With closed loop the fueling will be more accurate and generally leaner then in open loop. The lean cruise mode which is open loop doesn't count, as it is specifically set up for mileage.

And running closed loop with the lean cruise mode is better then running open loop with the lean cruise mode. While in closed loop the ECM will adjust the BLM for better AFR accuracy when the ECM goes into lean cruise mode.

RBob.

 

My money is on a vacuum leak. This is why the IAC is so low and the engine has a tendency to stall. There is no way a cold engine should idle with 0 or even 5 or 10 IAC steps.

Correct, the two I listed is only for trip calculations. Once the tune is closer can tweak this one in for accuracy of fuel consumption (the WUD uses it):

INJ - MPG Injector Flow Constant

With the stock fuel pressure (13 psi) and the 55 #/hr injectors, the BPC table should be 151.

This is why the VE Learn is adding a lot of fuel. Best bet is to start over with the 65 #/hr injectors installed and the BPC table set correctly (128).

RBob.

 

Yes i agree, but like you said its either a Vacuum leak, or the throttle blades are staying open, They are, when i got home yesterday i kept the motor running idle was at 800rpm. Popped hood and went to throttle cable, gave it a little gas and then let it come back down to idle and pushed inward on the throttle ( opposite of throttle linkage) and idle dropped down to 600rpm. Im gonna rip off the TB and service is as best as i can and drop the injectors in. Should i continue tuning on my latest BIN? or start over from scratch at BIN_2017??


UPDATE: ok i believe i actually had 61 #/Hr injectors installed. Years ago before i initially installed my first ebl unit (late 2011) i bought a so called 'rebuilt' 350 throttle body with 350 fuel injector pod. Well when i threw it on i didnt feel much of a difference.... so i figured it was just a 305 Throttle body and i got jipped. But when i changed my BPC-BPC VS VAC table to 151, all my VE learns went CRAZY with negatives!! My ve high speed & low speed look really messed up now, i think i have 61 #/HR in..... and its still running really lean???? I guess i need lots of more fuel. Anyone adjusted the stock FPR? im thinking of trying it with the 65 #/HR injector pod before i throw it in to get the most out of it BUT i dont have a FP gauge.

Heres the link for stock FPR adjustments..... http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/s...293#post298293

 

I adjusted my stock FPR but imho if you're working without a fuel pressure gauge you're completely lost. Same goes for the injectors. It takes less than 5 minutes to take the air cleaner of and look up the RPD part numbers that are on the injectors.

Vac leak, i also thought about that. The IAC will typically try to regulate high idle speed by limiting idle airflow, but once the idle passage is fully closed (0 IAC steps), it has reached its control limits and there's gotta be a bigger leak somewhere that is allowing too much airflow past the throttle blades. The airflow from that leak is a "static offset", if you will.
edit - just read your last post on the vac leak/blades. if the idle dropped by messing with the throttle shaft, it likely would be worn shaft bushings or sticking throttle or the like?

 

Yeah im just going to leave it untouched. I know for a fact the new injectors im putting on today are infact 65 #/hr, the ones on my vehicle right now i cannot read the RPD# because they are too faded.

Ding ding ding, its gotta be one of the latter. Im hoping its a sticky throttle that i can fix with some Throttle body cleaner. Will update later tonight with results.

Ive went ahead and decided im going to start over at BIN_2017. Ive copied over 350 SA Main&extended tables from BIN_2020, i didnt have to copy any other SA tables over as BIN_2020&2017 were identical. Pulled the timing light out last night and took down Initial Dizzy timing. Shes at 2*, in relation i put Initial SA to 2* so that everything is correct, and set my BPC-BPC VS VAC to 128 for my 65#/HR at 13psi (350ci). Im hoping things come out well!!!!

Ive been reading alot on AE when changing injector flow, and im really interested! But i know thats a little more advanced so im just going to get my starter tune setup before i dig any deeper.

 

Ok im really confused. Cleaned my TB up, wasnt sticking. Put new Injectors on with restarted at BIN_2017. And all the new VE learns went crazy in the negatives?????? BLM was always under the int at like 112 or 115. After 4-5 VE Learns my VE tables are worse than before??? Im confused.

I attached a datalog from my whole 45MIN run of 5 learns. If your going to view or playback go to about half way or so and find the hard pulls i did and check them out. Im confused at to what is going on.... I figured that this 350 with this mild cam and intake/heads ect should be able to take 65 #/Hr????? Some one school me please.





http://www.sendspace.com/file/b8r7lf

Just reviewing my datalog in playback. At 85% through i did a pull from dead stop.Interesting stuff... What should the DC be at full throttle?

 

No higher than 85% anywhere in the pull. I prefer to stay in the 75-80% range as a maximum though. Just in case a cold engine, high barometric pressure, etc cause the injectors to open longer than usual.

You need to look at the areas the VE learn change and do some hand smoothing of the VE tabels in areas that did not get learned.

 

on all my pulls when i got up to about 3500rpm it was at 85% DC. i think highest i seen was 91% DC at 4000 rpm (2nd gear). What does that mean?

So do those VE tables look ok then? im just confused because its all over the place, i just wasnt sure if i was having another problem or what the hell was going on. When i first did my VE learns ( pics of my last VE Learns on last page) my VE Low speed looks pretty decent, nothing like this crazy thing with all the jagged points ect. Im not sure??? I throw the 65 #/HR on and all the VE learns go super negatives. With 55 #/HR they were adding fuel like crazy. Do negatives not mean a bad thing? I just had the thought that negatives on the ve learns are reducing fuel hence power hence bad? some one school me please. Going to go do some more tuning right now. see what i can find.

by the way Rbob, IAC Counts are at 115 ignition on, engine off. But when i start the motor it can barley stay alive and i have to put my foot on the gas and by that time IAC is already dropping because i have throttle slightly open. I've had this cold start problem since i installed this Throttle body and i believe the IAC came with it. Could this be a bad IAC?

Screen shot showing my DC.



starting to get weirder!!!! Car offically stalled while fully warmed up at 195F. Was warmed up after first cold start in park. Idle seemed to continue to change like there was a vac leak of some sort. Threw it in reverse, idle dropped to 560, started hesitating and stalled. Started right up and got it out of the drive way and into gear and no problems after but....... Somethings going on.... None of this happened on the stock ECM???? It did have its rough cold start, but it NEVER stalled. I think i have some sort of Vac leak some where im not sure. OR maybe these injectors/pod i pulled from pick n pull is bad?

 

Yep !
Basically measure the spring, then shim or change as needed.
There is an adjust screw on the stock FPR, but I found it's total range to be about 2 lbs.

I was targeting 25 pounds as I recall, and got 24 with a spring change and a shim, so called it good, from a stock FPR, which measured about 11 originally.
I found my stock pump good for 16 max, at which point its internal bypass opens, so I added an old Ford booster pump. I forget what it's good for, 60 or so I guess.
My only concern was ( and remains ) at what pressure the stock diaphragm would rupture.

You can add an aftermarket regulator in the return line, and ignore the stock regulator in place if you like, but if you do that keep in mind that the stock regulator will still set the minimum pressure, and the aftermarket the max. ( which could be useful, I suppose )
This *will* strain the stock diaphragm though, as it goes full open and may stretch while trying to regulate a lower pressure, even with a stop screw.
Do consider a block plate to prevent a diaphragm failure, and attendant gasoline "spillage."

 

Is the AC Delco 213-1520 still the recommended 2-bar MAP sensor upgrade?

 

Yes it is, don't forget to set the 2-bar MAP option flag.

RBob.

 

OK I have a problem ... dome stuff got deleted off my laptop .... and I'm wondering if there is any way to yskr the bin that is in the ecm and put it back on the computer ? .... and what the heck is this read bin thing on the flash display ? It font do anything out I'm not doing something right .... OK enuf tx n drive thx

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

Accidentally (lack of experience) with a TPI pump I had my spring coil bound with shim and it ruptured the stock GM gasket. Twice one being a new stock replacement. I think that was 60 lbs FP. But I did not have a FP gauge back then. Fortunately engine was cold.

 

On the Flash display click the Read Bank button. Click the Select BIN button, navigate to the folder where you want the BIN placed and type in a filename for the BIN. Click Open.

Click the button for the bank that you want to read in the Flash Bank box.

Key-on, engine-off and click Apply...

RBob.

 

Thanx a lot !

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

The only way VE learns will be doing negatives is if there is too much fuel correct?

 

For the most part... In closed loop BLM mode the VE Learn follows the BLM value(s).

In open loop using the WB mode the VE Learn follows the difference between the commanded AFR and the WB reported AFR.

RBob.

 

I'm trying to narrow down what the hell is going on with my car. Here are somethings I noticed maybe some one can chime in

A. After swapping to the 65 #/hr injector pod and changing BPC-BPC VS VAC to 128 the following happened
1. Cold start idle is MUCH more radical, won't stay alive for more than 5 seconds without foot of gas. Rpm jumps from 1800rpm down to 600 and will die (verified via WUD playback on a very slow speed you see rpm jump around) car is still fine once warmed up.
2. VE Learns went crazy into negatives- for about 10 ve learns it was negating out across the board, last 5 learns have been a lot 0's with still some negative -5 or -4 in certain areas and some positives in other areas. This has caused my ve tables to look like Crap. Low rpm looks crazy spikey in areas.
3. The car feels SLOWER than stock. With the stock ecm if I went over 65% throttle from a dead stop the tires(tire lol) would break loose and roast for a second. But the car would feely boggy the rest of the rpm band , it felt like it was running really lean above 2400rpm. Now I never attempted a dead pull that hard with my original injectors/pod and ebl flash, but as I was tuning I had to give some throttle to hold the gears and it felt GREAT. That boggyness was completely gone and it felt really well on the pulls I was doing at a 15-20mph roll. I know for a fact it ran a lot better than stock with my ve learns on original injector pod. Now with this tune( in process) and injectors, she's flat on her face till about 2100rpm and even then it feels awkward like my stock ecm but worse!!!! No low end torque at all. Probably because of my jacked up ve tables. I'm guessing the injectors are bad? But.........

B. Car now wants to stall when immediately thrown into gear. GEAR ONLY. It's like once it goes under load it cant hold itself up. Car will be at operating temp 190* idling in park at 900rpm. I drop in gear and rpms drop to 625-650, if I don't move and keep my foot planted on brake it will idle at 650 for 3 seconds or so and then get rougher and drop to about 550 and then it will die. If I take my foot off the brake and give a tiny bit of gas she will stay alive.Starts back up fine no problems but I can easily repeat this process. Doesn't happen everytime. car drives with no problems.

Wtf is going on? Ve learns show too much fuel so it's reducing fuel, yet radical cold start and stalling during when thrown into gear? It would NEVER stall unless engine was super cold not warmed up. It's dieing fully warm.

If your curious about my ve's with original injectors check last page I uploaded them there .They don't look bad at all and the car had guts, now it doesn't. Now check out my 65#/hr ve tables above. They look insane. I want to say the injector pod is bad but im confused at the stalling. And if they were not giving the correct amount of fuel, why was ve learns negating?

Thanks guys for your time and advice. I Really appreciate it.

 

Have you looked at the injectors with the engine idling? The o-rings or the injectors themselves may be leaking. Is there a vacuum leak, that too will causes issues.

As for further troubleshooting I would need to be there with the car. The last guy that gave up on an EBL had four completely oil fouled spark plugs.

Have you looked at a log file for the stalling when being placed into gear? What is happening, IAC, AFR, spark advance and so on.

RBob.

 

Oh woah no way im no-where close to giving up on anything. Ive had the unit for a week! Will do, will they actually have a driplet while running or something? Basically i need to look for the spray cone correct?

Im really starting to lean on a vac leak because its much more radical at start( hence the denser thicker air making it worse) , but i honestly dont know where to look. Ive checked all my vac lines they all look good. I checked my EGR to see if its functioning and its good, pulled the line off the egr while running and plugged it and it ran the same.Could a vac line running off the TB really cause that much of a problem?Could runners on the intake start leaking for no reason? i just changed the TB gasket so it cant be that.

Im going to do that next, im going to datalog and let it stall a couple times so i can view whats going on.

Ive been reading a couple things about running the stock Torque Converter with a built engine, and causing stalls when put in gear.... Also been reading about bad distributors causing all kinds of crazy idle problems. I made a (idiot) custom grill for my power bulge when i was younger with "holes to breath" and water leaks in when it rains here ( average 10inches of rain annually)...... The car has been sitting for about 2 years. I suspect my dizzy has some water damage..... debating on pulling the cap off to take a look and see if i see anything weird

You actually now have me thinking about my spark plugs.... They havent been changed since the motor was put in, although that was only about 30,000 miles ago or so.

 

By the way, is open loop tuning only for WB or can you tune in open loop with a NB as well?

Are you still recommending the AC-Delco NB as a replacement/upgrade? Do you happen to know the p/n#

 

[QUOTE=Ghettobird52;5737525]By the way, is open loop tuning only for WB or can you tune in open loop with a NB as well?

Are you still recommending the AC-Delco NB as a replacement/upgrade? Do you happen to know the p/n#[/QUOT
I would like to know answer to

 

ghettobird 52 where did you mount your wideband sensor i mounted minds in my xpipe

 

unfortunately i dont have a wideband yet Its Looking like i have other things to get straight before buying a WB though
that sounds like a good spot, if your running a cat(s) make sure its before them.

 

no cats for me how long have you been working on your project i was having same issues as you when i started my project

 

You should check them while tuning. They are the eyes into the combustion chamber. Use the standard $1.69 plugs of choice. I prefer Autolite, although NGK is just as good (maybe better, but they cost more).

RBob.

 

Autolites all the way !!! Lol .... can someone post a pic of a hot SA table graph for aluminum heads ? So I kinda know what the curve should look like ? Thanks !

Right now I'm at around 26* in the 90-100kpa areas n my dad is saying it should b like 34-36 at wot from around 2800- 3000 up ...

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

it depends a lot on the heads used, runner/chamber shape etc. more efficient heads will use less timing because the mixture burns faster and more homogenously and therefore need less advance.

 

Not sure of your cam specs, but being that the LT4 had a larger cam than the LT1, I would recommend searching for a screen shot of an LT4 Spark Advance table, although Bob more than likely has one...

 

214/218@ .050 268/270adv. .488/.495 lift on 114lsa plus I run 1.6rr

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

WOT spark advance is tricky. It is best done via either a dyno, or real world acceleration testing. Take a look at the SA table from the included 5.4l BIN (EBL_F_3001).

Now, what is interesting about those SA tables (Main, Extended and PE vs Gear), is that they can be too high for the '113 heads (aluminum D-port y-body heads).

Those tables were set up for best performance. At that time there was a 048 AC Delco ICM in the distributor. Which I later found to retard the SA quite a bit as the RPM increased. However, the at crank timing was correct for that set up, and the performance proved it.

I later switched to a 396 (369?) ICM and the engine performance fell off. The engine got rough, no detonation, just rough. In later testing was when I found out about the latency built into the ICMs.

The 396 ICM had lower latency then the 048 module, so suddenly the engine was getting more SA then previously. In the end I changed the SA latency table to the proper values for that module and pulled about 8* of SA at WOT from the tables.

The performance returned....

RBob.

P.S. the latency thread is here in this forum, started by liquidH8. A quick search will bring it up.

 

Wow ! ... u r a genius .. jus sayin ... I would never think the ICM would make that much difference ... and while on the subject ... do these stock acdelco icm's handle higher rpm's OK ? Like 6k ? Or is an aftermarket piece needed ? Or do the aftermarket units even make any difference ? Like accel for example

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

That's interesting to read... I'll have to check mine, I bought the distributor off eBay because I swapped in from a 4.3 v6, and the ad said something about an F-Body.

 

I only use AC delco ICMs, with a small cap distributor 6 - 7K RPM is no problem.

I also have a Holley ICM that I tested, both on the bench and for latency. The latency was OK, IIRC, it matched the 369 module. However, the current limit on the coil current is much lower then a GM ICM.

RBob.

 

I like the DUI module, the latency closely matches the 369 and the spark energy (joules) when combined with their coil is much greater than stock. I was running .055" plug gaps and mixtures as lean as 17.0 without misfire.

 

The timing maps are almost identical between a Y-car LT1 and LT4. Some places may have had a 1-2* difference, that is about it. Keep in mind the LT4 had a larger cam, but it also had a higher static compression ratio. Both were very near what I would consider the highest DCR you can run on premium pump gas.

 

UPDATE: issue with stalling in gear was officially declared on the pulled injector/fpr i swapped on. I threw back on my original injector pod (injectors and FPR) and issue went away. Cold start felt fine, but could be because i cleaned up my Throttle body really well. did a quick VE learn and getting alot of positives Guess i cant be cheap with pick n pull and gotta by some new injectors.

Will update on my spark plugs.

EDIT:

Rbob i've been reading alot and seeing that you suggest to change a couple other tables when using different flow rated injectors. Because i started out with BIN_2017 (88-92 F-body TBI 5.0 700r4) and im 99% sure im using 61 #/HR injectors which tables should i adjust? i think i seen old injector divided by new injector so 55/61=0.901?

 

It is these three tables:

AE - MAP PW
AE - TPS PW
PRP - Gain vs O2 Error

It is done to rough in the fueling for those functions.

RBob.

 

Help! Stupid vats won't let me crank my car n I'm half way to Tennessee ! Jus stopped at a gas station for a min come out n nothing wtf !

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

Come to think of it ... this never happened until I got this ebl flash had ebl for year and a half and its happened twice

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

Thanks! Does my math look correct? multiple the whole tables by 0.901?

 

VATs preventing the car from cranking has nothing to do with the EBL Flash system. Most likely the key or the contacts in the ignition cylinder are dirty. It may also be that the wires exiting the lock cylinder are breaking.

Can easily bypass the starter cutout relay.

RBob.

 

Yes.

RBob.

 

I think that AE adjustment helped my VE Learns. i just adjusted those three tables by multiplying .901 , that adjusted them down a little. I had to run to the store real quick so i decided to take the bird with the new adjustments. Did a VE learn and im seeing more positives across the rpm band. its looking good. Glad to know my problems were from those damn injectors/FPR i slapped on.

 

my current ride its undergoing a turbo install, its going to be 80mm bg s480, with the 7730 ecm and the ebl flash 4 upgrade.
is this capable of handling about 800-900hp or is the ecm going to be struggling to keep up?
do I need a aftermarket ecm, like bs3, holly etc to handle this kind of hp?
last question what 3-bar map sensor to use with the ebl set up?
thanks

 

Idk about hp limit but fuel tables are full resolution to 8k ... sa is full resolution to 6500 and ebl can support 30 psi boost .. so I'd say ur good to go

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

ECM and HP have nearly zero correlation as long as it can be adjusted for the application. I would be more worried about the injectors, fuel system, drivetrain, full cage, racing seats, 6 point harnesses, driveshaft loop, bellhousing scatter shield, and other components to keep you safe.

 

perfect, bringing ICM latency up again got me worried about the DUI modules.. sounds good there

 

Standard 3-bar:

3-bar MAP sensor (AC-Delco #213-1562) = 12223861 (formerly 16040749, AC-Delco #213-101)
pigtail harness for 3-bar MAP sensor (AC-Delco #PT1035) = 15305891

Be sure to set the 3-bar option flag in the EBL calibration file once installed.

The stock connector can be modified to use with the 3-bar MAP. The keying is different, can cut new key slots in the connector and it plugs right in. Can also snap the keys off in the sensor for the same affect.

RBob.

 

Might as well post this here as opposed to a PM so everyone can learn from it. Bob, thinking about stepping it up to either a FAST 5 wideband, or NGK XFI Wideband sensor, because I need the sensor mounted as close to the turbo as possible without failing on me, and my current bosch wideband sensor that autometer uses isn't up to the task. It already went bad on me believe it or not and I just bought the damn thing, and now it's constantly reading default/stoich. Reason being now is I am more than likely not going to run a full exhaust anymore, will be dumping the exhaust out the front fender like Kaminski did. Will the EBL-P4 work with a FAST wideband sensor, and if not, will the TT-1 wideband handle being closer to the turbo like I need, or any other sensor for that matter...?

- Rob