Getting there however the surge is driving me up the wall........
Rbob-I did as you suggested-took off/cleaned and retorqed the grounds on the back of the engine. No code 42 or any other code so far, even after running it for an hour or so.
Had it idling great at 850rpm in park and drive. Turned it off to reflash-(adjust the vss to correct speedo only). It gave me a couple of fails to flash, then took it. On restart the idle and coast down surge was horrible again!!!!!
Again when I turned it off to reflash it was greatAttached is a short log of idle-with a stall out, accel and then coast down with that damn surge.
I really thought I had it till that last flash and restart.....
What am I missing??????

Update-let it sit for a while-tried it again-same horrible stalling out idle. Then the door ajar switch came apart so disconnected the battery cause the interior lights staying on.
Just went back out-after having the battery disconnected then reconnect, now the idle is back to a reasonable/not stalling slight surge that settles down after a a couple minutes....
Any of this making sense?

 

There are so many things that can contribute to detonation......

Engine builders have learned that it is often more advantageous to lower compression to avoid detonation than to retard spark.
Unfortunately, compression is static. We can't change that going down the road.

There are things we can do.
Higher octane fuel. ( a relatively good sign of too high compression )
Colder spark plug.
Retard spark.

Retarding the spark after optimum gives up the most power, but is easiest dynamically accomplished. If retarding, or more correctly, less advance solves the detonation problem but doesn't give up power, that's the way to go.
NOTE: Once detonation starts to occur, you have to retard the spark ( or lessen the advance ) a LOT more than you would have to avoid it in the first place.

A colder spark plug takes more heat out of the burn. This can delay the onset of detonation slightly, but it may be enough. ( especially at high RPM )

If I was you, I'd try a tank of higher octane first, colder plugs second.
If the plugs foul at idle, they're too cold.
( typical race car, but race cars are not built to idle )

 

There are a few items contributing to the surge at idle and decel. Set this value to 25.5 volts:

IAC - Volt Drop for Steps

The main cause of the surge is the ECM switching into and out of singe fire (S/F) mode. For now just disable S/F mode by setting this tables values to zero (0):

INJ - Single Fire Mode PW - PORT Only

The system voltage fluctuates as the engine RPM changes. This affects both of the above items, as the IAC gets yanked out a bit as the voltage drops, and the changing voltage affects the injectors opening rate.

Do you have the correct injector compensation values? They go a long way in getting the tuned squared away, more so when large-by-huge injectors are used.

RBob.

 

Forgot to mention, need to flip this flag:

Option Word 7 Input Polarity - Bit 2 - 4thIn

The ECM is thinking that 1, 2, & 3rd are 4th, and 4th is 1, 2, or 3rd. The WUD shouldn't show OD until the transmission actually shifts into 4th.

RBob.

 

Thank you!!!!
I'm off this weekend so will have time to work on it again.
As for the injector constants-they are so hard to find......
I've tried leaving in the original values with the lucas 55lb injectors.(01D066B) If anyone has some tables for those I'm all ears!

 

How do I unlock blm for narrowband learn ? I forgot

 

Most of the time this parameter was changed:

Closed Loop - CTS Threshold

RBob.

 

Figured I'd give a progress report lol. And see if what I'm doing makes sense.
This is the first time I've tuned with larger injectors trying to tame it iat dle and part throttle.
Tried the above.
Then figured I'd try to sort out the volt/injector correction first. So to eliminate the effects of small pulse width correction I actually enabled the single fire mode to a higher setting-to keep it continously enabled at idle. Then added elect loads in open loop and adjusted the volt/injector correction. Not a lot of resolution in that table.
PIA! Got it a lot better but.....
Then disabled the single fire and worked on the small pulse width in open loop.
Now a surge on start up then settles down open or closed loop, but still do notice the effect of fans etc coming on.
Have to see how it does on cold start later.
I figured out my IAC is at times sticking so I'll sort that out when it cools off.


BUT, I am at the point that I'm ready to buy new injectors with known constants because this is so tedious and I'm beginning to wonder if I can ever get it completely and consistently tamed.
I've heard that AEM will test your injectors and give you real constants-anyone ever had this done? Cost and accuracy of data?
Or suggestions on whom to buy from/or established (known constants) injectors out there of at least 48lb?
Thanks for any help!

 

Well I fired up the bird last night for the first time .. Set my blm vs vac swapped over the 3006 bin SA tables zeroed PE SA and took 5% out of SA tables and added 10% to VE tables just to b on the safe side and amazingly the engine fired right up before it even made one complete revolution ! And settled down to a quite smooth idle at 650-700 rpm ! BUT I think it is my IAC .. When I first fire it up the IAC I THINK is making this horribly awfull loud whistling noise for about 2 minutes ???? Wtf ? Can I force it to open slightly more right after cranking ? To get rid of this awful noise ?

 

My IAC whistled as well, I turned the screw in until it stopped. Unfortuneately my IAC counts were in the low 30 range instead of the 5-15 that most recommend.

 

Yea according to Ebl wide my counts are around 10 when the whistling occurs .. Then if I blip the throttle counts go to about 30 and whistling stops .. It's really annoying

 

I have certainly found this out recently. The correct Injector Comp. goes a long way towards controlling idle as well as, in my case, getting to a good tune much sooner.

 

And that's an understatement!
Snce I've begun working those tables I've seen the major difference that it makes at idle areas, really significant with larger injectors.
And at this point I really am prepared to spend more money to buy another set of injectors with known and correct data for those tables.
Any suggestions?

 

Hey guys, so I just recently installed a pair of Edelbrock Performer rpm heads, FFI FIRST intake, and a XFI 280 cam in my 400. Been dealing with it not running worth a darn today. Here is a datalog of what im trying to deal with here.

startup.doc
startup2.doc

Just change the extension to .dat to view.

But anways what it does is starts up for like 10-14 seconds then it takes out about half of the fuel (pw's) and it goes lean and dies. Ive tried adding a ton of fuel and anything else I could think of. Any suggestions?

Those are with the throttle screw all the way out and the IAC unplugged after jumping on the ALDL. It seems to have very high MAP readings but from what I have read that is right in line with a large cam like that?

Let me know what you think, thanks!

 

Update on the tune.

Had a gasket on the plenum messed up. So that solved alot of the problems. Now have it idling around the commanded 950-1000. Its running rich but I am more concerned with something I am noticing the MAP sensor doing. It seems to be jumping for a split second to 45kpa from the idle of around 70kpa.

Heres a shot of the datalog where it happens once.


The weird part is that when I look at the datalog in the analysis screen at that same time it doesnt show up.

Here is the analysis screen.

The purple is right where the fuel gets cut from the sensor going to 45kpa. Even though the reading on this screen doesn't show that change. It also shows up in the VE Learn. Is this a sensor error, wiring error, or actual reading?

I just hooked up a vac. gauge to it and it doesn't really blip much at all. It holds pretty steady right around 9. Then I think whenever the MAP goes to 45kpa and the idle kind of hiccups that is when the vac gauge would barely go about 10.

I think I might need more timing at idle for sure however. Will be making changes now but just wanted to post up about this. If you want to take a look at the whole datalog here it is

mapjump.doc

I am pretty sure I hit the space bar every time the MAP sensor jumped.

 

you are very rich. I would expect fuel to be reduced/pulled. BUT you are in OL so no feedback from 02 sensor. I would expect DC to be stable but it is moving? Is the VE table values consistent at those rpm and map in log? Same for the OL rpm/vac table A/F. I suspect the VE table is too fat in those areas. I would reduce VE globally 1200-450 rpms in VE. It might help if the dont vary much in that range of rpm/map. May help to lock SA/idle. There is a flag to check for that and also a SA value to place in that constant.

 

I am actually working on doing most of that right now. Just finished working with the ve table and am going to set the locked idle sa at around 25 deg. Will report back once I get it tested.

 

This one should look substantially better to you I think.
leaneridle.doc

I will study that one later today and hope to get it squared out. Got to go to class now. Let me know what you think Ronny.

Thanks,
Patrick.

 

This is common with big cams, the ECM is starting to think that the MAP sensor is bad and uses a default value. Which due to the cam is wrong. Increase this value:

MALF33 - MAP Hi BARO Limit (1bar)

With an idle of 70 KPa, use 80 KPa for the above value.

As for why the main WUD display shows the MAP jumping, and the dump does not, is because of which MAP value they each use. The main WUD display will use the defaulted value, which is the one that the ECM is actually using.

The log dump uses the raw MAP value, non-defaulted. This was done so that it would show boost in KPa as well as in psi.

RBob.

 

Thank you very much! That makes perfect since as to why this was happening! I will change that and go from there with the tune. Waiting on a correct throttle cable so I can start driving it.

 

i just finish install of my ebl p4 on my 90 gta, and i have the following question.
my car been modify with following: 383ci, hsr intake 30lb inj, tfs g1 heads, 10.5-1 comp, cam, 1 3/4 headers and single 4' exhaust.
i have no emissions stuff on the car and no cat.
is there any flags and scalars i should modify?
im using ebl_p4_3006.bin (aluminum headed tpi)
i mainly use this car to grudge race so all out performance is my only concern
thanks

 

At a minimum need to set the injector flow and engine displacement scalars:

INJ - Injector Flow Rate**
INJ - Displacement of 1 Cylinder**

Also set the MPH enable for highway mode high:

HiWy - Min MPH

RBob.

 

Getting there.....
Still seems some eratic iac responses.

I've increased the max iac steps to 200 to get more reange.

Are there other iac settings that should be changed along with this one?
IAC reset steps? Or others that may be in conflict?

Thanks, Pete.

 

Has anyone used the CFM Tech 68# injectors ? Would the inj. Comp values be about the same as factory TBI 5.7 injectors ? Right now I'm using the stock values of the LO3 bin ??? Thanks !

Edit: I'm running 22 PSI fuel pressure with the vacuum reference unhooked

 

Does the wud show iac counts as commanded or actual?

 

Commanded, and when the IAC is working correctly it will also be the actual.

RBob.

 

already done that, i have accel 30lb injectors what should i modify in the injector scalars?tables? other than what you mention above.
i went on the accel website and got the injector specs
here they are:
ACCEL_Injector_Specifications_150130.pdf

 

That's really suprising that accel posts their injector offsets for voltage! Didn't realize that. Wish all the companies would do that. I know that previously accel inj had a bad rep, but the newer style seems to have no problems-I'll probably change to them just based on the availability of these offsets-are you other companies listening?????

Rbob-Is there any way to gain more resolution on the injector voltage offset table?

 

Yes, it would require a code re-write. Is it worth having more resolution? Don't know.

RBob.

 

Here are some values to use:

INJ - Single Fire Mode PW - PORT Only:

Enter: 1000 usec
Exit: 1200 usec

INJ - Injector Correction Offset:

0.0 Volts: 870 usec
1.6 Volts: 3891 usec
3.2 Volts: 3891 usec
4.8 Volts: 3891 usec
6.4 Volts: 3891 usec
8.0 Volts: 1969 usec
9.6 Volts: 1404 usec
11.2 Volts: 1007 usec
12.8 Volts: 824 usec
14.4 Volts: 687 usec
16.0 Volts: 565 usec
17.6 Volts: 488 usec* extrapolate to 17.6 volts+

Unfortunately the specs don't provide any short PW linearized data.

RBob.

 

What should I be doing to my injector offset tables when increasing fuel pressure from
13psi to say 20 PSI ?

 

thank you sir..you have been very helpful

 

Is there a table in the Adv xdf for EBL P4 bin that adjusts fueling based on CTS in CL.
AS my motor gets really hot the block numbers rise. Have tried working with the b;end filter but just slides the numbers up and down. Does not alter the amount of change.
Thx Dave

 

Need to increase them, try 20% more.

RBob.

 

The IAT/CTS blend table is the only adjustment for this. With the BLMs increasing as the engine heats up, need to reduce the values in that table. OTOH, it may not even be worth worrying about.

RBob.

 

The range right now is 10 pts. I have also noticed that when I put fresh cool fuel in the BLM drops.
This may be a fuel temp problem not sure how to solve?

 

rbob-when you interpolate- in excel you can "curve" the graph or "straight line" it between data points. Which method do you use?
I'm changing to the accel 48lb with the attached data sheet.
As I understand-if the injector is rated with n-heptane then I should multiply by 1.036 to obtain the true lb/hr rating to input?
Also it looks like with the "minimum linear pulsewidth" of 1.38 listed I need to zero the "injector small pulsewidth correction" down to 1.46, then slope it up from there?
Sidenote-I've been digging into injectors-these have "01D116B" on them; same as the 48lb that racetronix has on their site.....obviously made by someone else for both......

 

Curve method is best.

That is close enough, I usually use 1.035. It will normally be between 3% & 4% greater flow.

The short PW compensation is used to linearize the injector flow. The data would need to come from the manufacturer.

Appears to be a Lucas part number.

RBob.

 

RBob ! How can I get the throttle follower steps to decay a little faster so the rpms don't hover for quite as long ? Thanks

 

I have VE overflow at 1800rpm & 80kpa ? How do I fix this ? Blm is at 83 for 68# injectors @ 22psi and 310ci. My VE starts @ 6 at 400rpm thanks !

Not blm BpC vs vac is 83 .. Blm is locked @128 for WB learns

 

You can decrease the amount of TF, and/or you can increase the decay of TF. Note that these changes will also change how the engine behaves when pulling out from a stop. And a lift while cruising and shifting.

TF also affects emissions, so if they do an IM240 loop test where you are keep this in mind. It is used to reduce HC on a lift.

This table is how much the IAC will extend versus the amount of TPS:

IAC - TF Gain

In the case of a T5 the Park value won't be used, only the Drive value.

If the maximum TF is reached there is a slight delay before it gets decayed out:

IAC - TF Decay Delay

Then how quickly it is decayed out:

IAC - TF Decay Filters

A larger value is faster. The entries are based on MPH from this table:

IAC - TF Decay MPH Breakpoints

RBob.

 

If the injector DC% is always less then 85% can increase the BPC vs VAC table values. If the injector DC% is going over 85% then need to increase the injector flow.

Note that if the VRFPR is connected to a vacuum source, the values in the BPC vs VAC table will increase as the vacuum increases. If it isn't connected to a vacuum source, try it, should make tuning easier and the engine run better.

RBob.

 

Since we are on the subject of throttle follower, I am having a issue of the car wanting to drop down to around 500rpms and then go to commanded idle when I push the clutch in when coming to a stop. I messed with the TF but it didn't seem to help much, but I could tell it affected the rpm when shifting because it would hang slightly in between shifts. Is there another parameter I need to look at?

 

Well I had FP at 20 psi and saw some 90-100%DC so I upped it to 22psi and adjusted bpc accordingly ... How much should I raise the bpc ? A few points ? 10-15? .... Also the VRFPR is not plugged up its steady at 22psi ... Which port on front of throttle body does it need to hook up to ? Thanks again !

 

1991sleeper, i *think* rbob was talking about modification of the BPC without doing anything to the actual fuel flow (inj # or pressure). that said, at 90-100% DC you were right about increasing pressure, but i would set bpc according to the spreadsheet or EBL Utility and go from there.
@rbob: assuming <85% DC, increasing the BPC values would create the need to then lower the VE table accordingly, no?

now on to something else... got a BluePrint 355 crate engine here that is going into an 88 Camaro with an EBL, MAF to MAP conversion. apparently the crate already made 420hp @5500 rpm on their dyno already. since I'm kinda new to EBL Port version we tried setting it up with the stock fuel pressure and some Accel 24 lb/hr injectors (should be good to 360hp only but we won't get their yet anyways). I was assuming more fuel pressure would make things more complicated with increased injector offset and idle PW.. Also any tries i did so far was in OL and with the car standing still (not roadworthy yet).

I found some values on TGO for those specific injectors and they are actually quite high already (like 2.0ms at 12V, 3000 at 9V.. at stock pressure!)... I'm not sure if they are too high actually, guy said he got them from Accel support. i did some VE mods on some warm engine testing (all at standstill mind you) and it resulted in a very flat and low VE table! So changed them back to a little increased of the 3006 bin which is what I used for a base. Does that sound reasonable?

I also had quite some issues with timing since I couldn't even get the engine to run with the EST disconnected and the base (distributor) timing set to anywhere between -5 and 20°... I can't even tell at what base timing it is now, I just set to to whereever it would startup and then tuned it by feel.. Balancer mark and timing pointer style should be matching though, and the ignition rotor was also at the right position (around #1 terminal). Very strange anyways.

Any and all input on this highly appreciated... tuning non-stock engine i'm still kinda new to that, and port injection also being new doesnt make it much easier now. I do have some logs but since there was a high amount of starting and doing changes in the bins in between I doubt they would be of very high use, and the SA is not correct anyways ^^
Thanks & greetz

edit:
found some values for injector offsets - http://resfilter.net/files/carstuff/ for accel 150124 and 150824 .. those seem to be correct (and totally different from the numbers i had -.-)
edit2:
put in the - hopefully correct - injector offset, see attachment.
timing issue: looks like an old style timing marks (for a vertical 12:00 pointer location) balancer was fitted to that engine, with a new style (for a 1:30 location) timing tab.. making the whole timing 40degrees off when aiming the timing gun at the tab
found that piece of info here:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...36-post10.html
http://www.chevytech.com/2c44o2.html

 

First check the IAC steps at idle with no other loads and the engine warmed up. It should be between 20 & 25 steps (port injection here, TPI). Once that is set and if the engine still dips down in RPM, add to the minimum TF value:

IAC - TF Min Steps

You may need to change this table:

IAC - TF Decay MPH Breakpoints

The TF Min Steps is only used when above the low MPH break point of the above table.

RBob.

 

If the BPC table is increased by say 5%, yes, could lower the VE table by the same 5%. However, since WOT is lean with excess DC%, you should only lower those areas of the VE table that were OK.

Use those values for the offset compensation. That pdf file is from Accel's web site.

RBob.

 

HELP ASAP PLEASE!!! Ok ... What exactly should I do with my VE table after hooking up the VRFPR vacuum port and Channing BPC vs. VAC table from all 87's to

121
117
113
110
107
104
102
99
97
95
93
91
89
88
86
85
83??????? Thanks ! Nate

 

Do VE Learns?

 

It's way way far off ! Like I did 4 VE learns just setting still in garage trying to get it right at idle and it was plus 12 every time that's 40 points off and idle is searching so bad now I can barely get it to learn a block it's all over the place