The easy part is to set BPC and then do back to back VELearns at differing RPM/MAP.

The harder part is to tweek the cold start routines and AE. A WB is a good tool to help on that.

PE should be close after the VE table is reasonably close. It will use BLM over 128(adding fuel) and use 128 if BLM is pulling fuel(<128).

If you have large injectors or high fuel pressure you need to reduce the prop gains. If so look at Rbobs .bin for 22 lbs FP with 80 lbs injectors.

Read intro to tuning on dynamicefi site a few times.

 

Thanks .. Well I'm running stock 55# injectors at 17 psi which gives me 62.9# hr so I already reduced my AE like so --> 55/62.9=0.875 so I multiplied AE by .875 ... So how do I know how much to reduce the prop gains ?

 

I have a question I suppose... truck's running good besides the strange 1800-2000 occasional miss - still haven't figured that out (not to mention the flat out backfire through the throttle body) - but while it's cold it acts like a cold, carbed engine. If I floor it momentarily it starts to spit and sputter, then clears up and recovers. I'm 90% sure it's going very rich. The truck currently sits in a storage spot and is only occasionally driven. Does anyone have any suggestions to try for the next time I dive in with the ol' lappy and usb/serial cable?

 

I would reduce prop gains same %. Witness the effect of the change. Reduce another 20% and witness any change for the good if any.

 

Which prp gain tables would u recommend changing ? Gain vs O2 , gain multiplier , duration vs O2 , dur offset ? Which one

 

I reduced all of them. search tuner pro (find?) for "PRP". Some are tables and some are constants. Hopefully RBob will confirm I will dig up a thread I started that he commented on and post.

Here is the thread:https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ows-large.html

 

Ok cool .. I would like a little verification before I start changing 10 diff parameters by almost 15% lol

 

ttt

 

Want to change the gain tables. For global change such as -15%, I usually change the "PRP - Gain vs O2 Error" table.

Then use the "PRP - Gain Muliplier vs Airflow" table to tweak particular areas based on engine airflow.

RBob.

 

Don't really want to change them I was just told that I should chafe them do to the FP increase over stock .. Is this recommended ?

 

It is recommended to change them. The proportional gains and AE is both PW based. So any change in injector flow rate also changes those functions.

The proportional gains are what forces the AFR to oscillate while in closed loop. With the gain set too high this can/will cause the engine to surge. How bad depends upon how far off the gain is. Want just enough gain to prevent the INT from moving up & down instead to force cross counts.

RBob.

 

Ok cool .. That's what I was thinking .. So I'm now running 17 psi on factory 55# injectors which brings me to 62.9 # hr. so I've already multiplied my AE map and AE TPS tables by .875 should j do the Same with the prp table u sugested ? And what other parameters do u recommend changing if any ? Thanks .. Nate

 

> should j do the Same with the prp table u sugested ?

Yes. Only other change I can think of would be the BPC vs VAC table. But that's a given.

RBob.

 

Thanks again r bob ... I'm posting a few pics of an analysis shot I got my FP set to about 17psi and am still seeing DC of 130s when AE kicks In .. I didn't think my mods were that extreme .. What do y'all think ? Higher FP ? Also any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated

 

Here's Another it wouldn't let me putmultiple pics in one post ... Kinda
Looks to me like I may need to reduce my TPS AE as my BLM drops When AE kicks in .. But I'm a newbie so that's just an educated guess lol

 

Definitely need to reduce the AE. The reason that the BLM changes between 128 & 115 is that it is switching which cell is active. The open throttle cell having been learned in some to 115.

If you do a dump of that log you can get a better idea of how much AE is being contributed by the delta TPS and the delta MAP. This can provide some insight to which tables to modify.

At a minimum I would reduce both of the AE PW tables by 25%.

Can also look at the O2 value and see that it goes very rich.

RBob.

 

Thanks man .. I guess I was right then haha makes me feel like I'm actually starting to learn something about all of this ... I read on this thread somewhere about moving some of the map AE to tps AE for a manual Trans .. How much would u recommend "moving" ? I've already done it actually .. Think I moved like 15% across the board .. Do I need
To undo this then remove 25% ?

 

I don't know, every car is different. AE is something that just needs to be worked at. The delta TPS AE is faster acting, with the delta MAP AE as a fill in. Also, delta MAP AE is required when the load suddenly increases without having the throttle opened any further. Such as hitting a steep hill.

RBob.

 

I have been having some issues with my idle surging slightly on my car. Details are stock tpi setup on a 400ci with the 22lbs 350 injectors and stock regulator, shorty headers, exhaust, and basically stock long block. Cam is supposedly a "rv" cam. I have attached a datalog of when it was in Closed Loop since that was when it was worse. When it is in open loop the major thing i notice is the 02 Volt is pegging at and above like 900mv.

From my very narrow knowledge on this i want to say that something is trying to adjust the idle to much and that is causing it to swing high and low from the set idle rpm(750 at 90d C and 700 above 90) I will also attach a copy of my tune if you want to take a peak at it to see what all is done. My ve table is smooth and has been for a while, it has only done minor adjustments lately. I have been reading for the past month and have learned a ton so far. But just have gotten good at the basics. Let me know if you need any other details of the setup. Thanks a ton.idlesurge3CL.zipClosedIdle_00046.zip

 

When I started tuning my rig, with the old 7747, the "stock" tune was rich at idle, open loop. It was rich enough to extinguish dogs, small children, and some plants, but it was smooth !
The theory seems to have been that idle doesn't generate enough pollution to worry about, in those days.

Didn't take me too long to discover that the prop gains as mentioned above ( up the page ) was causing me a similar problem. Swing from too lean to too rich, smooth out and speed up, 'till it choked from the too rich. Swing back to too lean, and smooth out and surge for the short time the mix was right, then lean stumble.
Reduced the prop gain around 25% total by the time I got it "smooth enough" for me. Not dead smooth perfect, but close enough, though I do get compliments on how smooth it is sometimes. According to the cam manufacturer, it pretty much can't be this smooth. ( also an "rv performance" cam )

Were I you, I'd change only what I needed to, to get it to idle closed loop, and log it. Then, you can see what the computer is doing to try and correct. It may surge worse, or even die, but you can't really approach it with any more than a guess without collecting some kind of data to start with. Then, look at the log, and see what's chasing the surge. It should swing slightly rich, to slightly lean, but not drowned to parched !

 

I wonder if the O2 sensor is bad. If you look at the graph of the log, in the 2nd half of it the O2 signal doesn't go that low, and when it goes high it is nothing but a quick spike.

Also, change this value to 1,000 RPM:

BLM - Idle Cell RPM Threshold

Part of what is occurring is that the ECM is switching between BLM cells as the RPM surges. This causes the INT to be reset back to 128, so there isn't any real adjustment to the fuel trims.

RBob.

 

I just switched that to the 1000 and will test it here in a little bit. The o2 sensor was new when I put the engine together back last march. So it isnt even really a year old yet. But then again the cold temps could be playing a part in it. Maybe I need a heated one even though I have shortie headers?

I have been looking at the prop gain values and trying to decide which one of them needs adjusted. I am thinking this would be a start: PRP - Prop Gain Duration for Idle If i am correct that just is the duration of the fuel adjustments it makes to swing from rich to lean when it is in idle state? If so I will try reducing those 25% and then make 3 tunes to compare. One with just the BLM idle switched to 1000 like Bob suggested, one with just the PRP duration reduced 25% and then another with both modifications.

 

Small update, I made some changes here and there and did some learning now that the BLM wasnt resetting to 128. It seems to be idling alittle smoother once it kindve settles from a drive or being revved. The first couple osculations(correct terminology?) are alittle bouncy but then it smooths out more and becomes decently stable around the 750rpm set idle. I also put a bump of 6 steps for the fan on. It would drop in rpms when the fan kicked on. Among some other changes here and there.

From watching the HUD during the semi rough idle I notice that the sPW is fluctuating ever so slightly and kindve follows the idle. I am guessing that is prop gains taking place? If so then that seems to be where I need to make more adjustments to. Would that be a decently correct assumption?

 

> Would that be a decently correct assumption?

You would be correct.

RBob.

 

Ok, I will multiply the gain vs o2 error table by 75% to give me a 25% decrease and see what that does.

 

Normally, I'd agree. That is, until I learned that an O2 sensor can go bad by just being in the same garage with silicone sealer !
Have you got an old one you can easily swap out for test ?

That's partly why mine is about 6 inches from the nearest exhaust valve.
The tell tale would be that yours works fine when the engine is under load, and moving hot gas through the pipes, then gets sluggish and stops working at idle as it cools off.

You could likely get a used one at Pull-A-Part for about $2.
I'm not recommending that as a standard, but merely as a throw-a-way test item.
A good one will swing from near zero, to near 1.000. If your does that at highway cruise, it's probably OK. I've seen mine swing from around .3 to about .6 when cold, but that only last for about two swings.

 

I think I might just look into getting a heated one that way I know ive got a good one and that it is getting warm. I am also going to be getting a WB o2 next paycheck so that will help alot with my tune.

 

Hey ppl .. I got a couple quick ?'s I just ordered a new TB because I goin that te throttle shafts on mine were wore and had a goo bit of play in them .. I got the one from CFM Tech that claims to be 620cfm over the factory 480 and I was just wondering if there are any parameters I may need to change due to this increase in airflow .. And my second ? Is about CTS/IAT blends ... I just made myself a custom CAI pictured below and the air filter is under the sheet metal where the ccp canister used to be .. Before this on a 50* day I was getting IAT readings of around 100 with the car moving now I'm only reading about 5* above ambient temp. An would like to take full advantage of this .. The 5* above is with the current weather between 45-60* ambient ... Thank you all for any info ! I must also say this is a GREAT forum and an even better product from RBOB ! And I don't think anyone could ever ask for better customer service on these ebl products!

 

Should you replace it a heated would be a good idea.

If you look at you WP display you may see it falling out of CL after a prolonged idle. Stock manifold may retain the heat much longer than headers.

 

May need to increase the AE. This is due to the larger opening with the same throttle movement. Note that this is only the TPS% AE, as the MAP just follows the manifold pressure.

RBob.

 

Ok cool .. What about the CAI ? Should I change the IAT/CTS blends or anything like that ?

 

I added IAT and RBob suggested I keep settings stock. With air temps of about 70dF my inlet temps are about the same maybe 10% higher depending upon MPH

 

Ok thanks ... Also I read somewhere about the IAT/cts blended temps .. What I read was something about watching the gms on dump logs and if it is "something" adjusting the blended temps accordingly .. I just don't remember what the "something" was . Does anyone have info on this ?

 

My new TB should be here today .. What do u think is a good increase in AE ? 5-10%? Thanks , Nate

 

I would wait and see how the largetr TB reacts to tune. Yes I would add 5% at a time if you get a lean AE result.

Here is where a WB is of help. Wil a log of AE(analysis) you can see how soon the AE comes in as well as the magnitude. How soon can be adjusted by AE filter. Can also be RPM specific. I needed little AE over 2800 rpms.

 

Cool thanks man .. And yeah my TT1 WB from RBob should be here in a couple days as well !! Can't wait

 

I just ordered myself a WB as well, so I am sure I will be back sometime next week with questions.

As of now I have fixed a cold start issue I had which was happening with the cold weather we have had lately. Needed to reduce the prime/crank amounts as it was flooding the motor and causing it to die right after it caught when starting leading me to have to give it gas(clear flood mode) to start it.

My idle is better now after raising it some as well as some prop gain adjustments. So it is coming along slowly but surely, cant wait to get the wideband to help me dial in open loop and the tune as a whole.

 

. But then again the cold temps could be playing a part in it. Maybe I need a heated one even though I have shortie headers?

I would use a heated O2 for sure .. I also have shorty headers and on cold days it wouldn't even go into closed loop until I revved the engine to get O2 up to temp .. And that's with me living in Alabama where 35* is a cold day .. I put a 3 wire heated o2 in and instantly fixed my problem ..

 

I will definitely look into that then, I should be able to do that swap for less then 40 bucks I would say. Might have to wait till next week when I get my check from my 2nd job.

 

Well I got my TB installed today and it does seem to be ALOT more responsive under light throttle ! .. But anyways I have a quick ? Does the "IAC-steps decay filters " decay the steps out quicker so that rpms will drop faster after free reving? If not which term controls this ? And which direction should it be changed to decay the steps out faster ?

 

Hey, is there any update on an E-trans based EBL?

Also question on BPC/pressure change. If I lowered pressure a few PSI and adjusted BPC, what are the odds of needing to do more learns?

 

Just getting my feet wet with the EBL. I've changed both timing maps for my TPI. Using the BIN 3006 because I have aftermarket aluminium heads.
What do I have to start looking for to possibly modify in EBL after doing this?

 

read Rbobs introduction to tuning part 1 and part 2 ! IF IT DONT MAKE SENSE THE FIRST TIME READ IT AGAIN ... after that read the help documents supplied on the ebl disc that was sent with the ECM 3 of them I believe .. take notes!!!! LOTS AND LOTS OF NOTES! read the calibration document so u have an idea of what all the parameters actually do ..take notes on this too ... after that go to the very first page of this thread and read every word! and after all that use the search function! search and read anything u can find that has to do with ebl or SA or fueling or anything to do with tuning etc. nobody can tune your car for u without being there , not trying to b an A** im just saying that's how it is u have to dedicate yourself to LEARN how to tune and be patient nothing with tuning is gonna happen instantly .. good luck I aint much further with my tune than I was a month ago when I got the ebl but it is coming along slowly but surely

 

It's going, but slowly.

RBob.

 

Hey ppl .. Ok I am still gettin dc% of near 140 after I raised my FP to 16psi ! I just have an LO3 with bolt ons ! I thought this would be plenty for my aplication .. Does this make sense to y'all ? Which after the upgraded CFM TB it does seem to be alot more responsive ! Also with the CAI I was getting temps of around 50* today and also set the AE & DE option flag recently to allow CTS/IAT blended temps to be accounted for

Edit:: which my WB from RBob will be here tomorrow so I guess I will know more then .. But any ways I was wondering what kinda AFR I should see or shoot for under varying conditions ... I don't have a cat and I'm not worried about emissions Etc.. I just want the most power I can get out of it at WOT .. I already have all my AFR tables set up according to the E10 ethanol graphs RBob sent me an I run 93 octane at all time w/Lucas fuel treatment just for good measure ... Any help would be greatly apretiated .. Nate

 

Not sure how you get a duty cycle over 100%. At 100%, the injector never turns off. How can the injectors be on more that 100% of the time?

 

That would be the commanded Duty Cycle. So, of course the real DC can't be over 100%, but if the ECU commands for more opening time (IOW, more fuel) it's possible to see over 100% at which point as you mentioned the injectors are open static. Imho this happens somewhere around 90-95% already depending on fuel pressure, injector type and resulting opening and closing delay times.

 

Shoot for a WOT AFR of 12.5 to 12.8.

RBob.

 

100% and above is ECM calculated duty cycle based on injector flow rating and amount of fuel that needs to be delivered. As it was mentioned previously once duty cycle approaches 90 to 95% range injector is essentially remains constantly open.

//RF

 

Ok but does that make sense to y'all at all .. I've had RBob and Harris performance suggest 14-15 psi and I'm at 17 still getting these high dc%?