Sorry I didn't get a chance to get those screen shots yesterday. I'll try and remember again today. I'm gonna give it another go with the 80# injectors when I get the rear back in the truck this weekend. If i can stick with these injectors I will although I do like the idea of an external regulator. I have some questions in regard to the upper VE table as well as PE. If 14.7 is the targeted stoich afr when cruising and lets say targeted PE is 12.5 does this take into affect how my upper VE table shapes up. Meaning if I'm driving the only time I'll really touch the upper VE table is when I'm really getting on it and going WOT in which case I would be in PE and targeting a different AFR then 14.7. If thats the case then when doing VE learns in the upper table and WOT with my wideband should I change all the cells in the PE AFR table to read 14.7? or would I disable PE by changing the tps threshold get my tables inline and then once thats done change my PE AFR to 12.5. Another thing I noticed is in the PE/Openloop AFR tables the AFR varies from 12-14 in different areas why is this? Would I be fine just setting it where I want it in all cells? I've also been seeing some posts about the true stoich of todays pump fuel. Lately I've been running regular 87 I plan to switch to 93 in the future after I get the bulk of the tune straightened out. Most pumps I see are 10% ethanol so would it be smart to assume I should be targeting a lower AFR?

 

You can not be in PE and yet be in the higher rpm/map areas of VE table. It is just that that is not seen in everyday driving. Besty way to obtain that is on a one mile oval race track.

I have not seen that table. I will have to look for it. maybe related to OL learn with WB in OL. PE A/F values vary for RPM I recall. Due to load. Higher load at higher RPMs requires a richer PE A/F. Might be load is higher due to air and tire resistance at high MPH. Cylinder temps are reduced by enrichment...

 

I apologize if my terms are incorrect they're coming from memory as I'm at work. What do you mean by you cannot be in PE and also in high rpm/map areas? When I go into high VE/MAP areas the PE indicator on the WUD lights up. I suppose I could just leave it in 1st gear to safely reach those areas on a back road. What I'm having trouble understanding is how it all comes into play at high rpm/map. Am I supposed to be targeting 14.7 stoich across the board when doing learns? When I said PE/Openloop I didn't mean that was a whole table my mistake I ment to say the openloop AFR and PE AFR tables. If I go WOT or just get aggressive and bring the rpms up fast it goes into PE but as of right now when that happens my AFR drops to 10 and stays there. I know my upper ve tables are still way off but I'm just lost as to why people say just keep doing more learns with steady throttle focusing in those areas. What am I supposed to be basing the learns off of? Do I want to have them read 14.7 stoich without PE? Since those areas are typically aggressive driving do the tables need to be set around stoich and then the PE richens up the AFR? Using my wideband for the learns the openloop afr table varies like you said for different load conditions. The whole openloop AFR is confusing I do and also don't understand how its used. Obviously if I'm running the engine in forced openloop to do learns its using the AFR's commanded in the openloop table but they're not set to stoich and I don't understand why that is. Lol whenever I think I'm starting to get the hang of this stuff I get a little more lost which makes me more determined but it can be frustrating. The more I type trying to explain myself seeking the desired answers to my questions even my questions become confusing to myself haha.

Ok I found a good sticky I know Ive read these all a few times but it takes awhile to sink in. Here's the sticky https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...gh-rpm-ve.html RBob explains it pretty clearly. One of my questions still remain though. Should I be targeting 14.7 in the upper tables even tho in the real world I won't truly want to see 14.7 because I'm wanting maximum power not mpg in those areas.

 

whatif, as Rbob pointed out smaller injectors at higher pressure and VRFPR is in general the better way to go, but also more money and work to accommodate that.
Have you re-checked your BPC and fuel pressure? Since your VE is off I wouldn't have too much hope for getting AE right, but ye 10's AFR is really rich so might still give it a try to get it in line. Maybe hook us up with a short log to figure out AE. I agree tho that this can be hard to grasp with all the tables and the filter's influence..

damnit i missed the new page in this thread lol..

huh? PE is just TPS triggered as you pointed out. in most cases TPS > PE_thres means you're seeing high(er) MAP, too. for learning in those areas i recommend a steep hill grade, otherwise there's no chance to keep in in those cells for a long enough time to learn that in. i like keep going up and down that hill a dozen times to get it right
or otherwise you can take a look at where your WB AFRs are in a log where you hit PE, and go from there adjust VE manually, in case you can't learn it in.

pretty sure he's referring to the OL AFR tables..

whatif, if you check your WUD there's the cAFR reading, showing the commanded AFR. in PE this will be in the 12.x range or whatever you set it to, and in OL (cold engine) it should read the values from the mentioned OL AFR tables. plus/minus whatever modifiers are active.
I've myself wondered if, for doing learns, it might be good to set them all to 14.7, but i'm not sure this is a common (and good) practice?

"Obviously if I'm running the engine in forced openloop to do learns its using the AFR's commanded in the openloop table but they're not set to stoich and I don't understand why that is. Lol whenever I think I'm starting to get the hang of this stuff I get a little more lost which makes me more determined but it can be frustrating."
that is quite normal on imho most technical subjects (trust me i'm an engineer lol) - you usually find another can of worms at the bottom of the can you think you just emptied up there's always more details to learn, it's just a question of how deep you wanna go into it. dont give up yet just take your time.. let me tell you it can take years to get all the hang of this, well at least that's from my own experience.

one more on the purpose of VE Learn. since at ANY operating point the fueling will be based on VE, as outlined above, there's always a relationship between cAFR and reported (WB, or in CL INT/BLM) AFR. assuming all the rest of the modifier tables are correct (which they most likely aren't), VE Learn will change the operating point's VE values / modify the VE table in order to get the reported AFR spot on what the commanded AFR is. regardless if that cAFR is 10.5:1 or 16:1. well, at least that's with a WBO2.. i think a NBO2 has no chance of getting a reading close to the actual AFR for anything too far from stoich (e.g. PE tuning).
i haven't looked closely at the link you posted yet but should be interesting.

as for the E10 AFRs i think drive-it was trying to figure that out in closed loop as well.. i think it sounds like a good idea to shoot for the required richer AFRs, for stoich CL operation but also for whatever must be added to get the same effect from PE as at lower/no ethanol gasoline blends.

hth

p.s. after reading rbob's first post in that linked thread: he states "For the commanded AFR you will need to flatten the open loop AFR tables (two of them). This way you will know what the AFR is being commanded to be (unless using a Lockers high speed data acquisition system, then you will have the commanded AFR along with the WB AFR at the same time)." - so it seems the OL AFR tables (the exact name seems to be "Open Loop - AFR vs RPM & VAC") should be flattened to 14.7 i guess?

 

Note the area I put in bold. The EBL has the Lockers high speed data acquisition.

The only reason I mention flattening the AFR table in that thread, is that the commanded AFR is not available in the ALDL stream. So the only way to know what it is is to force it to a known value.

When doing VE Learns (via the WUD), the commanded AFR is compared to the WB reported AFR. The adjustment to the VE table is based on that comparison.

RBob.

 

So the VE learn compares the reported AFR to the commanded AFR and then makes up the difference meaning if the reported is higher or lower then the commanded AFR the learn will pull it in that direction to reach the commanded AFR. Could you explain why the AFR's listed in the Openloop tables are different then 14.7 then? Would there be any benefit to changing them all to 14.7?

 

Yes, this is when VE Learns are done in open loop via a WB set up. In closed loop the BLM is used to adjust the VE tables.

Cold engines don't like to run at 14.7 AFR. And, some folks run open loop only, having the AFR table set up as such provides for better driveability (at the cost of fuel mileage).

No.

RBob.

 

What about PE how does that effect a VE learn in openloop. If I'm trying to do an openloop VE learn with my wideband especially in the upper rpms I'm going to be in PE unless I disable it which I've been advised againest doing. If the commanded openloop AFR is different then the commanded PE AFR how does that affect the learn? Should PE be changed temporarily to match openloop commanded AFR until your finished with your VE tables?

 

that's a very good point. yeah, the post i quoted was from 2005 or so, quite outdated at least now i know how it was done back then

question on that, i noticed that all the EBL bins that come with the CD are setup with their OL AFR tables how i think whatif here was asking on, the OL AFR changes with operating point from i think 13.8 to 15.3 .. i'm also a bit in the dark on what that is based on. i think the quoted comment is more towards the OL AFR CTS table?

@whatif, VElearn works in PE exactly the way it works in LeanCruise (HiWay) or in closed loop or.. it just changes the VE cell to reflect the difference between the current commanded AFR (which is like 12.x in PE) and the reported WB AFR, at that point. which is why it needs somewhat stable conditions to get a consistent (or better: filtered) reading.
look at the fueling formula in the thread you linked to!

 

So I finally got a new boost valve and Corvette servo in the trans, didn't really help much, time for a 2-4 band... while I was out driving around and testing, I also plugged in the new USB/serial adapter I got with FTDI instead of Prolific (Prolific causes all sorts of problems, at least for me). It's also the first time I had a chance since fixing the vacuum leak I didn't even know I had (still idled at 700rpm even though it had this leak). I plan on doing more driving/learns after the trans is fixed, but this was from 4 consecutive runs, and it shows how much of a difference fueling is affected at high vacuum levels.

 

So last night after work I spent a few hours looking at my 2 1/4 mile runs I datalogged before I destroyed my u joint and cracked my bell housing lol. I remembered exactly how the runs went as I had bogged off the line and twice down the track. I spent a few hours looking them over and now I clearly understand what is going on with my tune as well as my confusion over PE. So I apologize for all the grade school questions. It really took awhile to sink it. I clearly need to spend more time with my upper VE tables since the only areas I've touched where in the lower part of the upper table and there was a big jump from 83-98 PE and thats where my bogging was coming from. As far as AE is concerned how long as AE actually last it looks like its only a split second before I'm out of it and into PE. Is it so fast the WB barely picks it up because it appears that way. Since I'm so rich at 90 map that would also be why I'm not seeing it on the WB since at 90 map I'm at 10 AFR when I mash the pedal to the floor off the line.

While doing my burn out I noticed I went over 100% duty cycle but during my runs I was only at maybe 70%. I believe this may be because my tables still arn't done. During my run I was at 90 map and 92% ve but during my burn out I went straight to 100 map which still hasn't been touched so it sits at 100% ve.

And one more thing while sitting at idle I noticed my IAC steps were at 0 I dunno why after I while I need to adjust it every so often but at idle with 0 steps after startup on a warm engine the AFR will sit where it should but after a while it drops from around 14.5 into the 12 AFR range. Is this from fuel pooling up on the butterflys from it having 0 steps and then dumping into the throttle bores?

 

here is another very short and fairly aggressive data log for anyone with tuning knowledge to take a look at ... any help would be very much appreciated ... I tried to pause the log while just cruising then unpause while I was getting on it a little ... stupid floormat got under the pedal a couple times though lol ... please help me get this thing dialed in !!!!! im really fairly new to this whole tuning thing and while tuning the stock engine was fairly easy this is a little more complicated :-o

 

The analysis display & dump of the log file show when AE and PE is active. See the next post for more AE tuning info.

AE can easily take the DC% over 100.

It is normal to require tweaking of the idle stop screw while tuning. As the tune gets better the idle tends to increase.

RBob.

 

Looking at the data log starting at 0:45:53, good info here. Note that the car went from 26 MPH to 41 MPH is 1 second. Not too shabby at that...

On that pedal-mash there was a lot of AE, this caused the AFR to go rich and bog the engine a little. Same area of the log we have this from the dump:

Can see the typical lean spike, then the AFR goes too rich. Need to reduce the AE, using the dTPS column that shows where in the TPS PW table the AE PW is being taken from.

Note that it is in the 29 to 45 dTPS% area.

The MAP is also contributing to AE, but by about half as much as the TPS AE. See the TpsAE and MapAE data columns. Those values are from the AE PW tables.

Note that the MAP AE table used is in the 28 to 48 dMAP area.

Need to reduce the two AE PW tables in the areas noted above.

The aePW data column is the amount of AE PW that is used. This value is after the RPM & CTS compensations are done.

RBob.

 

how do you work out the lean spike, if possible?

 

Can reduce it by running open loop with richer then stoich AFRs.

RBob.

 

so assuming you're talking OL all-time operation with richer AFRs, that's basically a "not at all" answer then for most street vehicles?
i understood your answer that way that you would have to run richer AFR kinda at the point or before the throttle actually opens to be able to feed the engine at the short time frame between AE kicking in and the TPS actually opening?

 

There is a filter for AE TPS and MAP. A smaller value will bring in AE sooner evemt will be larger quantity and duratin longer. So then you may want to reduce the AE values as well or consider changeing the quantity at the specific RPM you wish.

 

well yes but could you bring it soon enough to avoid the initial lean spike at all? especially in high dTPS situations, like 40+ in that log snippet

 

May be a constraint of TBI. Atomization issues and all that. Heat to intake plenum will help.

 

I have a few questions about CCP. I did a few searches and couldnt find all the answers I was looking for.

First, what is the charcoal canister purge (CCP) system for? I always thought it had to do with gas vapors and sending them back to the tank?
What does having a CCP system improve and if it's there should we go ahead and use it? Does it improve gas milage?

Why do we disable CCP when doing VE learns?

This is what my current option words are set to for my tune. From the looks of it, it looks like I've had it disabled this entire time?
Whenever I do VE learns I've always got a plug and capped the line going from the front of the TBI to the CCP cylinder.

CCP - set to enable charcoal cannister purge
UN Checked

CcpCl - set to required closed loop for CCP active
Checked

CcpNC - set for an NC solenoid, unset for an NO solenoid
Checked

And lastly, how do I know if I have a Normally Closed vs. Normally Opened solenoid?

Thanks!!

 

The CCP system captures fumes from the gas tank and stores them. These fumes are then entered into the engine and burned. Thereby causing lower volatile HC emissions.

The best part of a CCP system is that the garage doesn't fill with gasoline fumes. The car doesn't reek of fumes, and the fuel mileage is slightly better.

So that the added fumes or air doesn't affect the fuel trims.

The emissions devices (EGR , AIR, and CCP ) are disabled in the supplied BINs. This is done as they need to be for VE Learns, and a lot of EBL systems end up in vehicles that didn't have them from the factory.

Key-off, engine-off, the port on the solenoid that goes to the TB, see if you can blow through it. If so then it is normally open (NO). If you can't then the solenoid is normally closed (NC).

I've seen both types used in f-body's.

Note that on boosted apps a check valve should be placed in line of the hose that goes from the solenoid to the TB. This is to prevent boost from entering the canister. GM also used check valves on the line that goes to the EGR solenoid and the HVAC vacuum system.

Part #: 14047619

RBob.

 

Hey guys, so I had a couple questions about my Kpa readings and my ve table. For starts this is a XFI280 cam in a 406ci motor with Performer RPM heads, FIRST intake, and Dyno Don headers.

So here is a picture of a datalog I took today, it shows that I reached 100-103Kpa at just around half throttle.



Now here is my VE Tables.





My high speed isnt really anywhere close to being where it needs to be as I am running pretty rich above 2000rpm's.

Is this normal for a big cam. Whats up with that 100+kpa reading well below WOT?

 

I see you are in PE at 44% TPS. seems a bit too soon. You are running a bit rich even in AE. Maybe that is OK is engine runs well. I see you are not in closed loop?

Yes 101 MAP seems a bit odd at 49% TPS w/o boost. MAP is a 0-5V devise seems like you could test it easily enough. Mine failed at 120K miles and 27 years of use.

 

The only ways I can think this is possible are:
Boosted. Turbo or super. ?
One really big honkin' behemoth of an intake. So big, the engine would likely stall at anything except idle.
Bad MAP sensor or wiring to it. ( or wrong MAP sensor )

At 1200 feet above sea level, I never see anything above 98 kPa. Key on, engine stopped.

 

Its not that weird, with the 78mm throttle body on my Express van I see 100 KPA by 30-35% TPS at lower rpms.

 

The car runs ok. Not great by any means. And I am running a open loop tune. I might raise the PE tps % enable. Where do you recommend it be at? Maybe with the large LS Style throttle body has a part in it similar to the above case?

 

I think the size of the TB contributes to the high map values that Fast355 is seeing. Possibly same with you. I will have to look at my analysis to see if I too get those large map(s) with my 7.4LTB/350cid. Maybe I never took notice.

Setting the TPS for PE to a higher value will save on gas. I recall the truck .bins have it set >70%. Idealy you would like to see the AE time out and then the PE begin right after. Lower filter values will prolong the AE event.

 

When running in open loop (no closed loop used), there is no need for PE mode. Set the open loop AFR to taper into the desired AFR at 100 KPa.

Move any PE SA into the main SA tables.

RBob.

 

Would not that area of VE table at 95-100 map also need to be "learned in" or a reasonable guesstimate made if not learned in? Analysis should show the WB A/F just before PE is lit helping in the guesstimate...

Is not VE table used in the calc of PE in OL or CL for that matter?

 

The VE table needs to be correct whether PE mode is used or not. It also has to be correct if running open or closed loop. The VE table is always in use.

RBob.

 

Well I have taken and got rid of PE mode in the tune. Have done a good amount of VE Learns today. Was a nice day and think I made good progess. I drove about 50 miles stopping occasionally to flash in a learn that got a lot of hits. I feel like the car is running much smoother now on take off. It does still have some jerkiness to it if I am just barely on the gas. I think this is related to the condition below.

It seems to have a very lean condition, as if AE isn't getting activated, if I go to shift and when I am letting the clutch back out if I barely ease into the gas. Or if I am going through town somewhat slow and just barely have my foot on the gas. That situation has gotten a lot better with the VE learns today.

Driving home from work tonight after work it was excessively rich. Temps are in the 30's and it sat from 5pm till 1030pm. Didnt have my laptop with me to datalog it.

I will say that I can definitely tell PE mode is gone. Couldn't rev much over 3000 rpms at all at first without it falling on its face from going lean.

 

One thing that really helped me out in smoothing the engine out; was after doing VE learns look at the table in the graph and smooth out the low and high points. I did this to many tables and made it run a lot smoother for me.

 

One thing that really helped me in smoothing the engine out; was after doing VE learns look at the table in the graph and smooth out the low and high points. I did this to many tables and made it run a lot smoother for me.

 

I usually do that once I get to a desktop. My laptop is a super old one that only has Windows 2000 on it. So I have to use Tunerpro 4 on it and I cant rotate the graphs around to be able to see them to smooth easily. Been looking for a new one.

To add to my questions about my VE learns...take a look at my current table.



Is it common to have those "waves" or "humps" with a motor like mine? The car seems to have more power and not have as much lean spots compared to when I flatten it out. Those are all learned in again after I flatten it. Keep in mind I cruise and idle around 70kpa. So rarely see much below 50 or 40 unless I am engine braking a lot.

I also want to add, is it common for the aePW ms to always show 0.0 in a datalog even when AE is "active" with a Y? Even in my dump logs its always a 0

 

Looks like a table that has been learned. I generally smoothen it a bit to remove peaks/valleys. I used to obsess the Ve tables. Now I accept them satisfactory after smoothening.

I dont understand why AE is a zero however. Are you seeing asynch as a zero? that is what I see as asynch is disabled in my tune.

 

If I smooth it out enough to remove the valleys then it goes rich in the spots where it is low and I raised it. And lean in the high spots that I lower. Then the next learn they return. I understand the obsessing over it, that's why I decided to ask. I've been going back and forth for over a week with those valleys. I'm just going to smooth the rough edges to where it is more curvaceous then let it continue learning what it wants and see what it brings.

On the AE part, if you go up to my post with the three pictures and look at the data analysis it is the far right row. I've never seen anything but 0.0, and its been 2 almost 3 years of having this EBL.

 

I looked at it. You are in fact enrichening. I think RBob may suggest you reinstall WU...

 

Thanks for the info Robb.... been busy with work lately on 6-12's and hour commute each way ... I'll try doing what u suggested and get back with y'all... and thanks for the compliment .. not too shabby for a little 305 eeeh ? Which as u can tell there's still a lot left in the tune ... its gonna b up in the 60-70's here in a few days so ilk be driving it to work while logging and trying to get the tune nailed down a little better . . Also I have a problem with the N/V ratios ... the ebl reads the right MPH according to GPS and the little radar things in town .. but it reads a gear higher than the gear I'm actually in .. like if I'm in 3rd it says 4th ... 4th reads 5th etc... same for 1-4th then 5th reads 5th cause it can't read 6th

 

I will send him a email requesting the download file. I am almost certain that I lost the cd. Been a while since I have needed/installed it on my machines.

I also will try to get a datalog from my current tune to see if anyone has more suggestions. It does seem to run better after the changes I made already with PE mode being removed, SA tables, and AE changes.

 

"When running port injection the aePW doesn't show dTPS AE.
Only dMAP AE, which is minimal to none.

For dTPS AE look a the aPW data. Due to the once per revolution
injection of MPFI, dTPS AE is added via async injection. Otherwise
there are lean stumbles."

This is what Bob told me in the email about the aePW.

 

I would say, based on my Buick 455 Wildcat with TBI and ignition, also running an EBL, it's likely not so unusual. These after about a year of tweeking, smoothing, learning.

 

That really comforts me in what I see with my tables. After reading the intro to tuning on the website numerous times and seeing that really smooth graph they use for an example, I had always thought that was my goal. Well that changed as soon as this cam was installed.

I just want to say thank you to everyone for the help so far. Without this site and Bobs massive amount of time/energy in the EBL systems and tuning I wouldn't even have a running car most likely.

As I said, I will get a new datalog as soon as I actually drive the car farther then my .5 mile drive to work or short drives around town to my other job. I took notes of how it was reacting today at lunch, even though it wasn't warmed up completely. Currently making small changes now to some things.

One quick question before I forget. In the AE-TPS PW table, the dTPS% of 0 has a available uSec column. Is this used to interpolate between it and the next row of dTPS% of 3.1? If so I think I need to raise it. After going over a dump log from the other day, I appear to have a lean condition when starting to roll from a stop. dTPS% of less then 2. Would I need to adjust the filter to bring in the ae TPS sooner?

 

I would think it is for interpolation.

There is also TF fuel that could be increased. But it may waste gas.

I decreased the AE filter value for both TPS andMAP that brought in fuel faster. Helped in off throttle acceleration at slow speeds(manual trans). I am OL at that speed so I also added to VE table at lower rpms and increasing map during event.

 

That meets one of my instances where I though my AE needed help was with off throttle acceleration and generally just shifting. If I watch my WB during a shift I see it drop to rich right after throttle lift/clutch engage and then rise to lean as I ease into throttle/disengage clutch and then it evens even out. So I view that as my DE isn't leaning it out as much as it could use, and then my AE isn't rich enough. I haven't touched DE very much, as I would it rather go rich right after a throttle lift/clutch engage. I will lower my filter percents 5 more % and see what happens. I had lowered the MAP by 10% and TPS by 5% last night. We will see how it goes.

 

That throttle closing increases vacuum pulling the wetness off intake runners and subsequent lean results.

the TFAE i refered to is to combat enleanment with IAC opening.Yes that filter should help out. Coming in earlier and lasting longer. Result is more AE fuel for that event.

 

Did you mean to have rich in what I have in red? Trying to follow along with what you mean. So at throttle close, vacuum is increased (lower MAP kPa) and fuel is pulled from the runners causing a momentary rich condition followed immediately by a lean condition due to runners "soaking" up some of the fuel that follows after the vacuum increase?

So in the case of a shift (manual) the above occurs but right after the fuel is pulled the throttle is opened again. So even more fuel is needed in the AE event to compensate for the fuel that gets "soaked". Now with this being a TPI intake this pulling/soaking is somewhat minimal when compared to a wet intake. So adjustments are to be small right?

 

I keep forgetting you are TPI so not a wet system. It may in fact be DE so possibly can get that delayed by higher MPH before it occurs. I think mine is set to 40mph. Not sure if the onset of high vac will affect it much. Maybe so? Does DE light up in WU when you see lean? Yes small adjustments but I have never tuned TPI/Port fuel.

 

I'm going to go for a drive right now and I should get up to temp. I will datalog and get back to you on that. Thanks for the help so far Ronny.

 

i might be mistaken here, but isn't there a little bathtub effect curve/valley (inj offsets) from around 400rpm/70map to 2000/45? just wondering..