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New primarily theoretical line of discussion... unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU. Probably going to be doing a 7302 -> 7749 swap, but this is the easiest stepping stone (documentation-wise) to work out the bugs since 302 and 165 are fairly similar and 165 -> 749 is documented already.
Also unsure if the 7170 is the exact harness pinout for us LB8 guys. Planning on research here, but if anyone has some knowledge to throw in, please, by all means. As soon as I finish the list of pinout gripes I'll post it.
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I think we've got all the 165 info we need... now, if someone wouldn't mind actually giving me a bit of a hand, some info on the 302 would be much appreciated, because it's *not* out there.. and I know there's experts floating around here with more info than we really want to know about stored in their heads...
Originally posted by TechSmurf New primarily theoretical line of discussion... unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU. Probably going to be doing a 7302 -> 7749 swap, but this is the easiest stepping stone (documentation-wise) to work out the bugs since 302 and 165 are fairly similar and 165 -> 749 is documented already.
Also unsure if the 7170 is the exact harness pinout for us LB8 guys. Planning on research here, but if anyone has some knowledge to throw in, please, by all means. As soon as I finish the list of pinout gripes I'll post it.
You may be able to ask Mr. TuneUp (over on the v6 board) if he can get you the wiring diagrams for the V6 MAF harness. Between the two the ECM swap will be much easier.
As for the MAF itself IIRC the V6 MAFS are a frequency output. There are two different code masks that run in the f-body '165: $32B & $6E. Only the $32B mask can handle the frequency MAF. Of course can swap to a V8 analog MAF and use either mask.
If you want a v6 P4 high frequency MAF then you might investigate the 8352. While the cal only goes to like 170 Gm/sec, using an LT MAF and frequency charts would give you the 255.
All in theory mind you, the 8253 being for DIS, you'd have a steep curve on learning the ecm but it'd be kinda neat, I think.
I'm just trying to accomplish gathering enough information to feel 100% certain about the swap. In reality, I won't be facing the MAF issue, since as I said I'm heading in the Sy/Ty 7749 direction... the 302 and 165 use a very similar pinout.. many seem to match up directly.
Seeing as the 302 to 165 swap seems fairly straight foward, once enough data has been gathered to go 165, using the 165 to 7730 and 165 to 7749 swap guides opens up pandora's box for the V6s. I'd really prefer to move away from maf, but this is just the easiest step to get the project to a point where readily available documentation becomes useful.
I've been staring at pinouts of the 165 from various sources and the one pinout of the 302 that I have, and should have an initial pinout conversion alpha chart tonight for review.
Originally posted by RBob I was wondering when someone would do this swap. For full wiring diagrams of the '165 as used in f-body's go here: http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ecm_info/1227165/
You may be able to ask Mr. TuneUp (over on the v6 board) if he can get you the wiring diagrams for the V6 MAF harness. Between the two the ECM swap will be much easier.
A PM to TomP will be out hopefully getting him to chime in momentarily. Good suggestion, was considering it myself. Call it a majority vote now
Quote:
As for the MAF itself IIRC the V6 MAFS are a frequency output. There are two different code masks that run in the f-body '165: $32B & $6E. Only the $32B mask can handle the frequency MAF. Of course can swap to a V8 analog MAF and use either mask.
Yep. Ghetto V6 mafs are frequency film. One of the main reasons I would do this, were I going to do this, or if I do this, would be to get a hot-wire MAF so I can run blow-through. If anyone wants to do this and keep the frequency film MAF, power to them, but I'm not doing the footwork there.
Which gives us what appears to be a good conversion.
Harness repin, in 302 order
Code:
A 2 --> DISCONNECT + Insulate
A 11 --> C 12
B 4 --> D 4
B 6 --> B 12
B 7 -- New wire to ESC module pin B (unless
we really do have a knock sensor already)
B 9 --> DISCONNECT + Insulate
C 9 --> D 11
C 12 --> DISCONNECT + Insulate (!!!)
C 15 --> DISCONNECT + Insulate (!!!)
D 2 --> C 1
D 8 --> C 15
D 12 --> DISCONNECT if present, new wire needed for
MAF Burn-off relay if using Hot-wire MAF
D 13 --> C 2
D 14 --> DISCONNECT + Insulate (!!!)
D 15 --> D 16
D 16 --> D 15
ALDL E --> ALDL M
Need to make sure MAF is grounded after this swap, as A11 is left empty. 165 may want MAF ground at pin A11. This will require actual testing. Please feel free to post any other issues you see.
Chart removed.. again, one of these giant things per thread is enough :)
It could be a *while* before I finish the javascript that should make that whole table make sense.. so if you're feeling gutsy, work with that thing for now.
There may also be an ERROR concerning the translation of the terms "A/C Fan Request" and "A/C Pressure Switch" ... not quite sure what to do with it.
This thread is going active again!!! *pats the 749 sitting next to him*
I'm going to be going over the data on the repin over the next couple weeks preparing for a dry run (power only) and add one system at a time, making sure everything works. Figure 2-3 months before I'm done with the swap, working on it every once in a while.
If someone can find *this* image (all ECU pinouts, their name, and exactly what they connect to, with pretty drawings, on one page, or two considering the extra connector the 749 uses) for a Syclone, Typhoon, or Turbo Sunbird, I will love you forever.
Originally posted by TechSmurf If someone can find *this* image (all ECU pinouts, their name, and exactly what they connect to, with pretty drawings, on one page, or two considering the extra connector the 749 uses) for a Syclone, Typhoon, or Turbo Sunbird, I will love you forever.
Thanks, didn't think to check in there... but it's still not exactly what I was looking for. The incomplete multi-page sunbird ones have also been sitting in my printer output tray since before I made that request. I'm looking for that particular image because of how complete it is.
29C256s are in... buddy ordered the wrong ZIF sockets though. don't particularly even want to attempt connecting the huge aries ZIF to the memcal, so waiting on low profile sockets. ah well
unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU
Ok, as one of those types this is quite interesting.
Lots of questions but one that bugs me is that the 165 appears to have only one injector driver (D15 and D16 connected together) at least according to the schematics. However, the pin outs for the V8 cars show two outputs for each bank of injectors.
Is there one driver or two in the 165? Are the schematics wrong? If there is only one driver is it compatible with the driving all the V6 injectors at once?
Frank
PS: If this belongs in a separate thread let me know.
__________________ "I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." - Harry Truman
In order of road worthiness:
1991 BMW 535i 5-Speed
1963 Chevy Nova Wagon 350/350
1999 Buell S3T
1964 Sunbeam Tiger 331 Stroker
1973 MGB-GT soon to have a 3.1L V6
1986 Camaro parting out
You guys know a lot more, ok everything about this than I'll ever know, but can I get a little bit of that knowledge from you?
How do you feel about the pinouts under the dash of an 88 L98 camaro on the ecm and the pinouts on the harness under the dash of an 85 camaro with the 4 bbl carb 305?
Can I just plug in the 88's ecm or will I need to change dash over if I dont want to repinn?
Originally posted by Geyservillebob unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU
Ok, as one of those types this is quite interesting.
Lots of questions but one that bugs me is that the 165 appears to have only one injector driver (D15 and D16 connected together) at least according to the schematics. However, the pin outs for the V8 cars show two outputs for each bank of injectors.
Is there one driver or two in the 165? Are the schematics wrong? If there is only one driver is it compatible with the driving all the V6 injectors at once?
Frank
PS: If this belongs in a separate thread let me know.
Both the '165 and the '730 ECM have one injector driver. Either ECM can drive up to 8 saturated injectors.
I'd bet the '7302 also has one driver {edit: lost that bet, the '7302 has two drivers, both driven at the same time}.
Originally posted by 88to85rescam You guys know a lot more, ok everything about this than I'll ever know, but can I get a little bit of that knowledge from you?
How do you feel about the pinouts under the dash of an 88 L98 camaro on the ecm and the pinouts on the harness under the dash of an 85 camaro with the 4 bbl carb 305?
Can I just plug in the 88's ecm or will I need to change dash over if I dont want to repinn?
Good possibility the dash plugs are identical (between an '85 & '88 Camaro). If not then very close. Between the dash and the ECM it will be items such as the VSS, SES light, and ? (has to be another).
Originally posted by TechSmurf 29C256s are in... buddy ordered the wrong ZIF sockets though. don't particularly even want to attempt connecting the huge aries ZIF to the memcal, so waiting on low profile sockets. ah well
Hah.. yanno, the sad thing is I ended up using an extra socket as a riser to make the low profile socket clear the netres anyway, so it's still almost that tall :P
That almost fits under the stock cover as it sits, but the ZIF is just pushed into a normal push in socket that is soldered to the memcal so when I have a tune that I like I can just pop the zif out, pop the chip in, button it all up and it’s done.
I did have to modify the KS board to sit lower and in a slightly different position then it does from the factory to clear the big overhang on that socket, but that wasn’t a big deal really.
The whole thing was part of my 165/730/749 swap, which only really took me an hour of actual repining (and worked out of the box once I figured out that tunerpro was calculating checksums incorrectly), but that was because in the end I ignored much of what was already up out there when I found that some of the pinout on the speedtoys and linked sites didn’t actually work out right according to the factory wiring diagrams. At some point I’ll have to type those up and post them somewhere to prevent all the “I did it like it said and it won’t run/idle/whatever right…” posts.
Hay guys I am trying to dig stuff up on the 165 to 749 ECM swap . I am a little affraid to start doing it but ... I kinda have to if I wanna get the most out of my turbo setup.
couple of questions if you don;t mind....
Thats last chart posted has the pinouts on it and I am just trying to understand it. Under the 165 heading ( just picking a random thing)
CON Serial Data (ALDL E/M) (Orn) A8 A8 A8 A9
the pin on the ecm for 165 is A8 ..then to convert I would pull this wire out of the plug at that location and put it in the A9 slot ? What goes in the location I just pulled the wire out of ?
Here is another one
NC TCC (Tan/Blk) A7 A7 F6 F4
Acoording to the above legend ( in the document) it says NC = not connected . But would I still take the wire from the A7 location and move it to the f4 location ?
Thaxn for all the help on this . I wasn;t sure if I should have made a new post or not . This is one of them topics that start out with alot of confussion for me
thanx again
__________________ PROJECT UGLY DUCKLING
1989 10:1 353 L98Edlebrock base and runners ( really ported)ZZ4cam ,1 3/4 SLP shorties 083 heads ...cleaned up andstuded w/1.52 rr , LT4 valve springs and retainers and a 3 angle valve job
suspension mods (Hotchkis LCA's PH bar, KYB shocks and struts)
T-5 3.73
T-62 turbo to be installed next ...Exhaust clip ...gota let it load.... http://media.putfile.com/My-exhaust-clip
Originally posted by D's89IROCZ Hay guys I am trying to dig stuff up on the 165 to 749 ECM swap . I am a little affraid to start doing it but ... I kinda have to if I wanna get the most out of my turbo setup.
couple of questions if you don;t mind....
Thats last chart posted has the pinouts on it and I am just trying to understand it. Under the 165 heading ( just picking a random thing)
CON Serial Data (ALDL E/M) (Orn) A8 A8 A8 A9
the pin on the ecm for 165 is A8 ..then to convert I would pull this wire out of the plug at that location and put it in the A9 slot ? What goes in the location I just pulled the wire out of ?
Here is another one
NC TCC (Tan/Blk) A7 A7 F6 F4
Acoording to the above legend ( in the document) it says NC = not connected . But would I still take the wire from the A7 location and move it to the f4 location ?
Thaxn for all the help on this . I wasn;t sure if I should have made a new post or not . This is one of them topics that start out with alot of confussion for me
thanx again
also . I am seeing that some pins are located to a spot that starts with an F ...I don't see that location on any of the punout locations you guys posted up ? Kinda confused here
__________________ PROJECT UGLY DUCKLING
1989 10:1 353 L98Edlebrock base and runners ( really ported)ZZ4cam ,1 3/4 SLP shorties 083 heads ...cleaned up andstuded w/1.52 rr , LT4 valve springs and retainers and a 3 angle valve job
suspension mods (Hotchkis LCA's PH bar, KYB shocks and struts)
T-5 3.73
T-62 turbo to be installed next ...Exhaust clip ...gota let it load.... http://media.putfile.com/My-exhaust-clip
Originally posted by D's89IROCZ the pin on the ecm for 165 is A8 ..then to convert I would pull this wire out of the plug at that location and put it in the A9 slot ? What goes in the location I just pulled the wire out of ?
Yep. A8->A9. What goes back into the position you just removed the wire from is of no relative concern. The position may have another function, or it may have no function, but it isn't something to think about when removing the pin. (In the case of '749/A8, that would seem to be no function)
Quote:
Acoording to the above legend ( in the document) it says NC = not connected . But would I still take the wire from the A7 location and move it to the f4 location ?
That's just the test status on my end. NC means I'm not using it and thus can't be personally 100% certain of correct function or repinning.
Quote:
also . I am seeing that some pins are located to a spot that starts with an F ...I don't see that location on any of the punout locations you guys posted up ? Kinda confused here
If you notice the picture of my adapter harness, P4 ecus have an extra connector (the yellow one, in this case). Those are the E/F rows.
Do I connect both D14 and D15 to C11 on the '730 harness? (Same with bank B/2 I assume?)
EDIT: OK, after looking at my '302 schematics I have determined that D15 and C15 are jumpers so I shouldn't have to connect them to my '730 harness, right?
After checking each wire to make sure there would be no issues during my swap, I found that C10 on my '730 harness has no wire. I consulted my '730 schematic and determined that C12 is in fact the location for Injector Bank B/2, not C10 as shown above. If anyone has any info to the contrary, please post it as I am really wanting to get this swap done!
K , so the above two notpad documents .... they contradict eachother totally.
I am lost as to which pinout notes to use . The first one says one thing ..... the next one says totally different pinout locations .....what do I use ?
__________________ PROJECT UGLY DUCKLING
1989 10:1 353 L98Edlebrock base and runners ( really ported)ZZ4cam ,1 3/4 SLP shorties 083 heads ...cleaned up andstuded w/1.52 rr , LT4 valve springs and retainers and a 3 angle valve job
suspension mods (Hotchkis LCA's PH bar, KYB shocks and struts)
T-5 3.73
T-62 turbo to be installed next ...Exhaust clip ...gota let it load.... http://media.putfile.com/My-exhaust-clip
A2 - disconnect
A11- C12
B4 - B12
B-6 B12
B12- B12 *
C1-C1*
C9- D11
c12-c12 *
c15-c15*
D2-C1
D4-D4*
D8-C15
D11-D11*
D12- DISCONNECT ...new wire if needed
D13-D2
D14 UNUSED-D2 ( is theere a wire there in the first place ? )
D15-D16
D16-D15
the next notpad document gives these pinout changes ..
A1 -A11
?- F1
A3-F7*** ??? what does this mean ?
A4- E9
A5- E7
A7-F4
A7- F4? <--- do I change it or not ?
A8-A9
A9-E12
A10- C6
C12- F16
B2-E13 unused ???? what does that mean ..should i hook it up ?
B3-D9
D4-C8
B5-B8
B12- -- <---- WHat does that mean ?
B6-F10
-- - F9 <---- is that a jumper ? or what comes from there ??
-- - D13 <---- agian what is there in the first place
B10 - D16
C2-F4
C3-E6
C4- E5
C5- E3
C6- E4
C8-D14 see RFC's <--- what ar ethese RFCs?
D11 - nothing posted here ..what to do ?
C10-E16
C13-F13
C14-A5
C1-E8
D3- <--- nothing posted there ?
D5-c7
D6-E15
D7-E14
C15-D14 See RFCs <--- where are these ?
D10-D7
D12- -- Where does this go?
D2-B5
D15- C11
A11- -- Where does this go?
A2-F2
-- - B6 ??????? what goes there ?
-- - F15
-- - A4 ?????? what comes from there to A-4
New primarily theoretical line of discussion... unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU. Probably going to be doing a 7302 -> 7749 swap, but this is the easiest stepping stone (documentation-wise) to work out the bugs since 302 and 165 are fairly similar and 165 -> 749 is documented already.
Also unsure if the 7170 is the exact harness pinout for us LB8 guys. Planning on research here, but if anyone has some knowledge to throw in, please, by all means. As soon as I finish the list of pinout gripes I'll post it.
My son and I did a 350 conversion on his 85 jagxjs and are putting a twin turbo setup on it-it is his first car my first try at fuel injection-I have the pin swap on my harness for the 749 ecm but have no idea on how to convert the prom to 8 cyl-is there anybody who can get me started by setting my prom to 8 cyl to get started literally-we do custom interior work maybe a trade-or can I run a stock ecm and tune with timeing and larger injectors
