No problem with the 4-speed manual. I've already mostly learned in VE. It was very easy with the TT-1 and EBL. It needs more learn time overall, and I don't know what's up at 1000rpm where it tries to go over 100% VE.

Yup, I've been trying to heed that advice of his for years now.

I'm sure that's a lot of my problem. We have a cold air intake on it now. I can have him disconnect the hose that runs to the grill, so the airbox sucks air from the engine bay. I did convince him to stay with the 195F stat. Also, he heat wrapped the exhaust manifold because it was generating a ton of heat right under the throttle body. Maybe we should undo some of it...

I guess I thought we could make up for the colder manifold, as previous folks seem to just use more AE and everything works out alright. But I guess they don't snap their throttle open and expect everything to run smoothly.

 

This isn't unusual, likely due to a resonate frequency that improves the VE. Just increase the BPC vs VAC table and lower the VE tables by the same percentage. That will provide more head room in the VE table.

You can do this as long as the injector DC% is OK (<= 85%). Otherwise will need to increase the fuel pressure some.

RBob.

 

I have a 195 thermostat in my truck, and have no problems with the throttle... the only coolant passage is across the front of the intake (Vortec heads).

What do your AE and PE parameters look like? See if they've been heavily modified from stock by accident. VE table?

 

Then I should probably stop bringing the VE back down when it learns in at 100%, if it's a real thing (wasn't sure if I should trust the instrumentation). I thought about giving it more headroom but it just seemed odd at 1000rpm where this cam probably has a little bit of overlap. It is a 206/206 0.474/0.474" on a 110 lobe sep. Remember this is a 292 (296) inline 6. Idles at 40kPa @ 700rpm (neutral), for reference. Pretty mild overall I guess.

Max DC is about 85% a little before 5000rpm @ 12.0:1 (about where the HP seems to peak), so we have just enough fuel with the 61pph injectors @ 14psi, by some lucky coincidence.


Back on the 7747 I figured out AE seemed to improve when I increased the filter and increased the PW. I thought that would give me a harder shot but fade out faster. Interestingly, my butt dyno told me what the WB is now proving, so I guess I had the right idea. But when I built the EBL calibration, I started with the 2002 extra bin, but left the AE alone to start. The log segments I've been posting do have ONE modification to the TPS PW table, where I added 25%. This is that table:



I can post more tables but if you have EBL they are just the 2002 starter bin.

PE stuff:



VE low and high table:



I need more learn time but I did specifically try to learn in the WOT stuff from 1000rpm to about 4800, then feathered in at 90kpa. I did hand fudge the 1000rpm results because it was overflowing the VE, but next time I'll let it do what it wants, and give the table some headroom with the BPC.

Thanks for taking a look.

 

I will be changing my Patriot Freedom heads out in the next couple of weeks to either the AFR 195's or 210's. Haven't decide which just yet.
If I go 195's would it be a safe bet to start with a 2% increase across the board in VE? and 5% increase if I go with 210's.

 

Hard to say, as the VE may be lower at lower loads & RPM. Get the driveability areas done first (VE Learn). Then ease into the higher loads & RPM areas. Take a look at the log and see what is going on.

RBob.

 

Good Q. Depending on how much your top VE is, I'd just add like 5 across the board and try to do some BLM VE Learns maybe? That way you wouldn't get too far off from stoich, or let's just say a safe AFR. Take this with some grains of salt though, it's just what I would do without any other advice
My other approach would be to do a quick run on the desktop dyno with your current combo with the patriot heads, and then the AFR and see how the the torque curve shifts. I believe you can even get the VE out of it somehow.

 

Checked them all are 15+ ohms.
Looks like they were 24lbs blue top bosch 3, then modified by FIC to flow matched 48lbs and the data supplied by FIC.
I've heard good and bad about "modified" injectors, however FIC appears reputable so I'll try their offsets as supplied.
Also I noticed the inj offset tables are different in the the ebl bins from aujp. What injector are those tables for?

 

I have an idling and low throttle stumble issue, just looking for some guidance in resolving it.
At idle.... my ecm is constantly cycling in and out of s/f mode (single fire), in doing so, my engine hunts as the s/f turns on and off, it also cycles in and out at a low throttle, low load cruise, also causing a very slight stumble situation. What conditions or settings might be causing this constant cycling of s/f mode? I know it enters s/f during DE< and that's fine, but I don't like it coming on during an idle, my idle would be perfect without it, same with low load cruising.

Im curious if there is anything causing this condition, or am I just better off trying to tune the s/f mode out?
The only table I see regarding s/f is for pw only, Im not sure if adjusting this table would have an adverse effect on fueling anywhere else, so im hesitant to try. Is there a scalar with an rpm adjustment?

I am running a 383 with a tf6, and the EBL p4.

thanks

 

There are a couple of things you can do. If the desired idle speed is higher then stock, increase the RPM threshold for the idle BLM cell:

BLM - Idle Cell RPM Threshold

Raise it high enough that the ECM doesn't switch out of the idle BLM cell.

The set points for S/F mode can also be changed. They should reflect the minimum allowed PW for the injectors being used:

INJ - Single Fire Mode PW - PORT Only

You can also zero them to prevent S/F mode, or increase them to always be in S/F mode. Having the injector offset and small PW compensation tables correct goes a long way to having the proper fueling on a transition between S/F & D/F modes.

RBob.

 

Thanks for your reply RBoB.

I will look into my blm idle cell first and go from there. With the issue happening at cruise im not sure the BLM idle cell will cover the range Im in, I will have to verify the rpm at which it happens out of idle.

So the set points being in:
INJ- Single Fire Mode PW- Port Only
This is the only parameter to adjust the s/f?


I will get back onto it after this weekend.

Thx

 

hey folks,
i was wondering how much time you guys allow to warm up before doing VE learns, or let's say, what's your temperature thresholds in the WUD preferences. I'm getting quite mixed results from transient warm-up to warmed up operation.. my WUD is set to learn from 65°C (150°F) onwards.. learning from WB, t-stat is a 195. Was trying to get some learns done on the daily commute which is about a 20 minutes drive.

 

I think you're really better off fully warmed up AND heat soaked (intake air temps) for a proper learn. I tend to see higher BLMs during cooler engine operation.

 

That's a good point you have there on the IATs being influenced by heat soak.. Was mainly thinking about the dynamics of fuel on/in the cold(er) runners and internal engine friction and stuff like that. So, best thing would be do OL VE learns on long drives and have CL compensate for everything else?

 

What do I need to change in the $0D mask PCM 7427 to get the TCC to lock up when combined with the Flash EBL? I have wired the EBL ECM and 7427 PCM to Bob's recommendations with the engine coolant temp grounded to a resistor and inputting 50 C. I have altered the upper and lower engine temps to "Engine temperature for TCC off" = 4 "Engine Temperature for TCC on" = 10. Thanks in advance.

 

That should do the trick, although it appears that the values are reversed. The comments don't look right according to the stock BIN values:

RBob.

 

If you have a WB, try a long drive VE learn in OL (fill in the very low and very high load, while you're doing it) then switch the VE learn bin back to CL and see how the BLMs look. I thought I was going to prefer learns in CL as that's what I was used to. But WB learns are pretty nifty.

 

Full temp for me.

 

How come I can't find the current N/V ratio in the log? It shows different gears in the WUD while driving (the wrong ones) but I cannot find the current ratio in the log to save my life...

 

You mean the actual N/V ratio? Divide the RPM by the MPH and that is it. Can reduce it by 10% and fill in the table.

RBob.

 

Oh. I didn't realize it was that simple. The docs do say the current ratio is in the logs but I can certainly divide two numbers. Of course I'll use Excel...

 

Actually I did use Excel. First I made an N/V column (RPM/MPH). Then I selected the N/V column and made a histogram. Then I plotted the histogram value vs frequency and the peaks should be the correct values for each gear.



Why subtract 10%? Does it always round up? What is the 1stHi row for in the N/V table? Is it that 1st gear is an N/V value between 1stHi and 1stLo and 2nd is a value between 1stLo and 2ndLo and so on?

Also, is there no way to reliably use N/V with an auto? I guess with a stock torque converter it could work, no?

EDIT: Nevermind on the N/V questions. I'll figure it out from earlier in the thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ing-ebl-8.html

 

Only when the TCC is locked. Otherwise the calculation would be off due to converter slip. Since some auto's have 'which gear' switches, they can be used to advantage. Plus we have implemented PE SA reduction versus MPH. This works for both auto's and stick's.

RBob.

 

Now I've got a DE issue. This is another one that it's had the entire time, on either ECM. I go from 100% TPS down to 35%. Because it's only 1600rpm, MAP doesn't change much, going from 102kPa down to 90kPa or so. Still in PE. It goes pig rich, and actually causes a nasty buck. Basically a sudden lift to part throttle. I assume I need DE to trigger in this condition and that should help a lot. How do I manipulate the settings to get it to trigger here? The scenario:



My DE tables:



At a high level I know I need to make sure this event triggers both the TPS and MAP thresholds but I don't know what the dTPS and dMAP were in DE land. I suppose I need to lower one or both of these thresholds, and maybe lower the TPS filter...ideas?

 

There is no DE while in PE mode. At 35% TPS and 1600 RPM there really isn't any reason to be in PE (that I know of).

Even if DE is active, it is based on the delta MAP value. Which is going to be low as it barely changes. For DE to be active there is the dTPS% and dMAP thresholds, both need to be met.

The dTPS% threshold is likely met in this case, but the dMAP may not be. The dMAP value is the same one that is generated and used for AE. Which makes sense as DE is the opposite of AE.

There is also a DE - Coolant Factor table involved. That and the enleanment factor both work with the dMAP value. Basically, multiply the three together, negate, and apply it as a multiplier against the current injector PW.

RBob.

 

Well for one thing it's already at 90kPa @ 35%. But maybe raising the PE thresholds will help if there is no DE in PE.

So any idea what this drivability hiccup might be then? It SEEMS like DE is needed but maybe I just need to raise PE thresholds? It shouldn't really be happening at all, though.

 

In a perfect world if the point of intake is in a good cool area seeing ambient temps the IAT table should manipiulate pw for those days it is warmer of colder. And change BLM accordingly

That is about as good as you can get.

If IAT is seeing underhood heat from manifold and in part environmental temps it will change BLM accordindly as well.

Seems it is just doing what it is supposed to do?

you will go crazy if you chase BLM changes day to day.

 

Ronny,

Too late for us. We're already over the brink.

 

Sometimes you do have to step back...I mean I sometimes find myself trying to convince EFI hold-outs how great it is to have turn key performance in every season. Then I find myself tempted to tune the car for the different seasons. Of course I don't HAVE to....I can stop any time.

 

In a perfect world, the Intake Air Temperature sensor senses and reports the actual intake air temperature. ( DUH ! )
As such, whatever influences or affects that intake air temperature *should* be reflected in the IAT data.

The objective being a consistently predictable AFR by weight, my IAT is located about an inch above the TBI injector nozzles so that the AFR can be calculated for the point the AFR is created.
To my one still functioning brain cell, the intake air temperature is the temperature of the air at the point it is mixed with the fuel, so that's where I want to measure it as closely as possible.
It matters not whether it's affected by heat soak, winter, summer, whatever, since it's purpose is to represent to the ECM the current intake air temp, whatever it is, and regardless of how it got that way.

Were I running TPI, I'd probably drill a hole in the manifold about an inch before an injector, and use that. ( until I found good reason not to )

Now, if it's mounted in a place or in a way that something like heat soak were to affect the sensor in a way that it's not reporting the temperature of the air, that would be a problem.

 

My name is Curt, and I am an addict.

 

As a point of interest once the grams/sec start to rise the incoming air is not heated that much by the engine/ext manifold as it has little time to conduct that heat. If the air cleaner is in a good spot(cool) it absorbs little heat. If at idle another story.

My IAT temps vary widely with rising grams/sec reads in log.

 

Is it possible the inlet air temp(air itself) could be say 85 deg yet the sensor reads 110 due to sensor reading heat radiating from engine that is not present in air stream at say 40grams/sec? IOW can sensor differentiate radiant heat from heat of moving air?

 

I've got PE set to come in fairly early, largely because at relatively low RPM and TPS, the wildcat is already well into its torque curve. ( peak is something like 570 ft/lb at 2700 )
Everything else says it needs it.
Not easy for me to look it up, but if memory serves something like 45% at 2400 RPM, and increasing to 60% at 3200 RPM.
Like Bob, 35% at 1600 seems awfully low to me. Is your engine pulling that hard, is that far into its curve at that low an RPM and TPS ?

 

Well, it is shielded from radiant heat on the bottom ( engine ) side, and the logs suggest it's fairly accurate, but I suppose it's possible. ( 2 or 3 degrees, not 30 )
It only departs from the oven thermometer stuck in my vent window by any significant amount when stopped in traffic on a hot day, so I'm inclined to believe it's accurate.

 

Actually the threshold at 1600rpm is 40%, but the hysteresis is 11% so it'll stay in PE all the way down to 29% TPS. I can try raising it, but I just find it odd that a mere 10kPa reduction in manifold pressure causes such a shudder (and big rich dive). I think during the earlier tuning weeks I had the threshold set much higher but I think it was still a problem then. But I also hadn't dinked around with the DE settings, either.

This engine does require 91% VE all the way down at 1000-1400rpm @ 100kPa, though. Then down into the mid 80s by 2000rpm and back up to upper 80s around 3000-3600rpm. It only goes below 80 between 4400 and 4800rpm. Interesting torque curve. Seems very flat.

 

I treat PE the same way as a power valve on a carb.

 

when tuning at idle, should I be looking to get the highest vac reading or for the 14.7 afr. im getting higher vac numbers but a richer afrs?

 

Smoothest most reliable idle.
Fuel consumption, cylinder pressure, heat, etc. is so minimal at idle as to be nearly irrelevant.

 

Alex,

I have been playing w this on my car. It appeared that I got higher vacuum w
idle at 20d, but idle feels less "nervous" at 18. I'd rather the smoother idle so agree w Cflick here.

 

the timing is 20 at idle, I have been messing with the ve table, because of my rpms going up and down even with the iac disconnected " just a test".
im comfused because with a carburetor I used to set the mixture screws to the highest rpm achievable and then turn the rpm down with the throttle screw and that's it. but with this thing, if I give it more ve it will smooth out the idle but the afr goes way rich. like 12.2. I though that I could bring it to 14.7.. or is it that with 195cc heads 2032 cam and 43 lbs injectors is to much to ask for at idle?

 

But with a carburetor, the idle mixture is a part of the mixture at everything from idle to full out WOT at any RPM and VAC.
With an ECM such is not the case.
Likewise, with a carburetor, you had a few limited options. Main jet, metering rods, power valve, and idle mix, and not much more. Anything that came in at low end had some affect at high end, with exception of the metering rods, and nearly everything for high end had minimal if any affect at low end.
With an ECM, and the EBL is very fine grained in this regard, you set everything at every RPM and combination of load separately.
This is both good and bad. It means you have separate control of almost every parameter.
You no longer have to just accept that a good idle mix meant a so-so mid range mix. You can tweek them separately without interfering with the rest of the range.
It also means you have to set almost every parameter ! Fortunately, Rbob provides a number of "stock" bin files so much of that has already been ball-parked for you.

 

Well those sure didn't work!!!!!!!!!!
Tried adjusting the offsets and couldn't get it to idle, Had to change the constant to 27.5 lbs to get the A/F half decent enough to idle, at 48lb it was lean off the scale on the wideband.

Sending them back, now going to try the old style Lucas injectors. 52lb part# 01D066B. Anyone familiar with these?

I'll try the original offset tables to start.

Anyone one have any info/ideas in starting offsets for these?
Also for Rbob- the offset tables in the ebl bin are different form aujp-what injector is that based off of?

 

How would "flow matching" nearly double the flow rate at the same FP?

 

Dominic,
only if one of the injectors was already nearly double the flow rate to start with
no, jokes aside, is there maybe a problem with the injector offset tables compensating for opening/closing times?

 

My comment was made somewhat tongue in cheek. If the injectors were "flow matched" they should still be 24# injectors. What FP are they rated at? Are they the same injectors used in an LT-5? I have 23# injectors rated at 43psi. If its those injectors, I can give you the offsets in the stock LT-5 bin for comparison and to try out.

 

Yes I caught the "tongue in cheek" of the comment lol.......
These were from FIC-supposed to be their "modified" bosch 3 injectors that would flow 48lbs after they "modified" them.
Thought I'd try them since I'd heard that FIC was reputable and would supply the offsets needed. And yes I've read that "modifying " an injector just doesn't work......
Gonna stick with stock injectors from now on!
Still curious about the offsets in the ebl-p4-3006.
Gonna be awhile before I can tear that superam off again and swap the injectors but I'll try Rbob's offsets in the ebl-p4-3006 first with these Lucas 52lb injectors first, unless someone has better info on them.

 

18.5 #/hr Bosch injectors from a Buick 3.8L engine.

RBob.

 

Owner said "That's a good point you have there on the IATs being influenced by heat soak...."

Many of us have also moved the Intake Air Temp sensor (IAT) because it gets heat soaked. Mine now resides in the rubber shroud of a K&N RC-5000 air filter. Leave the old sensor in place to pus the hole. Get a new one, extend the wiring, and make a hole up front (Shroud of Tourin') and you eleiminate a heat soaked sensor.

A few years ago, after header mods, I was plagued with hot restart issues. I solved it by also moving the ignition module out of the TPI distributor (remote coil) I'd go to the store, and wouldn't get a restart due to heat soak in the module. I moved it out onto the fender well, and strapped a big computer heat sink onto it. More more problem. These aren't EBL issues, just heat soak gremlins.

Dave

 

Hmm, yeah relocation is also a point i guess, at least for those hot restart issues. But i also learned there are two different (or 3?) types of sensors. One type is more like a CTS (with a lot of sensor tip material to 'filter' IAT changes) and the other one is referred to as "birdcage" IAT and is imho a lot more dynamic... I forgot which is the TPI/MPFI type and which one is used on our cars tho.. A search should bring that up too