Ghettobird52

Hello there I am getting my ebl flash today and I know I'm going to have plenty of questions so I am staring this thread for me an any others that are tuning with ebl flash to have a place to ask questions! Get ready for this thread to stay at the top! my first post will be when I First install my ebl ( took the day off work to sit on my porch and wait for ups )

kataklysm01

First question; should tuning be done in Open Loop by disabling closed loop? Or is the point of the closed loop learning to make the vehicle driveable and then adjust for open loop(heavy throttle/load)? Because I've noticed that closed loop is only on during light load/cruise.

Second; If using a wideband, can one use an AFR table so that the ECM corrects the VE table to attain the set AFR based on power settings (AF=12.*) vs cruise (AF=14.*)?

Third; is tuning with a NB O2 such a pain?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Big thread on the tuning of the EBL:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...uning-ebl.html

> First question; should tuning be done in Open Loop by disabling closed loop?

Both. Start with closed loop (as mentioned in your other thread) VE Learns. Then move on to open loop auto VE Learns.

> Or is the point of the closed loop learning to make the vehicle driveable and then adjust for open loop(heavy throttle/load)?

Yes.

> Because I've noticed that closed loop is only on during light load/cruise.

Disable highway mode via the MPH threshold (set it high).

> Second; If using a wideband, can one use an AFR table so that the ECM corrects the VE table to attain the set AFR based on power settings (AF=12.*) vs cruise (AF=14.*)?

Yes.

> Third; is tuning with a NB O2 such a pain?

No, it is straight forward and easy.

RBob.

Ghettobird52

So far I am loving this thing!!! First off I just want to say this is a great product and it is well worth the $$$$. First off that rough idle my car had? Gone.(remember Iam running a L05 with 305 fuel injectors) Power already feels stronger (5learns) and my gas mileage has gone from my first tune at 9.1 average mpg and now 5 learns later at 15.2 average mpg! So it feels great! And as I think intro to tuning says " rough engine feels fast but is slow, a fast engine is smooth" and that's exactly how my car feels BUT my gauges on the what's up display are going crazy ( or am I not knowing that this is how they should look?) so to start with my knock count is INSANE at 30258 after 5 VE learns. I hear no knocking from engine (hood open and in car) and it starts to go up when I hit the brake? I had it in park and revved the engine to 2000 rpm and the knock count did not increase. So why the crazy count???
2nd the O2 gauge jumps around varying around from 390 to 700 I believe I seen. What is that usually suppossed to be? I got no codes or SES light.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

> I hear no knocking from engine (hood open and in car) and it starts to go up when
> I hit the brake? I had it in park and revved the engine to 2000 rpm and the
> knock count did not increase. So why the crazy count???

False knock. There is something that is hitting someplace. Lots of things can cause false knock. Exhaust rattle, plugs wires too close to the EFI harness, bad accessory bearing, broken/cracked accessory bracket, and so on.

> 2nd the O2 gauge jumps around varying around from 390 to 700 I believe I seen.

Normal when the ECM is in closed loop. The proportional gains are used to force the AFR to oscillate around stoich. Which is what you are seeing with the O2 sensor output (NB).

RBob.

Ghettobird52

Thanks for that. So now my VE learning is 0 things out? I have i reached the end? And the Inj- mpg flow constant is set at stock 54 #\Hr ?? What is this and what should it be?

Ghettobird52

And I am right now in the process of putting a 350 tbi unit on (61pph) should I continue using this tune I have and change what? Or start over with a LO5 tune that comes alon with ebl? PleasE help! Thanks

RBob

iTrader: (1)

If the corrections are 0 and there is good coverage, then good to go.

The "INJ - MPG Injector Flow Constant" is for the WUD to calculate the fuel consumed and MPG. It isn't used by the ECM, so can tweak it as required to get spot-on MPG figures (or Km/L figures).

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Sure, the tune is OK, right. Change the "BPC- BPC vs VAC" table for the higher flow rate. I'd do some VE Learns too.

May need to make other changes as the AE and proportional gains are PW based. But, need to see how they are first.

Be sure to change the MPG parameter as mentioned in the previous post.

As for using a 5.7l cal, maybe copy the SA tables over.

RBob.

Ghettobird52

So I copied the bpc-bpc VS vac ( on 305 tune it was 134, the 5.7 tue was 135?) table from bin #2009 and now and the sa main table, and now the int and blm value are off especially when I smash on it? Did I use correct table for my fuel injectors?

and on the INJ- MPG inj constant flow im not sure what this number still is? and what i should be putting it at, i didnt know my car could get 54miles to the gallon (or if any)which is what it is at right now. thank you for all your help

Ghettobird52

These fuel injectors are supposed to be stock size 350 5.7 truck. Maybe there not?

and on one last note i just used the EBL utility to find my value for my car. and it is bored .60 over (360 correct?) says 140. Should I use that value?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

61 lns injs 350 cid? what fuel pressure? 140 is correct for 13 lbs FP.

bpc-bpc VS vac. that table is for use with a VAFPR. If you are not referenced to VAC then you place the BPC in all areas of table. Like 140 top to bottom if 140 is correct.

Ghettobird52

yes at 13.0PSI i do not have a Fuel pressure regulator. Thank you for your answer im going to flash in 140 across the board and see how it runs. On the FPR note, are they worth getting? as in do i need it? thanks for input.

Ghettobird52

and im not sure if my engine has a VAFPR what is it?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I think you mean you do not have a VAFPR or vac referenced FPR. Yes 140 goes in all areas of that table. Reason is at all VAC your FP is consistent 13 lbs if all is well on supply side. VAFPR at idle or at max VAC the FP is less to allow a better idle quality. some say engine runs better with one but maybe not for all. It is desired when FP is much higher. Mine is set to 23 lbs today and 26 lbs(tomorrow) with 75 lbs injectors. Idle I am approx 14-16 lbs due to vac reference.

Ghettobird52

hmmm ok ok i understand you now, So i set it to 140 and car runs better great actually, i did a VE learn and there was big corrections in the negative side? (is this normal you bump the BPC-BPC VS VAC table and VE table goes down?)but its still showing that fueling is off. (int and blm have to be 128 for fueling to be correct right?) because at idle it is ok some times and other times not, then when i hit the gas the numbers slide in different areas some times the same. this did not happen with the 305 fuel injectors and 305 BPC-BPC VS VAC table (at 134) although the engine feels better? not rough but even smoother.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

If you idle at 70 vac(30MAP) and you have have a smaller number than it should be it will add a lot of excess fuel. Smaller number suggests a smaller inj so it releases more fuel. INT at 128 not necessarily. It is moving to allow one step on BLM to occur. It moves a considerable # to allow that one step on BLM. BLM 128 is desired but it will vary on air temps and barometric pressure. shoot for + or - 3. Expect cooler temps to add fuel (larger BLM)..

Ghettobird52

my idle in gear is at 49-50 map??? what does that mean? i didnt understand your last post im sorry in park its 38map. i have too much fuel? (its 140)

xch3no2

Nope, a "live" 128 is dead on no corrections. I don't sweat corrections under 7 the system is just doing it's job. Corrections over 10 indicate that the base map could use a little work IMO.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

140 is adding fuel 118 is removing fuel. 128 is perfection that you may only see occasionally due to changing environment.

you idle at 50 MAP? that suggestes a non "tuning friendly" cam. You may be seeing its affects if learn keeps adding in fuel at idle or just off idle. Keep an eye on 700-1300 rpms for consistently high BLM and a spike in VE values their vs higher rpm..

Ghettobird52

Nooooo my bpc bpc VS vac is 140, the int and blm go off now around 5+- each I'm jus wondering if I have too much fuel. And really? My VE table looks pretty solid and I have not manually changed it at all. And how do I know I'd it's throwing fuel at idle? I thought VE was all about air?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I was refering to 140 being a BLM. Yes I agree the BPC is 140. If you are using BLM to calc changes to VE table disregard INT. INT can be used instead of BLM but I prefer BLM. INT is helpfull to get a grasp on AE. More on that later.

VE is fuel table. + or - 5 is decent. + - 3 is a bit better. + -3 is where you may be close to perfect. Keep in mind when you are perfect and temp drops 20dF you will see >128 adding fuel. That is normal. Conversely my tune is for 65F if 90dF I will see BLM,128 removing fuel. all as it is expected.

as far as idle just look at VE table for larger than expected #s. Or BLM rising on the WU as you idle. There are threads on overlap with large cam. I bet your cam is large? I run a FT at 224/230 .05 114 lsa and my idle map is 25-29 depending on tune I run(SA idle and inj offsets))

Ghettobird52

hmm no way , my cam is mild (450 lift, all i can remember i lost the crane card) ahh ok ok. and so when i went to 140 the VE table started going into negatives (when i learned) now i went to 134 and the VE is going back up. should i try 137? 138? at 140 it was staying mildly around 128 only droping -+5 as i was saying. on 134 now it is always a different number except on decel. so im thinking some where in between 134-140... am i on the right track or off? im sorry for not knowing much >.< but i am very thankful for your help

EDIT: just looked at my datalog from last drive (bpc value at 134) and INT was128 and BLM was 131-132 for most part of drive, which means it is adding more fuel correct? so that means BPC value needs to go up correct?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Set BPC accurrately and forget about it...

Ghettobird52

I set it at 137, int moves a bit, blm stays at 127-129 on point rite? VE learns are negative out at the idle -1, -2 but it seems perfect. Ok so I got BPC value set correctly. My VE low speed looks great. Whats next should I look into? Anything I can get sme gas mileage out of? my mpg dropped a little sense the 350 tb swap.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Enable lean cruise highway mode and tune it a bit.

RBob.

kataklysm01

1)Sooo... I played with my throttle cable adjustment tonight. Found out, it's not the cable or pedal that prevents me from getting 100% TPS. I moved the throttle by hand and can only get to 98%. I get 99% if I force it. Is there some type of adjustment there?

2)We also installed the WB today. Now to get accustomed to that. I wired my NB gauge to the purple wire of the TT1. It's a sweeping gauge (needle), and it doesn't seem to follow what the WB shows at times. Maybe the gauge is crap afterall. I suppose it would be best to acquire a WB gauge or bolt the laptop to the dash of the truck. I'll have to do alot more driving to verify this.

3)If I understand from all the reading I've been doing. After doing all the steps to clear BLM and shutting off CL and PE. Open loop tuning with a WB for dummies goes like this; drive and if the WB is not reporting what the commanded Open loop AFR table says, you adjust the VE table until you get it.

4)Why is it that a WB goes farther down the exhaust than a NB?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

> moved the throttle by hand and can only get to 98%. I get 99% if I force it. Is
> there some type of adjustment there?

TPS - ADC Gain Term for TPS%

> the purple wire of the TT1. It's a sweeping gauge (needle), and it doesn't seem to follow

A needle NB gauge will never keep up with how quickly the O2 sensor reading changes.

> If I understand from all the reading I've been doing. After doing all the steps to clear BLM

The BLM is reset to 128 at key-on, no need to lock it. Leave PE mode enabled, your engine will thank you.

> drive and if the WB is not reporting what the commanded Open loop AFR table says,
> you adjust the VE table until you get it.

Yes. And if the AFR is already on the rich side, let the auto VE Learn make the adjustments for you.

> I suppose it would be best to acquire a WB gauge or bolt the laptop to
> the dash of the truck.

Use the data logging of the EBL/WUD. Then use the analysis functions of the WUD to get the information you need for tuning. If you try and use a WB gauge live how are you going to know what areas of the VE table to adjust?

> Why is it that a WB goes farther down the exhaust than a NB?

The Bosch WB sensor is sensitive to heat. Too close to the engine and the sensor dies.

RBob.

kataklysm01

TPS - ADC Gain Term for TPS% ? Could you elaborate a bit, I'm not seeing anything about this.

So a lot of those older post about tuning in Open Loop are obsolete? The EBL has been modified since to be able to take advantage of this. Will the VE modify based on the Open Loop - AFR vs RPM & VAC table? Or is it still a manual job using the logs..

RBob

iTrader: (1)

From the calibration help document included with the EBL:

"TPS Gain Term

Entry: TPS - ADC Gain Term for TPS%

This term is used to convert the raw TPS value to a percentage value. Can be adjusted on a per vehicle basis to provide 100% TPS just as the throttle reaches fully open."

There is information on the auto VE Learn in the Intro to Tuning Part 1 on our web site along with the What's Up Display help document included with the EBL.

The best method of using the auto VE Learn is to first use it in closed loop using the stock NB O2 sensor. This allows the ECM to use the fuel trims to help make the vehicle driveable. When starting out on modified engines this is important as the VE can be way off.

Then once the vehicle is driveable switch to open loop and use the WB mode for VE learns. This type of learning is faster and also learns in PE mode.

Once this is completed switch back to the BLM mode and do a final long learn. It will be different then the WB learn as the ECM 's target is not necessarily stoich.

RBob.

Ghettobird52

so my oh my if any one is reading this thread and you are still questioning getting it. DO IT. So the other day i decided to push my car to see how it really drives now and. WOW it is fast! i hit the gas to the metal and tires instanstly starting roasting up. (before always had to brake stand with the weak 305). On the freeway at a rolling cruise at 60-65 i hit the gas to the metal and it pulls nicely. (305 had 0, and i really mean 0, power at a freeway hit the pedal to the metal) and i am barley scratching the surfaces of tuning guys (just with VE learns and adjustment to my BPC-BPC VS VAC table. and 350 SA table) and this is with a average MPG of 17.9 (freeway and city). i really didnt know how much the computer was holding me behind!!! until now....

So i ask. what to touch next for performance wise. It runs nice just want some more. Launch mode? how do i get it to work "as i want it" as in. should i increase the SA- LM table? and what is a number that is safe to use.

kataklysm01

Lucky you, I discovered last night my injectors are going static at those speeds with any demand on the throttle. I'm hitting 100% VE in a bunch of places and the injectors jumped over 100%DC... I guess the 500cfm and 61# injectors are not gonna cut it. Hopefully I can sell the TB I have. The Howell 670 comes with another adapter plate and a different fuel pump. The tech said the injectors and the pump are adjustable for different ranges of # and pressure. Interesting and not cheap...

xch3no2

Don't sell your TB...just do the common TBI mods, install a TPI pump, raise the pressure & continue tuning.

kataklysm01

Thing is I'm running a 350 setup on a 412 that is a few steps above stock. I was kind of anticipating this. According to the EBL utility I'll need a bit more pressure and injector to be able to harness the power of that thing.

So the stuff is in the mail. Next thing is the 3" exhaust.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

try and get specifics from Howell. Is it a Holley 670? What injectors? Holley injectors?What is capacity of FP?

Many of us use a GM 7.4L TBI with GM injectors. I would consider FIC for reconditioned injectors. GM Delco FP is desireable. I would look at ebay to see what they offer.

kataklysm01

The Holley 670 with 81# injectors, the pump I'm not sure. All the tech said it had some variable settings for a greater range of pressures to accomodate high HP applications. And the 2" bore adapter plate and a new high flow fuel filter.

I looked at the 454 TB route on Summit. Being a noob, I found the descriptions a bit vague and finding injectors very confusing. The prices from Howell were in line or better than what I was looking at on Summit. I went this way as an insurance everything would just connect together with what I have. They supply this same kit for the 454 and 502 so it should suffice for an AMC 412. I know where I can get the replacement parts from directly if they ever fail. I'll post the results once I have everything hooked up.

Thanks for the input.

Ghettobird52

So this morning was our first cold cold morning (finally!) and car had a little trouble starting in the cold. It cranked right over but sounded like a F$&@ing tractor at first., really rough barley alive. Had to give it a little throttle to warm up but after the first 20seconds it went into it's correct warming up cycle (closed open iforgot which one is warming up) . How do I fix this? It's only a cold start. Hot restarts? Are good

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Guetto: be careful easy to over fuel. you have a cranking table, a choke table, and open loop table. all can add fuel at start. They all work off the VE table. Of importance is that the IAC is functional. That(does avac leak) is what gives you a fast idle until you are 155dF. IAC steps can be changed to increase idle speed vs coolant temp.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I believe the Holley injectors are rated at 20 lbs FP while the GM are rated at 12-13. So the Holley at 20 lbs FP puts out 80 lbs of fuel.

kataklysm01

I have some backfire out the TB under 2000 and pretty bad stumbling throughout the range up to 2500-3000 both under load only.
In what increments should I reduce the AE MAP Filter and AE - TPS Filter? I just divided the two tables by 1.15 (15% decrease?). Is that typically too much before I head outside and try it?

Can you do a single table, is there a better one to do first or should they be increased in tandem? Or maybe it's all just a crap shoot and whatever works best is.

I'm basing all this from the Introduction to Tuning Part 2 page. http://www.dynamicefi.com/Tune_Intro2.php

kataklysm01

I'm finding posts that mention 5% increments in the affected parts of the RPM range. I'll check that out.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...tuning-qs.html

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

under load is AE related. Increasing MAP would be AE-MAP. Increasing throttle is TPS AE. Possibly needs to increase both. Note 61 usec increments. Smaller filter AE comes in sooner longer duration. If you can identify a specific rpm or range of rpms then the rpm modifier can be used. Higher rpms requires less AE or possible none as velocity keeps manifold wet wil reduced loss of vac.

kataklysm01

So, using a Wideband sensor. The BLM is not used anymore. So BLM is only to compensate for the lack of range of the Narrowband?

What should be a good idle AFR and what are the parameters that are involved in tweaking this? I seem to idle in the 13 range.

I also notice that doing the WUD playback does not display the WB afr value. You have to use the dump file or .csv. Then again, looking at the dump window my WB AFR values are all zeros. How come?

p.s. Realizing I use the laptop to collect data and a desktop to analyze. I fixed the WUD dump log view by setting the channel 0 TT1 on my desktop also when analysing the log file. I now see AFR values under WB AFR. So I matched all the settings from the laptop WUD.

kataklysm01

Does Closed loop get activated with a WB?

kataklysm01

I have made a discovery. I've been playing with the AE filters without any significant change. So I'm looking at the screen when pushing on the pedal and the stumbling only starts when PE comes in. I can reproduce that 100% of the time.

So is the PE not coming soon and strong enough?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Only if there is a simulated NB output that is connected to the ECM in place of the NB sensor input.

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

You can change the onset of PE. It is a constant I believe like 50%-60%-70% of TPS. Move it down 10% and check it out. When AE stops PE should start assuming you are into pedal enough for PE. PE A/F is commanded by rpm so that should be OK.

from RBob: Remember that the smaller the filter value in the table the sooner, larger, and longer lasting the delta MAP/TPS value will be.

This explains the trasition of AE to PE

Fuel pump adequate? Check FP at WOT

kataklysm01

So I could send the purple wire to channel 1 for example. But what would be the point of that?

So in essence, closed loop is associated to using BLM and a NB. Having a wideband you're always in a sort of closed loop since it works pretty much all the time.

cool, thanks

kataklysm01

Will this IAT sensor work or is there a better one people are using?

[url]http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SMP-AX32/?rtype=10[url]

[url]http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ACC-74773/[url]

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I believe the one being used most widely is the 1989 TBI F Body. I tried a 1992 F and for reasons unk did not work. 1989 IAT worked. Delco of course.