Heck yea man .. Sounds like a really cool project .... One day I'll have a ole C10 with a straight six turbo and a six speed for my daily driver :-) .... What kinda gas mileage yall getting out of it now ? My 250 6 with 3 on the tree & 3.40 gears got about 18-19 if drove right and kept it @ 60mph lol n that was bone stock with decent exhaust and CAI ...

KeVm14 check out my 305 build tuning thread n give me some pointers if u don't mind .... I have ebl flash and TT-1 WB also ... Still haven't been able to get my WB controller to connect to my laptop tho :-/

91' bird 305 TBI T-5, trick flow 175 cc heads, 4.10 gears, lots of suspension upgrades......... 24mpg @ 2300rpm hwy 65mph ........ 8.63@ 85mph 1/8th on street tires... 8.000's soon

 

Many thanks for all the help in the ebl surging idle thread!
About got it dialed in now. Reactivated egr and ccp.
One last thing to deal with is a hesitation bog on initial throttle from a stop. It is only when cold. Once warm it's perfect. Of course the wideband is still warming up and not active during this time so difficult to use that to see where it's at. I've hunted thru the ae tables but am not finding a specific cts to ae-am I having a brain fart again and not seeing it? Or is there another way to dial it in?

 

There is AE - CTS Multiplier % which may help. If you have an IAT and you think your problem is also related to cold intake air temps, you could also consider enabling the option word flag to use the IAT/CTS blended term for AE/DE compensation (as opposed to just CTS).

 

Thank you! Yup, there it was right in front of my face....
Bumped everything up by 30%, I'll test it in the morning when it's cooler out.

 

continuing testing plus and minus-seems leaner is better for coolant temps below 170F.

Another weird thing I've run into with the ebl-If I shut it off and wait 5 seconds the car restarts perfect. But if I flip the key off and then immediatly try to restart, it just cranks and cranks, like no spark or fuel.........havn't tested to see if it really is no spark or what at this point.
Has anyone else run into this?
Rbob-ideas on what it might be?

 

The IAC hasn't completed it's reset procedure. It takes a little over 2 seconds for this.

Try it while holding the throttle open a tad, likely start right up.

RBob.

 

I working on dialing in BST - Boost PW Multiplier % (2-Bar) table and was wondering if I would be ok to increase the RPM that PE kicks in to 6000; as I won’t be working in that rpm range right now? My thought is to remove as many variables as possible, then add PE back in after it is good. Also I will not be doing any launches or WOT runs with PE removed.

I think my end goal is to get AFR to start at 12.5 when boost comes on then lower it to 12 when in higher boost. Once this is good I will start adding in 80/20 meth injection to bring the AFR down to 11 for a safety adder. Thanks in advance any recommendations welcome.

 

Also force open loop by setting the closed loop CTS threshold high. Usually the open loop AFR at 0 KPa vacuum is 12.8, which is what the PE commanded AFR is.

In this case you can tune in the boost PW multiplier for the desired AFR in boost.

Be sure that the VE table is correct and done before working on the boost AFR. When in boost the 100 KPa column of the VE table is used.

RBob.

 

What could cause dTPS dMAP to be active at WOT when AE isn't active?

 

Can you post a short snippet from a log showing this?

RBob.

 

Rbob, I assume the VE learn functionality will not tune the PW multiplier table (even with a WB), correct?

 

That is correct. Usually under boost we want a richer then commanded AFR. The commanded being from the PE table. We have been considering putting a feature in the WUD to do this.

The downside is that the user will need to fill in a desired AFR table that the WUD can use for the target. Which means that there is a lot of room for user error, along with possible issues from an incorrectly reporting WB.

RBob.

 

I'll get a log posted later today when I get home from work.

 

So Bob, simply put, both the PE and BST mulitipliers obtain their final numbers by using the values in the 100-KPa cells in the VE, correct? Or does PE take a more collective cell area? So basically, we want stoich in all of the 100-KPa cells regardless of RPM, then tweak the PE and BST mulitpliers in a particular RPM until the desired final air/fuel ratio is met, correct...?

 

Stoich if tuning by NB O2 but I think tuning 100kPa with the WB in OL is easier. And you'd have a WB because I can't possibly imagine tuning a turbo without one. I wouldn't feel comfortable anyway.

 

I have a WB, but it is not fed into the EBL just yet though, I essentially use it to compare my O2 readings with what the WUD is reporting so I am relegated to the NB/BLM for now. So far the two seem very accurate. Gotta weld in another O2 bung first, essentially finalizing its' location, then I take some time to wire it into the EBL, weather's been brutal lately though...

 

When in PE mode the VE is from whatever the current MAP and RPM. It is easy to be in PE mode and only at 70 KPa of manifold pressure.

Tune the VE table in closed loop (BLM mode) or open loop (WB mode), the results are (nearly) the same.

When the ECM transitions from closed loop to PE mode:

Exits closed loop
Disables BLM learn
Locks the INT at 128
Since learn is off, the BLM is held at it's current value
PE spark advance is added
The commanded AFR is changed from stoich to the PE AFR (typically 12.8:1)
If the BLM is 128 or greater it is used to further trim the fuel.

RBob.

 

So it's still basically starting from 14.7, or whatever the stoich value is set to by the user, correct, so it basically grabs the value from whichever KPa/RPM your in just before PE is enabled, but those VE values should all still reflect the same stoich starting point, it's just a different value in the VE cell because the number increases as RPM increases, but it still represents stoich in the VE nonetheless though, right?

 

The engine's VE% at any RPM/MAP point is independent of the commanded AFR.

Note the injector PW calculation:

PW = BPC * VE% * ~AFR * ~T * MAP

The BPC is the engine displacement and injector flow rate
The VE% is the volumetric efficiency (from the VE table)
The ~AFR is the inverse of the commanded AFR (richer is bigger PW)
The ~T is the inverse temperature parameter (cooler is bigger PW)
The MAP is the MAP value

I skipped the INT, BLM, proportional gains, and injector compensations

While in PE mode the VE% value used will be by the current RPM and MAP. As the RPM increases, the ECM tracks that increase by moving through the VE table. As the MAP changes that too is tracked through the VE table.

RBob.

 

The highest VE% will be at peak torque, actually a little above peak torque due to frictional losses in the engine. Same for the highest injector PW, it too will be at the same RPM as the peak VE (torque).

Ahh, but you say, how can that be, as the RPM increases so does the HP, this requires more fuel, via a larger injector PW.

But I say, as the RPM increases so does the injector firing frequency. They fire more often delivering more fuel per second.

RBob.

 

Perfect! Thanks Bob...

 

Here's a log of the event.

 

Which is why the DC% goes up with HP, because it's essentially PW/available max PW. The denominator shrinks as RPMs go up and if RPMs are increasing faster than torque is falling off (shrinking numerator), you get more DC%, which should roughly track HP.

 

Which is why you either need big injectors or to revert to asynch at high rpm when running TBI.

When I datalog my Express van or a LS with the 0411 the maf/map is used to calculated gms/cylinder intake charge. You can very clearly see the VE graph when you datalog at wide open. The airmass increases until just above torque peak and in the case of the vortec falls off pretty quickly over 5,500.

 

The MAP value is bouncing between 97 & 96, then 96 & 95 KPa, which is why from time to time the dMAP shows .3 Kpa.

The dTPS locked at .4 until you lift is normal. I looked at why once before but can't recall what I found. With such low deltas it isn't adding any AE so it isn't an issue.

RBob.

 

Bob, fixed my spark advance issues. You know what it freaking was, I had it graphed like the XFI tables, and of course they go the other way with their cells, opposite of Tuner Pro lol. Okay, that's fixed, and now she's timed the way I want, now throttle response is instantaneous, boost is immediate even with the stock converter. This is why I was arguing with Paul and them who kept blaming the stall speed, because I know my setup. Anyway, I need to lower Launch SA, as now I am seeing upwards of 37 degrees at 100-KPa. I'll send over another short datalog soon. Also, I think it is the IAC valve after all, as even with the settings higher, upon a cold start the steps drop in the 20's, and when they go back up, stop at 91. I have to shut the engine down, restart to set 143, and then all is well...

 

I am commanding 34* at 100-KPa in the SA Main Table at 3000-RPM and up, SA - Launch stops adding timing at around 2200-RPM and it is adding 3* at that point, and the spark advance in the SA Main Table is set to 30* at 2200-RPM, with the datalog embellishing 33* at 2200-RPM as well, which is good. However, with 100-KPA commanding 34*, it is hitting 37*. Is there another value somewhere that is pulling it spark advance upward from its' commanded...?

 

Possibly PE SA, "SA - PE vs Gear/RPM"

You may be emailing with the wrong address, I didn't get the previous data log.

RBob.

 

Bob, sending the datalog to your email in two minutes. I think something may be off with the airlow calculations. Duty cycle is over 100% with the 30-lb injectors, and I am at 8.4-psi of boost pressure. 30-lb's are good for 400-HP, but the gram/sec don't embellish the amount of air that the KPa, O2 and Duty Cycle do though. Here is a snippet for you guys...

 

Bingo! That be it. Should I just zero it out...?

 

You can do that, I did the same on the Buick.

Regarding the air flow value, it doesn't take into account boost. It isn't a true gms/sec which is why it is called air flow. It is only used for non-critical stuff such as the proportional gains look up, integrator update delay, CCP duty cycle and the IAT/CTS blend.

The above uses is why it is in the data log data. Although mostly for proportional gains tuning. On top of that, the CID scalar for the air flow calculation isn't in the XDF file. The reason is that when set to say 502 CI, it maxes out very quickly in the RPM range.

Which makes it less useful for the above tuning. In the EBL P4 calibrations it is set to 348 CI so that it is useful. Think of it this way, on a 502 CI engine the intake runners and exhaust is also larger then on a SBC.

So the speed of the air through the engine will be slower at the same gms/sec as a smaller engine.

For calculating HP it is best to use the injector duty cycle. It will be a little higher then the actual on time as the injector offset compensation is included. Which is easy enough to subtract out and then calculate the true injector usage.

RBob.

 

Okay, I will zero it out too...

I get roughly 475-FHWP at 8-psi with 100% Duty Cycle...

 

If anyone could help offer me any advice on tuning cold idle that would be great. After initial start the idle flucuates from around 550-1100 rpms while the afr bounces from 13-19 afr. Once temps reach 115f/46c the idle smooths out alot. I've tried messing with the "Open Loop - AFR Multiplier vs CTS" without much success. I've noticed while this happens mapAE is invoked along side the oscillations in idle. I'm assuming this is just from the variances in the map from the rough idle or could this be the cause of my problem? I'd also like to add that once warmed up it idles super smooth at 700rpm 30map with IAC steps at 5 but my "IAC - Idle Speed Park" is commanding 575-600 rpms what could cause it to be off 100 rpms?

 

It does seem like you need more choke (and warm up AFR) but you could also have a VE issue so once the lean surge starts it gets into a VE area that is wrong and it just keeps repeating. Can you post your VE table?

You could also dial back the SA corrections for idle control.

What are your IAC counts at hot idle?

 

I'll get a screen shot posted later today when I get home from work. I currently have SA locked at idle at 22 degrees but sometimes it will drop to 19 during warm up. Once warmed up my IAC sits at 5 steps while idling smooth at 675-700 rpms. You maybe correct in assuming that it's from variances in the VE table. The map does jump around alot during idle and hits map areas the it normally doesn't see during normal operation or while doing learns. I do have the low rpm/map area manually smoothed out which helped tremendously with my warm idle but it seems if I try to spread that area out any farther it effects my warm idle. Yesterday while testing some changes I tried to match the commanded idle afr of 14.3 it was idling around 13 afr if I lower the table to try and get closer to 14.3 the idle takes much longer to settle down after restarting the engine.

 

I personally use a relatively rich choke AFR, ( about 6 ) and decay it out relatively fast. Also a fixed idle spark, I forget what. The engine settles in about 30 seconds, but tip-in is really rough until it warms a bit, and I'm OK with that. Prevents me hammering on it until its got a reasonable oil flow.

 

Here's some screen shots of my low VE table and graph. Touching on another subject real quick with an issue I had last year. When I first started tuning with the EBL my ve learns looked ridiculous and very strange. I couldn't really get a good answer as to why and had to do alot of manual smoothing. Well now almost a year later think I have discovered why. For a few years I was driving around with my speedo off by 10-15 mph when it read 60 I was really only doing 50. It was causing my shift points to be way off and I would be in overdrive by 35-40 mph. I finally corrected this a few weeks ago by modding my VSSB module and now it drives sooooo much better then it did. But doing so I needed to start doing VE learns again as it completely changed my fuel curve in the tables which is why the table looks a little rough in a few spots I'm still working on them.

 

Your VE table looks freaking weird to me. The low load areas seem to have way too little VE for what I'm used to. I'm not really sure what would cause that. An exhaust leak would cause it to be too high, not too low. Are all your O2 settings normal? Actually, are you running an OL tune?

 

that is indeed some weird shape there. i think the infamous bathtub curve usually occurs 90 degrees offset from this, but i'd still like to ask if you have checked on/adjusted your injector compensation offsets?
from dynamic efi section "Further Tuning:"


also imho it makes no damn sense that you'd have to adjust your VE table when changing something related to the speedo. vehicle speed has no influence on VE, other than maybe the fact that there were areas that VE learn didn't get to because of shift points and TCC lock and you left them untouched.

 

I did indeed set the injector compensation offsets based on what Rbob explained to me last year when I first jumped into tuning I may have set them wrong though and it's not something I really remember how to calculate. I'm running a bored sbc tbi with 80# injectors at 15psi. As far as having to redo my VE tables for the speedo change I think I worded that incorrectly it's not so much the fuel curve I guess what I ment was that now since I corrected the speedo and it changed how my transmission was shifting it holds the gears alot longer before up-shifting allowing me to hit other parts of the table I never could before which was causing my tables to look really strange. And on top of that the MSD streetfire plug wires I had installed when I dropped in the engine probably lasted only 200 miles I didn't realize that until a few weeks ago that they were all burnt and ruined. So I was trying to tune around that as well. My main focus lately has been trying to achieve a smooth cold idle and a smooth warm idle thats not super rich. I think I might be buying VAFPR soon.

 

I've been hearing that since I've started tuning and posting a year ago. I believe my o2 settings havn't been touched from what I remember. I do have a very slight exhaust leak but it doesn't seem to have me going in circles its like a pinhole sized leak. And yes lately everything with my tune has been OL since I've been doing learns again with my WBo2. Typically the only time I've used CL is during cruise anyway since I havnt spent time getting CL to run smooth at idle and during decel. The past year I was chasing my tail with mechanical issues and stupid mistakes on my part like accidentally setting my initial timing to 20 degrees when I was trying to set Idle state to 20 degrees because they're both right next to each other and start with the letter "I" in tunerpro lol.

 

Yeah ok, as said that's the only influence i could see as well, makes sense. imho for the parts you can't touch with VE learn it doesn't hurt to take an educated guess, but i know it can be hard with an auto tranny.. have to keep it in the gear you want and take a lot of up and down hills at different speeds, loads, and maybe with some brake load to get the VEL fill up all the cells. sometimes disabling TCC or even tuning it so it will only work in a specific range can also be beneficial?
still not sure where the artifact in your VE table is coming from though.. probably some kind of mechanical (physical) issue (that includes an exh leak). that pinhole leak, where in the exhaust is it located?

 

The Pinhole is located in a o2 bung on the driveside header that I have a tube routed to for the egr so it's before the O2 and WBO2 sensors in my y-pipe which isn't ideal I know but its not a big leak at a flange. I'm running a 4l60e trans so I have the old computer piggy backed with the EBL I dunno how I would go about disabling the TCC with out investing more money to tune the transmission. My converter also stalls at 2400+ rpm I think this may as be contributing to why its so hard for me to get the lower rpm higher map areas of the table. I've been running open loop decel since I started tuning the engine I believe that's why the whole 20-25 map area is so low when I lift the throttle it goes super rich and then the learn just keeps pulling fuel. How can this even be avoided when tuning openloop?

 

That may be the culprit. At lower injector PW, the injector offset plays a larger role. So if you have set the offset too high (meaning you told EBL the injector takes longer to open than it really does), then it will add too much PW each pulse. And at low PW, you'll end up with significantly more fuel than it really needs, which would lead exactly to unrealistically low VE during lower PW engine conditions. Can you post that table? Actually, post both of these:



The tables look similar but the difference is, the one that reads in usec is a constant addition of that PW to the commanded PW. It makes a big difference at low PW but is negligible at higher PW.

The table with the % scales all PW values by that percentage, rather than a small fixed constant. My guess is the one in usec is set too high.

 

From EBL_F_BINs.txt: EBL_F_3001.BIN: 5.4l SBC '113 Hds, Isky 280 HL, headers, stick, 80 #/hr @ 22 psi, VRFPR, OL cruise, CL idle

Might be a good idea to take a look at those inj corr tables since using the same 80# injectors, but then again that's at higher pressures. Maybe there's a calibration out there for the stock 80# application that we could look at, to see what the inj corr was for the stock pressure.

Also, i've never really seen the point of the % scaling over voltage. If the usec table already has the voltage axis / breakpoints, why would you need a second table with a modifier for that? Do you guys usually modify this one as well?

 

I'll get them posted in about 2 hours after I'm home. Reading through my old emails with Rbob he did have me multiply the "injector correction offset" by 2 but he didn't mention the multiplier. I can also share my bin if that would help.

 

I forget which bin I used I would have to look but it was for a 350 TBI truck with an auto trans and I used the vortec timing tables since the motor I swapped in was an L31 vorte 350 which is completely stock besides 1.6 RR's bored sbc tbi and full exhaust. Bob had me make certain changes here and there to compensate for the larger injectors. But that was a year ago and things get messed sometimes when your folder starts to fill with hundreds of different bin files.

 

Yeah at 22 it's going to be a lot higher. On the other hand, if his are higher than those, then that's way too high for 15psi. One way to look at it...

The usec is the traditional offset, used to compensate for injector response time. You'd probably only modify at operating voltages but it could be used if you ran a particularly high voltage, or wanted to ensure a good calibration at suboptimal battery voltages.

The % would scale ALL commanded PWs by that percentage, and so it could effect mid and high PW a lot more (depends on the %). Not sure exactly why this would be needed. BPC would accomplish something similar but vs voltage instead of MAP...

Example:
Say you have a calculated 1.2 msec PW at hot idle. The usec table adds 400usec so you end up with an effective 1.6 msec idle PW after correction. That scaled the idle PW by 33%.

Now go to WOT. Let's use 6msec PW for a nice round number. EBL adds the same 400usec offset, so we end up with 6.4msec PW after correction. That scaled the PW by only 6.7%.

In my table above, there is a 0% correction at 14.4V but you can see whatever % you put in there, would be a constant % correction. So if it was 10%, it would turn that 1.2 into 1.32msec and that 6 into 6.6.

 

Here's a screenshot of the stuff you asked for thanks for the help guys. Could anyone also explain to me how the pulse width works and comes into play in simpler terms. It's the one thing I havn't been truly able to wrap my head around yet.

 

1msec = 1000usec. msec = millisecond and usec = microsecond. We typically refer to pulse width in terms of milliseconds or msec (or ms). The injector offset is in terms of usec because it's a small value, but we could easily say 400usec = 0.400msec. Same thing.

You could try cutting the offset in half (table on the right). You'll need to retune your VE and it may not even idle.