I am not sure what you are asking. If it is a DIS system for the 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder in the Fiero, GM has used them on both 4 & 6 cylinder engines. Should be able to retro fit one. A crank wheel would need to be built and mounted along with the crank sensor mounting. Using a 3.4l 60* block and crank will already have them.

RBob.

 

If the O2 sensor is in the stock location it should cycle rather quickly once off idle. Check the log during a steady state cruise. Make sure that the INT isn't slowing rising and falling. This will occur when there isn't enough proportional gain. The INT ends up forcing the cross counts to occur, but slowly.

Isn't the stock desired idle RPM something like 550 RPM? If it works go with it. Once the cam gets changed out the idle may need to be increased. Just make it at whatever makes the engine happy.

IAC steps: TBI, between 5 & 10 with a warm engine and no additional loads.

RBob.

 

I was just thinking of trying to retrofit it to the 2.8 that's already in the car. I realize the 3.4 (3.1 too?) already has a crank sensor but the motor is currently running well and doesn't seem to need any internal work. Someone on Pennock's Fiero forum mentioned he went to DIS from a distributor and it made a very noticeable difference in top end power.

I also want to try it on my 383 though, I didn't realize I hadn't included that in my post.

What kind of trigger would work with the EBL? I see a few listed on Summit's website but I have no idea what the GM stuff ran on.

 

Thx for the info RBob. Can you tell approx. what time constraints you refer to as being "rather quickly"? I was looking at the DIAG of a steady state cruise.

As for the idle i have a bad vibration going on at about 600-700rpm, and it's also been surging quite a bit but will try to fix it or at least get a log next time i get to tune it. What idle SA seems legit for an L03 close to stock @async TBI anyways?

Thanks again.

 

The crank sensor interfaces with the ICM. That interfaces with the ECM. The stock crank sensor is a reluctor type pickup. I've seen where folks have cut the trigger wheel grooves into the damper.

Then make a bracket to mount a stock type pickup. Note that it is a 7-groove wheel. I don't believe anyone makes anything like it. It takes a maximum of 1-revolution to sync up and start firing the coils.

RBob.

 

Cross-counts: say 3 - 4 at 1500 RPM and 50 MPH. This is counting both rising & falling signals.

I wouldn't run or allow async injection mode. As for idle SA, use what GM used stock.

RBob.

 

Ive had the EBL for a couple of days now and have my Jeep running better than it has ever since installing the Howell TBI 8 years ago!! Very happy with it!! Huge learning curve though for sure. Anyway, my question is this: I went to do a VE learn drive today and noticed that at an idle there were no corrections being made so I increased the rpms up to about 1800 holding steady and still yellow no green...never got a green/correction at any rpm. Is this normal or am I doing something wrong? This would Only be like the 4th learn while driving.

 

I have a question about TCC settings.

I noticed my t/c locking under wot so I increased the mph on forced lock scalar to 160mph, that should take care of wot lockup.
However, I am also getting 3rd gear, and I believe 2nd gear locking under light throttle. Is it even possible to have t/c lock in second?
Is there a low gear flag for tcc control? I dont mind 3rd locking, but not too keen on 2nd gear lockup, if indeed that is what I saw.
edit* the WUD does show proper gear confirmation.
thx

 

There are two learn modes, using the BLM or using WB setup. For BLM mode the ECM needs to be in closed loop and BLM Learn mode.

For either learn mode the engine coolant needs to be within the temperature window defined in the WUD Preferences dialog for VE Learn.

RBob.

 

A 700R4 will lock up in 2nd, 3rd, & 4th. It can't lock in 1st as the fluid circuit for lockup is cut off.

There are two sets of TCC tables in the calibration, one set for 2nd & 3rd, the other for 4th. Can use either the lock/unlock table to prevent lockup in 2nd, or use the minimum MPH settings to prevent lockup at lower speeds and light throttle (such as when in 2nd gear).

Since this is under light throttle, can also use the coast release TPS% settings to unlock at light loads. With there being several ways to do this it may take some playing around with the settings to find the ones that work best.

Note that in the Tuning Guide book sticky, Chapter 5, under the '8746/8063/7747 ECM there is a TCC logic write up. This is helpful in understanding the lock/unlock tables, as they can be confusing.

RBob.

 

Not sure I understand what you're saying about the cross-counts.. referring to the O2 cycling maybe? Still missing an absolut time measure that I can relate my cycling speed to, but maybe I'm looking at it from the wrong point.
edit: got a 4-wire heated O2 sensor in stock location on a set of hooker 2055 shorties

As for async, I'm the guy from Austria running the L03 with async TBI on the PortMod EBL until the new motor is ready to drop in

Tuning is going well so far but I do have some more questions.

Did some BLM & WBO2 learns today and one thing got me wondering: when using WBO2 VEL, wouldn't you also have to set the OL AFR tables up in a way that they would correspond to 14.7:1, or is the learned VE value based on a calculation of commanded AFR and the current AFR? Also, i noticed that it would also use values when the engine was at low MAP/high VAC when decelerating e.g. in 2nd gear, so it would have a lean reading because of DE/DFCO or something and therefore learn a VE correction of +12 for these areas.

Also have a real bad idle surge I can't seem to fix. I set my IAC and I now have readings of about 15-20 IAC steps when fully warmed up, does that sound right? Need to check on the logs tomorrow.

Thanks for any hints,
Andi

 

Cross-counts is the O2 signal crossing the (about) stoich threshold. This is from the signal rising or falling through 450 mV (approximately). Use the WUD and graph the data log via the Analysis display, need to turn off the Preferred WB to get the graph to show the NB signal.

> Cross-counts: say 3 - 4 at 1500 RPM and 50 MPH. This is counting both rising & falling signals.

That is per second. Count the cross-overs for a second of steady state engine running. At idle it will be a lot slower.

> or is the learned VE value based on a calculation of
> commanded AFR and the current AFR?

VE Learn in open loop via a WB uses the commanded AFR to compare to the WB reported AFR.

> Also, i noticed that it would also use values when the engine was
> at low MAP/high VAC when decelerating e.g. in 2nd gear, so it would
> have a lean reading because of DE/DFCO or something and therefore
> learn a VE correction of +12 for these areas.

This is caused by the injector PW being very small. The AFR will swing very rich and very lean with the slightest change in VE%. Having the injector compensations correct helps in this regard.

> Also have a real bad idle surge I can't seem to fix.

Make sure that it isn't bouncing off the stall saver. Also set the voltage drop to add steps to 25.5 volts: IAC - Volt Drop for Steps

Injector compensations help with this along with not having any lean areas in the VE table.

RBob.

 

Alright, thanks!

got what you said about the cross-counts, I'll have a look at that.

i will look into injector offsets but need to readup on that too.
i noticed i already have a VE overflow in WOT at about 3200 rpm, so i could prolly bandaid this with some BPC fudging but not sure how far i can go. for now i'm set with static fuel pressure but since i'll be going to PFI soon it's prolly not worth the effort to fab the lines i need to convert to afpr i guess.

i already "disabled" the stall saver to rule that out by setting the entry rpm very low.

 

Been able to get a lot of tuning done lately and its been moving right along in a positive direction...woohoo!

But something I've noticed
I can drive and do a nice 3 min datalog an on decel INT 128 BLM 128 which is normal. Now I stop to get gas or something.... I leave the computer on while the car is off. Get back in start the car and begin driving again. Now everytime it goes to OL during decel INT 128 BLM 134 or 129. Those are numbers I'm not believing since if I reboot the software is goes back to 128's during decel.
Is something locking up in the software or is it recommend to always shut it down?

 

I take it by 'software' you are referring to the WUD? We've seen some strange issues in the past between builds with debug turned on versus it being built for release. This may be one of those issues that we didn't find.

RBob.

 

Yep thats what I meant the WUD display, I also meant a 13 min datalog not 3. Guess I got typing to fast!..lol
I monitored it today while on a 30 min drive without any stops. On both trips it monitored fine until I got to the 22-24 min marks then it was doing some strange things. But I tossed it up as it was just to long to have it running. Once stopped I rebooted my computer and reopened it and it was good to go.

 

I actually saw a similar issue when doing VE learns this weekend in the evening. I stopped and flashed a new BIN after some learning, and it would still add fuel again although the WBO2 seemed to be OK.
Not sure if that's the same issue but I should have a log of it. Since the outside temperatures were dropping with a weather change also, I wasn't sure if it might have been an effect of intake air temperature and incorrect compensation therefor.

 

Do a dump of the log file and compare the commanded AFR to the WB reported AFR. That is what is used for the VE Learn in open loop while using the WB method.

RBob.

 

Well I was doing BLM learns after the WBO2 learns didn't gain any substantial improvements anymore. I was just peeking at the WBO2 AFR and saw that at some points it would add fuel for the VE Learn although the WBO2 was reporting 14.7 AFR or therebouts

 

Hey guys, I'm having a issue with my idle. Specs are 400ci TPI with 22lbs injectors from a 350. Stock everything else for the TPI setup(other then the EBL Flash of course)
It is loping and wont hold a steady idle in CL. I will attach a datalog of it idling. Where should I look at to solve this? VE learns arent doing anything at idle even though it turns green, it stays at 0.
Hotmail(1).zip

 

Try turning your SA down... 24 seems a bit high imo, my 383 did the same thing with a lot of advance at idle. Sometimes it's better to use the Idle SA flag and parameter.

 

Ok, I went in and copied the SA Main Table from the 3005 bin, which was a 5.7 TPI Auto tune. It had lower SA numbers then the tune I had. I wont be able to try it out till tomorrow.

 

Hey guys, recently purchased an EBL. I've had good luck so far with getting everything going and feel I've dialed in my VE tables fairly well via my WBO2. I've read through this entire thread which took me a few days so I'm still picking up things here and there.

I have a 92 454ss (TBI) truck that's supercharged w/2-bar MAP and VRFPR. My questions are regarding AFR, AE and PE. During accel my AFR dips down to 10:1 AFR. I pretty sure this is too rich. I've attached a small log which reflects this.

My questions are:

1. Should AE and PE be active at the same time?
2. Any tips to reduce AE in my case, if need be?

Also if anyone else sees anything in the log that needs attention feel free to let me know as I'm still an EBL newb.

 

Yes too rich. Reduce the AE tables for TPS and MAP incrementally maybe 10% and rerun.

AE PE can be active at same time. If both parameters are met. Often AE will time out as PE stays on. Shows in a WB log clearly. Today I have my PE set to 70%. My AE tends to stay on too long as my filters are greatly reduced to bring AE in sooner and then AE is longer in duration. This week I upped the PE % too lessen the overlap.

 

Reduce by 10% and rerun until I get a more acceptable AFR. Got it thanks.

Can you elaborate on what you mean regarding setting PE to 70%? Just want to understand what exactly you did there. Thanks.

 

At 70% TPS position. For me set at 50% was way too soon. Overlapped AE.

 

Thanks Ronny. Makes sense.

Another question I have for everyone:

I'm attempting to gain coverage (VE Learns) in the WOT areas of the VE tables (100 kpa areas). Its proving to be difficult with with my supercharger, as from my understanding the EBL won't learn while in boost.

Its it advisable to "disconnect" the output of the S/C and run it like that temporarily so I can gain more coverage in the 100kpa areas? I'd be putting a filter on the TBI/Intake and leaving the VRFPR in place.

Figure this is my best shot at getting VE learn coverage in the 100kpa areas. From my understanding the VRFPR will remain static > 0 in/Hg vac. Plus I figure leaving the serp belt connected will also accommodate the HP loss it takes to turn it.

So, is this advisable or am I missing something? Thanks everyone.

 

That is an intriguing question. If you are in CL(if ever) at what RPM-TPS% does it fall out of CL? I believe the qualifier for PE is % of TPS. Setting PE to 95% may be a very bad idea as it needs the xtra fuel. I recently set my PE TPS% higher(for a diff reason) but have not yet logged PE after change.

Something tells me you need to tune with WB feeback to ECU for learn to occur.

 

Maybe not C/L or in PE, but can use a W/B o2 in open loop.

 

I have a WBO2 hooked into the EBL and have been doing OL VE learns. Also I run CL normally. Probably should have specified that. Its proving hard to hit the 100kpa areas when boosted as my WOT runs go from lets say, 40kpa to 130kpa, so I only hit 100kpa for a few seconds or less. From what I've gathered the EBL bases a lot of its calculations off the 100kpa columns while in boost, which is why I'm trying to dial in those areas.

Here's what my PE - TPS% Enable table looks like:

RPM TPS
800 32.16
1600 32.92
2400 34.90
3200 50.20
4000 60.39
4800 60.39
5600 60.39
6375 60.39

As you can tell I have PE set to come in pretty quick to accommodate boost. Sounding like my best bet would be just keep doing WOT runs with S/C connected...?

 

Definitely MAYBE !!

As one some of us remember fondly wrote at least once....

Too rich, or not enough advance, you foul plugs.
Too lean, or too much spark advance, you buy internal engine parts !

My torquer will dip 10:1 during *hard* glued-to-the-floor acceleration briefly.
It likes it, briefly. Then, it likes high 11's, low 12's. *I* would like to buy less gasoline, but I like buying pistons even less.
10:1 sounds rich, but if it isn't blowing smoke, and plug cuts look OK, I'd think carefully about it, and look at performance with small changes.
If it stumbles, falls on it's face, blows black smoke, then it's probably a bit rich.

 

Experiencing a similar ( but not blown ) challenge a while back, I decided it was worth a set of brakes. ( just make sure you give them time to cool off )
A heavy trailer and a big hill can help, too.

 

Your PE settings are VERY LATE compared to what I like. For example, my TPI was in PE by 25% throttle over most of the RPM curve. My Hemi is in PE by 18% throttle. I like being in PE by the time I am above 80 KPA MAP. No reason to have the engine struggling under load with a lean mixture.

 

A buddy that owns a performance shop with a Mustang Dyno helps as well.

 

If you disconnect the SC output you won't get the same physical VE as you would with the SC connected. And btw, by 100 kPa MAP you're referring to "100%" MAP, as in 1 bar boost when assuming a 2 bar sensor? That would mean you can't even reach that without the forced induction.
In case you were referring to naturally aspirated ("off-boost") WOT, you'd be close to atmospheric pressure, but dunno what MAP value that would translate to when using a 2 bar MAP sensor..

Not sure if the tables or their headers (XDF?) are changed when using a MAP sensor with another range. I'm assuming they stay the same.. so the 2 bar MAP sensor's voltage would translate to other values.(0V = 0 kPa = 1 bar vacuum, 2.5V = 50 kPa = ~atmospheric, 5V = 100 kPa = 1 bar boost? prolly something like this..)


Dunno which VRFPR you got but most will add fuel in a 1:1 ratio, meaning it will add 1 psi of fuel for every 1 psi of input vacuum signal. So if you set static fuel pressure at atmospheric pressure, for every 1 psi of vac, it would deduct 1 psi of FP, and for every 1 psi of boost, it would add 1 psi of FP analogously.

Accounting for the HP drag by the SC by disconnecting the belt, I'm not sure but the SC just puts a higher load on the engine so that might be an OK procedure. Although I still think that the VE of your engine will be different at natural aspiration compared to SC'd.

 

The TPS settings in the 30% range are when I'm around 80kpa MAP. I probably should tweak the 3200+ RPM ranges though as well. Thanks.


I thought about this later after I posted and I think you are right.


I was referring to 100 kpa as in 0 boost (0 vac) / or NA WOT off-boost as you said - where the EBL can do VE learns. Anything > 100 kpa I do not believe the EBL will do a VE learn. I am running a 2-bar map.


I'm running the aeromotive 13301, which I believe operates in a similar fashion to what you've mentioned.

The answer I got from RBob was to run a shorter belt and bypass the SC, to get better WOT VE coverage. Hopefully this will help out anyone who's trying to tune a similar setup in the future.

Thanks guys!

 

In need of some help in tuning, I have had EBL for a few years but have not had the car done enough to tune. So now I have it on the road I would like to get it tuned. I have been doing VE learns thats easy enough, but when it comes to alot of the other stuff I get lost. I have been reading and I understand I need to change some things due to the injectors being larger. I have a 305 with 350 injectors. Now I changed the BPC vs VAC and thats as far as I got. What are the other ones to change and how is it done?

Ok, I know what I need to do is reduce the AE MAP & TPS% PW tables by the injector size ratio, from reading but how do I do this and exactly where?

Alright I believe I found the spot but how? How do I get the percentage and aply that to the table?

 

Sounds like you need to spend a couple hours going over your calibration document. I see you've found the info..

Tip: PW based settings most often need adjustment for flow/pressure changes, ie. AE-PW ect. You can start with changes based on an amount or percentage of pressure/size change.

 

Not really sure on the what your talking about on the calibration document. but I did change the BPC vs VAC. These are things that I have searched and found on here. After I changed the BPC table and only that the car ran really bad. So I changed it back so either I have to change the other AE MAP & TPS% PW tables by the injector size ratio but not really sure how. The car had 55lb injectors and now has flow matched 61lb injectors (supposedly) and 14lb of pressure.

 

I'm probably doing it the hard way.
You know the injector(s) flow rate, and the fuel pressure, and the time that flow rate is happening, you can calculate how much fuel flows for each. Divide one by the other, and you have the percentage change. Since you now know how ( ) to calculate how much fuel flows per increment of time, you can then calculate against your changes and see if you're close. ( sanity check )

Since you're deriving a scale factor, it doesn't matter if your calculation is absolutely accurate, so long as all errors are applied the same way in every calculation run.

 

What I would do to start with....
Calculate the BPC that you think you should have.
Run a VE learn, but do not apply the changes !
Adjust the BPC by the relative amount the VE learn suggests.
That'll get you close, and should be very close to what you calculate for those injectors by *not* scaling them, if you did the math right.
If you scaled the BPC correctly, based on the square law flow changes, it *should* be very close to what the engine wants, or at least what it was before.
Note that it's not linear !

Alternatively, run the VE learn, but apply the average change to the BPC and not to the VE table.
That should also get you close.

 

HA !!

A few years ago, a buddy had a shop, and I was working out the details for a chassis dyno based on a water brake. Reasonably simple design, actually.
BUT, the Ol Lady left me, about the same time the economy ( and employment ) took a dive, so projects got shelved, changed, and canceled.

Your way is decidedly better.

 

So basically you are telling me that if I do a VE learn in which I have done many of To just, adjust the BPC and nothing else, and this would be all I need to do?

My VE learns were subtracting like 10 in most places the first two learns I did, now not so much unless it is in a zone I have not been in yet. This is what I did I did many VE Learns, then I changed the BPC from 134 to 114 by using the utility, and not VE learns. So that would be why it subracted 10 the first two time I did VE learns. So basically this is the same thing your telling me right? But my car ran real bad, if this is right I have to leave it 114 and do VE learns and would probably see it adding back some in spots. Or am I confused I sure feel confused.

Also my VE tables are very spiky and full of valleys definitely looks more topographical Colorado cayon and mountains

 

Have a another question, what could cause this?
I did a datalog and I notice at the 2 min mark and 8 min mark I had hit the same cell in my Low VE table but had a BLM 124 at 2 min and BLM of 136 at 8 min.
Everything was identical in Closed Loop (CTS,RPM,MAP,TPS,MPH and so on) and its the same cell ?
Not that its a big deal but wondering why the end result is different.

 

It's my opinion that this why BLM exists, to allow dynamic corrections as-needed at the moment, somewhat slower than the INT, and more coarse.

Perhaps the humidity was different, or the outside air temp, or elevation above sea level ?

Perhaps the cell it was moving from carried over some excess fuel, or lack thereof.

For me, when I see BLM moving up and down by approximately the same amount, up one time, down the next, then the VE for that cell is correct. It's supposed to "float" around the same center target number on average.
For me, +/- 4 or 5 is "close enough" for the range of operation I expect.
Rumor is that you can get closer, until the weather changes, but is it worth the effort ?

 

No, but until the BPC is correct, you'd be chasing your tail by adding more confusion.
Once the BPC is correct, then you can shape the VE table.

And at that point, it ran super lean, stumbled, and VE learn wanted to add that 10 back, yes ?

Rbob can chime in whenever, but what I would do, is restore the VE table you had at the time the fuel flow changed. ( injectors, fuel pressure ) Then, use the utility to get the correct BPC, and try that.
Then, if a VE learn shows, for instance that ALL corrections are minus, I'd leave the VE alone, and adjust BPC a small amount. When VE learn is showing some up and some down, then apply VE learn to the VE table to shape it, because you then know that the over-all level is approximately right.

VE learn changes both the LEVEL and SHAPE of the VE table, cell by cell, assuming you can run in those cells.
BPC changes the LEVEL, but NOT the SHAPE, and affects EVERY cell, whether you can run in it, or not.( among other things, like choke AFR, PE, AE, etc )
Had you changed the BPC first, I suspect your VE table would not be spiky at all. It would still be fairly smooth, and much, much closer to start with.

Just to be safe, say your initial VE learn was showing corrections *on average* of something like minus 10% of whatever the cell was. I'd lower the BPC 5% and run again, expecting the learn to show it wants another -5%, which both confirms my method, and relative amount of correction, and keeps me safely away from running too lean.
Either way, you should find it agrees fairly closely with the BPC utility, if you did the math right.

 

Ok, BPC first.

Yes, it started adding 10 back, and seemed to run better again.


Ok, I will return to the stock calibration, and set the BPC to 114 then if it wants to subract 10% from all I will change the BPC down 5% to be safe. Then I will do a VE learn. Thanks for the help it is much appreciated. Plus it is probably good to set the smoothing factor a little lower to I assume.

 

Ok, I set BPC to 114 and copied the stock tables over to VE. Then I did a VE learn and saw that 10 was being subtracted so I subtracted 5 and put in 109 for BPC not quite 5%. Then did another VE Learn and saw some parts staying 0 and some changing up to -8 so I left it at 109 should I take it a little lower to 107 or no? Am I going in the right direction?

Just wondering cause if I put 109 or so in the calculations it would mean my injectors are flowing way more than what they were rated at.

 

Absent more evidence, and a good deal of studying the docs, I'd leave the BPC at 109 unless or until there's a compelling reason to change it again. ( such as VE's that end up above 90% or below 5% )
That some cells are correcting zero says you're in the ball park. ( and within 5% of what the BPC utility says it should be. Imagine that ! ) I'd save this calibration as-is someplace so you KNOW you can get back to it, along with notes as to what it is, and why, then decide on the next step.
IMHO, your objective should be to get the tune roughed in across the board first, so that it runs OK, nothing goes into danger zones ever, and about everything is within the computer's range, even if close to the limits. Then, collect data. A lot of data. Then, you follow what the engine is telling you, and not necessarily what you think it ought to be telling you.

Maybe your injectors *are* flowing more than you think !
My 80 pounders flow something close to 110 at the 24 PSI fuel pressure I'm running, and it *will* change things, across the board.
I'd measure the fuel pressure next, so you know. I've measured those 13 PSI TBI pumps anywhere between 10 and 15, which is a pretty wide range percentage wise, and absolutely will cause you to not have what you think you have.
You have to start from knowns. If that means a fuel pressure gauge, then you get a gauge. If it means you need a timing light to confirm the WUD is accurately reporting crank angles, then you get a timing light. ( some of us found odd things in latency tables, and there's a thread on that )
Probably, you can do things like borrow a gauge and measure fuel pressure. Once you know what it is, then you don't really need the gauge, until something changes.

Find a stock tune for as close as possible to your engine combination, as a sanity check. Deviating from it by 10 or 15 percent should be expected, but deviating 50 or 60 percent would say something is not what you think.

 

Alright I will just continue to tune off of this the table was a little smoother. Not by a lot but some. I already have a pressure gauge hooked up and it reads at 14psi most of the time. Funny thing is the injectors were supposedly flow matched to 55lb but reading the part number they are 61lb injectors. The EBL would confirm that they are at least 61lb.

Also I have a spark knock at 800 rpm it maxed out the count at 255 should I do something about this or is it false as I see EBL did not retard any due to it.