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02-03-2004, 02:31 PM
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#1 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | 1227302 to 1227165 swap
New primarily theoretical line of discussion... unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU. Probably going to be doing a 7302 -> 7749 swap, but this is the easiest stepping stone (documentation-wise) to work out the bugs since 302 and 165 are fairly similar and 165 -> 749 is documented already.
Current Info: Pinouts (without matching pin names) http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227170sheet4.gif http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227165sheet5.gif
Also unsure if the 7170 is the exact harness pinout for us LB8 guys. Planning on research here, but if anyone has some knowledge to throw in, please, by all means. As soon as I finish the list of pinout gripes I'll post it. |  
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02-03-2004, 03:34 PM
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#2 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | Link which further identifies some 165 pins http://speedtoys.com/~bort62/7749/86to92.txt | |
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02-03-2004, 04:19 PM
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#3 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | More links, more identification.
Good page with general info on 165 pinout http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/ecm_swap_730/
which leads to this diagram with full descriptions and WIRE COLORS.. behold  http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28...165v8tpi-6.jpg
I think we've got all the 165 info we need... now, if someone wouldn't mind actually giving me a bit of a hand, some info on the 302 would be much appreciated, because it's *not* out there.. and I know there's experts floating around here with more info than we really want to know about stored in their heads... | |
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02-03-2004, 04:23 PM
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#4 | | Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 7,320
Car: check Engine: check Transmission: check | Re: 1227302 to 1227165 swap
Quote: Originally posted by TechSmurf
New primarily theoretical line of discussion... unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU. Probably going to be doing a 7302 -> 7749 swap, but this is the easiest stepping stone (documentation-wise) to work out the bugs since 302 and 165 are fairly similar and 165 -> 749 is documented already.
Current Info: Pinouts (without matching pin names)
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227170sheet4.gif
http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/1227165sheet5.gif
Also unsure if the 7170 is the exact harness pinout for us LB8 guys. Planning on research here, but if anyone has some knowledge to throw in, please, by all means. As soon as I finish the list of pinout gripes I'll post it. | I was wondering when someone would do this swap. For full wiring diagrams of the '165 as used in f-body's go here: http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ecm_info/1227165/
You may be able to ask Mr. TuneUp (over on the v6 board) if he can get you the wiring diagrams for the V6 MAF harness. Between the two the ECM swap will be much easier.
As for the MAF itself IIRC the V6 MAFS are a frequency output. There are two different code masks that run in the f-body '165: $32B & $6E. Only the $32B mask can handle the frequency MAF. Of course can swap to a V8 analog MAF and use either mask.
RBob. | |
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02-03-2004, 04:28 PM
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#5 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: In reality
Posts: 7,554
Car: An Ol Buick Engine: Vsick Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter | Re: 1227302 to 1227165 swap
Exactly what are you trying to accomplice?.
If you want a v6 P4 high frequency MAF then you might investigate the 8352. While the cal only goes to like 170 Gm/sec, using an LT MAF and frequency charts would give you the 255.
All in theory mind you, the 8253 being for DIS, you'd have a steep curve on learning the ecm but it'd be kinda neat, I think. | |
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02-03-2004, 08:59 PM
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#6 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | I'm just trying to accomplish gathering enough information to feel 100% certain about the swap. In reality, I won't be facing the MAF issue, since as I said I'm heading in the Sy/Ty 7749 direction... the 302 and 165 use a very similar pinout.. many seem to match up directly.
Seeing as the 302 to 165 swap seems fairly straight foward, once enough data has been gathered to go 165, using the 165 to 7730 and 165 to 7749 swap guides opens up pandora's box for the V6s. I'd really prefer to move away from maf, but this is just the easiest step to get the project to a point where readily available documentation becomes useful.
I've been staring at pinouts of the 165 from various sources and the one pinout of the 302 that I have, and should have an initial pinout conversion alpha chart tonight for review. | |
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02-03-2004, 09:23 PM
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#7 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/pub/gmecm/manu...9-165v8MAF.jpg
Particularly useful. Thanks, Rbob.  Quote: | You may be able to ask Mr. TuneUp (over on the v6 board) if he can get you the wiring diagrams for the V6 MAF harness. Between the two the ECM swap will be much easier. |
A PM to TomP will be out hopefully getting him to chime in momentarily. Good suggestion, was considering it myself. Call it a majority vote now Quote: | As for the MAF itself IIRC the V6 MAFS are a frequency output. There are two different code masks that run in the f-body '165: $32B & $6E. Only the $32B mask can handle the frequency MAF. Of course can swap to a V8 analog MAF and use either mask. | Yep. Ghetto V6 mafs are frequency film. One of the main reasons I would do this, were I going to do this, or if I do this, would be to get a hot-wire MAF so I can run blow-through. If anyone wants to do this and keep the frequency film MAF, power to them, but I'm not doing the footwork there.  | |
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02-03-2004, 09:55 PM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | Pulled, new diagram below.
(These diagrams are huge.. one per page is enough )
Last edited by TechSmurf : 02-05-2004 at 09:03 PM.
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02-05-2004, 05:24 PM
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#9 | | Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 7,320
Car: check Engine: check Transmission: check | Showed up in the snail-mailbox today. Scanned and posted. . . '87 MPFI V6.
RBob. | |
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02-05-2004, 06:05 PM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 3,826
Car: 1988 Chevy Camaro Hardtop Engine: Turbocharged/Intercooled 3.1 Transmission: World Class T5 5 Speed | That's a big.... You Rock! | |
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02-05-2004, 08:31 PM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | Rbob...
:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: | |
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02-05-2004, 09:19 PM
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#12 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | Pinout Swap Diagram, take 2 Code: Pin 302 165 SOLUTION
A1 Fuel Pump Relay Fuel Pump Relay OK
A2 A/C Clutch AIR Valve - Port DISCONNECT
A3 AB_GATE Evap Purge OK
A4 AB_EGR EGR Control OK
A5 SES SES OK
A6 VIGN VIGN OK
A7 AB_TCC TCC/SHIFT OK
A8 ALDL ALDL (data) OK
A9 DIAG DIAG (mode) OK
A10 VSS VSS OK
A11 MAT MAF GND 302 A11 -> 165 C12
A12 GND GND (Chassis) OK
B1 BATT BATT OK
B2 Fuel Pump Signal Fuel Pump Signal OK
B3 ESTLO EST Ref Low OK
B4 EST -UNUSED- 302 B4 -> 165 D4
B5 ESTHI Dist. Ref (ESTHI) OK
B6 MAF Signal VATS (Unused) 302 B6 -> 165 B12
B7 KNOCK (Unused?) KNOCK OK (No Knock Sensor?)
B8 A/C Request A/C Request OK
B9 PSPS (power steering) -UNUSED- DISCONNECT TPI =No PS Switch
B10 Park/Neutral Park/Neutral OK
B11 -UNUSED- -UNUSED- (ESC) OK
B12 -UNUSED- MAF Signal 302 B6 -> 165 B12
C1 no connection FAN 302 D2 -> 165 C1
C2 AIR Conv Solenoid AIR Conv Valve OK
C3 IAC BLO IAC "B" LO OK
C4 IAC BHI IAC "B" HI OK
C5 IAC AHI IAC "A" HI OK
C6 IAC ALO IAC "A" LO OK
C7 -UNUSED- -UNUSED- OK
C8 4th Gear Signal 4th Gear (Unused?) OK
C9 A/C Fan Req -UNUSED- 302 C9 -> 165 D11
C10 CTS CTS OK
C11 -UNUSED- (MAP) -UNUSED- (MAP) OK
C12 TPS Back-up MAT Signal 302 A11 -> 165 C12
C13 TPS Signal TPS Signal OK
C14 TPS +5V Reference TPS +5V Reference OK
C15 -> D14 (INJ135) EGR Diag 302 D8 -> 165 C15, 302 C15 DISC
C16 BATT BATT OK
D1 GND GND (Chassis) OK
D2 FAN GND (CTS/TPS/MAT) 302 D2 -> 165 C1, 302 D13 -> 165 D2
D3 -UNUSED- (8CYL) GND (Chassis) OK (May require no ground)
D4 -UNUSED- EST (Ctrl) 302 B4 -> 165 D4
D5 BYPASS BYPASS (EST) OK
D6 02LO O2LO (GND) OK
D7 O2HI O2HI (Signal) OK
D8 EGR Diag Switch -UNUSED- (MAP2) 302 D8 -> 165 C15
D9 -UNUSED- -UNUSED- (INJSENSE) OK
D10 GND GND (Chassis) OK
D11 -UNUSED- A/C Pressure Switch 302 C9 -> 165 D11
D12 GND/UNUSED MAF Burn Off DISCONNECT, New wire if needed
D13 GND (CTS/TPS/MAT) -UNUSED- 302 D13 -> 165 D2
D14 INJ135 -UNUSED- 302 D14 DISCONNECT
D15 INJ246 INJ (1357) 302 D15 -> 165 D16
D16 -> INJ246 -> INJ (2468) 302 D16 -> 165 D15 This leaves the non-OK as: Code: Pin 302 165 SOLUTION
A2 A/C Clutch AIR Valve - Port DISCONNECT
A11 MAT MAF GND 302 A11 -> 165 C12
B4 EST -UNUSED- 302 B4 -> 165 D4
B6 MAF Signal VATS (Unused) 302 B6 -> 165 B12
B7 KNOCK (Unused?) KNOCK (No Knock Sensor?)
B9 PSPS (power steering) -UNUSED- DISCONNECT TPI =No PS Switch
B12 -UNUSED- MAF Signal 302 B6 -> 165 B12
C1 no connection FAN 302 D2 -> 165 C1
C9 A/C Fan Req -UNUSED- 302 C9 -> 165 D11
C12 TPS Back-up MAT Signal 302 A11 -> 165 C12
C15 -> D14 (INJ135) EGR Diag 302 D8 -> 165 C15, 302 C15 DISC
D2 FAN GND (CTS/TPS/MAT) 302 D2 -> 165 C1, 302 D13 -> 165 D2
D3 -UNUSED- (8CYL) GND (Chassis) OK (May require no ground)
D4 -UNUSED- EST (Ctrl) 302 B4 -> 165 D4
D8 EGR Diag Switch -UNUSED- (MAP2) 302 D8 -> 165 C15
D11 -UNUSED- A/C Pressure Switch 302 C9 -> 165 D11
D12 GND/UNUSED MAF Burn Off DISCONNECT, New wire if needed
D13 GND (CTS/TPS/MAT) -UNUSED- 302 D13 -> 165 D2
D14 INJ135 -UNUSED- 302 D14 DISCONNECT
D15 INJ246 INJ (1357) 302 D15 -> 165 D16
D16 -> INJ246 -> INJ (2468) 302 D16 -> 165 D15 Which gives us what appears to be a good conversion.
Harness repin, in 302 order Code: A 2 --> DISCONNECT + Insulate
A 11 --> C 12
B 4 --> D 4
B 6 --> B 12
B 7 -- New wire to ESC module pin B (unless
we really do have a knock sensor already)
B 9 --> DISCONNECT + Insulate
C 9 --> D 11
C 12 --> DISCONNECT + Insulate (!!!)
C 15 --> DISCONNECT + Insulate (!!!)
D 2 --> C 1
D 8 --> C 15
D 12 --> DISCONNECT if present, new wire needed for
MAF Burn-off relay if using Hot-wire MAF
D 13 --> C 2
D 14 --> DISCONNECT + Insulate (!!!)
D 15 --> D 16
D 16 --> D 15
ALDL E --> ALDL M Need to make sure MAF is grounded after this swap, as A11 is left empty. 165 may want MAF ground at pin A11. This will require actual testing. Please feel free to post any other issues you see.
Last edited by TechSmurf : 02-05-2004 at 09:58 PM.
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02-06-2004, 07:45 AM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | Here's that Pandora's Box I was talking about... Code: Chart removed.. again, one of these giant things per thread is enough :) It could be a *while* before I finish the javascript that should make that whole table make sense.. so if you're feeling gutsy, work with that thing for now.
There may also be an ERROR concerning the translation of the terms "A/C Fan Request" and "A/C Pressure Switch" ... not quite sure what to do with it.
Last edited by TechSmurf : 07-28-2004 at 04:12 AM.
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07-25-2004, 03:53 AM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | This thread is going active again!!! *pats the 749 sitting next to him*
I'm going to be going over the data on the repin over the next couple weeks preparing for a dry run (power only) and add one system at a time, making sure everything works. Figure 2-3 months before I'm done with the swap, working on it every once in a while. | |
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07-26-2004, 06:13 AM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | If someone can find *this* image (all ECU pinouts, their name, and exactly what they connect to, with pretty drawings, on one page, or two considering the extra connector the 749 uses) for a Syclone, Typhoon, or Turbo Sunbird, I will love you forever. ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/pub/gmecm/manu...9-165v8MAF.jpg | |
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07-26-2004, 07:10 AM
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#16 | | Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 7,320
Car: check Engine: check Transmission: check | Quote: Originally posted by TechSmurf
If someone can find *this* image (all ECU pinouts, their name, and exactly what they connect to, with pretty drawings, on one page, or two considering the extra connector the 749 uses) for a Syclone, Typhoon, or Turbo Sunbird, I will love you forever.
ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/pub/gmecm/manu...9-165v8MAF.jpg | Not exactly the same but over on gmecm, under ECM's, 1227749 is the Turbo Sunbird. Someplace on incoming are the Sy/Ty's (SyTyWiring.zip).
RBob. | |
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07-26-2004, 12:30 PM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | Said file is in ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/uploads/
Thanks, didn't think to check in there... but it's still not exactly what I was looking for. The incomplete multi-page sunbird ones have also been sitting in my printer output tray since before I made that request. I'm looking for that particular image because of how complete it is. | |
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07-28-2004, 04:13 AM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | It's coming together a bit more Code: Chart moved... agian....
Last edited by TechSmurf : 12-06-2005 at 11:27 AM.
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12-17-2004, 01:14 AM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | And here's a 302->749 adapter, mostly complete | |
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12-17-2004, 09:26 AM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Ontario/Nova Scotia
Posts: 1,146
Car: BERLINETTA Engine: 2.8 Transmission: 700R4 | youre crazy | |
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01-07-2005, 07:44 PM
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#21 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | 29C256s are in... buddy ordered the wrong ZIF sockets though. don't particularly even want to attempt connecting the huge aries ZIF to the memcal, so waiting on low profile sockets. ah well | |
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01-14-2005, 05:59 PM
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#22 | | Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 213
Car: 1989 Camaro RS Engine: 2.8L Transmission: T5 | Nice work TechSmurf! Looking forward to the next update... | |
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02-14-2005, 12:48 PM
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#23 | | Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 62
Car: '63 Nova Wagon these days Engine: 3.1L V6 Transmission: 5-speed | unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU
Ok, as one of those types this is quite interesting.
Lots of questions but one that bugs me is that the 165 appears to have only one injector driver (D15 and D16 connected together) at least according to the schematics. However, the pin outs for the V8 cars show two outputs for each bank of injectors.
Is there one driver or two in the 165? Are the schematics wrong? If there is only one driver is it compatible with the driving all the V6 injectors at once?
Frank
PS: If this belongs in a separate thread let me know.
__________________
"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." - Harry Truman
In order of road worthiness:
1991 BMW 535i 5-Speed
1963 Chevy Nova Wagon 350/350
1999 Buell S3T
1964 Sunbeam Tiger 331 Stroker
1973 MGB-GT soon to have a 3.1L V6
1986 Camaro parting out | |
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02-15-2005, 08:15 AM
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#24 | | Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 25
Car: 97' aurora and 85 camaro - 88 camaro Engine: 355 tpi and 4.0 northstar Transmission: 350 turbo and 700-r4 | You guys know a lot more, ok everything about this than I'll ever know, but can I get a little bit of that knowledge from you?
How do you feel about the pinouts under the dash of an 88 L98 camaro on the ecm and the pinouts on the harness under the dash of an 85 camaro with the 4 bbl carb 305?
Can I just plug in the 88's ecm or will I need to change dash over if I dont want to repinn? | |
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02-15-2005, 01:54 PM
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#25 | | Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 7,320
Car: check Engine: check Transmission: check | Quote: Originally posted by Geyservillebob
unless there's a MAF sixer out there who wants to use a P4 ECU
Ok, as one of those types this is quite interesting.
Lots of questions but one that bugs me is that the 165 appears to have only one injector driver (D15 and D16 connected together) at least according to the schematics. However, the pin outs for the V8 cars show two outputs for each bank of injectors.
Is there one driver or two in the 165? Are the schematics wrong? If there is only one driver is it compatible with the driving all the V6 injectors at once?
Frank
PS: If this belongs in a separate thread let me know. | Both the '165 and the '730 ECM have one injector driver. Either ECM can drive up to 8 saturated injectors.
I'd bet the '7302 also has one driver {edit: lost that bet, the '7302 has two drivers, both driven at the same time}.
RBob.
Last edited by RBob : 02-15-2005 at 02:24 PM.
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02-15-2005, 01:56 PM
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#26 | | Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Chasing Electrons
Posts: 7,320
Car: check Engine: check Transmission: check | Quote: Originally posted by 88to85rescam
You guys know a lot more, ok everything about this than I'll ever know, but can I get a little bit of that knowledge from you?
How do you feel about the pinouts under the dash of an 88 L98 camaro on the ecm and the pinouts on the harness under the dash of an 85 camaro with the 4 bbl carb 305?
Can I just plug in the 88's ecm or will I need to change dash over if I dont want to repinn? | Good possibility the dash plugs are identical (between an '85 & '88 Camaro). If not then very close. Between the dash and the ECM it will be items such as the VSS, SES light, and ? (has to be another).
RBob. | |
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12-06-2005, 11:25 AM
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#27 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,353
Car: 2000 Camaro Engine: 3800-II Transmission: T5 | Alright! The 749 is in! Car starts... isn't totally happy, but I'm pretty sure that's a spark problem. Code: CON == Connected as shown NC == Not Connected NEW == New Wire
PROV == Connected and Proven (Via Datalog or Function)
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Function (Note) (Color on 302) 302 165 730 749
PROV Fuel Pump Relay (Dk Grn/Wht) A1 A1 A11 A11
NC A/C Clutch (Lt Blu) A2 F1
NC Evap Purge (Dk Grn/Yel) A3 A3 F7 F7 ***
NC EGR Control (Gry) A4 A4 E9 E9
PROV SES (Brn/Wht) A5 A5 E7 E7
PROV VIGN (Ignition-On) (Pnk/Blk) A6 A6 A6 A6
NC TCC (Tan/Blk) A7 A7 F6 F4
NC SHIFT A7 A7 F1 (F4?)
CON Serial Data (ALDL E/M) (Orn) A8 A8 A8 A9
CON Diagnostic (ALDL B) (Wht/Blk) A9 A9 E12 E12
NC VSS Signal Input (Brn) A10 A10 C6 C6
NC MAT Signal Input (B) (Tan) A11 C12 F16 F16
PROV GND (Chassis/ALDL A) (Blk/Wht) A12 A12 A12 A12
PROV +12V Constant (Orn) B1 B1 B1 B1
NC Fuel Pump Signal (Tan/Wht) B2 B2 E13 E13 (Unused?)
CON EST Dist. Ref Low (Blk/Red) B3 B3 D9 D9
CON EST Signal Output (Wht) B4 D4 C8 C8
CON EST Dist. Ref High (Ppl/Wht) B5 B5 D8 D8
NC Digital MAF Signal (Brn/Wht) B6 -- -- --
NC Analog MAF Signal -- B12 -- --
NC ???VATS B6 F10 F10???
NC EST Retard (Knock Sensor IN) -- -- F9 F9
NC A/C Request (Dk Grn/Wht) B8 B8 C9 C9
NC PSPS (power steering) (Gry) B9 -- D13
NC Park/Neutral Switch (Orn/Blk) B10 B10 D16 D16
NC AIR Conv Solenoid (Brn) C2 C2 F4 F4
CON IAC "B" LO (Lt Grn/Blk) C3 C3 E6 E6
CON IAC "B" HI (Lt Grn/Wht) C4 C4 E5 E5
CON IAC "A" HI (Lt Blu/Wht) C5 C5 E3 E3
CON IAC "A" LO (Lt Blu/Blk) C6 C6 E4 E4
NC 4th Gear Signal (Lt Blu) C8 C8 D14 D14 (See RFCs)
NC A/C Fan Req (Blu) | | | |
