Sounds reasonable .. But this table is pretty much what it was at after I multiplied by 1.3 .. It really hasn't changed since .. Cause I haven't done any real learns since

 

Have you been able to get a "hit" in any of the cells showing over 85?

If not I would reduce them and try to get a hit by use of throttle and an elevation grade to drive up map value.

 

Ok .. So u think I should reduce the whole table by a percentage ? And by a hit u mean during a learn correct ?

 

Well I multiplied by 1.3 so I'm thinking about dividing the whole table by like 1.15 and just letting it learn from there .. Bad idea ?

 

That is a good starting point. In general I like the highest VE numbers to be in the 85% to 95 % range. To achieve this use the BPC table. As long as you don't run out of injector (see duty cycle (DC%)), can increase the BPC to lower the VE table and vice-verse.

RBob.

 

Ok thanks RBob .. So u think I should divide the entire table by 1.15 or just the values over 85 ? And my bpc is 119 right now should I leave it for now and see what it does after dividing and a few Learns ?

Edit: and about the bpc values .. So the bpc vs. vac ebl utility is pretty much just for a reference point to get u started tuning and to get a base close to what u need for modifications to the factory fueling system an can be modified to what ur specific application needs correct ? .. What I'm sayin is its not a concrete value it can b changed as needed . Thanks Nate

 

Yes on the BPC table values. I think of the BPC values as a centering device for the VE tables.

RBob.

 

Bob,

What would you think of increasing the Inj. Bias to achieve a lowering of the VE values?

 

Not a good idea, the injector bias (or offset) should be set to match the injector opening time. It won't really affect the higher values of the VE table as it is a small adjustment compared to the injector PW at high loads.

RBob.

 

RBob has been helping me a lot, but I'm always open to suggestions. Anyone want to look at my data logs and give me a bit of advice? PM me and I'll email them.

I got my engine to idle pretty decent and the VE learns with the NB are +/- 3 in most of the areas I've tuned (started out 10-12 pretty much everywhere). It doesn't transition very well and the loaded throttle response is pretty terrible and it coughs out the intake sometimes. Strangely, even though I'm running 30 psi of fuel pressure and a BPC of 98, I didn't lean out the AE at all, and it still seems like it's lean when AE is needed. Thoughts?

 

I just discovered a bunch of 100% numbers in my VE tables. I'd set my BPC with the utility but mistakenly used the wrong injector size! With 55 lb/hr injectors and ~30 psi, I should have set the BPC at 109. This explains surging engine, white plugs, and coughing out the intake--static injectors means no more fuel for AE!

I guess another day of VE learns with the BPC set correctly ought to get me much closer.

Garbage in, garbage out!

 

Ok I got my closed loop problem fixed with a heated O2 sensor .. Headers weren't allowing the sensor to heat up enough .. But anyway .. Anyone know anythin about the diagnostics display the whole this is red on the o2 graph .. What is it supposed to look like and what do the red and black vertical bars mean ?

 

100% VE isn't static injectors, 100% duty cycle (DC%) is.

RBob.

 

Can you post a screen grab of it? The red line is the NB O2, if there is a WB selected then the magenta line is for the WB AFR.

They slowly move across the display showing a graph of what each is reporting. Milli-volts for the NB, and AFR for the WB.

RBob.

 

Here the pic RBob .. It ain't solid red like that all the time if I switch displays from wud back to diag it will just have a few red or black vertical bars then it will go back to this

 

Something wrong with either the O/S or the laptop hardware. You can see the actual trace of the NB O2 within that mess.

RBob.

 

Well I've tried 2 diff o2 sensors and same thing .. And I actually bought this laptop brand new just for tuning its an asus with windows 8 .. And I think I know a good bit about the mechanicals of cars for my age but I don't really know much about computers :-/ .. Another ? .. Is the o2 trace supposed to vary that much ? I know when in open loop it stays between 400-500

 

Off-hand guess ( first thing that comes to mind ) wrong video driver, or driver/hardware mismatch.

 

Sorry but I have no idea what that means lol

 

It isn't the ECM/engine hardware. Look closely at the screen shot you posted and you can see an actual trace. The vertical red bars are an anomaly. I wonder if Microsoft changed something in WIN8 that is causing it.

See the screen shot for what an O2 trace looks like in closed loop. That isn't the best it can be as the O2 sensor is a little lazy at this point (old). The proportional gains force the AFR to oscillate.

RBob.

 

The screen shot Rbob posted is much closer to what you should be seeing.
All the red "bars" in your display suggest that your computer is using the wrong device driver for that screen.
If you just bought it, as you indicate, I'd take it back to where you bought it, and ask their tech, telling him/her that I suspect a device driver mismatch.
Failing that, find a 12 year old. They seem to know much, much more about configuring computers than we do.

Sorry, almost forgot.
What it means, is that internally your computer has a certain chipset that works the actual screen display, and that chipset requires a software driver to talk to it correctly in language that it understands.
If you have a, say, Matrox610 chipset, but are using a Matrox 620 driver, you could see this.
Kinda sorta like a New Yorker talking to a Texan. They both speak english, but the accents sometimes cause misunderstandings.

 

Hello all, I have a few questions about supercharging. I made a thread for more details to not post a huge post here.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...c-install.html

Basically its a 355 w/ 454 tbi, cam, and heads, 80lb injectors at 18 psi (static), EBL and TT1 WB02 and recently installed vortech V2 supercharger.
Still not completely done so I have not been able to start it yet but getting ready for it.

With my FP currently at 18psi statically, would now be a good idea to now run a vacuum line from my aeromotive FRP to make it boost referenced? If I should, how would I go about adjusting my BPC VAC and BOOST values for this as they are currently all set to 113 all the way through.

Another thing that ties into this vacuum question is that I know its recommended to run a 2 bar map so I'm going to be installing one. I know this will also create more modification to these tables. Just not sure where to really start with all of this.

In regards to the 2 bar MAP install would it be ok to simply purchase one, remove the 1bar and replace it or is there any wiring I need to do to get it to work with the EBL?

What will the 2 bar map really tell me? How much boost I'm making correct?

Additionally, now that I'll be supercharged, I am going to want to make it run a bit richer, I've read and heard that 11.5-12.5 is about where it needs to be. Can I simply change my open loop "AFR vs RPM and MAP" values to reflect this AFR and do a few WB learns to get it there?

 

OK, on the second cup of coffee... time to type...

Looks good. You likely need to bump up the fuel pressure to feed the additional HP.

Yes, reference the FPR vacuum/boost port to the intake manifold plenum. This will provide for lower fuel pressure at lower loads. This make it easier to tune and provides better drive-ability.

Then once in boost the fuel pressure will rise 1:1 with boost.

For the BPC tables, set up this table as vacuum referenced (check the VacRef box in the utility program):

BPC - BPC vs VAC

Set up this table as non-vacuum referenced (un-check the VacRef box in the utility program):

BST - BPC vs Boost (2-Bar)

The reason for this is that when not in boost the fuel pressure and thus the injector flow rate will vary in accordance to intake manifold vacuum.

Then once in boost, although the fuel pressure will increase with boost by 1:1. the outlet of the injectors is subject to that same boost pressure. So the injector flow rate won't be changing.

For the fuel pressure value in the EBL Utility program use the pressure with the vacuum line off. Basically what could be called the base fuel pressure.

Yes, use a 2-bar MAP. Other then the connector keying it is a direct replacement. Can either snap off the keys in the 2-bar MAP connector, or cut new key slots in the stock connector.

Be sure to secure the vacuum/boost lines for both the FPR and the MAP sensor. Use super glue or ty-wraps or such. If a line blows off during boost you can lose the engine.

Once the 2-bar MAP is in place set the option flag for it:

Option Word 2 - Bit 3 - 2-Bar

No wiring changes, just the connector keying.

It will make the ECM boost aware. So that the injector PW calculation is correct along with being able to reduce the spark advance and manipulate the fueling.

Don't mess with that table: "AFR vs RPM & VAC"

Use this table to change the injector PW when in boost:

BST - Boost PW Multiplier % (2-Bar)

You can add or subtract from the injector PW via that table. It will take some time to dial it in, just need to work up into the table via RPM & boost.

The ECM will use the PE AFR, and the VE% at 100 KPa, then adjust the PW by the percentage of the boost multiplier table.

Then to reduce the SA use this table:

BST - Boost Spark Retard (2-Bar)

The other thing to change in the amount of TPS% to enter PE mode. This table:

PE - TPS% Enable Threshold

Change it so that PE mode is entered previous to boost coming in. Will need to live with data logs for a while working on the above tables. The SA retard table can be set up easily to begin with. But the TPS% for PE and the PW multiplier table will need to be tweaked from actual data.

RBob.

 

Another item, the IAT sensor. It is best if the IAT sensor is located such that it reads the air temperature going into the TB unit. That is post S/C'er.

RBob.

 

See the only reason I don't think it's the computer like the other guy said is cause I've seen nothing else wrong with the computer anywhere except that diagnostics screen .. Which makes me think it is something with the compatibility between the ebl and windows 8 .. But if u think otherwise RBOB then I guess I will take it back to bestbuy and have a tech look at it

 

I was wondering if anyone here has an aggressive spark table for a LO3 that I could copy that works well .. And do y'all suggest 87 octane with no ethanol or 93 octane with 10% ethanol ? .. I always use one of the two

 

IIRC, the analysis graphing uses the same O/S routines that the O2 sensor graph does. Go to the analysis display and view a log. Double click on any line to bring up the graph. As you pan/scroll through the data what happens on the graph?

Just wondering if that works OK or not.

RBob.

 

The analysis graph looks good to me .. Nothing abnormal

 

I have a laptop with windows 8 and the EBL software runs perfectly fine. Lets try a few things.

1. Try changing the screen resolution on your PC. This is easy, simply right click the middle of nowhere on your desktop/screensaver and click on the resolution/personalize option, change it to one below its current value. See if you notice any change.

2. Run the WUD exe in compatibility mode, before double clicking on the shortcut to open the whats up display, right click on it instead, then you should see an option to run in compatibility mode, you can run it as if you were on winXP or a 32bit version/64bit version.

3. Make sure you are not running the WUD software from a zip folder. Running programs straight from zip/rar folders is never a good idea. So if it is stored in a zip/rar folder, extract it.

4. See if BobR can send you another version of the EBL whats up display software, may simply be a corrupt WUD exe. I would send you a copy myself but not my software.

5. It may be the graphics card driver which to me makes a lot of sense but then it doesnt since you just bought the PC. Its easy to ensure you have the correct display card drivers by simply looking them up on Asus's website via the make/model of your laptop and the OS (Win8 64bit or Win8 32bit) more and likely, if you just bought it, you have 64 bit.

Let me know if none of this helps or if you need help with any of it.

 

Along with that, you can completely uninstall the display drivers. Windows 8 has the default plug and play driver that can run your screen, wont be the best resolution but it will at least tell you if there's a problem with your current display drivers running the Whats up display.

Try playing a game with some ok graphics as well. This will make sure you don't have problems with other GPU utilization programs.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/24604...n_windows.html

 

Thanks for all the info RBob.

Just another question or two.

I remember when I first started my initial tune few years ago, I started with 24psi FP which was making the injectors really staticy and somewhat loud. I never bothered vacuum referencing, instead, I just brought it down to 18psi per Brian H's suggestion.

If I set the base pressure to say 23-24 psi and hook up the vacuum line, would the vacuum reference bring it down to something more reasonable under low loads and back up under higher loads/boost?

Lastly, I completely forgot about the IAT sensor till I took the air cleaner off to install the bonnet, any suggestions on how to install this without leaking?...

Thanks again!

 

If you don't mind drilling and tapping the bonnet, there are IAT sensors with NPT threads. Applications are the 2.8l & 3.1l MPFI F-bodys. That is '86 - '92 MY.

The vacuum reference will bring the fuel pressure down by about half of the vacuum. So if the engine idles at 18" of vacuum that will lower the fuel pressure by about 9 psi.

RBob.

 

Thanks for the info man .. I tried the first three with no help .. And it wasn't in a zipped folder .. And yeah I just bought this thing brand new at best buy but that is the only problem I've seen anywhere .. And yes it is the 64 bit version .. So I guess I'll be looking into the driver or getting another version from RBob

 

Run your PC in safe mode. Just to see if that works, it should use basic drivers.

 

How do I do that ?

 

Hit the f8 key before the windows splash screen comes up, then select safe mode.

 

Thanks! I bought the IAT made for a 89 Turbo TransAM. Threaded the bonnet using 3/8ths NPT and then it fit right in perfectly!

Just waiting on my crank pulley which seems to be taking forever... Almost there.

 

Now that I look into it, its a bit more steps in windows 8 than simply hitting the f8 key like before.

I dont know how great you are with PC's but its still pretty simple just takes a few more steps than before.

Search "windows 8 safe mode" in google and you'll get tons of How To's
There's also a youtube video in the search results. If you need help with the process, let me know.

 

Would adding an IAT to the air filter housing on TBI help with fuel trims? My '87 2.8 v6 Fiero has one, thought it would be better than relying on the CTS to calculate fuel reuirements.

 

Yes, it does help.

RBob.

 

Hey guys .. I broke down and bought me a new electric in cab FP gauge the other day n finally got it hooked up yesterday .. So I've been using a crappy Lil cheapo under hood gauge from autozone that was reading about 16 psi and my new gauge was reading 12.5 do I bumped fp up to 17 .. Now my ? Is .. I noticed my FP drops about 2 psi under load , should I compensate for this somehow ? like set idle FP to 18 psi so that my BPC tables are correct at 16 PSI under load ?

 

Sleeper, sometimes... when the regulators get heat (from being under the hood near the engine) this causes them to read higher than the true value (figured this out the hard way chasing my FP back in fourth with a bunch of WTF moments). I'm thinking maybe your new regulator is correct and you could have been reading a false value on your old one? That would seem to explain your higher than normal VE values. I would say the drop in PSI is normal but whether or not you should compensate for it is a good question. Lets wait and see what other input you get from the pros.

 

If you have already done learns in the areas the pressure drops and it reads accurate I would leave it be. BPC is essentially that, a "base", and the EBL goes off that and other factors (primarily the VE table if it's done learns in that area) to determine optimum air/fuel. If you do a partial change the BPC (aka only in the area your fuel pressure drops) after doing learns for the old BPC, you'll have to do more learns to keep a proper a/f ratio.

 

Being one of the highest tech guys you could ever meet, I'd trust the "crappy lil cheepo" over the electronic, AFTER comparing it with a known accurate mechanical gauge in the region of intended use, BUT....

The actual number ( absolute pressure ) is less important than ( as Doober mentions ) the VE table in that region. If your duty cycles on the injectors are reasonable, then the actual FP is totally irrelevant, as long as you're not using it for calculations. If you are needing an accurate number for calculations, ( injector flow rates and such ) which you're not getting from learns, then I'd "calibrate" whatever gauge you prefer against a known accurate mechanical, and treat the inaccurate gauge as an arbitrary scale.

But, that's me.

Remember, it's not about making a gauge happy, or even you, it's about making the engine happy !

 

1991... Are you using a VAFPR? If so I set mine key on engine off. My wife does the key on while I monitor/watch gauge since the FP turns off after it is up to pressure. With engine running it pulls the pressure down with vac.

 

[QUOTE=Cflick;5463582]Being one of the highest tech guys you could ever meet, I'd trust the "crappy lil cheepo" over the electronic, AFTER comparing it with a known accurate mechanical gauge in the region of intended use, BUT....

The actual number ( absolute pressure ) is less important than ( as Doober mentions ) the VE table in that region. If your duty cycles on the injectors are reasonable, then the actual FP is totally irrelevant, as long as you're not using it for calculations. If you are needing an accurate number for calculations, ( injector flow rates and such ) which you're not getting from learns, then I'd "calibrate" whatever gauge you prefer against a known accurate mechanical, and treat the inaccurate gauge as an

So u would trust a 2 year old 10$ mechanical gauge over the 220$ electric auto meter gauge I just bought ? The new gauge is in the car not under the hood so I don't have to let someone crank it while I watch the gauge either ... And the reason I think the new gauge is closer to correct is that the old
One was reading 16 psi steady and didn't drop under load and according to my datalogs I was getting 140% DC in brief random places under heavy load which should not have happened with my minor bolt ons at 16psi so the new reading of 12 psi seemed More accurate to the information given by the ebl .. Which I'm new to this tuning stuff and Ill be the first to admit I still don't have a clue what I'm doing half the time .. But it does "Seem" to b running much better after settin FP with the new gauge ... And no I'm not using a VRFPR .. Thanks for any help guys

 

And what I'm saying about the psi drop is if say I'm at idle watching the gauge after warm up n all that good stuff if I Stab the go pedal to the floor and quickly release my psi Drops about 2 psi and goes back up .. Like I said " under load" it drops

 

I meant no slight.
I'd trust the one I'd compared to a known accurate gauge across the expected working range, whichever it was, and found it close enough for what I'm doing with it. What I'd paid would be irrelevant, except that if I found the $220 inaccurate, I'd have words with whomever I bought it from.

OK, that does tend to suggest that your new gauge has better response, a plus in its favor already.

None of us was born in a tune shop, especially me !
Based on the symptoms as you describe them, you're doing the right thing. Question what ya got, until proven right, or wrong, and go from there.

Since a mechanical pressure gauge doesn't care what it's reading, pressure is pressure, I've been known to put a tire gauge on a fuel rail, and found the problem with it. I've been known to take the pressure gauge off the well, and plumb it to an oil pressure port. Works fine.
I said the cheepo only because there's less compulsion to believe it based on money spent, rather than on known calibration. Neither is any good until it's been checked, IMHO, and either can be "best" after it's been checked.
I'll also toss in that if you're going to adjust BPC ( or VE table ) based on the new pressure, make sure you use the same gauge for both before and after readings. Even if it's not absolutely correct, the ratio of change will still be valid, provided you use the same gauge and it's not sticking.

 

Here my new gauge cluster with the FP I been talking about in the middle the bottom is Vacuum .. I flipping love it ! ... And I know I know these NB AF gauges are just a pointless flashing light that serves no real useful info .. BUT I just needed another cheap gauge to fill the third hole and it was only 30$

 

Hey guys .. Is they anyone here more experienced than me (anyone lol) than can Mabey take a look at a short datalog and and poin me in the direction of some things that may need to be change and why ? Thanks .. Nate