rock and this is why i love the tech on this site. Looks like the raam mat it is .

gummie i liked that , i was reading and like , in lil jons voice" what" and then i got it . I never pull that damn panel off , and btw where can i get a good tool to pull the doorpanel off . Does sears have one.

Gummie

The only thing holding the door panels on are a few torx screws, some phillips screws, and a bunch of the lovely GM plastic interior barbs. Pop the covers on either end of the armrest to reveal two of the screws. There's another screw that holds on the door handle plastic cover thing (you will see it when you're looking for it; it's under a dust cover with either a firebird or camaro emblem on it).

Do you have manual or power windows? If you have manual windows, you have to pull the crank. I think there's a c clip on the handle that you have to pull off, I think. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

The top piece of plastic that runs across the top of the door is a separate piece and is pretty self-explanatory.

That's about all I can remember screw wise. Once you get everything out, work your way between the panel and the door. Feel free to just rip the plastic barbs out; you don't need to worry about saving them. Just be careful to not distort/blow out where the barbs mount to the actual panel. I just cut my barbs in half between the door and the panel and bought new ones at autozone. It was around $4 for 25 of them and saved a lot of hassle.

18inchboyds

i have manual , and i have the tool , i hate the thing , its a pita to use. But thanks for the info . Hopefull y when i do the mat ill have the cam handy .

Yossarian14

I'm using duct insulation from this one store down the street and I'm pretty sure its going to do a good job.

sesand

If you haven't bought anything yet, some folks swear by the Second Skin Sludge, and it's not really all that expensive. I'm going to be installing their Spectrum V2 (a similar product) in about a week and a half, so I can let you know how it goes. I plan on putting something soft over it to further muffle the sound and give it a cushiony feel under my feet.
The mats are good for covering up some of the holes in the door skin. Make sure you dont seal your doors at the bottom, or they will fill up with water

JeffW

i got brown bread of ebay good stuff thicker than dynamap and easy to work with just wear glove crap will tear ya up....

jeff

18inchboyds

i havent bought anything yet , but i might buy some crap from walamrt just to get the tails done with the littel squares and see if that works . but ill hold off and see how it goes with the v2 stuff.

sesand

what does wal-mart sell?
i won't be done with this for about 2 weeks, if you want to wait that long. i plan on taking pictures of the entire process and posting them.

18inchboyds

i dont know , my bro said they sold some crap there. dynamat like stuff.

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

Just don't use the WalMart liquid rubber undercoating stuff for sound deadening or you'll have a big mess. One guy I use to chat with used it in a trunk application where he sprayed down all the metal with the undercoating and put the insulation and carpet back in. One hot summer day he had this horrible smell, which he then tried to pull the carpet back out. Turns out the cheap $3 or $4 cans of spray on stuff liquidifed again from the heat and glued his carpet into place. Eventually ended up scrapping all the sludge out.

Nate86

Everyone has always told me that all you pay for with Dynamat is the name, and that's about it. Well, I'm not the type of person to go on heresay alone, so I did a little research on the subject and found some interesting information.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...ng-6-2003.html

According to the author of this article, the product that obtains higher values of acoustical loss is obviously the better product. Let's have a look at Dynamat's numbers:

Acoustic Loss Factor @ Temperature (Using ASTM method E756@ 200 Hz):
0.240 @ +32F (+0C)
0.257 @ +50F (+10C)
0.417 @ +68F (+20C)
0.259 @ +86F (+30C)
0.194 @ +104F (+40C)

This is straight off Dynamat's own website. Now let's take a look at a very similar product, B-quiet sound deadener:

Acoustic Loss Factor ASTM E756 @ 200 Hz:
0.23 @ +0C (+32F)
0.26 @ +10C (+50F)
0.39 @ +20C (+68F)
0.32 @ +30C (+86F)
0.24 @ +40C (+104F)

You can clearly see that both of these products obtain very close numbers at any given temperature. In fact, B-quiet actually beats Dynamat when the temperature rises above 30C. I should mention that all of these numbers come from the "best" product from each company... that is, Dynamat Extreme and B-Quiet Ultimate (the numbers for Dynamat Original and B-Quiet Extreme are also on each of their websites). Unfortunately, I could not find the numbers for Raam Mat and obviously Peal 'n Seal is not going to have any numbers since it's not intended for car sound deadening.

Of course, these numbers are pretty much useless unless you can compare prices and quantity, so here they are:

Dynamat Extreme: $129.99 for 36 Sq. Ft. (@ Etronics.com)
B-Quiet Ultimate: $129.99 for 50 Sq. Ft. (@ B-quiet.com)
Raam Mat: $129.00 for 62.5 Sq. Ft. (@ raamaudio.com)

Raam Mat seems to be the best deal, but without acoustic loss numbers, it's impossible to determine (however, I'll assume that it too can produce some similar numbers to B-Quiet and Dynamat).

I was a bit undecided on what to buy considering that the generally accepted idea behind car audio is "You get what you pay for," and I figured sound deadener was no exception. However, after looking at the facts and numbers, it appears that all the people saying that you pay for the Dynamat name were right. I know what I'll be using when I start sound deadening my car, and it won't be Dynamat.

Some food for thought...

EDIT: Thought I'd add some weight figures too, since I know people will be concerned about how much additional weight sound deadener will add to their car.

Dynamat Extreme: 0.45lb./sq. ft. (27lbs. @ 60sq. ft)
B-Quiet Ultimate: 0.35 lb/sq. ft. (21lbs. @ 60 sq. ft)

Yossarian14

How is there such a large weight difference and still get similiar results? Could anyone give me any good reasons not to use duct insulation, I've been told by a couple people to do this (Corvette & Nova).

sesand

Actually, noise propagation is more complex than that. You just can't just measure the acoustic loss factor of different mats, because all that tells you is how effective it is as a mass loader. Mass loading is the oldest form of noise reduction. All it really involves is the reduction of vibrations through a panel as the waves pass through it (something that weighs more will vibrate less given the same energy is applied). An acoustic loss factor tells you how fast the metal panel will quit vibrating at a given frequency, but in no way tells you how effective it will be to reduce noise in the car. If you want to just compare mats, then acoustic loss factor is the way to go.

Unfortunately, noise inevitably finds the path of least resistance, which is typically through the air - or in terms of your basic car, through noisy panels (and even holes) that have not been treated. Mats typically don't take care of all noise problems, which is why it is necessary to use other forms of treatment that also reflect and absorb unwanted noise.

This is why liquid viscoelastic technologies (such as Second Skin Spectrum) are becoming so popular, and even Dynamat has produced a viscoelastic product of its own. These paintable and sprayable viscoelastic products not only mass load the metal panels, but also include materials to absorb sound as well. They also weigh a whole lot less per sq. ft. than the mats. The more the source can be treated, or isolated with air-tight barriers treated with absorption and mass-loaded techniques, the better your chances of achieving quiet, which truly can only be measured in decibels across a frequency range.

As far as the difference between mats go - some are made with vinyl (typically higher temperature resistance, and no "tar smell") and some are made with asphalt (tar-based with lower temperature resistance - they melt when it gets too hot in the summer). Different materials lead to different weights. Each mat also uses its own adhesive, some of which are better than others. If the material doesn't stick, the mass loading effect is non-existent.

Duct insulation would work as a sound absorber, but its not designed to be an effective one. Its likely not water resistant and probably won't hold up if you install it in the car.

18inchboyds

awesome post , i will not get dynmat now , im thinkin the raam mat is what ill most likly get when i decide to do it . I just hope when i do the back of the car and then the doors other parts dont get worse , cause i dont feel like taking it all apart and doing it again.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

how many square feet would be needed to do the doors and entire floor again?

Nate86

In reply to sesand:

Although the acoustic loss factor may not tell you how well the mats in question will reduce sound in the car, would it be unreasonable to assume that, based on the acoustic loss factor, one mat may be a better value than another? Dynamat and B-Quiet mats have very similar numbers as far as acoustic loss factor goes, but you get 12 more square feet of B-Quiet than Dynamat for the same price.

That's all I'm really trying to say. Dynamat seems to charge more just for having their logo on the mat, and other companies seem to charge much less for a similar (or perhaps even better) product.

sesand

Yeah, I think you can safely compare the mats on acoustic loss factor (I thought I said that), assuming their absorptive and reflective qualities are identical. If you consider ALF and the quality of the adhesive, you should be good.
I wouldn't waste money on Dynamat - it is surely overpriced. Most people only buy it because it is sold everywhere and a lot of folks don't know about other products because they haven't looked. I didn't mean to imply that your statements were invalid by my post. I just didn't want people to think that acoustic loss factor is the only important consideration in the overall scheme of making your car quiet.

Nate86

No problem. You are absolutely right as far as that is concerned... if you expect Dynamat (or similar) to get rid of all the noise problems in your car, you're in for dissappointing results for sure.

In any case, thanks for the clarification.

Nate86

Someone suggested 125 sq. ft. as a bare minimum, but don't take my word for it.

Kandied91z

iTrader: (7)

thanks.

anyone that has done it know aproximately how much they used? i'd appreciate it.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

lizard skin has my vote hands down.

http://www.coollizard.com/

sesand

Website looks cool. What was your experience with it?

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

It can be used for everything. I wont swith back to dynomat again.

Its sandable and paintable also..

CaysE

Does it crack?

sesand

That's what the website says. I was hoping for more insight like how much you spent, what areas of the car you covered and how much you used, what the results were, etc. I already think Dynamat is overpriced

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Cost me around $250. I got 2gallons. and and plan to use it under the hood,under the car, inside the car, inside the doors, etc... Every inch will be covered.

Ive got the car completlly striped for the roll bar and other work so its not a big deal for me to do it now.

sesand

Let us know how it turns out. Pics would be cool, too

JeffW

when i did the camaro i used 1 and 1/2 rolls of brown bread. that is covering every square inch in the car, including roof and doors. car is a t top so not much one the roof. i also placed some pieces inside the doors and anywhere i could stick my hand in. this help with the extreior panels being quiet. i did not just coevr the door panel i went inside the door also where i could reach.doors sound so solid now its incredable. brown bread is made by b quiet and is one step down from the top product they have.

jeff

ScrapMaker

I like the idea of the sprayable sound deadener... because it can get into places that a thick material cannot... and it's gonna stick for sure.

sesand

It is a lot more messy, since it seems to get everywhere, but cleanup isn't too bad since you can wipe the stuff off with a damp cloth if you get it somewhere you don't want it. I can't wait to hear how it sounds. My car is all torn apart and my stereo is just sitting there in the garage - such a huge waste!

Nate86

Hmm, I'm still skeptical of the spray sound deadener. My friend sprayed some on the ceiling of his '91 Z28 while he was replacing the headliner and it didn't sound any different than when it was just bare metal. The roof of these cars seems to be pretty thin to begin with, though. Perhaps that is why it doesn't sound any different.

In any case, until I see some actual results or hear a car with spray on sound deadener, I won't be purchasing any.

ScrapMaker

what were you expecting? that's the roof of the car... most of the road noise comes from the floorpans, and the most beneficial spot to spray for subs, is the rear shelf, well, sides etc...

I'm not sure the roof would do any good, except make rain less loud...

/who cares about rain?

sesand

Covering the roof does nothing for road noise. It's so small on our cars, you probably wouldn't notice much of a difference anyway.
If you're interested in the results (which are supposed to get better in a week, since that is how long the spray takes to fully cure) check out this thread:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=282027

ScrapMaker

I have t-tops, and the rain is very quiet in my car... guess the glass calms down the rain.

sesand

Yeah, I can't say rain or even wind noise has been a problem in my car. It's worse in cars with large roofs because car manufacturers don't make the roof thick enough to compensate for the increased size and you end up with a giant tin can if it's not properly treated.

Nate86

I should have clarified. I didn't expect it to reduce road noise at all. I made a comparison between my car and his by letting him knock on the roof of each of our cars and neither of them sounded different at all. Just sounded like someone loudly knocking on metal.

I figured the knock would be somewhat muffled on his car since he had the spray deadener on it, but it sounded the same to me.

But we are talking about the roof here. What can you expect?

ScrapMaker

yeah, dynamatting the roof is worthless... any sound dampening is worthless up there, really..

sesand

If you recall, the liquids typically damp the metal, but also absorb sound waves that pass through, so knocking the outside may not make a difference if you're listening on the outside. It also depends on the material that was used for damping. I have noticed a difference knocking on the panels, but you have to compare a treated door with the untreated door of the same car. Different car panels have different resonant characteristics. You can't knock on the door of the car and expect it to sound the same as the metal hump in the rear. You also can't just coat part of a metal panel and expect an improvement.
Trust me, the stuff works. It's been about 4 days since I finished the last coat for this part of the project, and it seems to get quieter each day. I'm driving from Cincy to Cleveland tomorrow, so I will have time to listen to a lot of music (and possibly a lot of silence) to check out the difference. I've already noticed that I don't need to turn up the stereo as loud, even with the car off. It's an incredible difference on the highway.
Spectrum didn't seem to crack during application, if that question was asked of me. I put on two or three thin coats, which makes a difference. It might have cracked under one thick coat. In places that were sloppy (typically areas that resulted from the liquid running down vertical surfaces), it seems to bulge and create a pocket that remains liquid while it hardens on the outside. I typically just popped the bubble with my paint brush and smoothed it over before it had a chance to totally dry - seemed to work well.

TPl383 : The lizard skin is ridiculously expensive. 2 gallons for $189 plus shipping???? I didn't think ceramic was that expensive...