How do I post datalogs ? I ordered a beefy cam the other day and I've decided to just do a cheap rebuild on my 305 LO3 till I can get some $ together over the next year or two to build the 327 I want .. And I'm sure I will be needing some extra help with the new cam n such .. Thanks !

 

It is best to zip the file first, then attach it to the post. You can zip/post the raw .data log file. That is best for me to look at it. But limits others.

Creating a dump file and zip/posting it allows anyone to look at it. If you dump to the .ebl file, be sure to include the headers every second.

If you dump to a .csv file, be sure to check the single header box.

RBob.

 

Hi All. I have been trying to figure this issue out for a while now. I haven't found the exact issue here. I am running lean when I first start up cold to the point I get some lean pops through the pipes. I have played with Open Loop - AFR Multiplier vs CTS and can not get WB02 to get the mixture richer. If you check out the attached graph you can see my commanded is calling for WAY rich but I am running a bit lean. The CTS reading is in the 3 - 7 C range during this brief start up. What else can I look at to enrich my actual AFR and/or make it follow commanded closer. Something has to be holding it so far from commanded.

 

I just noticed that my check engine light is blinking on sometimes. It just blinks on for a fraction of a second, once and that's it. At first I thought I was imagining it, but it's happened a few times. What might cause this? Based on the times, I'd almost guess it was happening when it went closed loop? I thought it was either on or off, not a single blink like this.

 

Did you add to VE table for those RPM/MAP cells you are running in during lean event?

Do you see the AE light on when it occurs?

 

I did not adjust VE because it runs great with almost perfect AFR when warmed up. Wouldn't changing the VE tables make me too rich when at temp? Also, no AE light. This event is the first minute when starting cold. Commanded AFR tells it one thing but actual stays around the 15.7 range. I get idle surge and lean pops. After a minute everthing smooths out as the engine warms up to temp.

 

You may be running the engine way too rich. The plugs can't always light it and it then ignites in the exhaust. The WB can easily be lying to you.

OTOH, even with a proper cold start tune with the commanded AFR in the 11's, the WB usually reports in the 14 's. I found this strange but I go with how the engine runs.

RBob.

 

A short blink on with the engine running sounds like the ECM is going bad. When the SES is set from an error code it is usually on a minimum of 10 or 20 seconds (can't recall which). This min time can be changed in the calibration, but those parameters aren't in the ECU/XDF files we provide.

RBob.

 

When I am <150dF on coolant and OL it seems my car runs better than when I just flip CL. Due I suspect from very cold intake not heat sunk. I believe VE values when in OL (warming up) are used. Should you increase them the 02 feed back CL will place A/F at stoich regardless. I am OL idle and OL under 15 MPH so I tune there with VE and WB reporting on DB pillar gauge. My OL vs VAC tables are pretty much 14.7 to 14.3 or so and I dont touch them. I found changing them a little I saw no change in WB reporting A/F.

 

Bummer. Is this something you can help me figure out for sure? I bought this EBL about a year ago fully installed (I didn't attach the board or provide the ECM). We can get off the forum as appropriate (PM or email). Thanks.

 

I'm still having flashing/connection issues as well. Chance it could be the serial/USB adapter? I've tried a few different drivers, all with the same results. I've also done a fresh install of TunerPro and the WUD, and this is on a recent wipe/install (within the past 2 months) of Windows 7.

 

No problem, this is what warranties are all about. Stuff does fail, and it is covered. Shoot me either a PM or email, the EBL type and a name is helpful.

RBob.

 

It can be the USB/Serial adapter. Is this one of ours? The little, short cable (~6" long)? If not, and is a cable that uses the Prolific chip set, they only work about 20% of the time. Lower percentage over the years as laptops are getting faster.

RBob.

 

No, I bought my first of Newegg. That one broke (don't remember what happened) and I got another, I remember I'm using a Prolific driver, but unsure of the chipset driver.

 

Exactly as I've experienced.

I'm keeping my van @ garage which is about 16..20 C temps and cranking doesn't start engine easily and it shutters and pops sometimes. It's even worse when starting after long standing outside near or below freezing.

I've let my WB02 to warm-up properly and followed its AFR which is 22+ but drops to 14-17 range while cranking. Immediately when engine starts it drops to 11-13 range. That requires multiple crankings or one very long one to get engine start.

I've only played with VE table's high MAP values and choke. Seems pretty much nothing adds fuel to easy starting.

And, if engine has been started even once, for example driving it outside from garage, it starts as it should.

 

Stock? Have you added to crank PW and same on choke? Baby steps...
400 rpms /100 MAP have you added to VE there?

 

For better cold starts there are several areas to address. The first three are mechanical in nature. Be sure that the fuel pump runs and builds fuel pressure immediately after key-on.

The second is the base IAC setting. On a warm engine with no other loads the IAC steps should be in the 5 - 10 range. This allows for the fuel to be pulled past the throttle blades, as most air is also going past them.

Third, at idle the cone of fuel spray from the injectors should hit the bores right above the throttle blades. Adjust the injector pod height to get this.

From there tuning changes can be made. During cranking the ECM uses the VE table at 400 RPM, and the 70 - 100 KPa area. Starts at 100 KPa and as the engine starts to turn over the MAP KPa drops. Can increase this area for more cranking fuel.

There is the "Crank - AFR" table that defines the commanded AFR during cranking. A lower value is richer.

The "Crank - PW Multiplier" table is used to decay out the cranking PW as the engine RPM increases. This is to provide a smooth transition to running. So be sure to not have this table remove fuel at cranking RPMs.

And lastly, the "Crank - Prime PW" table. This table adds to the crank injector PW for one each of an injector firing. Can use larger values at low temperatures. However, this table is only effective if there is fuel pressure. Otherwise it will do nothing as there is no fuel to deliver.

Recall that after the engine sits overnight there is no fuel vapor in the intake, unlike a warm start. So fuel priming and getting it past the throttle blades helps for a faster cold start.

A cam with more duration also hurts cold starts. There isn't as much vacuum to pull the fuel into the chambers.

Early on before the EBL TBI code was released I had AE active even when the engine wasn't running. So, key-on, engine-off, pump the pedal, and turn the key for instant start. Was removed as if not careful it was also easy to flood the engine.

Could also add code to automatically spray some fuel at key-on. But not every key-on is used to crank the engine. So no go there.

Make sure that the fuel pressure comes up fast and use the Prime PW table. Along of course with the other stuff.

RBob.

 

RBob,

Not really questioning your motive on the cranking, but have you considered switching the cranking over to be more like the newer $0D stuff? The fuel pulses are directly based off DRP # and a couple of other multipliers. It works quite well. They do not even use a crank signal to the ECM like the older codes. Key on runs the pump for up to 10-15 seconds for an extended prime. Some calibrations also have a fuel pump run time up to 60-90 secs after the key off to help cool the TBI after shut down. These were used mostly on 454s in motorhomes and vans.

Also noticed that many newer cars disable the crank fuel for up to 720* of cranshaft revolution. This is to help build an oil pressure prime in the system to help cut down on dry starts. It is not necessarily a bad thing to have the engine crank over a couple of crankshaft revolutions before it fires, especially on a cold start. The number of degrees delay was based off ECT. Hot engine was programmed for 90* delay, cold engine 720* delay. Mind you this was on my 5.7 Hemi. But I like the idea behind it.

 

Forget to specifically state that mine is running E85 FlexFuel and is thus way more prone for hard cold starts...

Yep. And I'm patient enough to wait some seconds in key-run before key-crank to get that fuel pressure and all possible bubbles out from fuel lines.

Yep. Below 10 when warm, consistently.

I know I need to do that. And get distributor checked and dialed to exactly 0 degree. Currently lacking working strobo lamp...

Currently experimenting with this. Starts better already.

I definitely need to dial latter table. Mine is pig-rich up to closed loop...

That might be the ticket to get mine initially starting.

Yes. Mine requires long cranking and starts poorly after standing overnight. But when starts, will re-start as it should even when engine temps are in a degree same as initially.

Like, long cranking till starts, then shut down immediately and re-start in few seconds. Wet manifold helps...

My Comp XE262H doesn't really help cold starts with E85... and it seems to generate about 60 map figures for 600 rpm warm idle when gear in neutral.

When engine's cold and idle drops below 550 almost no brakes because of low vacuum. And off-throttle idle drops quite low when decelerating to crossings etc. Too rich and IAC plays much when cold.

RBob, any good procedure for using WhatsApp analyse view for figuring out if/why commanded is different than realized fueling ?

 

The EBL SFI-6 uses async PW injections based on various inputs. Driven of course by the DRP's. It does work well.

RBob.

 

Try it with the distributor base timing at 6* BTDC. Be sure to also change the calibration to match. The base timing is used during cranking.

Make sure that the VE table is OK first. If once in closed loop the BLM is further then +- 5 from 128, try to get it closer to 128.

Can then use this table to adjust the open loop AFR:

Open Loop - AFR Multiplier vs CTS

A lot of this is dependent upon the VE table, so it needs to be correct. An IAT sensor also helps.

One thing is that with a cold engine the commanded AFR and WB reported AFR don't usually match. With the WB typically reporting a leaner AFR.

RBob.

 

Hi there
Been doing a lot of WB tuning with my new P4 flash. Most of my VE is pretty good but
my low map 20kp 30 kpa is just impossible to tune. this is led to violent bucking at 800-900 rpm 20-35 kpa. Both in OL and CL so prep gains should not be the issue.
This is what I have tried so far.
Hand smoothing adjacent cells
pulling timing
turning off S/F mode
buying the ebl flash system
replacing all my exhaust gaskets
Changing entering point for idle
My truck is a old land cruiser with a 383ht 5sp in it and when i am off road i spend a lot of time in the low rpm low map area.
Any help would greatly appreciated.
Thanks Dave

 

I need to see a data log. Mark those areas that buck by tapping the space bar.

Is the bucking due to drive-train wind-up? Too lean?

RBob.

 

I need to see a data log. Mark those areas that buck by tapping the space bar.

Is the bucking due to drive-train wind-up? Too lean?

RBob.

 

Yes the drive line has a transfer case and low rear gears so the is some slack.
I did some more very slow tuning in that range today. When the bucking is at its worst is on a slight down hill at 3-5 mph with a closed throtlle. It can become so violent with out touching the gas that the tires are screeching and the number of VE cells it happens over are so many the it is hard to tell if it is lean but it dosn,t seem to be.
I also noticed even if i hold the thottle steady in these low map and rpm areas and can see i am 14.7+- the motor surges.
I will do a log and post it
Thanks again

 

I've found this to be true as well.

For me, the dist is set static at 10 degrees advance. The engine likes it.
Oh, BTW, that does *not* mean that the ECM/EBL can't retard the timing to something less than that if it thinks it needs to !

Typically, I turn the key on, and wait for all the power-up beeps and boops to stop, around 5 seconds or so, then hit start. This gives the pump(s) time to pressurize the fuel system, and the engine rarely ( if ever ) cranks past about 180 degrees and it's running.
If it's been sitting for a few months ( as it has now ) it might take 270 degrees, or maybe a full turn, and it's running. About one, maybe one and a half seconds later, oil pressure is up to max. ( that part concerns me a little, but it could be ( partly anyway ) gauge delay )
Then, it surges for about 30 seconds, and begins to settle down.

Personally, I've never really looked at the WBO2 within the first minute or so, until the surge starts to settle. I figure whatever it says is probably wrong anyway within that first minute.

 

is there an option to increase the KOEO fuel pump run time? I find I only build about 20psi with the current timer and I am running my injectors @ 30 psi.

 

Rbob thirdgen won't let me post dat files so i will email them.
Dave

 

I posting RBob response to my bucking problem because it is extremely helpful.
Dave,

"There are several issues in the tune. The reason S/F doesn't work would be because the injector compensation values aren't correct.

The issue that is causing the bucking is the short injector PW. It is going to 1.5 msec at which point there is no fuel being injected and the engine shuts off.

The drive-line rubber-bands causing the engine RPM to increase and the injectors start to spray again at 1.7 msec. At which time the engine starts to run again. And repeat.

Also need to work on the VE table. From what I can see for values in the log it drops to as low as 7%. Which is really low. And it appears that there are steep cliffs in the low RPM area.

Once the injector compensation values are correct switching between D/F and S/F is seamless. That will help with the short injector PWs.

Then work on getting the VE correct along with smoothing the table.

Note that I looked at the CL log briefly, and went to the OL log. This eliminates any proportional gains from affecting the injector PW. I would try to work with the tune in OL first.

There is also the open loop decel flag that is handy to set when running closed loop elsewhere.

Regards,

BobR.
Dynamic EFI"

 

Here Is RBob's response to my offset settings for Ford 24# Injectors.

Injector Data Sheet: M-9593-A302, 24 #/hr blue tops, fat

Fuel Pressure: 47

Minimum PW @ 47 psi: 1.084

Offset Compensation versus Battery Voltage:
(INJ - Injector Correction Offset)
0.0 Volts: 701 usec
6.4 Volts: 3027 usec
8.0 Volts: 1807 usec
9.6 Volts: 1243 usec
11.2 Volts: 923 usec
12.8 Volts: 701 usec
14.4 Volts: 524 usec
15.0 Volts: 475 usec*

Flow rate: 27.0 #/hr

Small PW Compensation versus Pulse Width:
(INJ - Small PW Correction - PORT Only)
0.015 msec: -140 usec
0.244 msec: -128 usec
0.488 msec: -115 usec
0.732 msec: -102 usec
0.976 msec: -90 usec
1.220 msec: -77 usec
1.460 msec: -64 usec
1.708 msec: -51 usec
1.950 msec: -38 usec
2.197 msec: -25 usec
2.440 msec: -12 usec
2.685 msec: 0 usec
2.929 msec: 0 usec
3.170 msec: 0 usec
3.410 msec: 0 usec
3.660 msec: 0 usec
3.900 msec: 0 usec

In the offset data, extrapolate from the 14.4V to the 16.0V entries and above. Easy to do using the graph of the table.

The Small PW compensation table can't have negative values, so just zero it.

For the "INJ - Single Fire Mode PW - PORT Only" table, I would use 1150 usec to enter and 1350 usec to exit. Maybe even 1400 usec to exit. Depends upon whether proportional gains causes the ECM it constantly enter/exit/enter/exit...



Dave

 

That'll be my next move. Fixed my timing light but in a van reach to damper for checking timing is little bit awkward...

That's how I eventually figured it out. My VE learning has lead to fairly stable map which is corrected +- 1..3 % so I consider it stable. Driving in moderate throttle so that it stays in closed loop is not bad.

I've worked with this table already but more is needed. Unfortunately spring progresses so we don't have below freezing temps too often. But fortunately even normal spring & summer cold start temps behave much the same way.

For next winter I'll seek required stuff to install one. Also considering electric fan install.

For some odd reason my WB is reporting offset values. And I've seen also odd fluctuation of AFR values during cold start and just after. Engine just seems to be lean during cranking but after starting it goes to way rich.

That's easy to see from injector PW which is almost 50% when driving with moderate throttle but after going to closed loop that drops to reasonable figures (like 15-30 %). Then engine starts to sound like it should and rev much easier.

As my throttle response is to good I've monitored WB readings when throttling and in some cases it shows way lean figures as engine's hesitating to react and then going to proper figures with better reaction.

Also when warm and off-throttle idle if I press throttle just briefly it sounds like idle rpm goes down first before starting to pick up. Have to watch WB figures too. I've fixed TPS so that off-throttle it's 0% and full throttle is exactly 100% (it was 90% before).

 

If I said "fun" I'd be lying, but I've been known to do things like....
Crank the engine to where the marks line up, with a wrench.
Stand where you can reach the dist.
Lay a bathroom mirror on the floor where you can see any portion of the damper.
On one vehicle even worse, to where I could see the washer fluid tank, which then had a make-up mirror double-sticky taped onto it, to where I could eventually see the damper, and an edge of the AC compressor, which got the mark.

While making the adjustment, you don't need to know degrees, or even direction of rotation. If you pre-marked it right, all you need to see is either they line up in the mirror(s) or they don't.

On another vehicle, could easily see the marks, but couldn't reach the dist,so electrical taped a length of PVC pipe to the dist to be able to turn it, almost like a wrench. Less awkward than the mirrors, and it worked.

Hey, if you weren't up for a creative challenge, you probably wouldn't be reading this page anyway !

 

I'm already seeing in my eyes how I'm using cleverly mounted mirror in side of alternator to see damper and timing line, where timing light with trigger taped is shooting, and I'm turning distributor between front seats...

This idea of marking damper per reference point and using mirror on garage floor below damper is good. Will use that but then I need helper for either look at damper through mirror, or turn distributor.

 

You're catching on.

If I recall, this is about a hard cold start.
Remember, the static timing is only used during cranking, and in "limp mode" where the ECM has failed for some reason, so if it was me.....
( once the engine fires, and RPM hits 400 or so, the ECM takes over and adjusts to wherever the cal says it's supposed to be )

It's actually easier in a van like yours !
I'd set static in the calibration at 5 degrees. ( this is for the next steps only, not "normal" running )
Then, from the seat, turn the dist to wherever the engine starts best. Lock it down.
Check it with the light to discover where it is.
Put that number in the EBL as the static timing.

It doesn't really matter what the static timing is, so long as the EBL "knows" what that number really is, so that it can correctly fire the injectors and ignition once the engine is actually running, and so that the WUD will correctly report the numbers.

 

Maybe Cflick or another tuner can support this, but here is ia good way I was told to set initial timing. Get the engine up to operating temperature and set timing to a known good setting (say 6* BTDC). Advance the distributor 2* and turn the engine off. If you watch your datalog or temp gauge you will see after a few minutes the temp will spike. Now try and start the car. If it still starts easy, then advance another 2* and repeat the process until the car hard starts or windmills and back up 2*. Now your initial timing is set.

I personally just set mine to 10* and have had no issues.

 

And dont forget to disconnect the EST connector. And reconnect it when initial is set.

 

Personally, I can not. Never tried it that way.

Might work, I really don't know.

Mine is set at ten, for a whole variety of reasons.
It starts easy there under about all conditions.
If/when it needs "limp mode" for whatever reason, it runs OK there, and advances to about 24 ( as I recall ) at about 2K RPM, and still runs OK there. ( built into the module itself )
The "stock" initial setting for that block is between 4 and 12, depending on year.
( smog motors using later timing. High horsepower using more advanced )

I might try that looking for the temp spike trick, and see, but not today.

 

for me tuning is really a seasonal thing. so out of some reason or another, every winter my brain tries really hard to lose all the tuning expertise i gained the summer before

so briefly recapping some basics - true or false in my head?

AE rewets the runners from opening throttle/increasing load. therefore injecting more fuel, but not only to reach stoich but actually making AFR richer say in the 13 range. stays in CL operation?
DE is to keep it around stoich or leaner in decel (assuming no DFCO for this). drops out of CL?
PE is to up the power with a rich mixture and can at times mix with AE. this is OL operation. used to cool internals and cat (?).

thanks!

 

I have been tuning with the EBL for a while and had the car running pretty good. The VE learns would only change by plus or minus 2 or 3. Then the other day the car wanted to add 12 across the VE table and the oxygen sensor (narrow band) voltage would hover around 0. No matter how much I increased the VE table or BPC it still would want to add 12 across the table and the o2 voltage would never increase. Thinking it might be the oxygen sensor I replaced it with a new AC Delco but this did not help. The voltage still reads extremely low and the car thinks it’s lean. The car runs rougher and black smoke comes out the back of the car when more fuel is added, so the car is not actually running lean. What could be causing this?

 

Exhaust leak?

 

I have looked for exhaust leaks and did not find any. The oxygen sensor I replaced was a three wire I had grounded to the frame, the AC DELCO one is a one wire, so I doubt both had a bad ground.

 

Disconnect harness from O2 sensor at sensor. Secure harness end so that it does not come in contact with car chassis
Get your lappy and Whats-up running and connected, go to Diagnostics screen
Turn ignition on - if harness is not shorted to ground the O2 voltage will be reading 450 to 460 mV. If it reading 0 or near 0 volts start looking for a harness short.

//RF

 

I did the above and got an o2 voltage of 460. The voltage will jump between 100 to 450 in open loop but when in closed loop the voltage hangs around zero

 

@aroc

The fact that it is bouncing between 100 and 450 indicates that you have extra oxygen present in the exhaust stream. Oxygen can be coming from cylinder misfire or dead cylinder all together.
Another possibility is that NBO (single wire) is cold. Do you have headers??

//RF

 

I tried this method and now it starts so much easier and instantly.

I kind of merged these methods, parked with engine fully warm (85 C), waited couple of minutes (up to 92 C) and then started with wire disconnected and distributor advanced some. Repeated until started harder, kind of kick-back, and backed up distributor to previous good position.

I checked and have to admit that damper and timing mark reach is pretty much zero without removing parts. So I verified with adjustable timing light that there is non-zero advance in base timing.

Then measured distributor leg diameter and how much it was advanced. Calculated angle and divided by two. Number is about 14 degree which is likely too much but I'll dial that as base SA to my best working calibration.

Let's see how well it starts tomorrow morning. This evening when engine was 30 C started as well as when fully warm.

I'll likely calculate and adjust my distributor later to 10* too. Not perfect method and assumes that markings in intake and distributor are right and exactly at 0 degree.

 

So I'm revisiting the Fiero EBL idea. Eventually I want to swap something in place of the 2.8, I'm between 3400 and 3800. The upside of the 3400 is it's almost a bolt-in, especially compared to the 3800. Is it possible to use the in-block crank sensor to run DIS on the 3400? I'm considering a turbo build for the engine, and I'm also thinking of a 3500 top end swap, from what I understand the heads/intake flow much better.

 

And it starts better than ever ! Little kick-back when engine temp was 22 C but started immediately. Idle is little rougher than before while it warms little bit more.

But biggest amazement was when getting on the move and throttling the engine. It has newer, ever responded to throttle that well and strongly than now. Also injector PW is way less than before and MPG estimate is way better.

Now when in operating temp range idle is about 1000 rpm, IAC is 0 and commanded idle is about 600. I'll calculate new position for approximately 10 degree advance and fix calibration accordingly.

Spent some time yesterday evening hunting down vacuum leaks which I expect to be present as my idle screw is pretty much backed up completely and butterflies are about fully closed. Still idle was and is little high.

Breathing sound is present and stronger in passenger side. Tried to block PCV which improved idle and lessened hissing sound. This will continue for sure...

 

Yes to the 3400 and running DIS. Since that block/timing cover also has the cam sensor provision can run SFI too. And for the turbo, the EBL SFI-6 Flash system has several features specific for turbo apps.

I believe that the 3800 is similar, it has the DIS shutter wheels on the damper, and a cam sensor too. But double check that first, just to be sure.

RBob.

 

I had thought that I already responded to this post. Yes to your method, it is a viable means. Basically, the initial or base distributor timing needs to be set so that the engine doesn't windmill when cold, and doesn't kick back when hot.

The method you outlined finds the 'doesn't kick back' setting. Which is he highest SA the engine should have during cranking.

Be sure to set the calibration's Initial SA to the same value. And note that the higher the base, the higher the minimum SA at the crank can be. The distributor can only be programmed a certain amount to fire before the reference pulse.

RBob.

 

It sounds like the distributor base timing was advanced more then the "SA - Initial SA" value in the calibration was then set to. If both matched previously, and then after advancing the base at the distributor and in the calibration, then the engine running SA didn't change.

But it appears that it did. But it also points out that the engine, in some areas, wants more SA then what is in the calibration. So in the end it has been helpful.

The roughness at idle now is likely from too much SA.

RBob.