The O2 sensor swing is fast.
I'm using a heated O2 sensor-Bosch #13190.
What NB sensor do you use? Could it just be the O2 sensor?
But being that it keeps correcting with blms that wouldn't make sense either??!!

 

Rbob, thanks for the details in your reply - most of it makes sense to me but of course got some more Qs

I'm a bit confused as to what the double MAP AE was intended for anyways.

Then for the wet-flow TBIs... so you would get the fuel to the chamber at practically the same speed as you get the air there, providing AE is quick and big enough? and you would then just decay AE pulse out by the amount of fuel that is pulled off the intake after it is being wetted by the initial AE pulse.

So it does make sense to me for the "cold wall" wet-flow TBI ("buffer") intake to have short, but huge AE pulsing from TPS, but how would it work for dMAP here?

The cold-intake TBI engine of AE1 we're speaking of didn't have any heat crossover from the heads, no TB heating, etc?

For MPFI then, there would always be a longer delay till actual AE onset due to the additional air from the opening throttle taking some time to reach the chamber? also as you mentioned the amount of AE needed would typically be smaller since only the head intake ports are wetted and not the intake manifold runners.

i also noticed AE for MPFI is added as aPW instead of sPW, care to shed some light on this as well?

for AE tuning, is my procedure on track to tune in OL for a target of cAFR in that operating point? i also thought about temporarily disabling PE in order to have better freedom on getting AE fueling dialed in, what about that? of course provided i wouldn't do power runs >5s then.

you also wrote about using too little for low dTPS with MPFI and letting the INT do the work. what if i don't use closed loop (yet) and also why would you prefer using the INT that way instead of dialing in AE? or is it just a case of diminishing return with the added efforts here?

so many questions but i love learning about this stuff ^^ thanks again!

and finally a progress report: got the blueprint 355 crate engine (420hp@5.5k) in that 88 camaro to run pretty decent. starts up fine regardless of weather or temperature and has good power and driveability after covering most of all VE operating points during several VE learns today and adjusting SA from knk retard records after that. it's a bit scary to drive in the wet now actually xD
two issues here:
1) transition from P/N to D.. it stalls out a lot here, i'm not quite sure what causes this. mixture seems fine from the AFR reading, IAC opens up some steps as commanded from the corresponding scalar in the calibration but it will still stall at times.. SA and idle compensation seems good as well but not sure, i'm using values off the 3001 cal. idle speed is similar too.
2) problems with AFRs on a hot restart. it will fire up fine but AFRs are 1 full point or more leaner! i see the IAT is mostly at 60 deg C instead of 40-ish before the shutdown. it has a HSR with a CTS-type IAT in the plenum! so i'm thinking it's causing a heat soak since intake air temp is actually still (roughly) the same as before the shutdown?

 

Is anyone here getting a closed loop wideband read of lambda 1.0 or close to it?
If so-what narrow band O2 sensor are you using?
Has anyone been able to adjust their AFR with the O2 constants in closed loop?

 

I use AC Delco NB O2 sensors. These are the older true AC Delco units.

RBob.

 

Is was put there by GM. It was removed by me.

That is the idea, to provide enough fuel so that there isn't a lean stumble. This provides good tip-in response.

dMAP AE is just filler. It also helps when the load increases such as a steep hill.

The exhaust crossover under the plenum has coolant running through it.

Not really, only 4 cylinders per revolution fire (8 cylinder). There is time for the plenum to fill as the cylinders do the intake thing.

Throttle response, the MPFI injector firing rate is once per revolution, and with short PWs once every two revolutions. Do the AE per sPW and cylinders starve for fuel. Do it via aPW and now we have AE added to cylinders that are about to intake.

Another big difference is that in MPFI the injectors aren't shared. Whereas a TBI set up the injectors are shared amongst the cylinders.

If the tune is going to stay as an open loop tune, you can have the AE go richer then the cAFR. That will provide a better throttle response.

I wouldn't disable PE to tune in AE. The AE fuel is a transition into PE mode.

Without the capacitor affect, AE on MPFI is touchy. Treading a fine line between not enough and too much. Having the INT fill in is better then having the INT drop. On an INT drop as the AE runs out there is a lean sag before the INT recovers.

You can also hide AE in the VE table. This can be done in areas of the VE table where the engine only transitions through. Such as low to mid RPM at medium to high loads.

Big cam and a tight convertor? That will do it. Can change the P/N idle speed to be a little higher, along with increasing the P/N to D steps.

This is why we recommend a bird cage style IAT that reports as best as it can the incoming air temperature.

RBob.

 

Do you have a part number? Is this a heated sensor?
I'll try it!!!

 

This is the heated sensor I use:

AC-Delco # AFS-74 is a three-wire heated sensor. The GM long# is 25312179.

RBob.

 

I ordered one-I sure hope this makes a the diff!

 

drive it, although i didn't have to mess with O2 window terms and such yet, i always use the referenced AFS74 heated delco sensor and seems i've had good luck on all applications i used it on so far.
make sure to order it with the corresponding pigtail connector for a clean installation.

Rbob, thanks for your time on describing the details here once again.

"just filler", not sure how to understand that. i do see how a hill will cause an increase in MAP and trigger MAP AE, sure. just not sure how it combines with dTPS, and also how you would really dial MAP AE in.

the exhaust crossover is the one often referred to as "heat stove"?

makes sense what you're saying about aPW and MPFI.

hmm target for the tune is CL operation, but i think i remember you can also use OL triggering for AE by a flag.. so this would be an option to gain throttle responsiveness then.

if AE is tuned to mirror cAFR, how is it a transition to the richer PE? and also how do you dial AE in for the higher dTPS and dMAP areas with the inevitable PE overlaps?

cam is still kinda mild but bigger than stock for sure, converter is i think in the 2600 stall range. i'm already commanding 6 extra steps for the transition to drive and AFRs are still fine but it will still stall out. P/N speed is about 50 higher than D idle speed.

yeah, i can really see the sense in that now. i just wasn't all that sure that this is the cause for the heat soak problems here. i thought if the actual IAT stayed the same (say 35°C) and the heat-soaked IAT would report 60°C, fueling would be off to the point of being lean, i think that sounds resonable then? also, any pointer on how heat-soak or heating affects the HSR?

thank you again!

 

hey im thinking of switching my combo to turbo, can the ebl p4 handle 800+hp tpi on boost?
i know it can support 3bar map, can the 7730 ecm keep up tho?

 

Yes.

 

Now that put a smile on my face...

 

POI. An EBL is not a 7730. see dynamicefi.com for info on its capability for FI....

 

Does this thread slow down a lot in the winter? I'm fairly new I bought my EBL last spring and didn't get to actually start using it until the end of summer. The colder it gets it seems the less people post. I myself havn't been doing much tuning do to the weather. I spent all summer restoring my truck and repainting the frame so I've been avoiding driving it on the salted roads since it's not my daily driver. It's very hard to do since I love driving my truck with the new motor and I keep learning more and more about tuning. So is it the weather? or are less people interested in the older fuel injection and cars as the years go by? People need to start posting I'd like to keep learning new stuff!

 

Stickies !!!

 

Ya I know I stopped driving mine few months ago. This is a great time to research different topics to your build. Since this is an older injection system most topics have already been covered. There are 65 pages of good reading on just this thread.

 

I would guess it has a lot to do with the weather, I haven't driven mine since November.
To bring some info into this, I did have a question regarding when I flash a tune onto my EBL Flash.

I had remembered reading that if the memcal was still in the ECM that it would go into "limp" mode and still run (kindve) for the time it takes to flash the new tune. Mine has never even attempted to stay running and dies the second I hit flash. I thought it had a memcal in it but maybe its not the correct one? It would be nice to be able to somewhat seamlessly flash a new tune on without it dying every time. Hate getting looks from bystanders when it dies and I instantly restart it.

 

I experience the same thing. I've tried it a few different ways sometimes it stalls sometimes it doesnt but it does always stumble alot. I figured if I tried flashing to an inactive bank it would be fine but it still does it. I always pull over to do a flash anyway since I never have someone drive me around while I mess with the laptop.

 

Ditto with the cold weather. I just don't drive as much, and the roads have issues. With the cold weather the tires don't have as much grip. Let alone ice, salt, gravel and so on.

IIRC, you have the EBL P4 system? If so you would know if the MEMCAL was installed. It will protrude from the case by about 1/2". If there is one check that it is installed OK. Easy to get it off by a row.

RBob.

 

The biggest issue with having limp mode is when there is a change in the injector flow rate. Which is one reason I don't miss limp mode by much at all. On the TBI engine's EBL ECM I added resistors to the CALPAK to prevent the engine from flooding.

Others I just skip the MEMCAL. The instant the flashing starts the engine shuts off. This is due to the injectors not firing. Same as if the key was turned off (although, also lose ignition w/key-off).

After starting a new data log (different file name), I turn the key and the engine is running.

RBob.

 

ok I think I got a zipped datalog finally uploaded here so any help would b flippin awesome!!!

 

and here is a bin to go with it

 

Ive actually got the EBL Flash RBob. Which would mean the memcal is under the little prom cover correct? I mean its not the biggest issue in the world. But just a thought over these winter months of not doing any tuning or anything for that matter haha

 

OK, then a CALPAK, the little 16 pin chip under the cover. Since this is a Port Mod EBL Flash ECM, the injector PW is too short in limp mode. Engine immediately goes lean and dies.

RBob.

 

That would explain it. I'm guessing there's no way to fix that easily then.

 

So if I have a plain old EBL Flash (bought fully assembled from Dynamic EFI) would I have any limp home capability?

 

hum can someone please let me know if the datalog and bin I posted is working properly ? Thanks !

 

If you have a multiport setup with the port mod then I'm gonna say no. If you have a TBI setup then if the calpak is installed you might have "some" limp home function.

 

It can be fixed by adding resistors to the CALPAK. Just need to recalibrate it. IIRC, I did do this with one that has the Port Mod. If you are good with a soldering iron I should be able to get the values I used along with a picture of where they go.

RBob.

 

There will be limp mode. How well it works depends upon how far from the stock injector flow rate the injectors are. Try flashing the ECM with the engine running. If it continues to run decent then the limp mode calibration is close.

If you've doubled the injector flow, good chance that the engine will flood and stall. In this case I don't recommend the above test. Might be needing to change spark plugs to get it to fire again.

A bit more comment on limp mode. GM did away with it when they released the Flash based ECMs. The reason is that Flash is much more reliable then EPROMs. Getting a bit flip on an EPROM is common, not so with Flash.

RBob.

 

I looked at the data log, looks OK to me. Although, I was surprised to see that there weren't any knock counts. Normally get some during cranking. May want to double check the ESC system.

RBob.

 

Thanks. My engine is fairly stock, just with some emissions stuff removed, headers, etc. Nothing major. It seems like these ECMs are pretty reliable, but I'm off in the boonies sometimes, so any backup is good. Any idea what the most likely/common failure mode is, in the whole TBI system? I'm talking about failures that result in not being able to drive.

 

It gets knock counts every once in a blue moon around 1500rpm 30 map but that's it

What should I check in the esc ? ... If I flash a tune with it running knock counts go up a lot ...

Did u look over any the WOT areas ?

 

It gets knock counts every once in a blue moon around 1500rpm 30 map but that's it What should I check in the esc ? ... If I flash a tune with it running knock counts go up a lot ... Did u look over any the WOT areas ?

And could someone also look over my SA tables ? I o no idea what I'm doing there either ... The manufacturers said SA should b between 34-36 does that mean at WOT ? Or what ? And what do u do with the rest of the table ?

 

> Did u look over any the WOT areas ?

Need to get the floor mat out from under the go-pedal. Only once did the TPS% reach 80% and that was only for two frames of data (2/17's of a second). Most of the time the TPS% never went over 50%.

> The manufacturers said SA should b between 34-36 does that mean at WOT ?

Yes, that is at WOT.

RBob.

 

here is a more "aggressive" datalog that I recorded today ... and not as much BS to sift through ... thanks again for any help

 

Better log to look at. One thing that is rarely mentioned, is that the engine will be tight for a while. Until the bores smooth out the engine won't rev as well. This usually occurs somewhere between 500 and 1000 miles.

When into the throttle, on the shifts, there is too much AE. Appears to be from about 3600 RPM and up. Can use the AE - RPM compensation table to reduce it.

Set this parameter to 400 RPM:

BARO - Max RPM for Read

That is to disable the pseudo baro read. It is changing the barometric pressure when it shouldn't be. Can re-enable it and tweak it later.

RBob.

 

the first thing i see is that AE is not triggered by these small dTPS values and assuming VE is in the ballpark, it is therefore a little leaner than it should be (comparing commanded "AFR" and reported "WB"), in the first few seconds of that log and again e.g. at 18:55. also a bit rich in DE/low MAP (->VE) at 19:03 but imho that's nothing too serious.
a little too rich with dMAP & dTPS AE e.g. 19:07, but lean @19:09 because of late AE onset again imho. probably start with a lower dTPS AE enabler threshold value.
pretty rich from AE at 19:24, at the 11.5:1 it shows i would guess you should feel a rich bog here. at 19:35 you even get into the mid-10 AFRs, even worse. i think you need to play with the dTPS filter values... for a faster dTPS value but shorter duration (i posted on this a few posts back).
when you step on it at around 19:40 it's a little too rich again with AE & PE, same issue i think. then with just PE remaining i think your VE's are a little bit off still, since 19:45 onwards shows 12.5 and leaner when commanded is 12, but could also need some earlier dTPS AE here again (at least it seems so at 19:47).
19:50 shows it pig rich again in the 10's.. this time seems it's way too much AE under these conditions. at the beginning of 19:50 it's strange since there's no AE for some short time but it's still so rich?
19:54 again really rich in DE, but then also out of DE at 19:58. need to fix low MAP VE.


still a bit new with AE tuning so take this with a grain of salt, but i'm sure someone will correct me here if needed
the log is very very long btw. i found that for most generic tuning you only need like 5 minutes worth of spirited driving or let's say dynamic driving to figure out what's wrong with AE/PE/DE or let's just say transitional fueling in general..
i think your missing power will be found when the AFRs are more consistent. at some points it's just flooded with fuel, too much to make any real power imho.
also there's no knock counts i see. so i would guess more power can be had with some SA tuning after dialing in AFRs

p.s. just saw rbob's post now. i agree on the break-in, but not sure if it would take that long milage-wise.. depends on the break-in procedure i like to do "ring-seal runs" and some coast-downs after that, but i guess there are various approaches here. also if it's running rich for some time you might want to check/change your oil just to be sure!

 

Thanks ! I Don't see an AE rpm compensation table ? I see the AE RPM multiplier % but it is all zeros after 2200rpm ?

 

That's the table: AE - RPM Multiplier %

Can use negative values to further reduce the AE.

Have the AE - MAP PW & AE - TPS PW tables been reduced from the base calibration? This is required due to the increased injector flow rate.

RBob.

 

Yes the AE map and TPS PW values have been reduced a lot and I have also reduces the filter values slightly to lengthen the duration

So I should run negative values in that table from 3600rpm up ? What's a good number to start out with ?

 

i originally intended to get you to increase the tpsAE onset (caused by higher dTPS from the TPS filter) and shorten the duration (faster decay of the filter's dTPS output).
IOW, the ramps of tpsAE (sh-/)would be steeper but duration shorter. at least i think that's the way to go by looking at the log. anyone else?

 

smaller filter #'s(tps-map) brings in AE sooner and lasts longer.

Sounds like a viagra commercial

 

I'd like some advice as far as injectors are concerned. What would be better for my situation 80# 454 or 61# 350 injectors. When I built my truck last summer I had done a lot of reading and planning ahead of time and based on what kind of hp estimates my engine would make. And based on the estimate around 300hp I bought a bored 5.7 tbi and I'm running 80# 454 injectors. After making some corrections based on input from RBob such as injector offset as well as other changes I cant remember the engine started to run pretty decent. But my VE tables have been confusing. Doing 40+ learns to get close to where they should be for my lower VE table and for the upper VE WOT runs with my wb the Learns only touch certain areas of the tune skipping cells. I understand that its very hard to touch all areas such as low rpm high ve and low ve high rpm cells. But it confuses me as to why it jumps and skips cells causing my tables to have high and low spikes. Could this situation be easier to deal with if I went back to 5.7l injectors with higher fuel pressure or run a VRFPR? Based on others experiences I feel I should be fine with the 454 injectors I decided to go with them in preparation for a cam swap this spring but I feel like that's why I'm having so much trouble getting this dialed in. Or could this all be cause my BPC is off based on what I think my FWHP really is I'm running an L31 longblock with 1.6rr gmpp intake bored sbc tbi long tubes no cat and e-fans. From others inputs I believe I should be over 300hp but based on real life experiences I'm prolly not making as much as I wish I was lol so my BPC could be off.

 

1) underlined part should prolly say low rpm high map (load), low map high rpm, sorry for the smartassery
2) jumps and skips cells to me is different than having high and low spikes; except if the high and low spikes are actually results from certain cells being learned and others being skipped? need to stay in a cell for some time in order for the learn to take place. it can only interpret the combustion's result (AFR) under semi-stable conditions, which is why you need to hold the load and the rpm close to constant over a short time frame.

3) BPC off: i would say BPC being off has not a whole lot to do with your FWHP unless you're really really off. it can even be used to offset (shift up, shift down.. or scale?) your whole VE table imho.
maybe you can show us a pic of your VE tables, and a screenshot from the correction results you get from a VE learn (you can use a recorded datalog to "re-enact" this now in a playback).

 

Are your injectors "2560" GM part #?

I dont think I ever got significant amout of learns in those hard to hold ve cells. I usually interpolated my results. You will note the values in higher rpm/map cells are lower than the cells that you are in peak TQ. I was fortunate to get hits in higher rpm.map cells. it was generally pulling fuel as I over did the values I used initially.

I dont use my WB for Learn but I will glance at it on WOT and if not matching my commanded PE A/F I will move the VE up there to do a small correction on subsequent WOT reads.

 

Thanks for correcting me! I can get a screenshot when I get home from work. I believe the spikes are caused by what your describing I do realize It needs to be in a steady state for the learn to take place depending on the area of the table it's easier said then done from my experience. It's wanting to pull soooo much fuel from my upper table tho which has me thinking I might want to go back to my stock injectors. I ordered these injectors off of ebay they're supposed to be new/rebuilt 80# injectors but they have no part number on them which has me wondering if they could of sent me the wrong ones possibly 90# since there's no part number the only way as far as I know for me to know for sure would be to send them out to get flowed but that's more downtime and money. I've also spent a little time trying to improve AE no matter what I do It still always seems to fall on its face when I mash the throttle and it hits 10.0 afr I've gotten it to improve closer to 11 afr but it's still off. I've done alot of reading on AE and it is still a bit confusing since theres many variables taking place. All these issues have me wondering if I had stayed with the 350 injectors which would of required less changes to my tune if this would of made things alittle easier for me as a beginner.

 

You can run the 80#/hr injectors at 13 psi to support 300 HP. Or better, run 61#/hr injectors at 22 psi with a VRFPR to support 300 HP. The higher pressure and using a VRFPR is a better way to go.

However, if the correct changes to the BIN are made the 80#/hr injectors should work. Assuming 13 psi of fuel pressure, the BPC table is all 103. The AE and proportional gains need to be reduced by 24%. That is the two AE PW tables (MAP & TPS), along with one of the two proportional gains table.

RBob.

 

I think I still have a couple of the 80#rs from the Xfire days.

 

I finally had the time to rewire and install the AC Delco narrow band.
Left the wide band at stioch 14.7 and just look for 14.1
Seems considerably better than the Bosch however:
Still on the rich side, RBob I did notice on the O2 swing it spends more time on the rich side than lean which brings the avg AF to the richer side.
Is there a table that would effect that?
And I also tried to adjust closed loop target leaner along with O2 tables, but it still just adjusts blm to bring it back to where it was-can't figure that one out.....