Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I would continue to increase fuel pressure....You should see a result in reduced DC%. Do you have an adequate fuel pump to allow you to increase FP?

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Yes sir ! I have a TPI pump I believe .. It's a part # Harris performance suggested ... I have had it up to almost 30psi just to see what it would do ... But that was as far as my regulator from CFM tech would allow ...

On another note I just got my TT1 WB and what is the BEST way to wire it ? Should I ground to EBL or ALL grounds to Block ?

dairy

Just took the car out for three runs in 20 degree weather. I wanted to see what adjusting the bpc vac would do. All runs revealed the same 1/4 time and mph although the third run had sig less wheel spin.

1st run bpc at 134
90 - 98 DC 950mv for the 02
2nd run bpc at 119
75 - 85 dc 950mv for the 02
3rd run bpc at 109
70 - 80 dc 400 - 1000 mv for the 02
why does the 02 read different values with the bpc at 109?

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Hey Ronny ! Is it u that has the aero motive external FPR ? On TBI ? What was the part number or a link Mabey ? This FPR on the TB sucks .. It's a pain to adjust .. And I'm thinking about getting some braided stainless fuel lines anyway so would be a good time for an external .. I've looked at them but idk there's several with multiple inlets and outlets etc. and idk what would work best ! Thanks for all the help Ppl

Edit :: another thing .. I ot my WB hooked up today .. And just cranked the car in the driveway for a few .. After I got warmed up and in closed loop I revved a few times / held various rpms / revved some more etc.. I was dataloging .. But I noticed after a rev to say 3000 rpm I noticed the AFR going to almost 19:1 !!! Is this bad ? Should DE be reduced or something ? Thx Nate

xch3no2

This is what I use,
http://www.jegs.com/i/Mallory/650/43...rentProductId=

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I forget the aero # like 13301 or 13303. The TBI one I use is low pressure 0-20 and high oressure 20-60 with a change of a spring which are supplied.

Di you calibrate the WB to "free air"? If so 19/1 should be real #. Free rev should invoke AE. Poossibly needs more AE but I suspect you need more fuel pressure.

DE should have no effect. I believe there is a MPH to disable it. So it may not occur under 30 MPH. I believe it has a 0% TPS qualifier as well. That too may be changed. Not sure on that.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

I didn't know I needed to calibrate it ? ... It's the TT-1 from RBOB .. How do I calibrate it ?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Mine is a Bosch 02 sensor with Innovate controller. Mine needs calibration. Possibly TT does not. It would say so in owners manual during first use or replacement of a defective 02 sensor. My Innovate has a button on controller than I depress and in 30-45 secs it is calibrated. Done in free air. Reads 21% 02 I recall.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Yea I read the installation documents and read nothing about calibration ..

Can someone go over the WB learn process ? What all do I disable, flag check/uncheck etc. ?
Also how large of a filter should I use on the wB I got it set to 10% now
.. And what are the two buttons at the end of the afv channel setup for one says WB one says fuel

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Let me make sure I got this right

WB VE Learn = disable ccp, disable EGR, disable C/L ( entry temp high), lock BLM at 128 , setup ADC channel and preferences for WB . Is that it ?

Cflick

Not necessarily. If it happened after the throttle was lifted, and the RPM was coming down, you're not making power anyway. ( but I'd expect rich, if anything )
If it happened while the throttle is open, and the engine winding up, that's not good, but you're not under load, and could have manifold wetting happening.
Still might suggest some AE could be added, but I'd reserve judgement until I saw what it does on the road.
It's really hard ( if even possible ) to tell anything from a neutral rev.

More importantly, what was the duty cycle of the injectors ?

Cflick

Just FYI.....
I replaced a TBI off a 350, about 600 CFM as I recall, with a big block TBI off a 454, about 750 CFM. Used the same small injectors from the smaller TBI so that ( at the time ) I wouldn't have to change anything in the ECM. ( well before EBL )
The O2 will report slightly lean, and the ECM will compensate, up to about 1/2 throttle or so. Beyond that, you run out of fuel, and go lean. Real lean. ( yeah, 1/2. Not 3/4 )
OK, bigger injectors. More air, more fuel, should be more or less OK, and it was, but my mill will pump enough it still ran out of fuel at full throttle, or pulling a trailer.
Fuel. OK. Measure stock fuel pressure. 11 PSI. ( they say 13, but don't bet on it ) Scribble scribble, calculate, calculate.... Need about 25 PSI more or less. Stock GM TBI fuel pump has a cut out bypass at 15 PSI. Bummer ! Added an in-line booster. Added a spring. Tweek, tweek, got 24 PSI through the 80 lb injectors, which works out to 109 lb each. Close 'nough !
ECM did not like it at all ! Went pig rich. Well, that's better than lean.
Finally, enter the EBL, and it got easier. Start logging and adjusting, which is a never ending process.
My system is calibrated to 750 CFM at 5500 RPM. Air flow maxes out at everything the big block TBI is capable of. Exhaust ( yeah, it's engineered too ) maxes out at around 745 CFM intake, plus burnt gas, plus heat expansion. Injectors hit 85%, so they are maxed as far as control is concerned.
At that point, it is what it is. It makes all the power it's capable of, even though calculations say it can't make that much at that RPM. ( but it should make more a couple hundred RPM lower ) I get max torque around 2800, ( about 560 ft/lbs or so ) which is what I want, and with plenty of reserve power capability, so I'm happy.

You can trial and error, or you can calculate what pressure you need.
For me, 24 PSI works well. I'm 85% DC at full throttle 5500 RPM sustained, and 1-2% at idle. Good range, but about the limit of the ability to control the injector.
If I wanted to go higher, ( which I don't need, and will almost never drive ) I'd need even more fuel pressure, and a vacuum regulator to handle the low end.
To me, it's just not worth it, but that's me.

If you're at 17 now, and 140% DC, and you want to trial and error, I'd go about 21 or 22 lbs fuel and try again.
Or, you can calculate it. You need to know the real VE of the engine, displacement, and RPM to get air flow, then work the fuel to be able to get 11 AFR or so, for a little reserve, see how many lbs/hr that is, then work the square law flow rate to get the required PSI change from what you now have, and put it there. Then, start re-running learns all over again, watching the DC as you go.
It sounds complicated, and it is, but you'll only need to do it once.
Trial and error you may need to tweek, and re-tune a few times, or you may get lucky.
The risks are that you get fuel pressure so high, the injectors won't open, or that they can't work fast enough for the very low DC at idle.

Have fun, but remember, it's addicting. VERY addicting !

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Remember a WB can detect almost instantaneously a change in A/F. When you crack open the throttle a drop in VAC occurs. Some of atomization of fuel falls out of suspension. The WB may show lean for .05 sec and it will appear on a log and a flash lean read on a A/F piller gauge. This may be more of a characteristic of TBI injection. Could bring in the AE sooner by using a smaller filter factor. It will at same time increase the lenght of event of AE as well as volume.

Dominic Sorresso

CFlick,

I must say that I found the use of VAFPR and EBL the solution for a good idle while having enough injector with an 80% DC at WOT. Really the only good solution for my Xfire.

Cflick

I'm not saying it's something to be avoided at all.
Merely that *I* don't need one for the range in which my package operates.
Therefore, there is no good reason for *me* to add the complexity that comes with it, no matter how minor that might be.

Dominic Sorresso

Cflick,

In my case I was "forced" to do it because the Xfire uses staggered injectors for the Corvette. In order to upgrade them, I had to install a pair of 80# BB injectors. This necessitated running individual fuel lines to each TB rather than the one in series from the factory. That, in turn, makes the built in regulator useless therefore needed to install an external one. And because of the necessity for larger injectors, idle tune became an issue when trying to supply a motor that was now putting out 80rwhp more than the stock motor put out at the crank.
Would have liked to find a solution similar to yours but it was unavoidable in my case. Fortunately, EBL provided a great solution. That was the point of my post.

Cflick

Methinks that is *the* reason they exist !?
Sometimes I wonder, if I had gotten the 25-26 PSI I was targeting, and not the 24 PSI I got, would that have pushed my idle DC over the edge ?
Below 1% duty cycle, there isn't a lot of room for adjustment.

And a very valid point.
Try doing it with a 7747. "Fun" would not exactly be the word that would come immediately to MY mind.

Dominic Sorresso

Cflick,

Actually the 7747 is how I started with all this. I replaced the stock 84 ECM w one from Turbo City. Who knew? I could never show that to Grumpy. He would start gagging!

Doober

Yes/no/maybe so? I have a feeling my idle will be a little smoother considering it's currently 18psi at the lowest.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Only way to know is do a VE L afterwards...In theory it should not require.

Dominic Sorresso

The chances are very good you will need to do re-learns. Its a corollary of tuning that you always need to do re-learns even if you don't change anything. It can always be better.

Doober

The WB is still in place, so it wouldn't be difficult to do more learns, just curious... I have emission testing due this month for new tags, but I haven't driven it in probably a month or more, and the readings were a little too close for comfort.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

What would be a good # to start increasing injector offset by ? 10% ? Factory FP is 13psi and I'm now at 20 psi

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Do you have accress to the I/O in the EBL utility? It also was posted here a while back (22 lbs FP with 75 lbs or 80 lbs injectors). Those values may be a good reference.

Dominic also posted his 20 lbs at 75 lbs FP a while back for I/O. A search may find both.

20/13= 1.54. Not sure is one would increase by 54%. Something tells me there is a sq rt involved with fuel pressure. 54% Seems a bit high.

Cflick

Right you are !
The flow difference is the square root of the pressure ratio multiplied by what the flow really was.
GM TBI injectors are rated at 13 PSI, but it's highly doubtful that was the actual pressure. Need to measure before and after, and calculate both.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Ok what do u mean do I have access to the IO ? Last time I checked the ebl utility don't have any io info ... I know the dump
Log has I/C column ... Also I have an LO3 with factory 55# injectors with 20psi FP as previously stated ... Also I was Wondering if anyone could describe the " "DELTA" values for me ? I don't quite understand it ... Dmap - Dtps ... Thanks for the help guys !

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

In the Utility is a .bin with a 22 lbs fuel pressure at 80 lbs FI(early BB). See the injector bias tables. A 350 CID. Bin labeled 3001

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Sweet .. I Didn't think about that .. What about delta values can someone give me a quick lesson

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

delta values?

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

DTPS, DMAP in the dump log ... Also is the I/C column injector correction ?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Are you refering to delta for AE? If so it is a value in usec or msec for AE(I forget). TPS AE vs MAP AE. delta I recall is a time value. time "on" is adjustable in .bin

I/C is inj correction.

1991sleeper

iTrader: (-3)

Yea delta AE .. So the Dmap and Dtps are just the time of that specific AE

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The "What's Up Display Help" document lists the meanings of the header annunciations. Can find it in the EBL Flash Program Group. The AE columns (5 of) are there to help the tuner get the AE in line.

RBob.

Rated001

Hi everyone, Just joined recently cuz I noticed this is the place to be at for anyone tuning with ebl flash.

I was emailing RBob for questions but I figured its better to get answers here so everyone benefits.

I have some pinging issues at 2500+ rpms but theyre not Ebl related, it started right before after I changed my intake gaskets and redid my timing, but I think the WUD found my issue (fingers crossed) The knock sensor bar doesnt move at all on my datalog playback... so I ran the engine and tapped the manifold and block and there was no change in idle. I just bought a new sensor and will be installing tonight. I'll post results after hopefully with good news.

Doober

I don't think mine is working either, don't see any counts when I can hear it knocking.

Rated001

I went underneath to replace the knock sensor and checked the wiring just in case and found a two inch bare copper portion up against the tranny,,, sensor didnt look too good so I replaced it anyway, than patched, shrink wrapped, and shielded the wire.

Good news: Sensor works great now
Bad news: on a 12 min ve learn I got a 110 knk count :-/
2/16/13 update
More bad news.... woke up with the laptop dead on the couch @ 3am(zombied walked back to the room to an angry girlfriend) and it hit me( not her.... my engine issue )
"I bent a valve" amidst setting the timing I made the poor decision to test drive (w/too much advance I think) and before I made it out the neighborhood it popped and stalled. I thought it miss-fired so I cranked back up and idled back to my driveway . set my timing at zero with est wire unplugged and no further adjustment afterwards and when i fired up ltr it never ran better other than the pinging i developed =( a bent valve would be present at all rpms though right?
While setting the timing I tried to start the engine a good amount of times, maybe I got gas in my oil and thinned it out, Guess It wouldnt hurt to change it. After I get some sleep.

Rated001

Just found this and thought I'd post it, might help someone, My fuel pressure only goes as low as 16psi thanx to my 255/Fuel pump and wanted to calculate the change in #'s per hr and came across this calculator
http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/InjectorSizeCalc.html

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I doubt that a valve was bent. Detonation rarely if ever does that. If the valve train id making noise look for rockers nuts backing off.

Can also use the EBL Utility to get the change in injector flow versus fuel pressure.

One thing to be careful of when running a big pump, is compliance in the FPR. You may be able to get it down to 16 psi, but also find that it drops like a rock under load (high fuel demand).

RBob.

Rated001

the noise started after the timing adjustment so im thinking it might not be right still. i haven't replaced the chain so its probably stretched out a bit. should i compensate for that?

Dont think its the timing, 1st reason: running way too good for the timing to be off 2nd: adjusting the timing doesnt increase or lessen the noise, its not a consistent noise, sounds almost like debris being blown around the driver side.

Cflick

You have to tap it pretty fast. If the counter doesn't register, then the idle won't change.

Cflick

I'd say that's empirical proof !

Cflick

Most likely, the wire was the problem.

A bent valve will manifest as a persistent miss, no matter what.

Even if you did, that's unlikely to manifest as anything you'd hear.
Quite unlikely you got that much gas into the oil.

Easy test.
Run it for about 30 seconds, then shut it down and smell the dip stick.

Doober

I haven't actually checked to see if it's that or the ESC module, hence the 'think'.

Rated001

thanx Cflick . i tapped it pretty fast but not because I knew. good to know for future reference .

oil smells fine. but changed it anyway . I' m taking a break from the noise for now. gonna hook up my IAT sensor .
maybe I can get a sound recording for you guys ltr.

trona

Hi all
After 6 months of successful EBL tuning I have two troubling problems the first is when the engine is cold it tends to have low BLM numbers (120-124) as it warms up it settles in around 128. I have played with AIT CTS balance but can't seem to get a handle on this.
Thanks for any advice.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't even worry about it. As long as the engine runs OK you are good-to-go. The '85 LG4 Camaro engine I converted to TBI was the same way. It did have running issues when it first entered closed loop.

This was fixed by raising the closed loop CTS threshold by a few degrees. It was just too soon for closed loop to work OK (AFR was too lean for that engine temperature).

RBob.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

I am having issues getting my newly installed EBL P4 flash to communicate. I tried all the comm ports twice, along with disconnecting the usb port... and such. Any tips?

Edit: Make that 7 times. I have unplugged/replugged in the ECU, disconnected the battery and such. I am getting zero communication. I know when I plug in the Laptop it makes a noise like it doesn't recognize the device. I am going to try my other laptop and see what happens.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

WIN7 on HP laptops don't have the FTDI driver installed correctly. Need to de-install then install it from the CD.

Also, see if this helps in finding the proper port:

http://www.dynamicefi.com/USB2SerialSetup.php

One thing to do is to insert the comm/USB cable just by itself into the laptop. Then see if the driver is OK with it and assigns a port.

RBob.

Bullydawg

iTrader: (7)

Got it running... First startup/learn was so much smoother than the old "custom" bin. So far so good! Still need to figure out a few things, but it is much better already! Thanks

Rated001

Repined the ecm harness to add the IAC, there was nothing there so adding was easy.
Then added the fan pin on C2, I pulled the brown wire pin cause I ran my own signal wire to the fan relay and didnt wanna splice, according to the EBL INFO diagram the brown is the fan wire now but it used to be something else,
Just wanted to know what it was used for before since I couldnt find it on my manual.
89 Silverado 4.3