DSGx

I am very interested in the ebl system for my tbi bird, and i would like to know what exactly is the ve learn feature on the ebl system that everyone talks about. Do u just playback ur datalogs with ve learn on and the system will automatically make adjustments according to the datalogs ? Please someone tell me how this works, i wanna learn as much as i can before i drop 300+ bucks for the system.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

This can get long, but I'll try to keep it short. VE (volumetric efficiency), are basically the fueling tables. They define the volume of fuel delivered versus engine RPM and load. In a speed density system they are paramount to getting a decent AFR for best power, emissions, and lean cruise.

The VE Learn alleviates 90% of the tuners work on creating the proper values for the VE tables. Using either the NB O2 sensor, or a WB O2 set up, the VE learn creates the proper values. This is done by the tuner driving around, and holding the gas pedal at various loads and RPM.

Adjusting/creating the VE table manually is tedious. The VE Learn takes 90% of this and does it automatically. This frees up the tuner and makes tuner faster.

A VE Learn can be done while driving around. It may also be done from a saved data log. Myself, I usually start a learn, drive around for 10 -1 5 minutes at operating temperature. Then pull over (into a shopping center or such).

The WUD displays the corrections made, and if they look OK, then flash the new calibration ito the ECM. Then drive around some more. Some ask, "how do i know that it looks OK?" Well, are the vales converging to < 3% correction? Is it getting better every time I flash a new calibration into the ECM? Common sense stuff.

RBob.

DSGx

ty, u know cuz i was actually looking into swaping my l03 for a carb 350, but now im thinking of doaing a tbi 350 swap with good heads and cam and this system seems like the perfect way to go.

Chuck!

RBob,

When using learn with a WB, do you recommend leaving it in open loop?

Thanks
Chuck

Duts87ss

iTrader: (10)

When doing learns with a wide band, yes, you'll leave the system in open loop (no feedback from the O2 sensor).

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

This is not EBL but it is WB related. Thread is called "WB tuning in closed loop". A bit over my head. Innovate WB instructions explain how to ditch the NB and use it the WB to simulate NB. I believe that is closed loop tuning with WB

EDIT

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...osed-loop.html.

Chuck!

Thanks guys!

Jabpir8

Could you tell a bit more about the close loop and the open loop ?
I don't get it yet.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

see the stickies above. CL is feedback from active 02 sensor. OL is without that feedback. An example of OL is when coolant temp is <160F.

Jabpir8

Saw the sticky but did not tell me when to work on OL when hot ?

it doesn't explain when and why.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

It is best to not modify the OL tables on a stock to mildly modified engine. Pretty much leave as is unless you need to improve drivability. My original stock EBL .bin I think I enrichened 3% (factor .97). That was the extent of my OL table changes. I do not have cats nor emishions. I believe the OL afr/coolant/rpm are also affected by BPC. I am sure thre are other modifiers as well in the calc. Choke/crank/AE may be based on that table as well(not positive). Again modifiers on that as well. I presume you are not disallowing CL operation? I ran soley OL for a season and due tio ever changing air temps in Wisconsin it was never "right on". My WB reported lean one day and rich the other. Plus my gas mileage sucked.

Jabpir8

back on the subject ...

I have started VE learn process on my 92 RMW (350 TBI).
For example at idle I came to a -13 correction.
On the other area in the table it is generaly -3 to -7 corrections.

What does it mean ? Is my 9C1 (police) home made exhaust without Cat and K&N intake so efficient that my stock L05 engine breathes so good that I need less fuel ??

Or is this engine so bad (with the OEM heads and cams) that air cannot get in and therefore VE learn removes quite a lot of fuel to get stochiometric mixture ???

I have 12 psi fuel pressure and stock injectors are (unless I am wrong) 61 lbs/hr so it makes a BPC calculation of 144 (with EBL utility tool).
Do I have to correct this value (UP) to catch reality and limit the corrections that are made during VE learn ?

Just trying to figure out what those corrections really mean ...

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

set the BPC to what the calc shows. BPC is CID-fuel injector flow-fuel pressure. How does it idle with the -13 correction? that is a good SOP to determine if it really needs less fuel. with a -13 correction you may want to look at the graph and see if the surrounding cells need smoothing. VE learn already smoothens but just take a look if there is a noticible valley.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The BPC is a little high for that set up. The stock value is 135 (AYKC).

If you have the numbers from the top of an injector I may be able to tell you whether they are the 61 #/hr or 65 #/hr units. Although with the stock BPC of 135 they are most likely the 61 #/hr injectors.

RBob.

xch3no2

-13 is a percentage of the VE value in that cell.

That's The EBL doing it's job telling you you have a rich spot, might be indicating good engine efficiency. I enjoy hand smoothing my tables.


If your injectors are actually flowing more (or less) than what they are rated for, or that you think they are (not unheard of) BPC may need adjustment. This is the only time I would stray from calculated BPC. I also was wondering why you had it @ 144. Most bins are 134-5.

This,for me, shows up as the EBL either over or under corrects during learns...you gotta get it right for the right corrections to be made.

Jabpir8

Injectors are GM 5235206

Most forums claim they are 55 lbs/hr (BPC 157) but people also say they are generally tested at 61 lbs/hr (BPC 142) so ...
Note: BPC at 144 is for 60 lbs/hr which is wrong, will correct that !

I have BATJ calibration by the way ... (you have one Email from France pending answers in your Outlook Bob I think )

xch3no2

I call 'em 61's. I think it's better that we all identify injectors by their part #'s to avoid confusion.

If you want to know what they flow, off to WitchHunter they go.

RBob types much faster than I. lol

Jabpir8

Well if I enter V8 2 injectors TBI with 12 psi and 61 lb/hr in the EBL utility program the outcome is 142.

135 would be for higher flow injectors or higher fuel pressure ...

I plan to modify the fuel pressure regulator anyway to get 14 psi or so ...

In the end I still not get what the VE table means practically.
Does a value refers to the volume that enters the engine or the cycles of injectors firing or what ???
Once I get it clear I will better understand what I do when I move a value in the VE table

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I think the ECU uses it table as a value of fueling. I believe the injectors open-close-open-close and their open time(msec) is determined by those values in VE table. Also there are a bunch of modifiers and are added less so subtracted to deliver the correct fuel for the circumstance such as PE(WOT) and AE(aka pumpshot). If values are not spot on(128) for a specific day(temp?) the BLM changes with feedback from 02 and fueling is corrected. Read the stickies above as they explain completely,

xch3no2

Then use 61 @ 13psi, their rated pressure...136BPC...you'll get the hang of it.

Yes, VE table values are fuel multipliers, based on BPC, VAC & RPM.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The 5235206 injectors are 61 #/hr.

In the EBL Utility try 348 ci (the actual displacement), 13 psi (stock rating), and 61.1 #/hr. It ends up at 135. While 61.0 #/hr ends up at 136 for the BPC.

Just checked BATJ and the BPC is also at 135.

For the email, can you send it again. I don't believe that I have any unanswered ones.

RBob.