Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I think the vacuum is more a function of the air cleaner setup than the TBI. I am running the stock 1983 van air cleaner assembly on it as it helped me get another 1-2 mpg out of it versus an open element. I have the EGR solenoid hooked to the PE output, the PE output selected high, and the vacuum lines connected to the preheater flap. When the engine is out of PE, it is getting heated air which I can run another 1/2 point leaner.

It still has the stock TBI on it. I am putting out around 255 FWHP @ 4,000 (208 RWHP) with this engine.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

With a BPC of 122 and a 350 ci engine, the injectors would be flowing 68 #/hr. The N-Alpha mode is used for engines that have a bouncy, ratty cam. Using N-Alpha has a MAP KPa value created from the TPS% and engine RPM (from look up tables). This created MAP value is then blended (by % vs RPM) with the real MAP KPa value.

The resultant MAP value is then used by the ECM. This helps smooth the engine response and tame it down. It makes a difference when driving the vehicle off idle and in traffic crawl. It needs to be tuned before being used, and the calibation needs to be almost finished before tuning the N-Alpha mode.

The burst knock is a SA retard that is put into affect during throttle opening. It is designed to help prevent tip-in detonation. I've yet to use it as the better code (mostly the improved AE functionality) already prevents tip-in pinging.

RBob.

sbcrules

Fast355;
My engine seems to like your timing table, also found some other adders after comparing your bin to mine. Runs a lot smoother with no counts now. I still have not run WOT yet and will wait till the WB comes. Thanks for the help.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

OK, tried out the async mode and have some results. Last night with a cold engine I ran into the same as you did (7point4). A lousy running set up. Didn't want to rev, constant stalling.

Today, after the engine warmed up I switched to the async only bin and logged it. It actually ran decent. A little rough off idle but once moving and/or with spirited acceleration, it ran well.

However, it still wanted to stall at low speeds (RPM & MPH). Way too easily.

The reason is that the minimum async PW is set to 504 usec (0.5 msec). So there were many firing periods where the async pulse was not fired. It was accumulated until over the 504 usec.

This allowed the manifold to dry out with the resultant stall. The minimum async PW needs to be set lower. 7point4, try setting it to maybe 100 or 150 usec and see how it runs. This term is labeled: INJ - Min Async PW

RBob.

7Point4

Thanks for the reply. Will be a few days before I can try it, but will do as you suggest. Wondered about that constant myself, but did not try to
adjust it lower, as it reporting no PW had me bumfuzzled. Forgot that the column i was looking at was synch PW.

Again, thanks!

Out of curiousity, what do you think the min asynch pw the hardware is capable of?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

For the ECM: 0 usec, then increasing in 30.5 usec increments.

For injectors the time to open varies according to injector size, voltage, and fuel pressure. Maybe temperature too, but I've never checked that.

RBob.

liquidh8

Well, as I stated in another post I was having some issues with getting the emulation to work. But, with that remedied, I was able to mess around with the tune. Earlier I was saying how it bogged real bad when I stomped it, so I turned the data speed all the way up, and did what RBob said, looked at the integrator when I stomped it. Sure enough, it dropped to like 104. So I kept bumping the AE down and it has gone away. I guess with the big injectors, high FP, and the VAFPR, I didn't need all that AE. Now I have to mess with the timing some more, and then buy the WB to really get it dialed in. A question for yous guys though, when I am in the throttle, the car moves, but it seems that when I lift a little bit it pics up power/speed. You can defenitely feel it in the seat of the pants. Any suggestions on where to look??

Val Snyder

With a carb the picking up when backing off the throttle was an indication of too rich, have a look at pe afr. Good luck, Val

TierAngst

Option Word 3 - Bit 2 - A/CHi

What is this? I'm trying to get my A/C working still, it does but only above like 1800 rpm

Right now my settings are:

RBob

iTrader: (1)

That bit controls whether the A/C output drive to the relay is active high or active low. With that bit reset (as shown in the picture) the A/C output is active low. With that bit set the A/C output is high when active (and low when inactive).

As for the issue, the IAC stuff won't matter, that is just idle control. The A/C - Low RPM enable should be higher. This is the RPM at which the engine needs to be lower then in order for the A/C to come back on. When the engine is over the High RPM disable or in PE mode, the A/C is turned off. The engine then needs to be out of PE and below the Low RPM enable for the duration of the Re-enable delay before the A/C turns back on.

For the issue at hand, after engine startup there is the A/C - Engine Run delay before the A/C will be enabled. This short delay allows the engine to start up and settle down before kicking on the A/C.

On the WUD observe the *A/C indicator light at the top of the screen. This is the A/C request input status. It is from the dash switch and under temperature control on the evap case. That needs to be active for the ECM to consider activating the A/C. Then the Engine Run delay needs to expire, and the engine can't be over the upper RPM disable or in PE mode.

RBob.


edit: the A/C - Low RPM enable needs to be higher. The A/C routine uses the timer the same as whether it is for the Engine Run or PE/High RPM disable. As it is set now once the A/C is off from either timer the engine RPM has to below the 825 RPM for the duration of the timer.

Another tidbit, to override either timer and have the A/C come back on immediately: turn off the A/C then turn it back on. The act of turning off the A/C clears the timer.

Val Snyder

Say, is the Plecan theroy of running minimal iac/max butterfly at idle still a desirable approach? Thanks, Val

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yes, I usually like 5 - 10 counts on a warm idle (with TBI, not port).

RBob.

TierAngst

Still don't have a clue what that means

Okay that makes a lot more sense, I was thinking that it had to be above that rpm to enable.

TierAngst

I went out and checked it while in park and the compressor kicks on but only after being revved then kicks off after a few seconds of idling again. Is this normal? Will it do the same thing driving around? I don't want to have to revv the motor every time I want cold air blasting.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=TierAngst]Still don't have a clue what that means

It means that one way, the ECM grounds the connection to enable the A/C and the other disconnects it to enable the A/C. Think of it as an electrical switch. Normally Open vs. Normally Closed.

Let me make a further example. My egr solenoid is running my heated air cleaner. Typical EGR solenoids open when the ground is established by the ECM. The stock PE output is unchecked. The solenoid therefore only was energized when in PE. That made the air cleaner flapper stay open until I went into PE, then it went to heat. Flip the output and the air cleaner flap closes, you go into PE and it opens.

TierAngst

Got it thanks

Now lets hope my A/C works since its going to be upper 90's all week.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

what does the WUD *A/C indicator show? If that goes off then the ECM isn't receiving an A/C request signal.

RBob.

kdrolt

The item you're fighting may have nothing to do with ECM tuning. If the amount of R12 is too low (pressure too low), the compressor will turn off. Remember that a TBI Bcar is 13+ years old, so you may have lost enough refrigerant in those years that the AC won't stay on. Get the AC system pressure checked.

TierAngst

I just had the R12 refilled about a week ago, that stuff is expensive


I haven't got a chance to check it on the WUD yet, I'll do that tonight.

TierAngst

Brought the car out for a bit of testing and found that there was a blue light on the whole time the a/c was on, is that what is supposed to happen? It still has to be above like two grand to kick on but it works.

EDIT: Zif socket loose, will solder it on tonight. Anything I have to watch out for?

sbcrules

OK I nailed it today and @5000 it cut out like I had a rev limiter installed.
Pretty sure it is a fuel pressure issue but would like one of you guys to look at the WUD image.

Is the %DC for the Injectors?
They are static at this point correct?

When I raise my fuel pressure (running about 13.5 now) and change the injector constant is this like starting over with the VE tables or will they be fairly close to what I have now?

The low end is absolutely fantastic, excellent throttle response and fun to drive.
Fuel mileage is better than I could have imagined. I know I need a wideband but I only ran it up till it started to cutout. Should I fool with any of the fuel pressure increases with out a wideband if I limit WOT runs and just sneak up on the upper RPM tuning areas.

What is the ballpark pressure I should be running with a 383 9.8:1 CR, Vortec heads, ramjet 350 cam, BB TBI with 80# injectors.

As always THANKS

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The blue *A/C indicator is active whenever the dash switch A/C request to the ECM is active. It would seem to me that the A/C is working correctly. The ECM will shut off the A/C if in PE mode or above the upper RPM limit or if one of the timeouts hasen't expired. Other then that if the dash switch requests A/C it is turned on.

If there is a time that you believe the A/C should be on, and it isn't, email me a short zip'd log of that. I'll take a look at it and get back to you.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Is the %DC for the Injectors?
They are static at this point correct?
Yes, DC% is the sync PW injector duty cycle.
No, not static yet, but getting there (100% and greater is static)

When I raise my fuel pressure (running about 13.5 now) and change the injector constant is this like starting over with the VE tables or will they be fairly close to what I have now?
Not really, but somewhat, they will be close. Whenever this is done a VE Learn can help. Injectors are not completely linear. The VE table makes up for some of this.

The low end is absolutely fantastic, excellent throttle response and fun to drive.
Fuel mileage is better than I could have imagined. Thank you. This is the result I like to hear. I have many years in developing the EBL system, and have had the same result. This is a major reason that folks should run this setup. It brings TBI into the performance age.

Before playing with the fuel pressure, I would get the top end running better. With the way you say it cuts out, I would say that it is too much fuel. The display shows: not in fuel cut, maybe in 1st stage rev-limit retard?

Other then that the O2 is at 1000mV. I'd say that it is possible the motor is drowning. Check the soft-touch limiter values first. If not in them, then lean it out a little and sneak back up on it.

RBob.

TierAngst

Well it is back at stalling out again, it did it twice after I had just made sure the zif socket was secured but then I pushed on it again after it stalled and it didn't stall again. bah who knows my car has gremlins

Anywho something occured to me that I may need to start taking care of in my tuning. Does the VE learn take care of just the VE tables and thats it or does it also try setting the BLM to 128? I'm not real sure how the whole BLM thing works.

RBob can you send me your email address so I can send you my A/C log that you requested. And if you don't mind taking a look at it I have a log of the times it stalled twice.

One last thing, how do I know if I'm rich or lean?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

If using the VE Learn via BLM, it will target a BLM of 128. It does this by changing the VE table.

If using a WB to learn in the VE, it targets the open loop commanded AFR. Once back in closed loop the BLM's may be different then 128. If so, do a couple of BLM VE Learn sessions.

One last thing, how do I know if I'm rich or lean?
BLM, or WB O2 will show this.

I emailed you, send the stalled logs too.

RBob.

7Point4

An update.

EBL is working great. the datalog session gives so much more information that i was getting with the '8747, its worth it for that alone.

Went to non-spark adjust idle. It was hunting too much with that enabled, but its still closed loop.

WOT throttle is great! still some tuning to do, but at least now i can see what is happening.

Still trying synch mode, as it was async. some small surging at partial throttle, going down the road steady state. going to have to look at that.

DFCO does surge some, when it re-applies fuel. I might play with the settings some to try to reduce that some.

I have a mechanical issue right now, can't keep the rockers set. Will tune more after I get that fixed.

-----454, bored 30 over, 9.5:1, pocket ported 781 heads, 2.19/1.88 valves, stock 454 TBI at 14 psi, holley dual plane intake with tbi adapter plate. 208/212 @ .050, .503/.503 Comp hyd cam, best of 8.65 @ 80.7, 1/8th mile (before EBL)-------

liquidh8

Question #1: I just ordered the innovate LC-1, and I have the ebl, was wondering if I can tune my AE with the WBo2?? My friend also just bought the LM-1, So I have access to that also. (using it on his blown silverado SS)

Question #2: Could I use a fuel pressure transducer from an autometer FP gauge to log my fuel pressure with the ebl? And if so, How would I set it up?

I've been playing with my AE for a few days now, and I think the VAFPR is allowing me to need less AE. But it is hard to tell where. I was just stabbing the gas and looking at the INT and seeing it drop to like 105, so I kept giving it less AE in the table till when I stapped the gas, it droped to like 118 briefly, then goes to like 130( INT). It seems to like that better. Does this sound like a reasonable way to do this? (I know, give it what it wants)

Val Snyder

Have caved in to the idea that a person should install an IAT, one was not in use by the factory on this application. The orignal ecm was an 8747 now converted to EBL, Ihave been told that the pinouts are the same for a 7747. However, I can,t find a 7747 pinout that shows an IAT. I do have a 3 wire connector unused in a fairly handy spot near the air cleaner. black/pink,tan/black,and an orange, connector marked ABC. in addition a seperate single red. I've not seen these mentioned on any wiring diagram that I have been able to get my hands on.Any guesses on the intended use of the unused 3. Which pins should the IAT enter the ecm on? If I can find the 3 at the ecm, is it cool to move them to serve the IAT? Thankyou for your help, Val

RBob

iTrader: (1)

IF the wires go to the ECM can't see any reason to not use them. May only need to use one as the other IAT wire goes to ECM ground. This can be picked up from the TPS or CTS sensor.

Check out this thread for some other good info:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...at-wiring.html

RBob.

Dominic Sorresso

I'm running 20psi on a 350 Xfire with twin 80# injectors. My DC% for WOT is in the high 70- low 80% range for 12.8 AFR. That's up to about 5700rpm.
Before putting a WB on it, I was running 10psi. WOT a difference

DM91RS

Dom.............I just have just installed the EBL. The only item left is connecting the ZT2.

Which wires go where?

I know the input is wire 2 (white from the wb) but to where?

And what about ground from the wb? which one

Thanks DM

(I just sent RBob a pm before I seen this post but I know you run one )

TierAngst

WOOHOO, the A/C works now, for any of you b-body guys be sure the a/chi flag is checked in option word 3.

Val Snyder

Thanks, checked that out earlier, the pin location is in the EBL information on the disc, C 12 [ knew I saw that somewhere] Thanks to all for the patience.

Dominic Sorresso

I'm responding here so that others would get this as well if they need it.The White wire from the ZT-2 Controller is inserted into one of the A/D channels of the EBL. I have mine in Channel 1. When you datalog just set the preferences so that the WB is Zeitronix and the Channel is whatever you used. Works great.

DM91RS

Thanks Dominic............I was unsure if a ground need be ran from the wideband unit to the EBL. So by what you are saying you do not need to ground the two units together.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

All WB units should have an analog ground. If they don't then voltage drops from the heavy heater current will cause errors. If one looks at the DIY-WB there is a separate analog ground. This isolates the heater current from the AFR signal.

If the WB being used only has a single ground, for both the heater and the signal, I recommend that it be tied to the engine block. This will minimize the error, but not eliminate it.

{edit: please don't tie it to any of the ECM wires as a path to the engine block. The WB needs it's own wire to the block. Thanks.}

RBob.

Dominic Sorresso

RBob,

My ZT-2 is using the ground through the lighter where I am feeding power for both the sensor and the display. Do you believe then that would be introducing an error into the WB readings?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Errors to the EBL (or any data logger), not the display. The display being single ended off of the WB will be able to read the signal without error.

The data logger will be affected by the voltage drop across the ground. This would be the drop between the WB unit and the ECM. This drop can be measured with a DVM. With the engine and WB running measure the voltage between the dash lighter ground and the ECM case.

An interesting item in this regard is the output span of the WB unit. If 2 WBs both report from 10:1 AFR to 20:1 AFR, with 1 using a span of 0 to 2 volts and the other using a span of 0 to 5 volts. The WB unit with the 0 to 5 volt span will be less affected by the ground voltage drop.

RBob.

DM91RS

LOL..........boy I sure did get into it with the ground question.

I would like to clear this up for not only myself but others to follow.

I hooked the ZT white wire up at lunch today as recommended and it worked this afternoon on the drive home. (Don't forget to lock your blms at 128 for a WB learn ve. Ask me why? )

I have my ZT 12v to the fuse block and the ground to a "ground hub" under the dash that I ran directly to the left rear head bolt. I ASSume this is sufficent for an engine ground.

On the Zt-2 wb instructions there are 3 grounds written exactly as follows:

1. #7 BLACK Power ground.
2. #8 BROWN Sensor Ground (EMS ground reference)
3. #11 BROWN Sensor Ground (Boost sensor ground reference)

It reads to me as: #7 to engine ground (as I have done).
I think that #8 is the one in question that might need to go to a ground on the ecm.

At the very bottom of the instruction page : (WHITE and BROWN wires are provided to connect the ZT-2 to your favorite engine management system)

What do you guys think?

DM

Dominic Sorresso

RBob,

I'll go home and check that voltage drop you described. Just a cursory view of the display and the laptop shows them being pretty consistent. Is the discrepancy a constant or a percentage? I believe the ZT-2 is a 0-5v unit.


DMRS,

Is the #8 used for when you want to use the ZT-2 as an NB?

DM91RS

Possibly

Like I said mine is working as far as I can tell

RBob

iTrader: (1)

With the Zeit' the error depends upon the reported AFR. The AFR vs. signal V isn't linear. Here are a couple of examples:

At 12.0:1 reported AFR a 40 mV difference will put the AFR at 12.1

The difference between 12:1 and 13:1 is 390 milli-volts (or 0.390 volts).

Above stoich the slope is lower, hence more error with the same difference. The difference between 15.0:1 and 16.0:1 is 140 milli-volts (which is 0.140 volts).

I cruised a couple of sites and found the Innovate site with interesting info. The newer LC1 units now have a separate analog ground. Where-as the older units do not. Maybe now that they offer data loggers they figured out the ground error issue. Dang-it, why is it I implemented a completely separate signal ground in the DIY-WB 6 years ago? Optically isolated at that. . .

RBob.

liquidh8

I'm glad to hear that. I sould be getting my LC-1 on Monday. Bought it from Craig's site. Along with a few new chips, 2 more emulation cable, (cause I'm a tool and keep breaking them), and another bung so I can tune my Big Block Elky and my brothers blown/n2o/406 sbc malibu.

Dominic Sorresso

Rbob,

OK. Went and started the car with one lead on the ECM case and one on the lighter ground. AFR was between 13 and 16. Engine cold. V delta was .047v. Pretty steady. So if I understand what you previously posted, this is enough to make a .1 difference in AFR at 12-13:1. At 15-16, the difference would be more like .3-.4.

Val Snyder

Say, would anyone know of a source for ecm wire side pins? Like to add a circut. 0 on the local Chevy dealer, Radio Shaft, + NAPA. Thanks, Val

HaulnA$$

A spare junkyard harness can be a gold mine but I have also got stuff from http://www.rosesandwrenches.com/connectors/ . HTH

RBob

iTrader: (1)

At the very bottom of the instruction page : (WHITE and BROWN wires are provided to connect the ZT-2 to your favorite engine management system)

The #7 Black goes to the ground hub under the dash. Then run the #8 Brown ground to one of the 'GND' terminals on the EBL board. Then the White to whatever ADC channel you wish to use.

As for the #11 Brown ground, I'm not sure what the purpose of the boost sensor gauge is (see next paragraaph). So this wire could also go to the ground hub.

** If the Boost sensor is for data logging by the Zeitronix unit, then #11 would go to the boost sensor (a MAP sensor). If a boost sensor is not being used it then #11 should be left open. As it is a ground reference to the sensor from the Zeitronix unit.

RBob.
----------
Yes, sounds about right. If your Zeitronix unit has the separate #8 Brown ground, can connect that one to the EBL GND terminal (any of the 3). That should eliminate any errors.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

There have been reports of stalling when slowing down. TierAngst sent me a datalog of this event so that I could look at it (thanks!).

The fix for this is easy, and can be accomplished by two methods. The stalling is caused by a combination of too many IAC steps at idle, and the values in the Minimum Idle Steps table.

The quickest and easiest fix is to add 20 or 30 steps to every entry of the 'IAC - Minimum Idle Steps' table. Go to that table in your BIN editor, look at each value, add 30 to that value, and enter that as the new value. Do this at each temperature point of the table. Close the BIN and burn a new chip.

The second portion is as follows (which is optional but recommended):

It is helpful to open the throttle blades which lowers the IAC steps during idle. It is desirable to have a count of 5 - 10 steps with a warm engine while in park or neutral. This allows more air to pass through the TB pulling the fuel through with it. To do this the idle screw needs to be adjusted. First check that the cap has been removed and you have access and the torx bit to do this. (I like to remove the screw and cut a slot in it with a hacksaw or cutoff wheel. Can then use a flat bladed screw driver on it).

To make this adjustment:

Warm up the engine to it's normal operating temperature.

Start the WUD and place the laptop where it can be seen while making the adjustment.

While observing the Idle indicator and IAC steps gauge, slowy turn the idle screw clockwise to open the blades. As the RPMs increase the IAC will close in order to maintain the proper RPM.

If at any time the Idle indicator goes out (turns off), turn off the engine, wait 10 seconds, and restart the engine. What happens is that as the throttle is being opened the ECM will see that as 'not in idle', the driver must be pressing the go pedal. The shut off and restart allows the ECM to see the new TPS setting as 'closed throttle.'

Upon a restart let the engine settle down for about a minute, then continue the procedure until 5 - 10 IAC steps are used to maintain the idle.

If the electric fan starts up, hold off adjusting until the fan turns off. Same with A/C, turn that off.

If this procedure is followed it may not be necessary to add steps to the 'IAC - Minimum Idle Steps' table. However, it can't hurt to add 10 or so steps just to be sure the engine won't be stalling.

How it works:

The 'IAC - Minimum Idle Steps' table is used during warm up to anticipate the IAC steps at idle. If the values are too low for the required IAC steps, stalling can occur. What the ECM does is to use the values from this table to bring the engine RPM down to a reasonable level as the vehicle slows down. This prevents a high rev'ing engine when declutched, or the pulling against the brakes for an auto.

When the engine is started cold it may require 120 IAC steps to idle. Then as the vehicle is driven the engine is warming up, requiring less IAC steps to idle. Without this table the RPM would be held high until the vehicle comes to a stop and the IAC gets a chance to close down. This is pretty much how the stock code works.

The EBL code will go to this table and use the IAC steps value for the current engine temperature. So as the vehicle slows down the IAC steps are decreased. This allows the RPM to also come down to a proper level.

Once the engine temperature is above the 'IAC - Max CTS for Minimum Idle Adjust' value, the EBL code will learn in the IAC idle steps and no longer use the 'IAC - Minimum Idle Steps' table. The code will use the learned in IAC steps value.

RBob.

DM91RS

Thank you sir!

And by the way I have not commented yet but the EBL is very nice. Having everything you could want to see on the WUD you can learn just by watching how things react that you could not see before. Playback is very nice and is really when you get to compare items to each other. I have only used it for one full day so I am just getting started. But I can say it is well worth the money.

Rbob has really done well with this.

Dominic Sorresso

RBob,

Turns out I had the #8 Brown wire on the ZT-2 connected to an ECM ground wire. I removed it from there and hooked it to one of the ground terminals on the EBL. Not sure if that would make much of a difference. I apparently did this pre-EBL with the 7747.