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Old 04-06-2006, 11:17 AM   #1
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Tuning with the EBL

Hey can we start a thread for EBL tuning.
The EBL thread is grown rather large and was pre release.
All of us that are using the EBL could share our results and tweaks.
RBob would have a place to vist on his own time and help those that need advice using his EBL. This way he is not having to deal with the same issues as others start using the EBL.
Is this allowed by a junior member to recommend? (MODS)
I could sure use it.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:52 AM   #2
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Hope this is OK

I am getting a code 23
Do I need to change a option word in my bin or is there something else that could be causing this. My engine does not have a IAT sensor. Do I need to hook one up?
Thanks
OK I turned off the (TPS21 - throttle position sensor failure, high)
and the (IAT23 - intake air temperature failure, low)
NO SES now.
Is this something I will need later on?

Last edited by sbcrules; 04-06-2006 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:55 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbcrules
I am getting a code 23
Do I need to change a option word in my bin or is there something else that could be causing this. My engine does not have a IAT sensor. Do I need to hook one up?
Thanks
Hook one up, or follow the info in the Calibration file to disable the IAT from the calibration. I believe you put the bias all the way to the CTS, and disable the IAT diagnostic check. For my application, it seems to run better with the IAT in place.

As far as the thread, seems like a good idea to me.

I will be glad to help out as I have most of the functionality used in mine. VAFPR, 2-Bar, Cooling Fans, Smart A/C, Shift Light, Valet mode, PE output (use it to control the EGR solenoid which is hooked to the Air Cleaner heat valve), Lean Cruise, etc.

Last edited by Fast355; 04-06-2006 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:20 PM   #4
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IAT on its way

Thanks I will hook one up.
I did turn off the error flags.
I just started tuning this and would like to get it in the ballpark before I go on to adding all the other options. My next purchase is a wide band. Any sugestions on where and what to buy?
Thanks

Data Logging (WUD) on the way to work this morning, my fuel mileage must have doubled from what I was running before installing the EBL
Should be a very good return on my investment.
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbcrules
Thanks I will hook one up.
I did turn off the error flags.
I just started tuning this and would like to get it in the ballpark before I go on to adding all the other options. My next purchase is a wide band. Any sugestions on where and what to buy?
Thanks

Data Logging (WUD) on the way to work this morning, my fuel mileage must have doubled from what I was running before installing the EBL
Should be a very good return on my investment.
I have two widebands, I like the Innovative LC1 better than my Zeitronix. Both will get the job done, but the LC1 is more compact and flexible.
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Old 04-06-2006, 12:55 PM   #6
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There's a new WB coming to market in the next few weeks, I'd suggest waiting to see if it's as good as it looks......
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Old 04-06-2006, 01:45 PM   #7
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Does that mean a new WBO2 sensor, WBO2 controller, or both?

Thanks,
Junk
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Old 04-06-2006, 02:32 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by junkcltr
Does that mean a new WBO2 sensor, WBO2 controller, or both?
WBO2 Controller.
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Old 04-06-2006, 03:00 PM   #9
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Thanks, Good info. I can only hope the Megeaquirt PWC WBO2 is getting near the release stages. I am curious how far off my NTK L1H1 is now from running the engine rich for a while. I think it is about time to get another WBO2 & controller to check how far it may have drifted
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:59 PM   #10
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Question..

Hopefully going to try my first startup on the EBL tomorrow, have edited the bin, etc, but wonder about the IAT.

I do not have one right now, and want to add one. What application can i use to buy the correct one? 199? 5.7l TG?

Any specific car to use at the local parts emporium to obtain the correct one would be appreciated.

Thanks.
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Old 04-06-2006, 11:08 PM   #11
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For anyone not running an IAT/MAT sensor, here are the changes to the supplied BIN that should be made:

Disable IAT Malfunction reporting (uncheck the flag):

Malf Flags - 12 thru 24

IAT23 - intake air temperature failure, low

Malf Flags - 25 thru 42

IAT25 - intake air temperature failure, high

The 'Blend Factor for CTS and IAT' table should be set up for all CTS. To do this set all entries to 100%.

It is better to run an IAT sensor. On the other hand there are successful installations that do not run one. What an IAT allows is for a varience in air temperature to be compensated for. This also depends upon the amount of preheat and manifold heat that is present.

A cold-cold intake will benefit more from an IAT then one that has pre-heat and a manifold water jacket.

RBob.
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Old 04-07-2006, 07:27 AM   #12
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Not quite tuning but I was wondering for all the stuff you disabled can I just yank the pins? I won't be using any of the stuff you added, and after talking to my mechanic I'm ditching the EVAP stuff so I have no use for pins A3, A4, C1, C2, and C8.

Also my A/C doesn't work because the compressor does not turn on, I was wondering if this is just programming issue or if I need C2 "A/C Compressor Control" which I believe is now "Fan"
I hooked up my original ECM and sure enough the A/C compressor kicked right on. I've got one of Chris's bins so I'll try using his A/C setup but I thought I'd ask anyways since it isn't a guaranteed thing.
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Old 04-07-2006, 11:11 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TierAngst
Not quite tuning but I was wondering for all the stuff you disabled can I just yank the pins? I won't be using any of the stuff you added, and after talking to my mechanic I'm ditching the EVAP stuff so I have no use for pins A3, A4, C1, C2, and C8.

Also my A/C doesn't work because the compressor does not turn on, I was wondering if this is just programming issue or if I need C2 "A/C Compressor Control" which I believe is now "Fan"
I hooked up my original ECM and sure enough the A/C compressor kicked right on. I've got one of Chris's bins so I'll try using his A/C setup but I thought I'd ask anyways since it isn't a guaranteed thing.
You can pop the pins out of the connector and insulate them. A piece of plastic soda straw and a little tape works.

For the A/C you may need to move a pin. I'm going to look at it tonight and post back here. As for the A/C signal to the ECM (pin B8), is this from the dash switch?

RBob.

Last edited by RBob; 04-07-2006 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 04-07-2006, 12:34 PM   #14
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IAT, does anybody know what kind to get. Like from what year/engine/model car?? Or does somebody just have a part number, maybe from standard, ac delco, etc?? Gonna hook it up this weekend and wanna get it installed in its entiredy before I start tuning, except for the N20. Thanx.

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Old 04-07-2006, 12:41 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidh8
IAT, does anybody know what kind to get. Like from what year/engine/model car?? Or does somebody just have a part number, maybe from standard, ac delco, etc?? Gonna hook it up this weekend and wanna get it installed in its entiredy before I start tuning, except for the N20. Thanx.
There are several versions...
One being a *clip-in*, then the pipe thread type (3/8" pipe if I recall correctly).
As far as the thread in ones, there's a plastic one, then an exposed sensor, and then one within a *bulb*. Depending on location, you can even get by with a coolant sensor, thou the response maybe sluggish.

The 86-87 Buick Grand Nationals, Vin 7, use the pipe threaded, exposed sensor version..
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Old 04-07-2006, 03:06 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy
There are several versions...
One being a *clip-in*, then the pipe thread type (3/8" pipe if I recall correctly).
As far as the thread in ones, there's a plastic one, then an exposed sensor, and then one within a *bulb*. Depending on location, you can even get by with a coolant sensor, thou the response maybe sluggish.

The 86-87 Buick Grand Nationals, Vin 7, use the pipe threaded, exposed sensor version..

My IAT sensor is a coolant temp sensor that I had laying around from the original engine that I robbed the TBI off of. Mine is a 3 wire variety that I mounted on the intake and runs both the ECM and the temperature gauge. I had a fan switch in the original gauge sending unit hole in the head. The original GM heated air cleaner setup stays at a fairly consistent temperature, unless I am at WOT and the measurement is pretty close.
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Old 04-07-2006, 03:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy
There's a new WB coming to market in the next few weeks, I'd suggest waiting to see if it's as good as it looks......
LOL.............now ya tell us

UPS just dropped off my ZT-2
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Old 04-07-2006, 05:47 PM   #18
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"TCC - Enable TCC calculations (0 = stick trans). Reset bit is a manual transmission is in use"

I can not for the life of me find this in there that is the last thing I need to set in the way of TCC.
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Old 04-07-2006, 05:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBob
For the A/C you may need to move a pin. I'm going to look at it tonight and post back here. As for the A/C signal to the ECM (pin B8), is this from the dash switch?

RBob.
When retro-fitting the EBL in place of the 16136965 ECM ('91-'93 Wagons), the A/C relay drive out needs to be moved. Currently at pin C2, move it to A2.

The A2 pin is open on the harness connector. Pop the pin out of C2 (Grn w/wht stripe) and place it into pin location A2.

That should do it.

RBob.
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Old 04-07-2006, 06:01 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TierAngst
"TCC - Enable TCC calculations (0 = stick trans). Reset bit is a manual transmission is in use"

I can not for the life of me find this in there that is the last thing I need to set in the way of TCC.
This is a flag in the 'Options Word 2' field, 'TCC', Bit 7. If using TP it is in the Flags box. The stock EBL BIN should have that flag set for TCC operation. Double check that the ECM is displaying a correct MPH value.

RBob.
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Old 04-08-2006, 06:08 PM   #21
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Well I think I got the A/C figured out, have also got the TCC solved and after my third serial converter I finally got one that works!!! Now time to learn how to tune

First question: for the auto VE should I keep it at the WUD's stock 75-110 Min/Max CTS? What is this?
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Old 04-08-2006, 06:22 PM   #22
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Love the ebl. Just wondering what to do with the AE. I think that is screwed up. When i stab the throttle is breakes up real bad for a few seconds then goes. I'm just not sure what all the timers and all do. Though the disk comes with explanations, I'm just not sure of the relation to how the car is running.

Side note, RBOB, the % change for the BPC, How is that number adjusted. Is it the difference in % from vacuum pressure to no. ex., my FP @ 20 KPA is 15, but @ 100 KPA is 27, that is about 45%. Do I enter that value in there. Also, does the AE mess up the VE learn?? And a final thing, should I disable the lean cruise while trying to learn the VE?

orry for all the questions, I'm just super excited that this thing runs so much better, but needs more tuning to be spot on.
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Old 04-08-2006, 06:48 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidh8
Just wondering what to do with the AE. I think that is screwed up. When i stab the throttle is breakes up real bad for a few seconds then goes. I'm just not sure what all the timers and all do. Though the disk comes with explanations, I'm just not sure of the relation to how the car is running.
Start with the easy stuff.
ie the TPS and MAP AE functions, rather then *finer points*.
*Usually* it's a matter of getting things at least close and then moving onto the finer points. Not to mention every car is different so what may work neat on one car just doesn't on another.

Not to mention you might want to just ramp the timing down faster from *cruise* to WOT timing.
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Old 04-08-2006, 07:16 PM   #24
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I was thinking about the timing too, I used the table that came with the EBL, just keep lowering it at the higher MAP, cause of the knock counts. But I might try using the spark table from the old bin, and just filling in the higher rpm value's. I am also not sure which way to go with the AE, If I look at the o2 voltage when I stab the gas, it goes clean to .850 volts or so. But that is with the narrow band. Has anybody else had to raise the AE higher?, and how much?? BTW, running the vortec heads and still trying to get a better timing table on it.

Thanx all

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Old 04-08-2006, 07:59 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TierAngst
Well I think I got the A/C figured out, have also got the TCC solved and after my third serial converter I finally got one that works!!! Now it's time to learn how to tune

First question: for the auto VE should I keep it at the WUD's stock 75-110 Min/Max CTS? What is this?
Now it's time to learn how to tune

The 75-110 Min/Max CTS is a window that the engine coolant temperature needs to be within for VE Learn to take place. If the engine typcially runs within this range I would leave it.

The purpose is so VE Learning takes place at the normal engine operating temperature. Closed loop can be entered at a much lower temperature. And if using a WB for VE Learn, these values define the range in which to learn. These values alllow that range to be narrowed.

RBob.

Last edited by RBob; 04-08-2006 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 04-08-2006, 08:33 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidh8
Love the ebl. Just wondering what to do with the AE. I think that is screwed up. When i stab the throttle is breakes up real bad for a few seconds then goes. I'm just not sure what all the timers and all do. Though the disk comes with explanations, I'm just not sure of the relation to how the car is running.

Side note, RBOB, the % change for the BPC, How is that number adjusted. Is it the difference in % from vacuum pressure to no. ex., my FP @ 20 KPA is 15, but @ 100 KPA is 27, that is about 45%. Do I enter that value in there. Also, does the AE mess up the VE learn?? And a final thing, should I disable the lean cruise while trying to learn the VE?

orry for all the questions, I'm just super excited that this thing runs so much better, but needs more tuning to be spot on.
Glad to hear it EBL is working out. On the throttle stab I'm going to address that in the next post (there is added info).

The %BPC change is a filter value. The required value is relative to the response time of the fuel pressure regulator. The best thing to do is adjust the value and feel how the engine responds. First get the VE tables in line, then the AE roughed in. The reason I say the %BPC filter needs to be done by feel is that I have yet to see any published data on fuel pressure regulator response times.

I do know that they respond slower (much so) then the ECM. I added the filter to slow the ECM down to enable it to be matched to the FPR.

Lean cruise and VE Learn: if using BLM learn then disable the lean cruise. If using a WB for learn then the lean cruise can be left in place.

Thank you and your welcome,

RBob.
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Old 04-09-2006, 01:32 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBob

Lean cruise and VE Learn: if using BLM learn then disable the lean cruise. If using a WB for learn then the lean cruise can be left in place.

Thank you and your welcome,

RBob.

Does it automatically choose a BLM for you or is there somewhere else in the bin file that you have to choose a target BLM and it tries to match it? To turn off lean cruise (hiwy codes right?) do I just raise the min mph to something high or is there a better way to turn it off?
----------


Does this chart look nuts to anyone else? I'm not really familiar with this stuff but that really doesn't look healthy. What should I be targeting to fix it? I'm going to delve into this stuff tomorrow and hopefully have a much better understanding of it, but I'm sure I'll have a million more questions.

Last edited by TierAngst; 04-09-2006 at 01:37 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 04-09-2006, 09:15 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TierAngst
Does it automatically choose a BLM for you or is there somewhere else in the bin file that you have to choose a target BLM and it tries to match it? To turn off lean cruise (hiwy codes right?) do I just raise the min mph to something high or is there a better way to turn it off?
----------


Does this chart look nuts to anyone else? I'm not really familiar with this stuff but that really doesn't look healthy. What should I be targeting to fix it? I'm going to delve into this stuff tomorrow and hopefully have a much better understanding of it, but I'm sure I'll have a million more questions.
For VE Learn the target BLM is always 128. Within the ECM a BLM value of 128 is neither adding or subtracting fuel.

Easiest method to disable lean cruise is to set the minimum MPH to a high value such as 200 or so.

As for the knock retard display, yes, that is a lot of knock. Can you hear any knock? Wondering if it is false knock from a bad accessory or exhaust pipe hitting the frame.

RBob.
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Old 04-09-2006, 10:52 AM   #29
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I've got something that sounds like it rattles when the TC locks up at low a low RPM, I really don't hear the engine knock... when I revv it in park/neutral it sounds like all muscle
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Old 04-09-2006, 11:00 AM   #30
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?? DC% ??

I obviously have more tuning to do, but I have a few questions. I have a partial log export i can post here if i need to, but ..

I am seeing some DC% of over 100%. How is that possible? Does that mean it is carrying over some PW from one cycle to the next? or is anything over 100% mean the injectors are static?

Also, my old application ran in asynch all the time. in the EBL file i seen 5 entries relating to asych/synch, but.. does it run in synch mode most of the time? is that what the sPW entry is referring to?

Heres a partial xport, (if i do not mess the table up).

Code:
RUNTIME  RPM  MPH MAP VE% TPS CTS IAT I/C   O2 G/S SA   sPW  DC%  aPW AeDeIdPeDcClLnTc Cl INT BLM IAC  AFR   WB dTPS  tpsAE dMAP  mapAE   aePW
00:12:26 25.0  34  94  91  61  74  40  74 1013 176 17  97.35  81  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 13.5 10.2  0.412 15.9  0.168  3.983 
00:12:26 26.8  34  96  91  73  74  40  74 1018 191 18 116.88 104  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 13.6 15.7  0.626 14.4  0.305  4.761 
00:12:26 28.8  35  98  92  81  74  40  74 1013 204 20 111.08 106  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 13.5 14.1  0.534 15.6  0.275  4.288 
00:12:26 30.0  35  98  93  84  74  40  74 1013 205 23 104.68 104  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 13.3 11.8  0.397 12.5  0.275  3.204 
00:12:26 29.8  36  97  93  85  74  40  74 1013 209 23  96.74  95  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 12.9  8.2  0.275  9.7  0.244  2.182 
00:12:26 29.8  36  98  93  85  74  40  74 1013 207 22  90.33  89  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 12.5  4.3  0.153 10.0  0.244  2.029 
00:12:26 30.0  37  97  92  85  74  40  74 1013 210 23  87.28  87  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 12.3  3.1  0.122  7.8  0.214  1.709 
00:12:26 30.0  38  98  92  85  74  40  75 1035 210 23  86.36  86  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 12.0  2.4  0.122  8.4  0.214  1.633 
00:12:26 30.5  38  97  93  91  74  40  74  991 210 23  90.94  92  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 11.9  5.5  0.229  6.9  0.183  2.502 
00:12:26 30.5  38  98  93  96  74  40  74 1031 215 23  99.18 100  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 11.7  7.5  0.366  7.5  0.183  2.258 
00:12:26 31.0  38  98  93 100  74  40  75 1040 218 24  92.47  95  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 11.6  7.8  0.275  5.9  0.153  1.709 
00:12:26 31.5  39  98  93 100  74  40  75 1031 220 24  84.23  88  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 11.6  4.3  0.153  4.4  0.122  1.556 
00:12:26 31.5  40  98  93 100  74  40  75 1009 223 24  85.14  89  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 11.5  2.7  0.122  4.1  0.153  1.251 
00:12:26 32.3  40  98  93 100  74  40  75 1031 223 24  82.09  88  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 11.4  2.0  0.107  3.8  0.122  1.160 
00:12:26 32.0  41  98  93 100  74  40  75 1013 228 24  81.18  86  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 11.3  1.2  0.076  3.1  0.122  1.007 
00:12:26 32.3  41  98  93 100  74  40  75 1013 230 24  80.87  86  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 11.3  0.8  0.076  2.8  0.122  1.007 
00:12:26 32.5  42  98  93 100  74  40  75 1031 230 24  74.16  80  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.2 11.3  0.8  0.076  2.5  0.000  0.381 
RUNTIME  RPM  MPH MAP VE% TPS CTS IAT I/C   O2 G/S SA   sPW  DC%  aPW AeDeIdPeDcClLnTc Cl INT BLM IAC  AFR   WB dTPS  tpsAE dMAP  mapAE   aePW
00:12:27 33.0  42  98  93 100  74  40  75  991 230 24  74.77  82  0.00 Y N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.1 11.2  0.4  0.076  2.5  0.000  0.381 
00:12:27 33.3  43  98  93 100  74  40  75 1027 237 25  70.80  78  0.00 N N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.1 11.2  0.4  0.000  1.9  0.000  0.000 
00:12:27 34.0  44  98  93 100  74  40  75 1040 237 25  70.50  79  0.00 N N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.1 11.2  0.4  0.000  2.2  0.000  0.000 
00:12:27 34.0  44  98  93 100  74  40  75 1018 239 25  71.11  80  0.00 N N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.1 11.3  0.4  0.000  1.6  0.000  0.000 
00:12:27 34.3  44  98  93 100  74  40  75  996 242 25  70.80  80  0.00 N N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.1 11.3  0.4  0.000  0.9  0.000  0.000 
00:12:27 34.8  44  98  93 100  74  40  75 1022 242 25  70.80  82  0.00 N N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.1 11.4  0.4  0.000  1.3  0.000  0.000 
00:12:27 34.8  45  97  93 100  74  40  75  987 246 25  70.50  81  0.00 N N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.1 11.5  0.4  0.000  0.3  0.000  0.000 
00:12:27 35.5  46  98  94 100  74  40  75 1000 248 25  71.11  84  0.00 N N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.1 11.7  0.4  0.000  0.6  0.000  0.000 
00:12:27 35.0  46  98  94 100  74  40  75 1013 250 25  71.11  82  0.00 N N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.1 11.7  0.4  0.000  0.6  0.000  0.000 
00:12:27 35.8  47  98  94 100  74  40  75 1018 254 25  71.11  84  0.00 N N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.1 11.8  0.4  0.000  0.6  0.000  0.000 
00:12:27 35.8  47  97  94 100  74  40  75 1013 254 25  71.11  84  0.00 N N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.1 11.9  0.4  0.000  0.6  0.000  0.000 
00:12:27 36.3  48  97  93 100  74  40  75 1018 255 25  70.50  85  0.00 N N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.1 11.9  0.4  0.000  0.0  0.000  0.000 
00:12:27 37.0  48  97  93 100  74  40  75 1000 255 26  70.50  86  0.00 N N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.1 12.0  0.4  0.000  0.0  0.000  0.000 
00:12:27 36.8  49  97  93 100  74  40  75 1022 255 26  70.50  86  0.00 N N N Y N Y N N  1 128 126 144 12.1 12.0  0.4  0.000  0.0  0.000  0.000
Thanks!

Also, the injectors seem to sound different, if thats possible. but could just be me..

Last edited by 7Point4; 04-09-2006 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 04-09-2006, 11:03 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TierAngst
I've got something that sounds like it rattles when the TC locks up at low a low RPM, I really don't hear the engine knock... when I revv it in park/neutral it sounds like all muscle
I hac'd enough of the AYKC bin to pull out the main spark table. This bin was pulled from a Caprice wagon with the '6965 ECM. It has quite a bit less timing then the EBL BIN has (and even it is conservative!).

My recommendation is to have the distributor base timing set at 0 degrees. Also set this in the bin as the Initital timing. Then set up the EBL timing tables to match up with the one below. Use the 4800 RPM row for 4800 up to 6400. And the 30 MAP column out to 20 Kpa MAP. Watch the 35, 45, 55, and 65 KPa columns, they don't exist in the EBL spark table, so just skip them. Where the -9's are use 0.

Here is the stock AYKC timing, adjusted for bias's and slope. These are the actual SA values in degrees. Note the -9 deg. areas, the max retard is set to -3.6 degrees. So that is the max negative timing that will be set, even though the SA table has more.

Code:
;--------------------------------------------------------------------------
;--------------------------------------------------------------------------
; Actual SA
;--------------------------------------------------------------------------
;--------------------------------------------------------------------------
;
; MAP   30  35  40  45  50  55  60  65  70  75  80  85  90  95 100 KPa
;  RPM
;  400  18  18  18  18  17  15  13  11  10   7   6   3   3   3   3
;  600  18  18  18  18  17  17  15  13  10   7   6   3   0  -9  -9
;  800  20  20  20  18  17  16  12   8   7   7   6   5   0  -9  -9
; 1000  21  21  21  19  18  16  16  10   7   7   6   5   0  -9  -9
; 1200  21  21  21  19  19  17  16  12   8   8   5   5   3   3   2
; 1600  23  22  22  21  19  18  16  12  10   8   5   4   0   2   4
; 2000  27  25  23  22  22  22  18  15  12  10   9   9   2   2   6
; 2400  27  27  27  26  25  21  18  17  16  12  10   7   2   6   8
; 2800  27  27  27  28  25  22  18  17  18  14  12  11   7  10  10
; 3200  27  27  27  28  25  22  20  17  18  14  12  12  12  10  10
; 3600  27  27  27  28  25  22  20  17  18  12  12  11  11  10  10
;
;
; Slope starts at 3600 RPM, ends at 4800 rpm, 4 degrees per 1000 rpm
;
;
; 4000  31  31  31  32  29  26  24  21  22  16  16  15  15  14  14
; 4400  35  35  35  36  33  30  28  25  26  20  20  19  19  18  18
; 4800  39  39  39  40  37  34  32  29  30  24  24  23  23  22  22
;
;--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once the pinging is taken care of, the timing may then be played with for better performance.

RBob.
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Old 04-09-2006, 11:51 AM   #32
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Awesome, thanks. I got that put in the SA Main and extended and the lean cruise turned off so now I'm going to go do some VE learn with the wud and will report back later.
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Old 04-09-2006, 11:53 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Point4
I obviously have more tuning to do, but I have a few questions. I have a partial log export i can post here if i need to, but ..

I am seeing some DC% of over 100%. How is that possible? Does that mean it is carrying over some PW from one cycle to the next? or is anything over 100% mean the injectors are static?

Also, my old application ran in asynch all the time. in the EBL file i seen 5 entries relating to asych/synch, but.. does it run in synch mode most of the time? is that what the sPW entry is referring to?

Heres a partial xport, (if i do not mess the table up).

Thanks!

Also, the injectors seem to sound different, if thats possible. but could just be me..
Yes, the injectors are going static (DC > 100%). In this case it is because of the AE fuel. Which I've found not too unusual in the mid-RPM range. Some of the values are scaled to help with importing it into a spreadsheet (can then do line graphs).

The RPM is divided by 100. With 26.8 being 2680 RPM.
The sPW (sync PW) being multiplied by 10. With 116.88 being 11.688 mSec.

In the first row the AE PW is 4 mSec, in the second row it is 4.8 mSec (rounded). This is 38% and 48% of the total time available.

Here is how to 'read' the AE information:

dTPS The delta TPS% values used to look up the TPS AE contribution (shows where in table the tpsAE value is retrieved from).
tpsAE The amount of AE fuel from the TPS AE table (in mSec)
dMAP The delta MAP value (KPa) used to look up the MAP AE contribution
mapAE The amount of AE fuel from the MAP AE table (in mSec)

aePW Final AE fuel that is added to the sync PW. This value is the sum of the TPS and MAP AE, then modified by the coolant comp value and the RPM value (from those tables).

The stock EBL BIN is setup to run in sync mode. It can be changed to run async all of the time. To do this set the low/high enter/exit PW values to large values (usually greater then 13 mSec). These are the Async transition Hi and Lo values in the Injector Terms area (INJ).

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Old 04-09-2006, 01:03 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidh8
I was thinking about the timing too, I used the table that came with the EBL, just keep lowering it at the higher MAP, cause of the knock counts. But I might try using the spark table from the old bin, and just filling in the higher rpm value's. I am also not sure which way to go with the AE, If I look at the o2 voltage when I stab the gas, it goes clean to .850 volts or so. But that is with the narrow band. Has anybody else had to raise the AE higher?, and how much?? BTW, running the vortec heads and still trying to get a better timing table on it.

Thanx all

This thread, second from last post by TrofeoS/C has a Vortec timing table in it:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ark-table.html

As for the AE, if the engine chugs a little then goes, it is too much AE. If you get a cut-out and/or pop then it is not enough AE. Can also look at the INTegrator during/after the period of AE. If it is dropping then too much AE, and if increasing then not enough.

A slight increase in the INT along with good throttle response is the ideal situation.

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Old 04-09-2006, 01:57 PM   #35
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Fuel Table From 7747

When setting up a fuel table from the 7747 to EBl, can I use only the no1 table or must the #2 be added to it when entering? thanks, Val
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Old 04-09-2006, 02:19 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Val Snyder
When setting up a fuel table from the 7747 to EBl, can I use only the no1 table or must the #2 be added to it when entering? thanks, Val
Both tables should be added together. If you have Excel I'd use that, can make it much easier.

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Old 04-09-2006, 02:47 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBob
The stock EBL BIN is setup to run in sync mode. It can be changed to run async all of the time. To do this set the low/high enter/exit PW values to large values (usually greater then 13 mSec). These are the Async transition Hi and Lo values in the Injector Terms area (INJ).

RBob.

Hmm.. tried setting both values to 13000 (13 msec) and it would start and idle but just barely. It reported 0% DC and 0 PW at idle, and tapping the throttle would barely rev the engine, but still no pw or dc reported.

??

Thanks for your time!!
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Old 04-09-2006, 07:37 PM   #38
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rbob, thanx for the tip on the AE, going to log and look into that. As for the vortec spark table, there are a few tables posted, any Idea which on to use?? The one on the bottom?? I tried one of them but don't remember. Has anyone else tried the table with success?? Thanx all.
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Old 04-10-2006, 12:43 AM   #39
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See the problem here?

Last edited by Fast355; 04-10-2006 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 04-10-2006, 09:29 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Point4
Hmm.. tried setting both values to 13000 (13 msec) and it would start and idle but just barely. It reported 0% DC and 0 PW at idle, and tapping the throttle would barely rev the engine, but still no pw or dc reported.

??

Thanks for your time!!
The 0 PW and 0 DC is OK, they are reporting the sync PW information. The sync PW is converted to an equivalent async PW and an async fuel pulse is commanded. The sync pulse is set to 0.

To convert from a sync pulse to an async pulse the table called Async vs. RPM is used. This table needs to be set up according to the engine cylinder count. Not unusual for the conversion to not be perfect, but it should run better then what you are seeing. The async PW value should show up in the aPW column.

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Old 04-10-2006, 08:12 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Point4
Hmm.. tried setting both values to 13000 (13 msec) and it would start and idle but just barely. It reported 0% DC and 0 PW at idle, and tapping the throttle would barely rev the engine, but still no pw or dc reported.

??

Thanks for your time!!
I set my mule bin to the same 13 mSec async setting. I'll data log it tomorrow and see how it goes. I recall having issues with the transition from sync to async mode and back to sync. Async mode was leaner then the equivalent sync fueling mode. A search for 'bucking' and RBob as the poster should bring up the thread(s).

Since then I haven't used async mode on modified engines.

I'll let you know what I find.

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Old 04-10-2006, 08:17 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast355


See the problem here?
Has to be a trick question. I've looked at the log and other then being a little rich, all I see is a Van that just blew off an SUV.

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Old 04-10-2006, 09:33 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RBob
Has to be a trick question. I've looked at the log and other then being a little rich, all I see is a Van that just blew off an SUV.

RBob.
Congrats, you win the prize. It was actually a NBS Chevy truck.

Did it strike you weird that I am running 85 with only 35ish % TPS on what appeared to be level ground.

Right after this, I blew his doors off.
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Old 04-10-2006, 10:20 PM   #44
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This tuning is addictive. I think I have done about all I can do until the Wide Band comes in. RBob this EBL is awesome. Each run I can feel it getting more responsive and the power band more defined, I wish I had access to a Dyno. so I work on my timing (vortecs) maybe the Wideband will help me out here.
I tried some of the vortec SA tables posted in other threads but it still has a lot of counts around the 2800 RPM range (high map). I guess this could be a lean mixture causing this. Reading all the post and learning something new every day.
Thanks:

Small Block Chevy's RULE!!
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Old 04-10-2006, 10:28 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbcrules
This tuning is addictive. I think I have done about all I can do until the Wide Band comes in. RBob this EBL is awesome. Each run I can feel it getting more responsive and the power band more defined, I wish I had access to a Dyno. so I work on my timing (vortecs) maybe the Wideband will help me out here.
I tried some of the vortec SA tables posted in other threads but it still has a lot of counts around the 2800 RPM range (high map). I guess this could be a lean mixture causing this. Reading all the post and learning something new every day.
Thanks:

Small Block Chevy's RULE!!
Have I given you my table to try? Look it over, if it seems like it will work, I will send you my latest .BIN so that you can paste the tables into yours. 32* @ 3,200 rpm.
Attached Thumbnails
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Old 04-10-2006, 10:57 PM   #46
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fast, there isn't any warm spark bias with that right?? Using the ebl bin? I just modded a sa table and it kinda looks similar, gonna try it tomorrow on the way to work. Thanx, that may even work better on my engine than what I have.
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:12 AM   #47
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BPW + Burst

Wow! Quite the job on the XDF! Of course more questions, how does a BPW of 122 relate to INJ?What does the Nalpha affect? What does burst in the knock describe? No doubt there will be many more questions to come,Thank you for such a complete description of function, I just don't comprehend all of the functions,Great job, Thanks, Val
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:24 AM   #48
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Fast355;
Where is your base timing set?
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:25 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbcrules
Fast355;
Where is your base timing set?
6* BTDC, but the EBL bin is set at 6*. They cancel for 0*.

Check your email.

Here is a screen shot of the timing advance on my engine @ WOT.d
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Last edited by Fast355; 04-11-2006 at 12:45 AM.
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Old 04-11-2006, 02:25 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast355
6* BTDC, but the EBL bin is set at 6*. They cancel for 0*.

Check your email.

Here is a screen shot of the timing advance on my engine @ WOT.d
Looks like you're pulling some vacuum now at WOT Fast, is that with the stock bore TBI? If so, that sure isn't bad for what kind of power you're probably putting down to only be pulling it down to the 91KPa range, good testament to not needing to swap a 454 TBI on until pretty high power levels or displacement levels.
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