BRN in C2 used to be for the AIR system solenoid.

RBob.

 

Ok, so is my ecm the one that has to have extra steps done to get the A/C to work?
Also, My fan wont turn off, its got a 30a 12v relay, signal wire pined to ecm, do I need a gm relay or one with different amperage?

 

In stock form the A/C shouldn't be under ECM control. AFAIK, GM only did that with some cars.

Check the ECM's CTS temperature against the fan on/off thresholds. If OK disconnect the wire from the ECM and see if the fan turns off. Double check that it is in the correct opening of the ECM harness connector.

RBob.

 

Haven't played with getting the fan working but i fixed my pinging /noise issue .
I took my oil pan off to drill a oil drain for the turbo return line and found small rocks and other crap inside . When i did the intake Gasket i tried to vacuum all the debris that fell in but i must off missed some.

So at 2000 rpms the oil pressure raised and while most oil is being circulated the oil pan is low enough to allow the debris to bounce around freely .
Low rpms i could never hear it cause the pressure was low n pan was full of oil.

 

Yikes! That would make me worried about the bearings.

 

Yeah. So far nothing weird is happened . Fingers crossed

 

So I'm doing an emission test today for the 2nd time (first time failed)... what effect would lean cruise have on emissions? There is an idle test and a loaded test (keep mph between like 29-32mph), I set lean cruise to 25mph for the test but will likely put it back to 40mph or so.

 

It failed again, this time everything passed but idle HC PPM. My tests went like this...
Test standards (passing):
HC PPM Loaded: 220
HC PPM Idle: 220
CO % Loaded: 1.20%
CO % Idle: 1.20%
Test 1
HC PPM Loaded: 220
HC PPM Idle: 419
CO % Loaded: 1.06%
CO % Idle: 2.13%

Test 2
HC PPM Loaded: 168
HC PPM Idle: 723 (WTF?!?!?!)
CO % Loaded: 0.59%
CO % Idle: 1.17%

I'm wondering about the O2 sensor. Today was the last day I could drive the truck on current tags, so now I need to get temporary tags for the next time I go to test it... I have a sneaking suspicion it may be the O2 sensor. I was watching the readings while sitting and waiting in line, and it didn't seem to cycle normally like I thought it should. I'm not 100% sure on this because I noticed it only a couple minutes before the 2nd test. Nothing has changed on the truck since I put Vortec heads on, and it passed just fine last year... one of the nice things about AZ's testing system is you can look up test history by VIN.

Test 2012 (Vortecs)
HC PPM Loaded: 76
HC PPM Idle: 153
CO % Loaded: 0.72%
CO % Idle: 1.03%

So, idle PPM almost quintupled, and loaded PPM doubled within the year, I figure CO change is somewhat within reason over the year... could this come from the tune? I'm about to take a look at the tune that passed last year & compare it.

 

Imho high HC is always too rich in some way or another.. Might be a misfire too, so one cylinder mixture is not lighted off properly and therefore unburnt fuel finds its way to the tailpipe. Might be worth checking spark plugs. But I'll let others chime in before making that final

 

Lean cruise causes NOX to increase.

The CA emission calibrations run less SA and a slightly richer AFR. This lowers both NOX & HC. Interesting that AZ doesn't check NOX.

The CO is also slightly higher in the latest tests, which is an indication of a poor burn. If nothing in the tune has been changed between last year & this year, I'd change the oil and replace the spark plugs. While there maybe cap & rotor to along with spark plug wires.

It may also be that the cat-con is going away.

RBob.

 

Ok. I checked the tune and I forgot I did some manual smoothing to the VE tables. It runs better overall after doing this, possibly from running slightly richer, but I don't know quite enough about tuning to know if that wound up just being a bandaid for something else. Next time I'm on the laptop I'll post the tables I used from last year & this year. My guess is I'll go back & pass with last year's tune, then I may flash the current on back in, or just use a hybrid of the 2.

I still have a strange miss between 1800-2100rpm, and can't figure out what it is. I check several of the plugs yesterday and noticed one had what I think was a little oil buildup that had been caked on (it puffs occasionally on a hot startup, but that's it), cleaned it off but it still misses. Checked the coil (MSD Blaster drop in replacement) and it's within factory resistances (0.3-1.0 ohm primary, 6.0k-30.0k ohm secondary). I'm tempted to try the coil out of my Fiero, it's the same style (also appears to be new within the past year+) and I have a feeling they use the same stock coil.

 

Also forgot to ask... Can you give us any details/features of what's in store for the trans controller you're working on? Or is there some legal thing? I'm just wondering if there will be a way to be able to run some sort of torque management thing with current EBL setups, if there will be ANOTHER EBL that runs the e trans (say 93-95 TBI computers), etc.

 

ALSO!!!

I forgot to mention, but I've been having strange issues, thinking it's possible it could be the adapter driver... not sure though. At first I was having problems getting the WUD to display continuously, as in it would show running data, then pause, then continue and pause... it did this erratically. I was also having flash problems, out of maybe 10 tries I managed to get it to flash once, the rest were TX errors.

 

Hey guys, I am having a really frustrating problem that just started after I swapped from an external fuel pump to a in tank walbro 255 pump. I installed it in a different tank that had the baffle. As soon as I went to start it, it took me putting the pedal to the floor to get it started. It is trying to flood itself.

But that isnt my main issue. The main problem is that my idle is absolute crap now. The tune was in really good shape before the fuel pump change and now it doesnt idle worth a darn. It just goes up and down as soon as I push the clutch in or when I am sitting still.

My guess is that the old pump wasnt putting out 45lbs or whatever the factory regulator is set to and now the new pump basically raised the pressure to where it should be. How do I go about getting it to idle smooth again? I have a datalog showing it.
I changed it to a .txt file
Badidle.txt

 

Stock TPI fuel pressure is 43.5 psi (42 - 47 is OK). Put a fuel pressure gauge on it and see what it is. Also, it is a common issue to swap the return and CCP vent lines at the tank. This causes all kinds of havoc.

RBob.

 

I went and checked pressure and it was right around 43-45 at key on and held with the vac line unplugged and it running. Right after stopping at oriellys to do that, I ran home and loaded up my current tune and started to make several test tunes with different changes to test for improvements. While doing so I randomly decided to check on my ve tables since I had been doing learns with my WB over the past couple weeks.

My low speed ve table was a mess, there were spikes all over the idle area and it was in horrible shape in terms of smoothness. So I took some time and smoothed it up and saved it as a test tune with just that as the change. Went and loaded all the new tunes in and started it up. I had the smoothed ve tune as the one to run first. Low and behold it idled nice and smooth like it should.

I have no idea why changing the fuel pump caused the spikes to cause such an issue when it ran decently fine before with the spikes but oh well. Looks like I will have to keep a better watch on my ve tables after each learn.

 

It always pays to go back to a *known* state !
If it fails, as Rbob says, look to the converter.

 

It would be ( was ) enough for me to pull the engine and do a refresh.
At an absolute minimum, pull a cap or two and look at the bearings.

 

Just to update on my tune, I have done away with the surging idle when sitting still. There is still alittle bit of a surge when I push the clutch in to come to a stop. Im technically not at idle since it is still rolling but when it comes down to idle rpm(800) it drops a little low then comes back up and it might do that once or twice till it holds smooth. I can deal with that for the time being.

The main thing I can not seem to solve is my start up. This morning first start it seemed to start up fine. It took alittle cranking but not excessive. I drove into town for breakfest and when I went to leave for work it didnt start up and I had to us the gas to get it started. It was 35deg out when I left the house and the car didnt get to temp by time I got to breakfest.

When I have to use the gas to get it started I have noticed the smell of raw gas. So that is telling me that it is pig rich on startup and flooding itself. My question is, with it having a cold start inj. I originally had the cold start plugged in and just had the prime function tuned out. Should I leave it that way or should I unplug it and use the prime parameters to have it less rich? I figure I should mostly look at the crank afr tables correct? Thanks for the help as always.

 

No need for the cold start injector when using an EBL Flash set up. Can unplug the electrical connector to disable it (as long as it is not leaking).

With an EBL the minimum air setting (IAC & TPS) is not critical. On a warmed up engine with no other loads shoot for the IAC steps of 20 to 25. Can just adjust the idle stop screw for this.

TPS, anywhere from .4V to .8V works.

If the IAC steps were much higher, then opening the throttle blades will likely help with the dipping RPM when coming to a stop. Can adjust this table if it didn't:

IAC - Minimum Idle Steps

Those values are used when returning to idle until the engine is warmed up and learns the proper setting.

Note that the engine coolant temperature needs to exceed this value in order to learn the proper setting:

IAC - Max CTS for Minimum Idle Adjust

RBob.

 

Ok, I had previously set the iac and tps. My steps are right around 10 I believe when to temp with the fan off. I will look into the min idle adjustment setting. Is there a way for it to not be learning the proper setting which then causes it to surge when I push the clutch in while coasting?

And on the cold start issue, I will look into deleting the csi with a block off. If its leaking then I definitely dont want to have it causing havoc.

 

10 steps is a bit on the low side for a MPFI set up.

Check a data log to see what is going on. You may find that the SA is also widely swinging, see what the IAC is doing. Check the CTS against the min CTS threshold for a learn.

RBob.

 

I will try to watch it again, my computer died right after I flashed a tune in with some minor crank changes at lunch. I do recall that my SA will jump around with maybe a max change of 6ish degrees. I will get some better numbers and possibly post a quick datalog sometime tomorrow. Also, the min CTS threshold is set to 80'C so it is below my normal running temp of 95-104'C.

 

I got a datalog of my idle when warm. After watching it I noticed the SA will jump from 18 or 19 straight to 24 and go back and forth between those values pretty rapidly. Is that to much movement at idle? If so what do I need to reduce? My IAC Steps were actually right around 19-20 with the fan off. Here is a datalog, hopefully it will work. It is a zip file.Warmidle.zip

 

I thought we were working on coming to a stop and the RPM bobbles? For the idle and the throttle blips, on the second small blip it goes too rich. Which is why the RPM sags before recovering.

It looks to be too much delta TPS AE, reduce the AE TPS PW table at the 3.1% and 0% rows. That should help.

RBob.

 

I must have misunderstood what you wanted me to datalog, sorry about that. I will try and get a datalog showing the rpm bobble when coming to a stop. As for the AE, i will reduce those spots in that table and go from there. Thank you for the help so far!

 

I would reduce the SA-idle high and low compensation tables by at least 50% I u haven't already .. I reduced mine like 85% from stock and my idle is smooth as a baby's bottom lol .. Might get RBOB to confirm this tho I'm not a pro by any means

Edit : after doing this my sa only moves about 1* at idle and that is only sometimes

 

RBob ! I have a quick ? .. What filter value should I use for my TT-1 ? And also what are the two push buttons labeled fuel & WB for at the end of the afv Chanel setup ?

 

On the TT-1 itself the default works. The medium filter.

With the WUD Preferences dialog, ADC Channels tab. The two columns of Preferred buttons (WB & Fuel) are to select the channels to use for the EB display & VE Learn, along with the fuel pressure transducer channel to display.

This came about as several WB inputs can be used. Just need to select the one to be displayed on the main WUD screen and the Trip screen. And which channel is to be used for the fuel pressure display.

RBob.

 

Ok thanks ! On the filter though .. I got it set to 40% in the adc channel setup .. Is this what ur talking about or is there another filter in the TT-1 utility ? Idk cause I never could get the WB to link up with my laptop so I never touched anything in the utility

 

Thanks for the reply, I just went in and made that adjust ment to the idle compensation tables. I did a 50% drop and will move from there once I can test the results. I will hopefully drive it tomorrow.
Edit: I am also curious about the filter for WB use. I am using a Prosport kit I bought off ebay. It is the EVO series gauges and came with its own self contained controller. Another words I cant hook up a laptop straight to the controller like the TT-1. I am currently using whatever it defaults to, is that fine?

 

I run the WUD filter for the TT-1 at 0% (fast).

RBob.

 

Cool lemme know if that helps any

 

Seemed to smooth out the idle a good bit. I might reduce them a little bit more and see what it does. I also got a datalog of the drive. This should show the little bobble that the rpms do when I push the clutch in and it returns to idle while moving. vesa+.zip

 

Just wanna see what y'all think about my SA table so far I'm still tweaking here n there and I just got rid of the big drop off after 30 kpa that was in the stock TBI cal. Idk we will see what that does .. This is on a stock LO3 with 4.10's 1.6 roller rockers custom/efficient CAI (620 CFM TB & spacer from CFM tech) shorty headers & full exhaust

 

doesnt look too bad to me, but i'm sure others will comment in more detail and with more expertise, too but please tell me you didn't actually take a photo of your screen ^^

 

Are you aware you can LOCK Idle SA at any deg you wish? In constants you will find it. And I believe there is a flag that needs to be set. I believe mine is 20-22 I forget.

 

Yes I did take a pic of my screen actually lol

 

This flag doesn't lock the SA, it only tells the ECM to use a particular value instead of the values from the main SA table. The idle SA compensation is still in affect.

RBob.

 

Mine never sees SA compensation? SA rock steady. I must haved zeroed that out? Laptop not here at office. All I see is coolant temp referenced RPMs changing(IAC).

 

Something is not right in the calibration. During the slowdown & de-clutch at 00:03:23, the IAC is at 10 steps and the SA is at 11* BTDC. That is too low for both.

RBob.

 

I used the base 3006 tune that came with it as a starting point and then changed stuff from there. I didnt think I changed to much other then what I needed to change but who knows. I will email you my tune Bob.

 

Any comments on my SA table posted above ?

 

How are your knock counts looking? I am by no means experienced in tuning the SA table since I am just now starting to get to my SA tables, but from everything I have read you want to have the highest SA while keeping knock counts down and still have it running good. Once you get close to knock, the few degrees you lower it to stay away from knock shouldnt effect performance. Does it seem to run smooth without any issues?

 

Well I haven't been able to drive it since I got rid of the big drop off after 30 KPA ( wrkin 7-12's on night shift :-/ ) so idk about that part yet but I know the rest of the grid is pretty good as far as knock count and it runs fairly well I usually don't see more than 2-3 counts at a time in just a few random scattered cells here n there under 30kpa.... Just trying to get everything roughed in still .. I still need to tweak my Ve some .. Which it's a little on the rich side for now , then AE & PE as well

 

Thats about where my counts are for the knocks after switching to the TB2 SA Main tables that came with the EBL. I smoothed it out some and think I might be able to go up in a few spots where I havent got any knocks. Here are my screenshots of my table and a datalog screenshot showing knocks. This is from a short drive into town though.

 

NO ! NO ! NO !

In case you missed it, NO !!

The best advance is called "minimum best" which means you want the least advance that does not sacrifice performance. Minimum means minimum !

Remember, too rich or timing too late and you replace fouled spark plugs.
Too lean, or too much advance, you buy internal engine parts !

Read anything you can find on this web site by Grumpy !
The man knew what he was talking about, more often than not.

In actual matter of fact, what you really want is the maximum cylinder pressure between 13 and 17 degrees after top center, depending on the rod/stroke ratio.

 

[quote=Cflick;5512159]
The best advance is called "minimum best" which means you want the least advance that does not sacrifice performance. Minimum means minimum !
[quote]

Before I continue, I want to say I know exactly where I stand on this as being a complete novice at tuning and knowledge in it. I know I need done to me on multiple occasions so there are no hard feelings when I am corrected.

I thought that I had read somewhere along the way that you get max performance without detonation(knock) when you reach a SA high enough were you dont get knock. Also that performance from a SA side of things doesnt change in a noticeable amount whether your at the "minimum best" or at the point of just below where knock occurs.

So when I read that, my mind thinks "so if performance doesnt change from the minimum best to the point just below knock(in terms of SA) then either way is the correct way to reach that point."

If the motor isn't knocking then it most likely isn't detonating(as long as the knock sensor and associated items work properly) and it isn't to high of a SA. Am I correct to assume that?

I do agree that it is best to be on the minimum side of that sprectrum though.

 

Sorta.
Minimum Best Torque is the point at which adding advance does not increase torque, but it definitely does reduce any safety margin between MBT and broken parts. That margin might be 10 degrees, or it might be 2 degrees, depending on head design, temperature that day, octane, humidity in the air....
Thing is, the point at which detonation occurs is not a constant !
It varies with temperature, fuel blend, AFR, humidity.... ( temperature and fuel blends are most dominant )

Some think that way. I don't. ( I've seen broken rings from detonation that wasn't detected )
(( heck, I've seen nitro methane blow the cylinder head clean off from ONE detonation. Nothing to detect before that )) Very "not pretty."

There is one school of thought that says to simply stay a couple degrees before obvious knock, but that requires advancing into detonation to find that point dynamically. Kinda sorta like setting enough advance to always be into the knock sensor, and depending on the computer to save the engine each time a plug fires.
In my mind, not a good plan.
Also depends on geometry, else you're advanced enough the engine is trying to run backwards. Some will do that without triggering detonation. ( low compression ratio, very high octane fuels, like alcohol ) Usually, when you do get detonation in that kind of engine, parts break almost immediately.

"most likely" true, but not necessarily absolute.
In fact, most engines will benefit slightly from incipient knock, ( cleans the combustion chamber ) but that is such a critical point that one degree may mean disaster.

The geometry of the engine determines exactly where you want the peak cylinder pressure, usually somewhere between 13 and 17 degrees ATDC. The degree of advance required to achieve that depends entirely on the burn rate in that chamber at that pressure at that AFR on that day at that time.
Detonation almost always occurs somewhere between 15 and 30 degrees ATDC.
Notice any overlap there ?
The MBT point is a relatively broad peak, about 4 degrees wide, so +/- 2 degrees will show no noticeable change. If you read the archives you'll notice recommendations to tweek in two degree increments. Wonder why that is ?

The safe way, some of us consider the "correct" way, is to start with timing retarded enough to show a definite drop in performance, then advance two degrees and run it. If things improve, advance two degrees and run it again. Repeat until no improvement is found, then back off two degrees and leave it alone.
Very time consuming. ( especially when you consider every cell in the timing table )
Quicker, is a dyno. A real water brake or eddy current dyno, not a heavy roller accelerometer. As good or better are in-cylinder pressure measurements, but far from cheap, not easy, and only slightly less time consuming than the dyno method.

 

That was a really good explanation and honestly cleared a lot of misconceptions up for me. Thanks for taking the time to go into detail on that. I hope it helps more then just me.