Thanks
I knew I needed something with the fuel supply because of the dc% but haven't done anything yet. Do you think just the injectors from a 350 would be enough?

Why would you want to turn off the ASYNC. I thought that help prevent from stalls when decelerating. Or is that what is causing a backfire every now and then when decelerating from high rpm?

 

Kinda makes me wonder... what version is the WUD at now? I have 2.2e. I had a feeling the BPC table was used for VRFPR, just wanted to be sure. I still need to find out what kinda vacuum I'm pullin'.

 

The 61#/hr 350 injectors will flow about 10% more then the 305 injectors. Likely not enough to get the DC% at/under 85%.

Async injection for short PW's doesn't work all that well. And once the flow has been increased it gets worse. If you get bored some day try this: on a warm engine, in park or neutral, press on the go-pedal enough to bring the RPM up a bit, around 1200, then quickly release the pedal. I've had engines stall as it went into async injection mode.

RBob.

 

Current version is 3.0d, we bumped up from 2.x to 3.x version number as most changes were for the EBL SFI-6 Flash system.

Can see all of the version information along with what is the latest on our website. Click the Update button.

For vacuum, the Analysis dump shows the manifold vacuum. It is calculated by subtracting the current MAP from the current barometric pressure reading. Although it is shown in KPa, not inches.

RBob.

 

I have a turbo Buick, gonna be running the EBL SFI-6. It is a Buick G-body wagon. I had my Malibu Wagon, with a EBL Gen one. Most of malibu racing was into carbs, same for g-body.org. Except for Doober and a handful of others. TB doesn't seen to want to embrace it. They love the translater and chips. Point is, this board has had a DIY FI tuning section for years, well know, and great people to support you if you have a problem.

I prefer coming here.

 

I ran completely in Asynch for the longest with a single plane on my 350. Never had an issue, however I was not transitioning in and out of it, simply running in it to start with. TBI V6 engines ran completely in Asynch due to their firing orders.

 

I know that feeling as well. My brother and I are working on a 1980 L82 corvette and my 1968 Ford Galaxy. Most are into carbs, but we want to be able to run in any weather and run well. My 312 that first ran in my van and made its way through 2 other vehicles is now in the Vette. It is running a holley on a victor jr intake and may end up with TBI or the old TPI unit from my G-van.

My Galaxy is getting a GM fuel injection system on the 390 FE that I am boring/stroking to 445 CID with aluminum heads. Probably end up with dual small block TBI units with an EBL and a dual plate nitrous setup.

 

Ok, I'll send you an email about the WUD update.

 

Update has been sent, your work email server blocks my IP address. My replies bounce back.

RBob.

 

My daughter emailed you last night at dynamic. I sent email to dynamic this AM explaining. Yes my Company blocks that sort of thing. Please send to her. I do not have internet access at my residence.

 

I'm really starting to wonder about the mpg calculation... I don't have the money to run through 2 full tanks of gas, otherwise I would be able to figure it out that way. Considering there is only the flow constant in the BIN, would I use the flow rate at maximum psi? Minimum? Average? From my estimate it's only a couple mpg difference, but it'd be nice to know for sure.

 

SFI-6 was recently introduced to the Buick guys, so it's going to take some time for them to get their feet wet with it. For the past few years, people have been running Bob Bailey chips, Eric Marshall chips, and now they are exploring FAST/XFI, but the prices for those units are ridiculous. Speaking of Eric Marshall, although provides tech their religiously on the Turbo Buick boards, he has his own technical forum on his Turbo Tweak website. His own forum doesn't stop him from being on TurboBuick(s) every single day though, and I doubt a forum on DynamicEFI would stop Bob from coming here. As a member over there, you should know that Dusty, Bison and a lot of the others don't fool around, they dive in head first with everything, and provide for real racing performance, proper testing and feedback...

Once SFI-6 is tested for the street and strip, those guys will embrace it, but not too many people know about it yet. I already encouraged Bob to join one of our local Grand National groups known as MAGNA (Mid Atlantic Grand National Association), with members ranging from Steve Kaminski, Paul Miller and Jim Dunn, and these are very well known engine builders and tuners in the Turbo Buick community, so when meetings are held, they'll be able to collaborate with one another. Like you, I enjoy coming here too, I am on both websites. However, I can't even get the Buick guys that I know to even visit this website unless it is TTA related, that is just the way it is with the majority of them, their die-hard Buick guys, so a forum over on DynamicEFI would be a good way for everyone to pool their thoughts. Even Doc would agree if he were still with us...

 

How do you lower the idle for just when the engine is warmed up? When I first start the car it idles fine but when it heats up and I drive the idle is at about 1000rpm. I found a table for drive and one for park but what about us with a manual which one do we adjust?

 

Use the In Drive table for stick shift set ups. Make sure that the CTS is reporting correctly and that the IAC isn't going to 0. I don't think any of the supplied calibrations have a desired idle that high.

RBob.

 

Use the injector flow of what it would be with the vacuum line off. You can tweak the MPG injector flow as it is only used for the WUD.

RBob.

 

Ok that's what I thought, and where it's set. Someday I'll have enough extra money to put into gas for an actual calculation lol...

 

Don't always need to fill the tank. It can help for the first and last fill up, but there are others ways. Write down the location of the gas gauge needle and the current miles on the speedometer.

Then every time you put fuel in the truck write down the gallons purchased. Then after say 500 or even a thousand miles go by run the tank down until the needle is at the same spot as when first starting out. Use the gallons pumped and the total miles traveled and you'll have a good idea of the mileage.

Also note that the WUD has an option to continuously keep track of the fuel consumption and miles traveled. So if you connect the laptop & WUD for all trips that data will be accumulated.

RBob.

 

That's why I'd like to get a cheap tablet because it's something I've wanted to do. I've calculated fuel before by keeping track of mileage, but it'll be a while before I'll have enough to fill the tank again.

 

What if the IAC is at 0 when its idling?

 

I don't have any input on IAC, but I'll note that a 9.5:1 383 with a Comp XR264HR (212/218 @.050, 110ºlsa) runs better on 91! I've used it instead of 87 the past few times putting gas in, and it simply runs smoother, and there isn't any more knock like there was previously.

 

Then either the throttle blades are open too far or there is a vacuum leak. Once it is at 0 the ECM can't close it any further to bring the idle speed down.

RBob.

 

I may have missed it, but is the EBL capable of running an LT1? I would like to do port injection on my 383 and I'm just looking at all my options. I need EGR, and I'm not ready to spend $450 just for a Vortec TPI base... I already have a TPI intake but from what I understand the LT intakes flow much better, and the added stroke would make up for any torque loss compared to TPI. I've seen complete LT1s locally on Craigslist for as low as $500-600, which is nice as they would get the rotating assembly from my 383 and I could simply recondition the LT1 assembly for the block I currently have, and it would still make for a great daily driver engine. I thought an LT1 + EBL + DIS would go nicely, just don't know if the EBL is capable

 

How would you run DIS on a V8? Use two 4cylinder DIS units?

 

The cadillac northstar waste-spark style dis can in theory be adapted to a sbc. You need to machine a reluctor wheel or cut grooves in the balancer. Here is more info on it.
http://lukeskaff.com/?page_id=380

Lt1 manifolds can also be machined for a distributor.

I think the simplest solution would be a holley stealthram and an ebl p4. May cost a little more than a used Lt1 manifold setup but you dont have to cut it up to use it.

The Lt1 route is possible but the time and machine work as well as the dis project should not be underestimated.

 

With what you propose, yes it should be able to run it. Otherwise the opti-spark would be the issue, which goes away with DIS.

Just have the Port Mod installed to change the injector firing rate.

RBob.

 

There is someone on Corvette Forum that does the LT1 manifold conversion to a non LT1 block. There is a current thread of pros and cons. A good read I would think.

 

So the Opti sensor wouldn't work with an EBL? I posted because I saw this and it got my brain churning:
http://www.delteq.com/

It uses the LT1 distributor, just not the coil/cap/rotor. The plan would be somehow to run that sensor, but since you said the Opti would be an issue I'm guessing EBL wouldn't run a stock LT1 setup? If I went this route I would do something that didn't involve cutting up the stock intake. The reason I would even be entertaining the LT1 is because of emissions, which - far as I know - isn't available on any other Vortec intakes besides TPI, which is pretty pricey just for the base, not including runners.

It looks like, in short, the easiest thing to do would be simply to use the CAD drawing from Luke Skaff's page and use it to reference the ECM & control a set of coils, yes? Only caveat there would be to make sure the reluctor wheel centers on the balancer and is held securely by the 3 balancer bolts.

 

Sounds like the delteq system is basically the same thing as the Luke Scaff idea but it uses the LT1 sensors/opti instead of making your own.

Im kinda confused. Do you have an LTI motor?

If not then yes the most logical route would be to do the Luke Scaff method and get the port mod. In that case the EBL controls the advance/retard and the caddy ignition module decides which cylinder to give the spark to. You would indeed have to make sure the pickup wheel was clocked correctly with the #1 TDC mark and also be sure the sensor was getting a clean signal.

Here is another detailed build using a GM DIS on a datsun. Lots of good info here.

http://www.delcohacking.net/forums/v...e126077a88aa9f

What emissions features are you getting with the LT1 manifold that you wouldn't get with an aftermarket setup?

I have also heard of some people having fueling issues running an LT1 manifold with a non sequential fueling computer. It could be rumor or only a problem under boost but I remember hearing that the short runners and long plenum causes some cylinders to lean out. It made sense to me that the LT1 injectors being sequentially fired could do cylinder specific fueling to correct the uneven fuel distribution. Remember it only takes one lean Knocky cylinder to pull timing from all of them. This could also be years of internet urban legend but I would at least look into it before going through all of the trouble.

It would be very cool to see this work. I have often wondered how much spark energy the mechanical distributor is leaving on the table. At a highway cruise with tons of advance I would think the rotor would be pretty far away from the prong on the dist cap. More coils also increases the saturation time per spark so it should throw a hot spark every time instead of flaking out at high RPM.

 

It'll take a few times through, but you could re-route a pump in a one gallon can.
Gotta pump it, as the fuel is the coolant for the injectors, else you could just put air to the can for pressure.

If it were me, I'd fill up when you can, and start keeping records.
Meantime, the MPG calc is still good as a relative number. ( more is more, and less is less, and you have a ball-park by how much, you just don't know absolutely )

 

Truthfully, not much.
Once the fuel is lit, it's lit. Any more energy doesn't matter.
I'm running 8.49 compression, .060 gap, and have measured spark voltage.
It very rarely exceeds 11KV. Small cap HEI.
Rotor prong aligned with the post at 28 degrees advance. One edge or the other is lined up over nearly the full range of advance. ( which is how I arrived at my 11 degree static setting ) It *can* go nearly 53 crank BTDC, but the engine never wants that kind of advance. ( I've set the mechanical limit in EBL to 42, knowing it's really mechanically 45 )
OK, almost never. I've seen it go as far as 46 during a high speed throttle lift in lean cruise.

 

Just curious what coil are you running? stock? msd? I'm debating running larger gap on my vortec headed 355 (@ .045), wondering if I should run any bigger.

 

I don't have an LT1. I need EGR for emissions in AZ, and this would be going into my truck. I have a '78 Malibu but I don't have to worry about emissions because I can get around it with classic car insurance. I don't want to have to worry about the OE spider being able to fuel at higher RPM... I suspect the engine may be capable of up to 400hp as it is, which I understand is close to the limit of the spider.

 

Stock. Er.... Duralast junk. ( if I burn it up, who cares ? )

The objective is to make certain the fuel lights. Period.

We have a number of things acting against each other here.
The narrower the gap, the lower voltage both required and obtainable, but the higher the current, hence heat, for the same energy. Since the typical spark, within the spark channel, is hotter than the surface of the sun, heat isn't really a problem.
The wider the gap, the more air and fuel molecules in the gap, hence the greater the chance that some of them will be in the spark channel. This isn't normally a problem, except at air/fuel mixtures near the edge of flamability, but fuel mix and fuel distribution can be. A wider gap overcomes some of these problems. Less chance of a misfire.

The down-side to the wider gap is that higher voltages are both required, and developed, to bridge that gap. The danger is that the "easier" path is across windings inside the coil, destroying the coil, or through the wire insulation, and such.
The possibility of fouling, due either to too cold a plug, or too rich a mixture, is mitigated by a higher potential coil, with the greater potential to destroy itself.
Also too lean a mixture. There is a greater chance there will be some "correct" mix within the gap to ignite, and begin the flame front.

The newer HEI and coil-on-plug systems coils have far and away more potential than the engine will ever require. We don't need God's own lightning, we just need to make effective use of what we have.

I'm a believer in wide gaps. Much experience over the years, things like the 1965 chevy coil on the Harley combined with a .070 gap and that sporty always fires and is running by the third kick, or closing down gaps to the point of low speed misfire, opening gaps to greater than 0.100 and burning out coils, all tells me that you want to run the widest gap you can safely run, that won't arc over and destroy the coil or wiring due to the higher voltage developed, especially at high RPM.
Some coils can stand 0.120 gaps, but for how long ?
Higher compression and it's more difficult to push a spark across the gap. Higher voltage is developed. Actual cylinder pressure, not compression ratio.
Does you engine come into its own, and develop high compression pressures at high RPM ?

A wide gap aids low speed, avoiding misfire, but the greater turbulence at high speeds increases chance of misfire, by simply blowing out the spark. A narrow gap fires more reliably at high speed, but increases chance of low speed misfire.
Manufacturers recommendation is a compromise of all of these. Typically, 30-50 thou. depending on the particular application.
My 1975 Buick Wildcat with the 1987 GMC small cap divorced coil HEI, that never really turns above 5500, developing highest actual in cylinder pressures close to 4400 RPM, I run 0.060 and it has shown to be a good number. Nearly double manufacturers gap ( with stock points ignition ) of 0.035.

Coils are advertised as being capable of 80KV or so, but that's largely bull.
Except for a misfire, your engine is unlikely to ever see spark voltage near 20KV.
Still, 30 actual developed KV and you are dangerously close to an internal arc, and self destruction, if not already past it.

If I was you, I would do what I did. Buy a cheap duralast ( or equivalent ) and keep widening the gap as you're comfortable, until it fails. Then, buy a new coil, and start over.
But, that's me.
Only those who are willing to go too far, know how far you can go.

 

I've already bought a Delco coil. How do you know when the coil "fails", ie: no spark at all? I know i've replaced coils on running vehicles and they run "better", especially at idel/low speed. But the only reason I do that is due to high milage or trying to fix an unsmooth idle. Like always cflick you've filled my brain with information (whether I like it or not)! thanks.

 

I've seen coils fail three ways that I could distinctly identify.
1, arcs where they shouldn't be. Virtually no spark at the plug, but clearly audible ( or visible ) in the wrong place. Misfires.
2, the newer open frame where the laminates rust, and the coils simply get weak.
One of those, I closed the plug gaps down to 0.010 and drove it to the parts store.
3, had two that would overheat and simply stop sparking. On a boat, and eventually traced to the permanent magnet unregulated alternator pushing the system voltage ( battery ) to 30 volts.
That one would return to just fine when it cooled off, but when I saw oil boiling out, I changed it.
( also added a regulator to that system from an old lawn mower )

 

Since you seem to have a little ignition experience... I'm having a minor ignition snafu on the 383. It seems to run fine just about everywhere but 1800-2200rpm. When it's in that range I seem to get somewhat of a miss. Cap/rotor/plugs/wires have around 15,000 miles on them. Wires are a Taylor under-header set, coil is an MSD unit with probably 100,000 miles or more on it. Plugs are a copper OE replacement, Vortec heads, stock ICM.

I originally thought the ICM may be getting hot or not getting a good enough ground, so I removed the original compound, cleaned off what oxidation from the distributor body that I could, and used a good heatsink compound. It still does it, though it doesn't seem as much. Originally the 383 had a set of TBI heads on it, and I started getting major missing/sputtering at upper RPMs, turned out to be the plugs (Bosch platinum), went to OE replacement copper and it ran fine. I'm wondering if it's the same issue here, since the Vortec OE is platinum.

 

Above the range where a wide gap would shine, yet below the range where a narrow gap comes into its own. You don't mention what gap you're running, but for that RPM range, I'd stick with something close to 0.030 until you're sure you've found the problem.
In a range where high compression is possible.
Does it miss worse with throttle ? Warmed up, or cold ? Will it do it parked, in neutral, no load ?

Fine wire platinum plugs are normally good for somewhere upwards of 100K.
( which is why they exist )
New off-the-shelf $1 GM plugs are fine, and cheap, and a quick check. The do wear, but at the price who cares ?
Cap, wires, depends more on under-hood conditions ( condensation, petroleum fumes, etc ) than anything. Coils don't *normally* fail, absent some other cause, like over voltage.

Unfortunately, that could be coincidence, or a bad sign.
Got a cheap substitute laying around ? A friend who can loan you one ?
A used known good ICM would be a better choice than a new replacement, until you are sure.
There's not a good way to test these things, short of replacement, especially when they are not either pass/fail but might be somewhere between.
By their nature, new doesn't necessarily mean good.

Pull a plug and look.
Platinum wire plugs are good for a long, long time. They are not a performance part, they are a low maintenance part. Any plug can foul, or burn, though the correct heat range *generally* prevents this. There can be a slight ( probably never notice ) advantage of the fine wire, as the center electrode simply by being smaller is less obstruction to getting burnable mix into the gap, but it's slight. About the same as indexing plugs, more or less.

General stuff. At night, as dark as you can make it, open the hood and simply look for sparks or corona where it shouldn't be. Anywhere !
If *changing* the plug gap makes a difference, that's a clue. Not a fix.
I drilled a couple holes in a dist cap just so I could put a timing light on it, and see where the pole pieces line up when the thing fires, and watch the sparks, but that's a bit extreme.

Since this *is* the EBL thread, are you running a wide band ? What does the O2 sensor say when this happens ? ( wide or narrow )
Don't want to go chasing ignition and find out it's a fueling thing.
( how do I know that ? )
Does your timing light agree with the WUD display ? Is your timing light erratic ?

 

I have a wideband but haven't really noticed anything to far either way (rich/lean). Timing light seems to be steady, I haven't double checked against the WUD. I've also wondered if it's sparking across wires. Plugs are set at factory Vortec gap. Where I live it gets dark by 6-6:30, and by 7-7:30 it's pitch black out.

While just sitting in p/n with no load I've never noticed it. In gear it misses regardless of load more or less, but it usually passes that range fast enough on acceleration it's only noticeable at lighter loads and rpm is more steady... it's pretty obvious on the expressway around 75-80. It seems to happen a little more after it's warm, which is why I thought it may be the ICM getting warm and some specific criteria are met that makes it do what it does. I've never noticed it under WOT from a stop.

 

For me, I route wires so they never lay against each other, or anything else, if at all possible. I've been known to use empty pill bottles as spacers, laying four wires in opposite quadrants and wrapping with electrical tape to keep them there.
Truthfully, if that helps, you need new wires.

Your "better half" got a hair drier ?
Heat up the module when the rest of everything is dead cold, and see how it acts.
Could also pull over when it's acting up, and start a can of freeze spray until it frosts up, and see.

Best is to swap it with a known good one.

 

Wideband 02 sensors.

I was wondering what you would recommend for a wideband 02.

Also do you just need a sensor or do you need a controller too?

 

The wideband you see that is typically $200+ comes with a controller, a wideband sensor can be inexpensive as a stock heated sensor (the one with the TT-1 setup is about $50). If you're going with an EBL I would say get the TT-1 wideband setup at the same time. It's a decent price and it's easier to get set up with the EBL. Some WBO2 mfrs have different voltage "curves", and the TT-1 already has its settings programmed in the WUD software.

 

That seems to be the way to go.

How do you connect the 02 to the ECM though?
Do you just connect the purple wire to port with the seven below it?

 

I recall the directions are on dynamicefi site. My Innovate is analog outport on controller to that post on EBL. Then you need to configure in WU.

 

I'm curious, the calpak holds the limphome data, correct? Since there isn't a calpak that will run my setup, do I need to install one with the EBL. Especially since the EBL doesn't lose its data?

 

On the TT-1 the orange wire is normally used. The purple can be used if the controller is set up for it (can be done by user). As delivered the orange is the 0 - 5 V WB output with the purple being a simulated NB output.

On the EBL board connect it to any of the 8 terminals marked 7 - 0. Then in the WUD Preferences dialog, ADC Channels tab, select the TT-1 WB device for the channel you connected it to. Then depress the Preferred WB button for that channel.

RBob.

 

You can without it. Just turn off the malfunction flag for it to prevent a SES light. Earlier in this thread I show how to fake out having a CALPAK in place to prevent the SES. Used a 1K (10K ?) resistor across two pins of the socket.

RBob.

 

My gear indictor is no longer working. It has worked flawlessly until I reformatted my laptop, strange? All I get on the WUD is a "0"
TCC locks as set in bin and works fine. Im more curious than anything else to why this would happen all of a sudden.
All bin files were on the ebl flash banks, so nothing moved or changed.
Only noticable change now is the EBL is going through lap top com port 3 instead of 10.

thanks in advance.

 

Mine is on a different port almost every time I plug it in. I also get semi-random BSODs after plugging it in, but my Win7 install is very old and I'm not sure what skeletons are hiding in the "closet" of the OS.

 

Not strange at all. In the WUD Preferences dialog set the Gear Indicator selection for an automatic. You wiped out the WUD's config file with the format, no big deal.

Note that if you don't have the calibrations/BINs, you can read them out of the EBL ECM via the Flash display.

As for the COM port changing, again it is due to the format and re-install of the O/S. Previous COM ports that were assigned elsewhere no longer exist. So the EBL USB cable is assigned the lowest available COM port.

RBob.

 

This all depends upon which chip-set and driver is used for the USB/Serial cable. The short explanation is that the FTDI based cables we sell/provide are serialized. With no other O/S or driver set up changes they get assigned the same COM port every time they are plugged in.

Non-serialized USB/Serial cables can be assigned a new port each time they are plugged in. Or get assigned a COM port based on which USB port they are plugged into.

One step further is to program an ID string into the USB chip. We do this with the TT-1 WB, as the chip is physically part of the WB controller. In this case the TT-1 Windows utility program auto IDs the port from the ID string of the USB device.

The user doesn't need to select which port to use, it is auto-magically found and used.

Unfortunately this can't, or rather shouldn't, be done with loose USB/Serial cables. As they can also be used for other then EBL devices.

RBob.