I already planned to, but money won't allow right now.

 

Just so happens I must have changed the MTX-l settings and forgot to add the change in my notes! Works fine now. thx


I do have another question regarding the SA logic.


I am trying to find out why and where I am getting 3d+/- advance over my main SA table.
I dont quite understand what the SA tables do, which tables add, and which tables subtract.
In particular the relationship between "Coolant Comp Spark Advance" and "IAT/CTS compensation" tables.

My Sa tables are unchanged from the stock EBL supplied EBL_P4_3005.BIN, with the exception of the two main tables.

Can someone clarify this for me?

 

Short answer:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=317768

RBob.

 

Perfect short answer thx

 

Concerning AFRs at cranking/startup, how do you go about adjusting these? The WBO2 is likely not reading at that time (my ZT2 takes about 10-15 secs of "sensor warm up" even if i go through the warm up procedure at key-on eng-off prior to cranking). So what measure do you use? I get quite some smoke at start-up, although it's more a tan-ish color than anything real white or blue. Could it be too rich?
Also for the cranking/starting duration from cold.. I was guessing a big factor here would be the oil pressure switch, no?

And: how do you distinguish between prime and cranking PWs, and why is there a crank AFR and a crank PW table

Excel Analysis: Which columns have a multiplier factor, or what are the units other than the obvious? Especially the AE stuff..

Thanks!

 

As long as the fuel pump relay works correctly the oil pressure switch doesn't have anything to do with the crank to start time.

Note that during cranking the 400 RPM row of the VE table is in use. Which MAP column is dependent upon MAP during cranking.

The prime PW only occurs for the first two DRPs (TBI). One prime pulse for each injector.

The cranking PW multiplier is used to reduce the cranking PW as the RPM increases. This helps prevent flooding and supplies a smooth transition to the running PW.

If you think that there is too much fuel during cranking then increase the cranking AFR by a 1/2 point at a time. Once the engine no longer wants to start back it up a bit.

RBob.

 

I don't get the connection between the crank PW and crank AFR.. for my understanding, there's either a commanded AFR, or a PW.. not both? the commanded AFR should be reached by the calculated PW, no?

For the prime PW, is that also the priming PW used when switching on the ignition?

Get what you said on the oil pressure switch. So what is it that really makes a difference between starting duration comparing cold vs. warm engine? Thought it'd be the oil pressure...

 

I looked at the Crank PW Mult. It is RPM sensitive. It appears at the initial begin of crank, RPM is low say 100-300 RPMs so it gets the full PW. As the crank speed increases over 300 or so RPMs, the PW is reduced up to full crank RPM.

The crank A/F is based upon coolant temp. So A/F is richer at low coolant temps.

 

Aah gotcha.. after looking at it again I think I was mixing up the Crank Prime PW (first two DRPs only) and the Crank PW Multi (decaying over RPM)... Thanks for pointing it out once again tho

So the fueling term used for cranking is basically the Crank AFR (depending on CTS) and the Crank PW Multiplier (depending on RPM according to that table), but it also uses the 400 RPM row of the VE table as RBob pointed out.. guessing to make an assumption to reach that commanded AFR (cmd_afr = crank_afr * crank_pw_mult) right?

Also since the Crank PW Mult table says RPM%.. how much is 100% RPM ( = engine running.. 400?), I couldn't find any info on that one.

Cranking up seems a bit faster now, with a lot less smoke.

Two more questions though:
And:
Given cold starts at 20-40°C CTS, would you go about increasing all AFR cells by that value while you're doing that? Or maybe use multiply by 0.95 or something like that..

 

[QUOTEhow much is 100% RPM ( = engine running.. 400?)][/QUOTE]

I would say it is the RPM capable of your starter with fiully charged battery.
I never paid much attention maybe 600 rpms?

I might just enrichen the ones I feel need more fuel. If you are cranking at 0d C and it needs more fuel I might just do those above and below in table. If you have sufficent choke at 20dC why add more? Pretty much need top take notes are temps decrease this fall. I have a thread that was not responded to for small issue of engine not coming up to fast idle on cold start 60dF. I bet I need more "time on" for choke, aka decay.

 

Well for the starter RPM you referred to.. there's a lot of variables that would be different for every engine set up without the ECM knowing (starter power, starter gearing, battery voltage, engine compression ratio, engine internal friction, etc...) so I would think it's just a RPM you set, or a preset RPM (in the code?) not really dependent on what your starter can do.. But I'm sure a certain Mr. R. can enlighten us here

For the cranking AFRs, my problem is I hardly ever cold start it at any other temperatures than CTS 20-40° .. Maybe a few times a year, when moving it around the garage or stuff like that. So I don't really feel for playing around here, which is why I was wondering if there was a way to change the whole table while really only experimenting and evaluating with one or two cells, which is why i mentioned the multiply function. Could reduce all AFRs by say 5% or whatever to keep the curve/slope similar. Just a thought tho.

 

Battery voltage is compensated for. If the starter spins faster like is newer/aftermarket or more engine friction I think the RPM table is for that. Spool up of engine is not linear. So 100-300 rpms may take longer than 300-600 RPM. Again the RPM may account for that. The General has it all covered.

 

Sure thing, but all I'm saying is that table does not have a reference to the capabilities of the installed starter. IOW, let's say I take the big POS starter we have and it spins my motor till 400 @12V. Fitting a new high power LT4 gear reduction starter might spin it to 600 no problem. How does the ECM know what is 100% RPM for that Crank PW Mult table? There's gotta be some set value, or a set of parameters to be met, where the ECM transitions from 'cranking' to 'running' state.

 

Actually I am not sure how the crank PW Mult works. Only conjecture on my part.

However it was said that out ECU has ability to compensate for wear of engine components. In part? I beleive the calibration is specific for stock L03 automatic for EBL.bin.

If the replacement starter spins to higher RPM or faster to its peak not sure how to move values. I note table is % of RPM not RPM specific. Maybe that explains compensation?

 

The engine running RPM is a calibration parameter. And is one of those that is not in the ECU/XDF file. Doesn't really need to be.

It is 400 RPM for an 8-cylinder, and 533 RPM for a 6 cylinder engine.

The crank PW multiplier axis is based on a percentage of those RPM values. So the 75% row is at 300 RPM on an 8 cylinder engine.

For some time now the WUD shows the cranking RPM of the engine. Makes it easy to see the RPM during this time.

RBob.

 

Got my new P4 Flash today. Wired it up and I am going to install it tomorrow.
I have two initial questions.
1. I have a Zeitronix. Can I use a unused pin on the ECM to run the analog output from the WB to the 0 pin on the ADC by running a jumper to it? This
will make it easier to take the ECM in and out.
2. Any suggestion for a bin to start with? Concernned about timing table.
ht383 Vortec heads
NV4500 trans
very heavy land cruiser.
Thank Dave

 

Thanks for clearing that up RBob.

Any thoughts from your side concerning the procedure to adjust cranking AFRs when you can just experiment with two or so cells and dont wanna mess the rest up? Might be relatively easy with a close to stock engine, but just trying to understand the approach necessary here.

That anywhere close to what is going on?

 

I really think this deserves its own post:

I might have found a solution, although I still have to try it out - my company's laptop is being rather restrictive so I need to request admin rights to change the boot.ini accordingly.

If you don't want to have your mouse pointer dart wildly about your screen because Windows thinks your EBL on the RS232-USB Converter is a "Serial Ballpoint Mouse Device", take a look here for the /fastdetect option. As said I still have to try myself but sounds promising!
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/833721/en-us

edit: Since my boot.ini already had the /fastdetect option on it i guess it didn't work. I'm gonna report back once i find a solution that stops this mouse pointer insanity when plugging the EBL USB every now and then

 

This included calibration has the SA tables for the Vortec heads:

EBL_P4_3000.BIN: 5.7l Vortec head main & extended SA Tables

They are from a truck calibration.

Appears that there are three pins open for use: C2, E1 & E2

With this being a retro-fit, a couple of notes:

Do not ground the case locally, it is already grounded via the EFI harness.
Do rubber mount the ECM to reduce vibration.
Be sure to leave some space around the ECM for cooling air to flow.

RBob.

 

Why change areas where the cranking to run fueling is OK?

The Crank PW Multiplier acts on the injector PW, not the AFR:

final_crank_pw = calculated_crank_pw * crank_pw_mult

RBob.

 

Try adding this option and see if it works:

/NoSerialMice

RBob.

 

I was assuming that the same would be true for say the -20°C cell as is true for the 20-40° cells which I have been playing with now. The difference being, I can evaluate the 20-40° cells while I wont really be able to do that on some of the others. The reason I was changing the 20°-40° cells was to reduce rich smoke on startup, but yeah I see your point that it's not absolutely necessary to change rarely used cells unless it's not starting or something..

Thanks. So I'm guessing the calculated_crank_pw is compiled by the standard PW calculation incorporating the desired cranking AFR according to that table, and the 400 RPM VE row etc...

Yep, that's gonna be my next try, then registry key (sermouse service) and last chance is driver (.inf) modifications

 

OK, kicked the laptop and have it ignoring the serial input and confusing it for a serial mouse. I needed to make two easy changes, one to the boot.ini file and one in the Device Manager.

I'm not sure if the boot.ini file change is required or not as I didn't test without this change.

In the boot.ini file add the /NoSerialMice right after the /fastdetect option, no spaces between them:

With that option set the serial stream was sometimes, but not always, confused for a serial mouse. Why it wasn't a solid yes/no I don't know. Note that to test this need to do a physical reboot, not a restart as a restart doesn't use the boot.ini file.

The other change is made once the serial stream was mistaken for a serial mouse. Once the cursor is going nuts unplug the serial plug from the laptop. You should now be able to use the standard mouse and log in.

Go to the Device Manager and open the "Mice and other pointing devices" selection. The serial ballpoint mouse will be shown. Right click on it and open the Properties dialog.

At the bottom of the dialog under "Device usage" select the disable option. Click OK and so on.

Plug the serial connector back in and reboot (power down then back up) the laptop.

At this time the serial mouse should not present itself, and the WUD should be able to open that COM port for itself.

RBob.

P.S. this was done on a laptop running XP Pro.

 

After a few days with my new EBL P4 flash i seem to have a differance between my zeitronic WB software and WUD interpretation of the zeitronic WB. I have tried all 3 Zietronic settings in WUD but the same error seems to persist.
At and around 14.7 they are closer than when there further fron stoich.
Has anyone experienced this?
The zr-2 brown wire is going to grd on the ADC EBL strip and the white wire is going to 0.

 

The brown wire shouldn't be connected to the EBL board. That is a ground reference for a boost sensor when used. It should be disconnected from the EBL Board.

With the white wire connected to the EBL board use this ADC Device entry in the WUD:

Zeitronix WB (0V=9.6:1 - 5V=19.6:1)

The ZT-2 ground (black) needs to go to the engine block.

If there is a small offset this can be compensated for by creating a User Device. Offset the range to compensate for the offset between the gauge and the WUD.

RBob.

 

Thanks Bob Setting up the user device solved the WB alignment problem.
The EBL flash tuning is going great.
There are two areas I am still working on. First a slightly higher idle after I start the engine until I tap the throttle.
The other is a jerky hesitation when I let out the clutch.
Thanks again for all the help and the brilliant ECM.
Dave

 

For the high throttle it can be a couple of different things. Although it is likely sticking which is the real issue. To work around it see if the IAC steps goes to zero. If so can close down the blades a little so there is more IAC control.

If the IAC isn't moving due to the TPS% being high enough to exit idle mode. Increase the TPS% required for idle mode.

The settings in this table:

Idle - TPS% Closed Throttle

Be sure that the Upper is greater then the Lower value.

As for the jerky hesitation when I let out the clutch, this may be a mechanical issue with the clutch itself. Some clutches are just that way. Once they warm up many times they smooth out.

Get a data log of this doing it many times in a row. Hit an industrial park on off hours and get at least a dozen instances of it occurring. Then sit down and look at the log dumps, graphing and play backs.

See what the SA is doing, IAC movement, even fueling.

RBob.

 

So I am looking at the data from my most recent track outing and noticed some weirdness in the 1/4 graph. Other than a little AE work that I have to do, does anyone have an idea on what is causing my AFR to jump around so much or is that normal? For fuel I have the following:

TPI pump
VRFPR pressure is set to 18 PSI @ WOT and idles at 12 PSI
80 pound 5235231 injectors
Weiand Speed Warrior dual plane with square bore to TBI adapter

I can provide any other details as needed.

 

Since TBI is a wet system when you lift off the gas it pulls(vacuum) the fuel off the runners causing enrichment. On the gas releases the AE causing enrichment.

there may be a smoothing averaging factor for the WB in that WU graph. My Innovate allows smoothing for the pillar gauge so as to not be too erratic and same in the Innovate graphing.

 

Maybe I should be more specific. I am talking about the AFR jumping around when the TPS is 100%. Ideally I would expect to see a flat horizontal line for the AFR showing the commanded PE AFR once the AE is over with. Instead the AFR is moving all over place. If you look at the 3rd gear pull, once the initial over richness from the AE is gone, the AFR varies from 12 to 14.

 

I see your point. I would expect it to be less erratic as well. If we assume the WB is not having issues A/F could in fact be changing. Possible the DC is over 85%??? Injectors static? I would up FP 5 lbs and see how it responds.

 

The log of the run is attached in my original post. Outside of the over rich AE the DC doesn't really get over 80%. I saw a few cells with like 82 or 83, but it doesn't happen consistently or often. I could probably log the fuel pressure as well since I have an electrical sender and gauge, but at WOT its gonna be at 18 PSI and stay there from my observations.

I believe my WB to be working correctly. I have it hooked up to a gauge as well as the EBL and never notice any odd behavior from it.

 

Is the WB grounded well?

 

Yes. I have a ground for it running to the back of the pass side cylinder head. I also solder and heat shrink my connections where I can.

 

How far down the pipe is the sensor ? ( which pipe ? )

 

Its in the Y pipe a little forward of the cat.

 

Hey there
I have a adjustable fuel pressure regulator that adj with a screw in the end. I have backed the screw all the way out but my pressure is still 44lb, my duty cycle is 3% at idle at sea level. this seems to low of DC% for a smooth idle?
thx dave

 

trona, is that TBI or TPI system? 44 psi is way too much for a TBI system imho, so either the spring in your AFPR is way too stiff or your return line to the tank is blocked/kinked/choked in some other way. or your (aftermarket) fuel pump just pumps out an awful lot of too much fuel, but i doubt that

 

The system is a TPI so I think stock pressure is 42lb but I am running 24lb injectors.

 

well a pressure is rated in pounds per square inch (psi) and a flow rated in pounds per hour (lb/hr, pph, ...), so that's two differend "lb" your using there
42 psi sounds about right though, 44 is not too far off. I'd adjust the BPC accordingly (use provided excel spreadsheet or tool to come up with that) and call it a day I guess.

 

My question centers around the duty cycle being too low at ide or low map for the EBL to adjust.
My understanding that BPW will not change the DC%
But lower fuel pressure might. This my also help the AFR cycling that I get when it goes in and out of S/F
Thx, Dave

 

An update
Things are going well with my new EBL. I replaced the top on my adj fuel reg. I was able to get the pressure down to about 37 psi. The DC at idle raised to about 3-4% now.
The truck with a day of VE learns runs much better.
Unfortunately my ZR-2 is non linear only and (according to Zeitronix) i would have to plot the 0 to 5 volts to every AFR step in WUD. I may take the $200.00 hit and upgrade it.

 

It's a balancing act.
For me, a bit of a rough rolling idle is more desirable than losing control of fueling at high RPM under load, so I tuned fuel pressure to produce about 85% duty cycle at the highest anticipated RPM and wide open throttle, and accept the 1-2% at idle.

 

The non-linear Zeitronix is supported in the WUD. As long as the output voltage versus AFR is the same as the ZT-2, use the "Zeitronix Non-Linear" selection in the Preferences ADC Channels dialog. Be sure to depress the Preferred WB button for that channel.

RBob.

 

Not in my experience, like C flick I see 1% at Idle, and I have a butter smooth idle.
If you are trying to cure a rough idle and not just being pessimistic look elsewhere.

 

One must consider all the facts.
In my case, the engine is much smoother at idle than the cam manufacturer says it will be.
It's also much smoother than before EFI, when it had a carb and mechanical dist.

 

Thanks to last weeks discussion, I've finally fixed my hard cold start issues, but now since the air temp is getting colder, I've been seeing ~10* extra spark on cold start, which is causing knock counts at idle before it warms up. All relevant tables are the same as the default bin.

Can you explain how the choke SA works?

I'm seeing a Choke SA decay delay scalar, and tables for startup choke decay delay, and choke SA decay multiplier. I can't quite wrap my head around how they all tie together.

Either I can just decrease the choke SA, or make it decay much faster initially...

 

I need some help understanding injector flow rate. After doing my the calculations my 24 lb injectors at a given HP I set that the flow to 25#. The consequence of this was I needed to pull nearly 10 points uniformly out of my VE tables from what a EBL-p4_3000.bin. I can do this but being this far off with a bigger motor (383) makes me wonder how out of whack the whole BIN will be like AE and PE. Is there a way to change the BPW such that the VE changes are less dramatic.

 

The choke SA decays out within a few minutes on a cold engine. Within seconds on a hot engine. There is also the SA compensation versus CTS & VAC. This is always in affect using the current CTS & VAC.

Note that it has a bias value so that table can both add or subtract SA.

Choke SA: look up the choke SA value for the given CTS and retain this value. This is a single look-up at engine start up. After a delay (Startup Choke Decay Delay), start decaying out the SA (Choke SA Decay Mult) on regular intervals (Choke SA Decay Delay).

A larger decay multiplier and/or a longer decay delay, and the added choke SA stays around longer.

RBob.

 

The injectors may be flowing more then expected. Can change the injector flow rate to center the VE table. AE is PW based, and is not affected by the injector flow constant.

PE uses the VE table, but changes the commanded AFR so that it is richer.

RBob.