Eh.
14.7 is stoich. That's to make the cat work properly. Since you say yours is hollow ( something *I* would never do intentionally ) you'll never pass California E-check anyway, so that doesn't really matter. Whatever AFR the engine likes, produces a smooth steady idle, is what you're after, somewhere between 12 and 15 at idle.
You didn't mention fuel pressure. Somewhere close to stock, 11 or 12 PSI ?

 

Because it's so easy to switch calibrations, for me........
I run a fairly significant, relatively long-ish in time and miles, through as much range as possible with no smoothing at all. If it's enough, the learn is making insignificant changes, or "flip flopping" around very small changes in the cells that get touched.
Now, I'll apply various degrees of smoothing. Some by hand, to keep the cells the learn tweeked as close as I can to where the learn put it, some by machine. ( fast and easy )
Now, with the last "known good" calibration in slot one, and various degrees of smoothing in the other calibration slots, go drive them all closed loop. Slot 1 is the previous cal, slot 2 is no smoothing at all. Above that, various degrees in various areas of the main VE tables.
Pick the one that logs the smallest BLM range tweeks, and call it good. Work further with that one, until the BLM stays within a range +/- 5 or so throughout, looking for an average BLM that floats around 128 on an "average" day. ( I figure the purpose of BLM is day to day compensations, so as long as it can stay within range, I figure the 128 "ideal" is a target that won't be maintained over-all with weather changes )
Then, leave it alone, and move on to other things. Prop gains, AE, PE, possibly a degree or two in the timing table, tweek a temp compensation table.... Maybe the weather changed....
When it all looks "pretty good" it's time to start over at the beginning.
When performance is acceptable, MPG is good, BLM stays ( more or less ) +/- 4 or 5, I haven't blown pieces of the dual 3 inch cats out the pipe on the garage floor ( again ) and I haven't blown a piston through a cylinder wall ( again ) and it passes E-check, then I'm probably where I want to be.
KEEP THAT TUNE ! Make three copies on three different disks, with notes.
Anything after that is experimental, ( like lean cruise ) or due to changing some part, like a different air cleaner, or the EPA has changed the gasoline again.
How many years has it been ? 8? 10 ? I'm close enough now to mostly just drive it, but I'm still pushing lean cruise a bit. I've even considered converting this cal and putting the 7747 back in, but it just doesn't have the ability to make the tweeks that the EBL does, so it's not really realistic.

 

The cAFR is the commanded AFR, quite different then the actual AFR. Since it isn't at stoich (usually 14.7), that means that the ECM is in open loop.

After adjusting the BPC, AE and Prop gains tables due to the larger injectors, get the engine up to temperature and into closed loop. The ECM will then use the INT & BLM (short & long term fuel trims) to get the fueling close to stoich.

Can then do some VE Learns (BLM based) to get the VE tables better.

RBob.

 

It's been a while since I looked at Part 2 of the tuning document. I see several things that are relevant to the needs of my tune. Thanks for the reminder that the document exists as a resource for all of us.


Dave
Rochester NY.

 

Are you using a vac referenced fuel pressure reg?

setting BPC as RBob referred to is step one. 80 lb injectors(we might say they are 75) flows a lot of fuel. Odds are the table RBob refered to needs to be changed.

I run 75 lbs inj's at 21 lbs FP with VAFPR with a similar cam 350 cid.

 

Cflick,

I was wondering if u used smoothing w the TPRT and the %s like 80% or 90% and what that means.
Like u, I continue w the "Learns" until I start to see the flip flops on VE. I also use TPRT to outline where the Learn has made changes and them smooth points in between following the trend I observe. If I have a sawtooth pattern, I try to lower part way and raise part way on either side basically averaging out the change. However, I can't seem to leave well enough alone. DAMN YOU RBob!
As an example, I am playing now w injector Bias. I use 23# Accels which are not stock. The VE table is not "smooth". However, the motor runs well. But the Ostrich connected. Gotta change something.
Well, its clear that the IB has been wrong because increased it and now the motor runs pig rich. Unfortunately, ACCEL doesn't provide IB data for their injectors. So it's sort of a requirement to interpolate from other data. But what I have found is that with the IB being more accurate, it has diminished significantly the delta between left and right bank BLMs. Wonder if anyone else has made that observation?

 

Thanks for the help Bob. I verified everything you said and made the changes suggested. Engine still runs very rich after a few VE drives. "Black smoke and burning eyes" I've reduced the AE and prop gains 20 percent fuel pressure is 43psi. engine runs much better than when I started so at least I'm moving forward. My VE tables are getting low again in the same areas as before. I've been smoothing the tables but beginning to worry because I'm subtracting so much. My tables don't have the same curve as the ones I've seen posted I'll try to post them today. Appreciate everyone's help!

 

rbob-trying to make sense of the table in p4 3006-open loop-afr vs rpm vs vac,
it has richer values at lower loads/vac?
I was going to change all values to 14.7 for ve learn with the tt1 wide band. Sound reasonable?

 

I wouldn't think so. I'm sure others are more knowledgeable in that regard.

As I understand it, you would be saying there is no reason to add fuel under greater load, or reduce it under less load. Keep in mind it's only an open loop table. Once you hit closed loop the table has minimal effect, unless you've checked off flags, like to idle in open loop.

 

From a previous post.

Take a look at the 3001 BIN. That one is for a similar cam'd engine. It has a steep VE table at the lower to mid-range RPMs. Even a funny dip in it at 2400 RPM.

One item that is important is the injector compensation values. Not sure if anything has been done with them.

RBob.

 

The density of the mix is so low that it becomes hard to light off. Hence the addition of fuel to help prevent misfiring.

No need to, leave the table alone and lock out closed loop. Set this parameter high:

Closed Loop - CTS Threshold

RBob.

 

No need to, leave the table alone and lock out closed loop. Set this parameter high:

Closed Loop - CTS Threshold

RBob.[/QUOTE]

Yes, planning on doing that, however doesn't the open loop ve learn then target the values in that table?

 

It does target those AFRs. Since that is the commanded AFR, is used in the injector PW calculation, it works.

What I usually do is after the initial NB VE Learn is done (to get vehicle driveable), go to a WB VE Learn. Get everything covered, even WOT. Once all that is good do a single, BLM mode, long (45 minutes at least), VE Learn.

The reason for that last BLM VE Learn is that closed loop doesn't always target stoich. The stoich AFR is a starting point. The real target is the upper & lower O2 sensor target tables.

RBob.

 

So if one were to narrow those tables slightly would that help confine lean / rich extremes?
Try 5% change on both ends? Lower the top, raise the bottom?

 

Now trying to comprehend the wot fueling.
ebl p4, tpi batch fire. Say I do ve learn with wideband-it also does wot-correct?
I adjust the pe afr commanded-that uses wideband-correct?
But for someone without a wideband-or if I take the wideband out after tuning-how does it then determine wot fueling?
In 8d it has a table -pe %change to fuel air ratio vs rpm, that retains info for wot. Is there a table in ebl that also retains that info?
Or does it calculate wot -pe afr commanded from the ve table? Or directly use wideband if present only?

 

Try it, see how it is. It may be better or it may be worse.

RBob.

 

Yes, a WB based VE learn also learns at WOT. However, it can take some time to gather enough data to make a correction. Winging it through 1st and 2nd usually doesn't do the trick. A longer pull in 3rd is better.

No, set the PE AFR to what the engine wants. Then adjust the VE table to get the WB reported AFR there.

WOT throttle fueling is based on the PW equation (actually all fueling):

PW = BPC * MAP * ~T * ~AFR * VE * BLM * DFCO * DE +- CLT

Note the ~AFR in the equation, that is the inverse commanded AFR. As the commanded AFR gets richer (smaller number) it makes the PW larger.

Note that the EBL P4 uses displacement and injector flow in place of the BPC value.

Note that in PE/WOT mode the BLM is only used when at 128 or greater.

Yes, the "PE - AFR Commanded" table.

See the above equation for the PW, the VE is included. The EBL systems at this time do not do live AFR correction based on a WB input.

RBob.

 

I'm real big on "processing in post" as we say "in the biz."
As such, once a data run is collected, I'll analyze it using TPRT yes, as well as utilizing the log playback in What'sUp, comparing, re-analyzing, etc.
It usually takes me longer ( much longer ) to generate a candidate replacement table than it took to gather the data to create it from.

Unfortunately, it's been a while. Since the truck gets ( now ) 12 MPG, and I have access to a car that gets twice that.....
Considering the truck was getting something like 8 when I had it out to Bob's place last, it's a considerable improvement, but $$ talks. ( especially the last few years when I've had a greater scarcity of $$ than anytime I can remember ) (( mostly school taxes ))

 

I'm trying to figure out which bin to start with for my new build .. I'll have my new heads in Wednesday an the engine will be done ! An hopefully in the car this weekend so I'm setting here on the laptop thinking way too hard lol ..... I'm thinkin I will stRt with the bin with the 113 heads ? And swap over my VE and SA tables ? Here is my combo ---> 305 .030 over , speed pro hyper flattop pistons , trick flow super 23 175cc heads 56cc chamber , summit dual plane intake ported and gasket matched to fel pro 1205 and center divided "notched", Howard's HR cam 488/495 lift w/ 1.6RR .520/.528 lift 264/270 adv. duration 214/218 @ .050 ..... Any tips or anything would b greatly appreciated as I have never had to come up with a base tune for a newly built engine and hope it fires ! Also I only had about 8 months worth of tuning under my belt before I pulled the motor :-/

Oh and I'm running a 620 cfm TBI with 68# injectors and aero motive VRFPR .... What FP should I start with ?

 

With my WB finally installed it has already proven how valuable it is as a tuning tool. I have decided to start over again from a base tune to redo my VE tables with the use of the wide band and then compare them to how they turned out with the NB. I have a few learn questions if anyone could offer up some advice. Since I started off with some stock ve tables and my learns want to pull a ton of fuel from the get go would I be better off using a higher smoothing factor. I've had it set to 1 or 2 and I have sharp drop offs in my table when a learn accures next to an area that the learn hasn't touched yet. So I'm assuming with a higher smoothing factor this will make this less dramatic. My second question which I'm pretty sure I'm right here and should of been doing from the get go is OverDrive. Should I be doing my learns in 3rd instead of OD to help achieve learns in higher rpm and map areas?

 

305 is about 25% less than a 350. My cam is close to yours. Heads are a wash. I am runnin 75 lbs injs. I am at 22 lbs FP. I will say 16-18 lbs. If you VE is over 98 then up fuel pressure.

Not sure why but my areas of high VE values is 2000 rpms. Puzzles me. No exhaust leaks.

 

If you read what I scribbled above....

I'd avoid smoothing, or in any way tampering with the areas that did learn.
So, you might try smoothing, and compare to an unsmoothed map.
the "dramatic" changes you are seeing are the engine telling you what it wants in the cells it's had an opportunity to do so. I'd listen to it.

I'd run whatever gears, hills, loads, even pull a trailer, to get the learn to cover as much of the map as possible, if it were me.
The trick is usually getting to stay in a cell long enough to register a learn or three in any particular cell.

 

I'm almost in agreement with that, other than to say manually smooth the unlearned areas to get them closed to the learned areas There isn't any need (at this point) to unlearn what has been done so far.

The VE learns you've done thus far should give you a fairly food idea of what direction things are going for the surrounding unlearned areas. Even if you split the difference between in the old areas by bringing them halfway to the learned areas, it will help speed up the process for you. So keep the learned areas in place, and help the unlearned areas nearby with manually smoothing of unlearned data points.

If the VE Learn process wants to change a previously "learned " point, it will do so on it's own anyway during your future sessions You'll likely see further refinements even in areas that have supposedly been learned , so no need to mess with them yet.


Dave

 

Thanks Ronny .... Anyone else got any answers to some of my questions ? I'm hoping to have the engine bolted up today an have I running Monday when I can get some fuel lines made .... What do y'all think about using the bin for the 113 heads and copying over my old VE tables ? The instructions for the Trick flow heads say to use 36-38* total timing for best performance

 

I had TFS 23d heads on my 84. Liked 38d at WOT.

 

I'm really thinking about just using the LO3 bin I had been modifying before I pulled the motor ... And just removing like 3 degrees across the SA table just to b safe on initial firing .... Also what should I do to the VE tables for the cam and compression increase ? The cam is not huge but definitely a lot more than a stock Lo3 cam lol .... I just really don't know where to start as far as making a base bin for an engine combination nobody else has ? .... I had the thing tuned pretty dang good before I pulled it but like I said it was just a stock engine with exhaust ,1.6rr ,headers ,TB, CAI, and rear gears , I went 9.802 @ 73 in 1/8 so I think that was tuned quite well for a mostly stock LO3 to run those times !i just need a little help with getting a bin that will crank the engine without excessive spark knock, and extremely lean or rich conditions .. Thanks for any help !

 

rbob-got the wb tt1 wired in with the ebl and running.
Started ve learns on narrowband first(way nicer than the old way!). If you recall the prior 730 ecm with p4 board would lose comm/stall out in a few minutes and would not even restart untill it sat for aprox 10 min.
Now I've been able to run it for about 20 min. or so. Then at times it will suddenly stall at idle, will restart immediatly. If it's at upper rpms it will cut out briefly, then continue running.
Keeps thowing est code 42 and at times throws code 51, stalls and doesn't want to restart for a while after that one.
Swapped back the old ecm with one bar map and 8d-runs fine.
Is it just my bad luck?!

 

Sat overnight everything cooled off. Now with ebl within a minute throws code 42 and stalls or trys to stall. Swapped back old 730 and 8d-no codes, runs fine. tried completely removing the jumper on p4 board-no change. Anything else to check before trying another one?
Also I've run the tt1 wires thru this cover-can you swap the covers so I keep this one?
Thanks, Pete.

 

I wouldn't remove spark timing from an L03 calibration while using those heads. They are going to want more spark advance. Try the Main & Extended SA tables from the 3006 BIN.

RBob.

 

Don't connect any wires to the ground terminal of the EBL P4 board. Run the two grounds to the engine block.

RBob.

 

Done and that fixed it, thank you!!!!!
Now just have to sort out the surging idle, but it's not stalling any more even with the surge.

 

Thanks ! Should have this thing running by Wednesday !!!!! Can't flippin wait !

 

below bears repeating-an earlier post(2011) by lakeffect2. My surge was really bad, to the point where I was chasin my tail and this cleaned it up real quick.
___________________________________________________________________
I've had past surging idles issues as well.
Upon recommendation of fellow members , I changes two things significantly which helped.

At the target idle RPM speed on both my fuel and spark charts, I had to make sure there was very minimal change going to the next few boxes in any direction. I had to smooth my data points so there was less of a slope from point to point in any direction of change of rpm or kpa.


For fuel, I'm idling at 800rpm at 60kpa, all those cells are nearly the same amount. Essentially, it created a "bowl" for the idle to sit in. Instead of seeing lots of fuel and spark changes over small change increments of rpm or kpa that cause the surge, it sees relatively no change at all in my target area.( at least in this case).
There is a "flat spot" in my spark chart as well, but not so extensive.


Although I would anticipate this is not the only strategy that could prove useful, nor perhaps not the best one, it seems to help my engine immensely. It now has a very smooth flat idle, and with a recently added wideband O2 sniffer, I've also seen the need to cut a lot of fuel at idle and was able to get rid of much "Stinky" as well. (I've been surprised at how little fuel it needed on the Low rpm fuel table as a whole)

__________________________________________________________________

 

I have Tuner Pro open trying to tweek the Speed'o' that I tweeked to try to at least get the computer rite. I went the wronge way with it and now the EBL thinks I'm going 157 mph. No big deal I thought except not when I open it to the BIN it says No XDF selected. I can't do anything with it now. I tried to select a XDF but there is nothing to select. I have no Parameter tree to choose from. It is empty I have nothing to adjust.

 

The XDF file should be found here:

C:\Program Files\Dynamic EFI\EBL Flash

Can copy & paste that path into the Tuner Pro dialog when opening the XDF file.

RBob.

 

I went there and it lead to users BINs. Then it opens and says no XDF selected so I can't do any thing to it. I need to tweek some things and can't.

 

Reinstall the CD, either the files were deleted or they were moved.

RBob.

 

I don't have the cd any more. I asked you for a new one and you sent me a link.

 

Email sent.

RBob.

 

Surging idle-and on coast down to idle-1500 rpm 35 map on down to idle surging.
I'm sure the est problem adds a lot to it at times however it's still there.
I increased the prop gain offset for idle as suggested by rbob. Up to 25, and tried different values.
There is also prop gain duration for idle. Whay effect does this one have-which way to go on the value for the surging idle?

 

The prop duration doesn't do much, it is more of a suggestion. Note that this is in V1.1 of the EBL P4, and V2.2 of the EBL. This is being changed and the EBL SFI-6 already has a true duration.

Try open loop and see if the surging is still there. If so it isn't due to proportional gains. Most of the time surging is caused by lean areas of the VE table. On coast down (closed TPS) the ECM is likely going open loop already. The open loop decel flag is set in the supplied calibrations.

RBob.

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ng-points.html

Above is from stickies. Speakes of prop gains/duration.

 

hi guys have a question what brand 0-5v sensors are most of you guys using?
im looking for something affordable, so far I want fuel psi, oil psi
already have depo racing wb02 with 0-5v output wich I will be using as well.
was also thinking a drive shaft speed sensor.
thanks

 

After reading that I loaded 2 bins with different prop gain offset for idle settings to flip between. one at 25 and one at zero. The zero settled it way down, however I havn't had a chance to see how it effects the surge on coast down yet.

 

My experience has been to lower the Prop Gain on a cammed engine. Idle seems to be affected the most so my PG is very low at low airflow. Flattening VE in the low MAP/low RPM areas really helps.

 

I've switched to using Honeywell pressure sensors. Here is a 100 psi sensor with a male 1/8" NPT pressure connection and the small triangular 3-pin electrical connection (TPS style):

Mouser #: 785-MLH100PGB06A
Mfr. #: MLH100PGB06A
Desc.: Industrial Pressure / Force Sensors 5V 0psi to 100psi AMPLIFI GAGE 25 Ohm

www.mouser.com

RBob.

 

thanks,

 

Alright EBL masters.... Im finally making progress with this tune took me 3 weeks to get the fueling under control since the car had bigger injectors than I thought. Car is running much better, Im loving this EBL! Now Im getting spark knock at high rpms. Ive zeroed out the PE SA so Im working off the main tables only. Ive lowered the SA down to 28-30 degrees in the areas of knock and im still getting it. From my reading and these threads my heads should be able to have 32-36 without knock. I also know its not false knock because I used the stock SA tables that only have like 20 degrees in the high KPA areas with PE advanced zeroed and I had no spark knock. My SA table is based off of the 5.4 113 EBL calibration with the higher areas lowered to reduce knock. Should I just keep lowering it until the knock is gone and give the engine what it wants or am I doing something wrong here. Base timing also matches the the bin. I have it set at 7 degrees with the EST disconnected.

 

I also have added a lot of extra fuel to my VE tables in the 90-100 kpa range to ensure its not from a lean condition. Heres a few screen shots of my data log from a wot takeoff I backed off when the WUD picked up the knock what do you guys think. I dont know how to post the entire data log so this is the best I could do.

 

Sorry engine is a 383 with 113 heads with some port work and larger valves. .510 lift 230/244 duration cam with 112lsa 10.3 cr. Edelbrock tpi base and runners with long tube headers.