TheExaminer

I posted earlier that I had to do a heater core change after paying some clown $540 fifteen months ago to do it. My windshield is already fogging up on an 84* day with the heat off. He said it "was hard", but he got it done--took about 8 hours he said. I decided to do it myself this time, and lo and behold, I don't get what the big deal is. I've been working on this less than an hour, and could have had the hvac cover off in 15-20 minutes had I not spent time poking around and known exactly what to do. It's off as we speak, pics below to prove it. All you have to do is take the map pocket off, unscrew and unplug the DERM module, drop the ecm and bracket, then drill a hole right HERE. pic below... The top screw is right behind there, I used a long extension and it came right out. Now I'm not saying it won't be work to get it back in, but good grief, tape the crew to the socket--whatever. I'm more amazed than ever that I paid this clown $540 for what will be a couple hours work TOPS. CLOWN! I wanted to pull the map pocket anyway to clean and re-glue it. I have to be honest and say, I was gonna drill a hole right here, but when I pulled the map pocket off--there was already a hole there! I don't think it's factory because it's not exactly round. There SHOULD be one there, but I think someone drilled this one. I'm not sure. Either a PO did it, or Mr. Clown did it and took a 6 hour break afterwards on my dime.

TheExaminer

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TheExaminer

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Ron U.S.M.C.

Its like everything else on these cars. I use every piece of info I can get on a subject/project/part or piece that needs to be either fixed or replaced.
Then I Google it with YouTube and watch it done.
YouTube has been my friend many times. 1A Auto puts out some videos you will find there.
Just do a YouTube search on Third Gen Camaro heater core replacement and you will see what I'm talking about.
Maybe your Mechanic should have watched them.....


I have a Mechanic Phobia called " Never Again" Syndrome .....

TheExaminer

Oh, I've already done that, thats pat of why it was easier this time. Back then I was new to this car, and being a novice mechanic I didn't have the confidence to push ahead with it by myself that I do now. I've done enough on it since then, that I'm not as afraid to tear stuff apart. Granted, I still have the grunt work of draining the coolant and ramming the new core in, etc., but the "hard" part was supposed to be the dis-assembly of the hvac box, which I did in minutes today. In all the sites and hints I've seen, not one person suggested drilling a small hole in the dash behind the map pocket. I don't claim to be any genius, but it was one of the first things I thought of. I'm sure others have done it. In Mr. Clown's defense, he probably pulled out a Haynes manual, which says to take part the dash and even the console! I know he tore out the console because it looked slightly different when I got it back. This is completely unnecessary! Mechanics like him have to work on every kind of car, and it's difficult to have the specialized knowledge of one type of car that you see on this site. This site has never let me down once. I've gotten accurate information every single time. That's why I wanted to contribute these pics. Might help some poor devil who's afraid he'll have to tear his whole dash out. Nope, just drop a couple brackets and drill a hole. And BTW, if anyone on here can come up with a valid reason why my windshield is fogging up other than the HC, I'm all ears...... LOL

Ron U.S.M.C.

I'm learning as I go as well.
The one that actually got me to start Googling everything is my sister.
I started learning about how to use a computer about the same time I bought my Camaro for $500.00.
Every time I would ask her a question about the PC she would say , "have you Googled it yet" ?


Anyway, its my first build ever but after 9 years working on and saving for the parts and pieces needed for the car I've learned a lot.


I don't think its given me a break for any longer than a week. Two tops.
I like the word "Perseverance"

TheExaminer

I know the feeling. It's a constant call to the garage. If it's not something that's broke, it's something that works that I'm trying to get working better or more fully restore. But I've tasted the bitter pill too. Two different clowns around here have cost me at least $1,000 with screw ups. And since one included me actually being forced to buy a used rear axle assy, I'm probably spending another $8-900 to rebuild that, which I will do MYSELF when I get the cash ready.

Ron U.S.M.C.

I’m guilty of using a shop for my 10 Bolt Build. There reputation was very impressive and $300.00 to do the work was more than fare. Even came with a warrantee on parts and labor.
Here’s a link if your interested. =
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...de-photos.html

TheExaminer

Yeah, I think we talked about this a couple months back. Looks like you bought axles and some stuff I won't be needing. I had thought about letting a local shop do the actual gear setup and doing the rest myself, but I'll see. Don't have the money right now anyway, but I'm adding things up and making plans ahead of time anyway.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Ron has done basically the exact same thing I have done to the rear on my car. the only difference is he went with an Eaton unit and I went with a Zexel Torsen unit like out of the 02 SS/WS6 cars. Its 6's as far as which is better. Both get the job done admirably well. I also have the axle braces somewhere, just not sure where.

TheExaminer

BTW guys, just so I'm clear on all this. Is there anything else in the AC or hvac system that could cause a windshield to fog up? Any off chance? I don't think doing this swap will be very hard now, but want to make sure I'm covering everything. I don't ever use my AC, I don't think it even works. The exact conditions were that I started the car up to drive home from work after it sat for 8 plus hours on an 80+ degree, sunny day. I stopped at BK for a quick milkshake because it was hot and I had an hour drive home. While I was in the drive through, the glass started fogging up moderately bad and I had to wipe it with a napkin. It wasn't water vapor, I was slightly oily. The temp slider was set to cool (and had been all day) and the switch was set to off, yet still it came up throug the defroster to the glass. If there is anything else besides HC that would do this, please let me know.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Is it water or is it slimy like possibly antifreeze?

TheExaminer

Im sure there might be some water in it, but it also did not go away unless I wiped it off. Windows were down, and ttops were out, so plenty of ventilation on a hot day. I tried different heat and defrost settings, and it never went away. It's still on the glass right now, hasn't gone away at all, as I haven't re-cleaned it yet. So yeah, it was a somewhat oily consistency, probably coolant, but the smell is so slight that you can't tell by smell alone. Remember, it failed that first time and there may be residual coolant in the air passages, so smell alone never worried me, although there IS a very, very slight coolant smell. I've noticed a slight haze every now and then at the bottom of the glass for months, but Thursday it went more all out and fogged up most of the glass.

Ozz1967

iTrader: (4)

Your right, it is antifreeze residue that is in the vents and should go away once you change your heater core.

mk1431

It possible a/c leak... coolant very distinct smell a/c has different smell you could put a/c dye in it and see if glows under black light. a/c has oil in it its a clear oil or green if has dye. if you never smellled a/c take cover off scrade valve in depress with finger get freon on finger and smell compare to what you smellled

TheExaminer

But you agree that it's pretty much the HC and not anything else off the wall?

TheExaminer

The problem is, I don't even know if that AC even has oil in it, or where to put dye and etc. I know virtually nothing about the AC system. Plus, I never turned the AC, but don't know if that has anything to do with it or not. The smell is so slight, and there was so much coolant in the air passages from the previous failure, it's going to be next to impossible to differentiate any smell. I do smell a very slight coolant smell, but it's very faint and hard to tell if any other smell is mixed in, or if it's new or old. I'll try what you said with the shcrad when I get the chance--if the thing is even pressurized any more, and it may not be. One thing may be noteworthy, as I was nosing around the HC yesterday, I didn't see any evidence at all of wet coolant. If there's a leak there, it's up higher and so small it never dropped down. So IDK, maybe it is the AC. What's the equivalent of the HC called? Condenser isn't it? May be a leak there, I just don't know.

Ron U.S.M.C.

I had the AC fluid vacuumed out for $ 20.00.
That removes everything from the lines.
I'm in the process of a complete removal.

TheExaminer

Here's another small clue. I just went out and gave it the once over again. Tried the pressure release deal on the AC, and it was almost completely empty. It barely hissed a little for 2-3 seconds, and then nothing, just like a flat tire. Now that probably explains why the AC doesn't work, it needs to be charged. But, if it's empty, does that rule it out as causing the windshield fogging? Just to be clear, I opened the valve that faces in toward the motor. There was another facing upwards, did not open that one. On the pic below, I opened the right hand valve.

eseibel67

I have been in the auto repair and auto parts business for 30 years. I checked the labor time to change your heater core, the job pays 7.3 hours so the $540 the clown charged you is about right.


Prescribed method is to remove console and instrument panel. How is he supposed to know that drilling a hole in your dash will reveal the hidden screw? Of course the repair business sometimes takes liberties like drilling holes to take shortcuts. But this is the first third gen he's had in shop since 1999 and he doesn't know every trick to every car made in the history of the motoring world. I know a lot of really smart mechanics, but I don't know any that have a magic wand in their toolbox. To the average motorist, auto repair is sorcery, but in actual fact it's all about hard work, accumulated knowledge, expensive tools, cut knuckles, and ungrateful customers.


If you think the clown ripped you off, go find another guy that's interested in working on your 23 year old brittle plastic. Most of them would much prefer making easy money hanging brakes on a 3 year old Hyundai.

TheExaminer

Ok, and this rant helps us exactly how? In this very thread I said "in his defense", that being required to work on every kind of car prevents the average mechanic from having the kind of specialized knowledge about one kind of car that we see in this forum. Furthermore, you don't HAVE to drill a hole behind the map pocket to get to the screw, that's just what I would have done if I didn't see some PO had already done it. And yes, I get why you might not do that to someone else's car, but at the same time, removing the entire console and dashboard is a ridiculous overkill that any first year mechanic should be able to see. Ask any customer if they want you to drill a little hole where no one can see it and charge you $75, or work for 8 hours and charge you $540? The ungrateful customers would be the ones you ripped off when you went totally by the prescribed book, and all the others kept waiting because you spent 8 hours doing needless work on one car.

How is it that a half wit idiot like me can see that the only thing standing between me and that screw is the DERM module? Which is held in by two small 7mm screws? I can also see that in my shop manual, which ANY shop has access to through "Alldata" or whatever the heck it is they call it now. A cursory glance at my dashboard revealed this to me, and yet I was charged $540 for 8 hours of labor, at least 6 of which were not even necessary. I don't care what Haynes says, removing the console has absolutely no bearing on the heater core, none. You'll get no sympathy from me on this, that is a lot of extra money out of my pocket when I need it! I learned about 3 years ago that garages are a large percentage of racketeering and deception to make more money off ignorant customers. Nobody said anything about sorcery, and I've done a lot of hard work on my car in the last year and an half. I have a lot to learn, but the rip off artists I've seen in the mechanic industry have taught me to work for MYSELF. In the last year and a half I've lost at least $1,000 to clowns that did stuff they weren't supposed to do, or didn't do it right. I'm done. "Ungrateful customers"? You got it buddy. If this guy thought it took 8 hours to do this job just because some manual told him so, he's either ripping people off to get more money out of them, or making a lot of extra work for himself for no reason. If you want something done right, do it yourself. I won't be finding any "other guy" to work on my 23 year old brittle plastic. Thx for your input.

Ron U.S.M.C.

I had a two car garage where one of my first attempts at working on my car in what I considered a major project was removing and installing the new intake manifold gasket. I did it and it lasted for around 8 years.
I needed it done again but had nowhere to do it.
The shop owner said he was a Chevy guy so I trusted him with my pride and joy.


eseibel67 ,What you say is true, but its guys like the one I used that give Mechanics a bad name. They crushed my under carriage with a two post lift because they don't know where the lift points are on a Third Gen Camaro AND they don't say a word when you go to pick it up about the ground effects on the side with a 4 in crack that was not there when you dropped it off.
This is with a custom $3,000.00 paint job.


Then you look under the hood and the plug wires look like a 10 year old child routed them.


When I said something to him about it he's said "we are a production shop and things happen".


He did make it right, I give him credit for that.
I have trust issues like many here with my car when it comes to Mechanics.


Even the rear end shop I have used agreed to use there one and only drive on 4 post lift when it came to my car . The other bays have the dreaded 2 post.

mk1431

does it still fog up? maybe the a/c had 1 last poof now its empty wont happen again ? the evaporator is in the car condensor is where the radiator is

mk1431

as far as finding a repair place i would suggest a dealership for your pontiac or chevy youll pay more but the resources like tech support and multiple techs and old timers who help each other its like getting a bunch of tech for the price of one that have many years of exp. on a make of car, the independants work on so many diff. cars you cant know the ins and out of every car esp. if you work on them once and awhile. youll have better recourse if something did go wrong

TheExaminer

I took my fourth gen for an alignment a few years back at a local Chevy dealership, and waited for 2-3 hours for it to be done. When they handed it off to me the steering wheel was off center by probably 30* or so when the wheels were straight. I took it back and told them. They "fixed" it and gave it back. The wheel was now off 20* or so in the OTHER direction. I was ticked. I stormed in and made it clear I was not happy. They stood together in a huddle across the garage and decided their machine was not calibrated properly! You're just NOW figuring that out? You didn't notice the steering wheel being WAY off? This same shop also busted my windshield and hoped I wouldn't notice, I stormed in there after that one too, and sent a salesman running pell mell for the garage. They were forced to replace it. This is the same shop that wanted to charge me $800 to replace my rear trailing arms. And also this is the same shop that did a rear hatch and bumper replacement after I got rear ended, they put in a used hatch that used to be metallic red, and didn't paint it right, so even to this day I have to touch up around the glass to keep the red from showing through at the seal. The new hatch also had tint on it that looked like it had been scratched with something and was ripped in a couple places. I guess they thought I wouldn't notice? I made them take it off. I also took it in there to have them look at the transmission, and they told me it was fine. Sure, no biggie, it just needed to be totally rebuilt! It's screw up after screw up after screw up. These places are a rip off, plain and simple.

TheExaminer

No way to tell just yet. I hadn't drove it since Thursday, and just now depressureized the AC. I'll drive it this week and see if it fogs up again. But so I understand, if it does fog up again, does that officially eliminate AC as the cause?

mk1431

yes... sounds like your gonna have to get up close and personal with your car youve had some bad luck with repair shop sorry also keep a close eye on your coolant level even mark it cold level and see if you are losing coolant

TheExaminer

Haha, yeah I have. But that 4th gen stuff happened over a period of 10-12 years. Each time I'd go back there after a couple years thinking they got their act together, but no. The only things that have worked out right have been what I've done myself. Being a novice at this, it's taken some time for me to learn to trust my judgement. I've done almost all my own work since I've gotten this car. The only two exceptions were that HC, and a rear end rebuild that another guy screwed up so bad I was forced to actually buy another entire used axle assy, which itself will need a rebuild eventually. $650 for the assy, and it'll be another $8-900 for the next rebuild, plus the HC debacle. Do your own work, learn how to, and do it. There is no substitute. Meanwhile, I've already gotten the hvac box top off, so if I have to swap this HC it's an hour or two work at most now. No biggie..... :-) Oh, btw, I might be losing coolant, but at a very, very, slow rate. Coolant has been an issue with this car. There was the first HC failure, 4-5 leaky hoses I've had to replace, a leaky heater control valve, and a leaky water pump. Losing coolant has been the number one issue I've battled. Thought I had a blown head gasket for a while til I chased down all those external leaks. IMHO the HC is in the very early stages of failure. Worse leaks will come soon....

mk1431

in your pic is that a aftermarket a/c compressor and did you retro fit to 134? just curious cause mine doesn't work and leary on the conversion kits

TheExaminer

No, I didn't do it, but I'm glad you brought it up because I had a question about that too. I'm sure you're right, but I don't know as much about the AC system. What is it that tells you it's an aftermarket 134? You're the second poster to mention that to me. If so, that'll make it easier to charge--134 is what's mostly out there now isn't it? It was an Arizona car when I bought it, so Im sure AC was a big deal. If this is true, I feel a lot better about just charging it and seeing if it works. I'm probably going to pull the compressor and bracket to clean it and maybe paint the bracket if practicable though while the system is empty--along with whatever is on the engine block behind the bracket. Did the same thing to my power steering pump bracket when I changed that out.

Ron U.S.M.C.

Carful with the AC System. With out a flush there can be oil or something like it still in the lines/etc. The pressure might be gone but there could be fluid.
That's what I was told anyway.

mk1431

it dosen't look like mine no harrison label and my wire run over the top of compressor like 1 oclock pos. yours looks like an extesion wire was put on and run at 9 oclock position . 1 easy way too tell r12 has threads on the outside of the schrade valve 134 has a quick disconnect cant see cause of the red caps you have on them. the compressor can run both .

mk1431

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TheExaminer

I had to unscrew that cap, someone just put a piece of red electrical shrink wrap type stuff on them for some reason. Don't know if that's factory or PO, but there are black screw caps under them. At least, there are threads on the right hand one. The one that points upward I couldn't get off. It turned, but never unscrewed and it didn't want to force it. It may have some different kind of disconnect, idk.

TheExaminer

I can do the cleaning without disconnecting the compressor, I'd just have to support it with something when it's off the bracket. But I'll keep a close eye on it, thx.

mk1431

can you get a closeup pix for me. if i had to guess from the pix posted i would say it looks like 134 disconect the shink wrap is def. NOT factory my guess PO wasc chasing a leak and shrink wrap to seal the caps ???? maybe leak was evaporator?? if there caps under the wrap cut the wrap off cause you got no freon anyways drive first before you recharge ac

TheExaminer

Ok, I'll get some pics tommorow when I get home from work. I cleaned the windshield pretty good today, I'll drive it to work tomorrow or Wed to see if there's any more fogging.

TheExaminer

Here you go mk.

TheExaminer

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Elthesh

Well, if the shrinkwrap was to help stop a leak, you could just try replacing the valve cores since the system is empty anyway. If you don't know already, they come out just like a tires valve core. Same thing really. Also, the r134 hoses won't connect to the r12 valves and of course, vice versa, so you'd know just by trying to attach a set of hoses or one of those cheapy filler hoses to the receiver/dryer. and generally, the replacement r134 "upgrade" kits supply color coded caps to help let people know the system has been upgraded. The caps are supposed to be red and blue.

TheExaminer

It's hard to say why the shrink was put on. I've seen quite a few things on this car that make no sense, who knows. But where do you get replacement valves? I guess I can check eBay, but I'll bet new ones are hard to come by. Might just need new o rings. But here's an interesting fact. I depressureized the system, but the next time I drove it, I checked again and there was a small hiss that came out again. Could be the compressor is building up just a little every time it's driven, even though the system is empty.

TheExaminer

I found this on eBay, but this looks like a new valve kit AND 134 adaptor upgrade. Am I looking at this right? This would be ideal if that's the case.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-AC-SYSTEM-CAP-AND-VALVE-KIT-MT2902-/251736239718?fits=Year%3A1992%7CModel%3AFirebird&hash=item3a9ca62e66&vxp=mtr

Elthesh

You can really just buy the r134 upgrade kit at Walmart, or Advance or wherever. If your system was still on the old r12 you'll need the kit anyway, and if its been upgraded, you'll want to replace the valve cores or the entire valve since the upgrade that would be on your car will have removable valves.

TheExaminer

Yeah I get that, but what I wasn't sure about was whether or not the upgrade would just screw on adapters over the old valves. If that's the case, a leaky vavle core would still be leaky with an adaptor over it if it's leaking from the thread side because of a bad o ring or something. Do the upgrade kits come with new cores? This was why this eBay thing caught my eye. But like I said, AC system isn't something I know a lot about at this point. I may be talking senseless BS.

Elthesh

Well, it works like this... If it's still r12, the new valves screw on and it doesn't matter if the old core is leaky. It's your new core that will be controlling things. If I remember correctly, the new valve presses the old valve core in opening it up fully because the new core will be controlling things. If you have an r134 kit on there now, you'd just unscrew the valves and replace them with the new ones. Either way you're good.

This is all assuming there is an actual leak at one or both of the valves. It is however the easiest thing to do though.

TheExaminer

Ok, makes sense. Thx for the lesson! As I go over each part of the car I have to learn each system so I can know how to work on it. Sounds like the upgrade is a good idea no matter how you look at it, and it's a pretty cheap fix.

formula1LE

iTrader: (3)

Like with anything sometimes you need certain tools to do it right. You need to buy a set of R134 manifold gauges as well as a good vacuum pump to pull the system down after replacing everything. I'd suggest researching how to pull down a typical automotive AC system before doing anything else. Specialty tools I only want to buy ONCE so I go for quality-my gauge set is Snap-On ($250) and my vacuum pump is a 3 CFM Robinaire unit ($275).

TheExaminer

Man there is no way I'm spending that much money to fix an AC system that I never use. Until this thread came along and the issue came up, I've spent almost no time even thinking about it. I appreciate the tips, when come into gobs of money I'll buy that stuff!

ImBrandon

I took me about 30 minutes to replace my heater core on my 91 T/A. I just dropped the kick panel, moved the ecm reached in there with a swivel socket and a flash light took the screws out then removed the dead mouse i found in there. Then another 30 minutes to re-attach the hoses which were siliconed on there like a muthasucka.

TheExaminer

Oh I believe every word. Minus the time I spent poking around, it'd take me about that long. I have that little hole behind the map pocket to make it even quicker. My hoses should be relatively easy since my HC was just replace last year, plus I replaced one of the hoses a few months back because it was leaking.