Originally Posted by Thrillo

I have some quick questions: after installing the EBL into my 746 ECU and uploading the relevant BIN file ('89 auto TBI 305), I noticed that my engine no longer idles high for a few minues when starting cold like it did with the stock ECU. The BIN files that come on the CD are the same as stock right? I even tried the California-emissions file and it still won't idle high.
With that being said, I also noticed that my engine idles at roughly 600-700 RPMs when cold or warm, as opposed to a steady 550ish on the stock ECU. The IAC stays at 0 steps and can't bring the RPMs down into the proper range (550ish), so I suspected a vacuum leak. I spent a while hunting for it only to find out that the problem goes away when I switch back to the stock ECU.
Any ideas on what's causing my odd idle issues? Only thing I can think of is that I used a 747 CALPAK in my 746 EBL'd ECU, but the CALPAK is only used in limp-home mode right?

I'd like to get my car running just like stock before I start fiddling with the various tables and settings, but then again maybe I'm approaching this the wrong way.

Originally Posted by slrvette

Did two WOT datalogs tonight. I noticed that EBL is not reading my speedometer correctly. Speedo will was saying 95 and EBL read it as 40..
I use a Vetteaid analog gauge cluster in place of my orginal LCD cluster. Does this really matter all that much?
thanks

Originally Posted by 91rscammie

Also I have a spark knock at 800 rpm it maxed out the count at 255 should I do something about this or is it false as I see EBL did not retard any due to it.

Originally Posted by dabomb6608

I was wondering if it could be something in my tune causing my throttle to be super touchy off idle. It makes it kindve difficult to drive through town with the stop/go traffic with it being a manual. I dont wanna burn my clutch up either. It just seems like the second my foot starts moving the pedal it jumps up to 2000+rpms.

Originally Posted by dabomb6608

I was wondering if it could be something in my tune causing my throttle to be super touchy off idle. It makes it kindve difficult to drive through town with the stop/go traffic with it being a manual. I dont wanna burn my clutch up either. It just seems like the second my foot starts moving the pedal it jumps up to 2000+rpms.

Originally Posted by ownor

I have a question concerning the IAT/CTS blending thing. I'm using a "High-Output style" air cleaner lid to intake cold air from my Formula cowl hood. I was on the highway this Monday doing some tuning and I found that the IAT would consistently read in the range of ambient temperatures (well, about 20% more at max). I saw the IAT/CTS blending table has the rows given in Gms/sec, but since I'm not a MAF guy I have no idea what these values relate too. So I'm a bit lost here how I would go about properly integrating the CAI/CIH in the EBL tune.
Can anyone shed some light on this for me or have other inputs? Thanks!

Originally Posted by RBob

It should be corrected as the ECM uses the VSS for a bunch of stuff.

Change the "VSS - Pulse Per Mile" until the ECM is correct. I recall a discussion about that dash from a while ago. Isn't it supposed to be a direct replacement? Or, is the real issue is that you can see the ECMs MPH reading while others that used this dash can't!

RBob.

Originally Posted by Cflick

I would not assume it's false until I had proof, though it probably is, based on your description.
If it gets stupid ( maxing out in short order ) EBL is smart enough to recognize a defective sensor and ignore it, leaving you with no protection against detonation.

One thing at a time, and first things first.

Originally Posted by 91rscammie

Alright I have most of my VE Tables reading 0 with some slight corrections up and down while doing the VE Learns.

Originally Posted by Cflick

Sounds like ya done good !

For me, I would retard the cell showing knock 3 degrees, the cells immediately adjacent 2 degrees, and the cells adjacent to those 1 degree, absent solid evidence otherwise.

Originally Posted by Cflick

Audible detonation, that you can actually hear, is getting pretty severe.

Originally Posted by Cflick

If you've got detonation, you have only two tools to fight it immediately.
One, retard spark. ( this is the only tool the ECM has )
Two, higher octane fuel until you resolve the issue.
The target is the LEAST amount of advance you can get away with that does not adversely affect performance and economy.

Originally Posted by gbayfisher

I have a question regarding VE saturation. My VE table is maxing out in a small area around my peak torque, so i need to change my injector size constant. I am considering a 5% reduction to start , so my 42's will read 40lbs. Is this a substantial enough as a start, or should I reduce it further?
Now, in changing the theoretical injector size by 5%. Do I make the same correction change to my entire VE table?

thx for the help

Originally Posted by Cflick

I'm not sure whether you want to change the injector size, or the BPC, but what's "maxing out" ? 100% ?
It's not recommended to run the injectors above 80% or 85%. I've pushed to 92% but do so knowing full well that injectors become more and more erratic above about 80%, to an almost total loss of control ( static ) around 95%. ( and the reverse is true at very low numbers as well )
Remember, the injectors need some time to open, and close. Neither happens instantaneously, and that time becomes more and more precious the higher RPM, and so the less time available for all three periods.
Time to open. ( fixed, not controllable )
Time to close ( also fixed, not controllable )
Duration at full open. ( the one we can control )

In any case, if you're going to scale something down, you'll need to scale the entire VE table to match, in order to stay where you are in the areas that are currently OK.

Originally Posted by gbayfisher

IMy injectors are not maxed so to speak, they are capable of much more then my combo requires, I oversized them for future mods. Can I say they are theorectally maxed via the Ve tables? And if I scale the injectors back, do I scale the good areas of the table by the same amount?

Originally Posted by Cflick

AH, OK.
Yes, scale the whole table by the same percentage per cell.
( TunerPro has a function that will do the whole table by the same scale factor for you )
Ergo cells that are now 100% make them 80.
Cells that are 50 would become 40.
Cells that are now 40 would become 32.
Cells that are 10 would become 8.

Although I'm thinking you want to tell the EBL that the injectors are bigger, not smaller !

Originally Posted by gbayfisher

Actually, as per Rbob, reduce injector size, or increase cylinder volume.

Originally Posted by Cflick

If you're topping out the VE table ( I'm still not clear ) but you physically still have fuel available, then the EBL needs to know that it can increase flow. You tell it you have bigger injectors, and then reduce the VE table to maintain AFR in those cells.

Originally Posted by RBob

Telling the ECM that the injectors are smaller causes it to command a higher PW for the same (allegedly) volume of fuel. This provides more head room in the VE table by lowering it to actually provide the same volume of fuel.

You may have been thinking of BPC, which is the opposite.

RBob.

Originally Posted by 91rscammie

Where exactly do you change the size of the injectors. I have bigger, and all I did was change the BPC. Where else exactly do I change for this?

Also I seem to be chasing my tail so to speak on spark knocks, I have retarded the timing with little effect. They happen at 1600rpm to 3600rpm from 80 to 100KPa. Is it likely that these need to be zero'd all the way out. I think it may be false is there a way to tell for sure? I believe it may as this area that has been retarded has a big inverted spike now on the VE table, and still showing spark knocks

Originally Posted by Mikky89

Hello guys, EBL noob hear.

First of all, I have to say I really like the ebl, my engine has never ran better, mild 383 with tpi, headers. I have performed several learns and have the fueling in pretty good shape up to 3500 rpm.

Originally Posted by Mikky89

My problem lies with tip-in, with just a small amount of pedal, the engine falls flat. From the datalog it will be idling at 850 rpm and give it just 6% tps, and the rpm will fall to 350 before it recovers.

Originally Posted by Mikky89

I read a couple of previous posts and have tinkered with AE, but no change. The confusing thing is that aePW in the datalog remains at 0.00 where aPW changes from 0.0 to 1.9, is this correct? AE is shown as Y, and indicated on the dash during playback. It is like I am getting AE, but no additional fueling occurs. However, when driving above idle speeds, driveability is excellent.

Originally Posted by Cflick

Depends on the editor you use.
I use TunerPro. In TunerPro, you can scale, add, multiply, individual cells, or ranges of cells, or the whole table.



Pay attention to that.
Some combinations of engine parts, fuel blend, weather, won't "knock" per se.
If it appears to be getting rough, it's possible you have too much advance, so the engine is attempting to run backwards, resulting in running rough.



90-100 MAP is typically WOT.
Also typically, at WOT detonation, too much advance, running rough, is much, much less detectable. There are only three ways I know, to know if it's "right" at WOT.
One is in cylinder pressure measurements. Probably, you don't have the equipment to do that.
Another, is top end MPH. NOT acceleration ! ( the butt-o-meter lies ! )
More power doesn't feel fast, but the ET shows that it is.
The third is MPG, which is difficult to measure for specific narrow conditions. ( and doesn't necessarily tell you the whole story anyway )

At anything less than WOT, less throttle for the same or better performance, suggests an improvement.



As above, without accurate time tickets, you won't know for sure, and too much advance doesn't necessarily result in knock, though it might.



What are you trying to achieve ?
A fast car, or best MPG, or ???
The WUD analysis screen can show you things from a log that you just can't see while you're driving.

If you're turning 6000 RPM at 140 MPH WOT and the log shows knock retard, then you know something. If the log shows lower engine temperature, you know something. If the log shows nothing, then you don't know anything, and make a best guess.
If the 1/4 mile analysis shows faster, then you know something. If the 60 foot shows slower, then you know something there.
If you've already achieved what you set out to do, then you do nothing in that range.

If your tune is far off, 2 degrees should show a noteable ( but not dramatic ) difference.
If you're close, it may show nothing.

Back in my pro-gas days, ( carburettors and crank triggers ) we would pull 3 degrees less advance above 6000 at WOT, and the only indication we had that we were doing the right thing, was higher MPH at the big end of the track. The change in ET was so small we couldn't tell anything from that, until several runs said the car was indeed faster. ( and we broke bracket )

You also should know something about combustion dynamics, where your heat sensors are, etc.
Late timing puts heat into exhaust ports, and may show burning on the headers. ( and cold spark plugs )
Early timing puts heat into cylinder heads and piston tops, but shows cooler exhaust. ( and may show hot spark plugs )
Of course, it could be the fuel blend on that particular tank, or the outside air temperature on that particular day.

If you're looking for an easy answer, there isn't one.

Originally Posted by RBob

The reason the table values is rather flat is due to lack of data at the other voltages. It took quite a bit of time to get that data. The voltages below 12.8 were derived from driving with the alternator disconnected.

Around 14.4 volts were with an adjustable P/S and a signal generator, using the fuel system and TBI unit on the car as a test set up.

Originally Posted by RBob

The "INJ - Injector Correction Multiplier - TBI Only" table makes up for the time it takes to fully open the injector. The offset values are for when the injector just starts to open.

Originally Posted by RBob

The "INJ - Injector Correction Multiplier - TBI Only" table makes up for the time it takes to fully open the injector. The offset values are for when the injector just starts to open.

From what I can tell TBI injectors get sluggish with lower voltages and/or higher fuel pressures. It takes more time to go from starting to open (fuel starts to flow) to fully open.

Originally Posted by Napster134

PE-AFR Commanded
Open Loop - AFR vs RPM & VAC

I noticed the values in these tables are in WB values. The NB sensor is what these cars came with so im wondering how does the ECM know how to get the AFR set in these tables ? Does it convert the NB values to these values ? or are they only used when a WB is in place?

[...]

Then tested again a few hours later and a whole bunch of knock counts came back ??? :/ Could this be an indicator of false knock?

Originally Posted by LastC3

so with more pressure and larger injectors, that table should mirror the 3001 table ?>???

Originally Posted by morgsie

Would that table work for 68# injectors @ 30 PSI? Or would it just be a good "start"?

Originally Posted by Napster134

Max SA: 31d

FP/injectors: 80lbs at 18psi on 2" tb bores

Lastly, I was wondering what could be causing a really rich section during take off that my WB is seeing.

Thanks all!

Originally Posted by ownor

RBob, got your points, thanks. Makes sense! Some more questions though

I think if it would have been me trying to come up with new data for that, I would have measured the points that can easily be done (say 12.8 and 14.4 volts) and adjust the rest of the values in accordance to that and the stock table data though?

Originally Posted by ownor

For TBI, is there a lot of difference in opening and closing times between the injector sizes as well, or is fuel pressure the most influencing parameter here? Just wondering..

Originally Posted by ownor

So when using PFI, the injectors would likely be faster to go from "starting to open" state to fully open, and therefore would be compensated for most part by the correction offset, therefore no multiplier table is implemented for PFI?

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by ownor

edit:
After looking again at the offset table of the 3001 cal: I guess the most important data points are 12.8 to 14.4 for normal running conditions, along with maybe 8.0-ish for cranking conditions?

Originally Posted by ownor

edit2:

... wouldn't that above quote indicate that the multiplier table's adjustment is of higher priority, instead of the offset table (under the assumption that the time the inj starts to open is rather constant)?