In this regard I think the best unit to go with is the NGK AFX with the NTK sensor. The NTK sensors are more robust to heat. Cost more, but can be worth it.

There are also ways to make heat sinks that help in this regard. A flat copper sheet that is placed between the mounting bung and the sensor.

Whatever is done, a WB sensor has to be post turbo, they are very sensitive to exhaust back pressure.

The TT-1 WB uses a Bosch sensor, and should not be placed close to the exhaust ports.

RBob.

 

Oh no no, I definitely run both the NB and WB sensors after the turbo in the dowpipe, but the Bosch WB sensors need to be put back at least three feet from the turbo. I had mine at about a foot and a half, and it went bad after a few weeks. Some of the GN guys had told me about the FAST sensors, and how they can take the heat no problem. Will look up the sensors you recommended above, they might just do the trick. Will see you at Kirbans if you go...

- Rob

 

Using the TT-1, I have the sensor way down the pipe. Then a NB 3-wire (AFS-74) in the downpipe about a foot from the turbo. This works out well.

Placed the NB there as the stock location has an EGT probe in it. And keeping it close to the engine reduces transport delay. I plan on being there...

I mentioned the back pressure on a WB as an overall thing for others that read this thread.

RBob.

 

Some more questions on this if I may:
With the sensor way down the pipe, wouldn't that badly increasy transport delay, or was that referring to the EGT?

I wasn't aware the WBO2 sensors are more sensitive to exhaust backpressure.. interesting.

Also, I found that some recent cars are using WBO2 sensors that are only an inch or so after the turbo. I wonder how they do with reliability?
Hmm, that one i looked at more closely was an NTK WBO2 tho.. I know that because it had crapped out and had to be replaced haha!

The heat sinks as mentioned can be fabricated according to innovate instructions: (page 6)
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/s...LM1_Manual.pdf

One more Q: is there any compatibility between the various WB systems and the sensors? Like NTK, FAST, Bosch LSU sensors..

 

It does, but the WB is only being used for tuning. Not feedback to the ECM. The NB should be closer as the ECM is waiting for it's signal to change (closed loop).

Some systems use the same sensor. For the most part the sensor is what defines which system works with it. There is very little cross-compatibility between sensors.

RBob.

 

Yes, EGT's are a killer. Bosch sensors go down more at the track from being too close than your average Shockwave application lol. Mine crapped out rather quickly as I had it located near the transmission bell housing, which is about maybe 1 1/2 to 2 feet away from the turbo, thought it would be alright. Normally it should be just ahead of the catalytic converter, around three feet or so (three feet in my application, anyway). My NB is right behind the turbo, not directly behind it, but about a foot and a half away from it (see pic below), and it's fine. Not quite sure what craps out with the WB Bosch sensors from being too close, as they do make a "casing" for it that you would screw the WB in first, then the casing into the downpipe. My buddy Paul has one of those casings that I am more than likely going to have to try, but it would have just been easier to just get a WB that can withstand the heat. In my case the DP will be dumping out of the fender, no more full exhaust, that is why I need the WB close to the turbo, otherwise it wouldn't even matter...

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps0ab25668.jpg

 

Woah... RBob has eluded a little to what he's running himself

I'm a little curious... what about a dual exhaust setup with an x-pipe? I have a '78 Malibu I'm thinking of an EBL for down the road, and right now it has longtubes and a Pypes system with an x-pipe. Does the EBL learn off more than 1 O2 sensor? I'm thinking the collector area is probably a usable location for a pair of sensors.

 

Doober, FWIW, I had tossed that around when I first did my EBL (classic) in the wagon. I had a bung in each header. I ran a NB in one side, and the WB in other. After I got the tune, I swapped sides for hahas and didn't see any change needed for the tune. This was a just rebuilt engine by the way, with a highrise GMPP vortec intake, and the n20 plate. So I did have some open plenum under the TB.

 

You could do what I did years ago and install a switch to allow you to read from sensor 1 or sensor 2.....I also found very little difference with flow matched injectors.

 

Okay I have a new problem

Just swapped out fuel injectors to 60lb injectors, running a TPI with EBL P4. It ran before the swap. Now I went to start the car after the swap and the WUD ran an error that said ~"your are using the wrong WUD software for SFI-6" I though that was weird and then noted that the WUD sated MPFI 4, 3 bar, and thought I was doing like 150mph and all sorts of other crazy stuff. Needless to say the car wont start. I did check my file and there is nothing i can find wrong with it shows v8 with two bar, flash to EBL P4 verifies and when I read from the P4 and save it as a new file and open it I find it is the same file I had flashed. For the first time I am ready to push the car off a cliff; please help.

FYI the injector swap also included the fpr and a few other things like vacuum lines etc but I am so low on time the car was disassembled for 6 months I mention this because I thought there might be some volatile memory and a dead battery on the ECU that i wasn't aware of but couldn't find any.

Thanks all

 

The SFI-6 thing sounds very strange to me. Are you sure you are using the correct injectors? saturated vs. PnH (low vs. high impedance (Z)).. http://dynamicefi.com/InjectorDriving.php
Otherwise, maybe a software, hardware or communication fault. I would rule out the injectors if the are the right type and the wiring is ok. Simply because of that SFI-6 thing. Maybe try reinstalling (the correct -> P4 version) WUD..

Waiting for RBob to chime in and save the day here

 

True, I wouldn't suspect much different if they were flow matched... right near the X junction sounds like a good idea, but it's getting kind of out there far as distance from the engine goes (even though it would be heated).

 

Any chance you removed an ECM ground and did not reattach it?

 

excuse me but why in the world would you add a second sensor just to read the same thing at the same position?

 

You're excused
I kid of course... my original thought was right at the header collector was why I originally said 2. The x-pipe junction is back near the output shaft of the transmission, probably another 24-30" of pipe? I don't know how picky heated O2 sensors are for readings, but last I read, an unheated one is best right up near the head, to keep it hot... but since a heated sensor is its own source, it's kinda hard to judge. The exhaust is a longtube setup, no cats, and dual 2½" stainless exhaust.

 

As Rbob pointed out just a few posts back the NBO2 should be close to the engine:
Still not sure why you would put 2 sensors at the same location unless you needed a redundant system or had to be very accurate as to measure with two sensors (with different built-in tolerances) and build an average.
If we had a way to offset fueling bank-to-bank, well that would be a different story with a sensor for each bank.

 

As I may have stated, my heated 02(Delco) is about 3 inch behind collector flange and no issues. Reads just fine and consistent. I was on Xway today cruising at 65 and I could see the highway mode coming in and out on WB(Bosch). WB02 about 24 inch behind collector flange in opposite pipe. true duals. I believe the code turns it off - on in 30 sec or so intervals.

 

Yes, I remember seeing the in/out time for hwy mode... I think default is lean cruise for 240s, then normal for 30s or something like that, I'm guessing that's to help keep chamber temps from getting too high in case they're too lean.

I haven't put a nb back in lately because I've been trying to get the stupid thing tuned... only found out after the fact I'm going to have to go through and redo it all anyway since I had a pretty substantial leak at the TBI/carb adapter. I plan on getting another NB, just not til I have the tune all sorted out.

 

hi rbob I been tunning my car lately and its been going good just having a hard time trying to fire it when cold, needs more fuel I think when cold.
is there a enrichment mode ve for when the motor is cold?
it strats great once warm...
383 tpi , hsr and tfs g1 heads 30lb inj.
thanks.

 

I'm not really sure how they work but check out the choke tables.. I think a larger value is richer mabey? ... I copied them over from the modified 327sbc bin and they seem to work well for me ... only thing now is it kinda stutters when cold if u try to give it more than about 1/4 throttle during accel ... bit that's only for prolly first 10 min on a completely cold engine so no big deal really ..

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

If I was you....... ( but I'm not )
I see no good reason you can't stand the sensor off a bit.
Screw a nipple into the bung, and the sensor into the nipple, so that the exhaust flows past, and not directly onto, the sensor element.

I haven't done it, but looking at a variety of combustion analyzer sensor probes, it would seem that it should work, and keep the sensor out of the "torch flame" directly.

 

thanks I changed the choke afr by 7% and it worked!!!
also can I used any digital autometer gauges to datalog with the ebl?

 

Have you tried changing your cts-based fueling? I found that helped a lot with mine. I don't know the terms off the top of my head, but I leaned mine out a little for when it was cold and and helped with that, because I was having the same issues... if you can find anything pe vs cts related, I might start there if it idles good.

 

I am using a sutometer fuel pressure gauge connected to ebl with a pillar gauge as well .. and the FP is in my dstalogs along with my WB02

And thanks I'll look into that doober

I have another ? ..... when I turn the key on my FP jumps up but then within about 30 seconds it falls back to zero ? Shouldn't the fuel system hold pressure ? I can't find any fuel leaks either

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

TBI and aftermarket FPRs typically leak down once the pump is turned off.

RBob.

 

I recall there is cranking fuel table for enrihment before engine starts and a choke table for after it starts. Once choke times out it runs off the open loop A/F table and the VE table is also used to calc the OL commanded A/F in table.

 

thanks..im trying to get an all out performance out the lil engine....seems to roast the drag radials more than before...working on my sa main and extended tables now, just a question why when I fill the sa main table across the board with lets say 38* from 2000rpm to 4400rpm on the wud it only actually shows 28* timing in that rpm range
the numbers on the table are actually not the timing but a percentage?
im lost...
I tried putting 60* on table and in the wud it shows actually 38*...I don't have a knock filter so no knock counts for me im doing all by ear...lol

 

The values in the main & extended SA tables are the actual SA values, not a percentage. You must have changed other SA values that is affecting the end result.

Go back through the .log files to see what else was changed.

RBob.

 

For the 38° max instead of 60°, that could be due to:
SA - Maximum SA
Maximum spark advance allowed. This value is distributor advance and is set by the physical constraints of the distributor.
Otherwise, there could an offset with the base/initial timing that you put in in the calibration (SA - Initial SA). Off top my head, I'm not quite sure if the WUD includes that in its display for SA or not..

 

I would think you need to look at the .bin and see if initial timing at engine matches what is in the .bin. Does engine run well otherwise other than at 38-42 deg? Are you seeing 38d at other than WOT? Like at low load cruise SA?

 

at idle is at 32* then after 1700 rpm I set at 38* when in 3rd and 4th locked up I retarded 4* for cruising.
performance seems ok...but have to get it to the track to actually tell.
I set the timing before installing the ebl at 6* at idle with the wire disconnected.
I believe I used the 3006.bin tpi corvette alum head.
and enriched ve by 15% and afr stays about 12.5-12.8 all thru full throttle
when cruising its still a lil lean like 15.0 to 15.5 afr

 

Does the regular EBL Flash support the dual MAP sensor setup or do we just unplug the stock 1-bar and plug in the 2-bar (and set the flag)?

 

The WUD displays the at-crankshaft timing value. Put a timing light on it and it will match up with the WUD, if not, then something is set up incorrectly.

RBob.

 

Unplug the 1-bar and plug in the 2-bar. The harness connector isn't keyed the same between them. So either need to snap off the keys inside of the MAP sensor, or cut new slots for the keys in the harness connector.

Currently the EBL SFI-6 is the only EBL system that supports dual MAP sensors. For a 2-bar MAP it really isn't needed to also run a 1-bar. When using a 3-bar MAP it does make a difference. As the 3-bar MAP resolution is much lower along with the error band being worse once below 70 KPa.

RBob.

 

There was an adapter bung like that in which came with the earlier LC1 wideband kits for closer installation of the Bosch sensors, you would screw the adapter into the O2 bung, then the wideband into the adapter. The adapter just needed to be facing the proper way. Not sure whats it's called, nor if they sell them separately. May definitely give it a shot though...

 

hi again...im looking at the ebl website and I found what most Acronyms and Abbreviations are...but im looking to see if I can find what each flag means and do and also the same thing for scalars and tables?
is there such things I know what most are but some I have no clue on.
thanks again.

 

Start->All Programs->EBL P4 Flash->Calibration Help

RBob.

 

The Innovate adapter is machined stainless steel. I dont recall a need to face it in one direction but it has been quite a while since I looked at it or directions. I do recall the the need to place it at 9 12 03 oclock so it is not resting in moisture. It does limit the placement for me as adapter adds to lenght. I recall it being like 2.5-3 inches long. OBTW it is a bit pricey!

 

hello everyone ! I really need some help with this tune...

im really starting to get discouraged with it .. and if I cant get this thing running close to what its capable of im gonna go crazy! heres a copy of my bin and 2 short wot datalogs .... please help! I will pay somebody to go thru my bin and do what needs to b done thanks !

 

I see a total lack of traction in the lower gears. With way too much SA in the higher gears.

RBob.

 

Yea no traction at all that's with 255/50/18 Continentals about 10" tread width ... but I only let em down to 40psi they call for 51 ... and what do u mean to much sa in higher gears ? The pe vs gear ?

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

So that's all u can see us too much timing ? ... I usually run a open loop tune just recently switched to closed loop to do some blm learns that I never got around to..also seems my ve tables look too wavy

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

Check the treadwear rating on the tires. If over 400 then it is a hard compound. It may also be that the tires are old, I didn't find a Continental in the size you listed.

> Yea I'm just running some all season continental used tires I paid 80$ for both backs

The PE versus Gear table is barely being used, this is due to how the calibration is set up. You have the N/V option flag set, but only gear 0 filled in.

First, zero out the entire PE vs Gear table. Then start reducing the SA in the Main & Extended tables in the 80 - 100 KPa areas (WOT). Work on the SA with 3rd & 4th gear pulls.

Get the engine to smooth out, read the plugs for detonation (no, the knock sensor doesn't always pick it up).

To fill in the PE vs Gear table will first need to find some traction. Then add some SA in the lower gears to get the car moving out. Note that the launch Mode (LM) SA can also be used, or zero'd out.

As the car goes up through the gears less SA will be required in the PE vs Gear table. Remember, a smooth engine is a fast engine.

RBob.

 

Traction AA temp A tread ware 400 even and they are 255/45/18 continental conti procontact ......

So I need to reduce my 80-90 sa in the main tables .... what about ae n pe n all that ? My AFR's were all over the place .... and I have a very good CAI what should I do with the iaT/CTS blends? Should I just use an SA table in the supplied bins ? And go from there ?

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

I really didn't do a very good burnout when I went to track so that could b some of it ... but like I said I only got 2 passes in before it rained out bit I get in free this Thursday ...rain check please !

IMA throw bout 3 gal a 110 in her n fill er up wit premium

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

Plugs look good to me ... Mabey a little knock but the only place i seen any on the ebl display is under 1500rpm low load 30-50kpa

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

I used the stock L03 IAT/CTS table and it seemed to work fine.

Please explain. I think the heads you use will determine the SA values. I am about 37d at WOT/PE. The EBL PE A/F is gear/load based. Higher load 4 gear of three the A/F for PE is less. I think I am at 13/1 at 1st gear and tapers off to 12.5 in 4th gear(manual trans).

 

Yes. The adapter itself from Innovative was essentially a solid stainless steel O2 sensor (in shape), and the only two openings were where the wideband screwed into it, and on the bottom of the adapter itself, which is just a small hole on the bottom. Not the very bottom as if facing downward, but near the bottom on the side of the unit, and that little hole on the side needed to face towards the turbine otherwise a faulty reading would occur. The top of the housing that remains out of the pipe has a small arrow that is lined up with that little hole on the bottom, this way you know which way it is facing. My friend has one, but he won't just sell the adapter without selling the whole kit...

 

So can anyone suggest a sa table I should strlart with ? I'm going back to track tomorrow night ! I need this thing to pull some decent numbers ... help !!!

Running TFS super 23 175cc heads and 214/218 cam with 10.5:1 compression

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow heads, 4.10 gears, full UMI setup, track times coming soon!

 

Adapter available from Innovate under accessories. I think it was $75-$90! $$

I am current uning an SA table slightly more conservative than LT4 aluminum heads and more aggressive than LT1 iron heads. I have newer edition aluminum Edel RPM 64cc.