Tuning with the EBL
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Joined: Feb 2005
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From: Rochester,NY
Car: 1993 Caprice wagon "Shammoo"
Engine: tpi'd 406, with P4 ebl EBL 730 ECM
Transmission: custom "4L65" swap.
Axle/Gears: 3.42:1 with posi
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Get the birdcage version, as it is reported to have better response time mostly because of it being plastic, is less affected by heat soak issues that occurs with the metal encapsulated version.
Dave
Dave
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Car: 1991 firebird
Engine: TBI 305 (built)
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 4.10
Re: Tuning with the EBL
This is going to be a fairly long post but I need some serious help guys ... Here's the whole story !
I had a stock LO3 T-5 car with 4:10 gears with the 620cfm cfm tech TB with 55# injectors ... I had 1.6 full roller rockers , TB spacer ,CAI, shorty headers & full 3" exhaust as my ONLY mods ... And I had it tuned pretty close to perfect and ran a 9.800 @ 73mph (sounds pretty well tuned to me for a stock LO3 lol.... So here is my dilemma ... I pulled the engine got my machine work done parts ordered etc. for a rebuild of course ... I am in the process of building the engine NOW it is on the engine stand !
I will be using the same exhaust system , same throttle body w/factory regulator delete & cfm tech flow matched 68# injectors , and it is the same ole LO3 block .030 over @ 10.5:1 CR with flat tops ... I will also have the TFS super 23 175cc heads ... My cam specs are 264/270 .485 .495 (216/218@.050) + the 1.6 rockers = .520 .528 lift ..... Oh and a 114 LSA... And a summit stage 1 dual plane intake manifold that has been fully ported gasket matched etc. .....
So here's the kicker .... How do I get a decent enough tune started to where the thing will crank and run well enough so that it won't blow up and ain't pinging like crazy .... What are some things I should change from the previous tune ? Should I just start all over or modify the bin I had ? What spark table should I start with for these heads ? What do I do to VE with the cam and compression change ? Use the same injector offsets ? Idle SA? I know the basics change the bpc vs vac for the injector change and the vaccine reffernced FPR ... Should I start it up with it locked in open loop ? Closed loop ? Thanks for any info mabey I'll figure it out idk ... I only had about 8 months of tuning under my belt before I pulled the motor lol ... I know this is a lot of question to cover :-/ but I've never seen anything like this covered in any thread here so idk .... I do have a build thread if anyone wants to check it out or mabey answer the questions there "lo3 rebuild(HP estimates)" is the name of the thread ... Thanks again !
I had a stock LO3 T-5 car with 4:10 gears with the 620cfm cfm tech TB with 55# injectors ... I had 1.6 full roller rockers , TB spacer ,CAI, shorty headers & full 3" exhaust as my ONLY mods ... And I had it tuned pretty close to perfect and ran a 9.800 @ 73mph (sounds pretty well tuned to me for a stock LO3 lol.... So here is my dilemma ... I pulled the engine got my machine work done parts ordered etc. for a rebuild of course ... I am in the process of building the engine NOW it is on the engine stand !
I will be using the same exhaust system , same throttle body w/factory regulator delete & cfm tech flow matched 68# injectors , and it is the same ole LO3 block .030 over @ 10.5:1 CR with flat tops ... I will also have the TFS super 23 175cc heads ... My cam specs are 264/270 .485 .495 (216/218@.050) + the 1.6 rockers = .520 .528 lift ..... Oh and a 114 LSA... And a summit stage 1 dual plane intake manifold that has been fully ported gasket matched etc. .....
So here's the kicker .... How do I get a decent enough tune started to where the thing will crank and run well enough so that it won't blow up and ain't pinging like crazy .... What are some things I should change from the previous tune ? Should I just start all over or modify the bin I had ? What spark table should I start with for these heads ? What do I do to VE with the cam and compression change ? Use the same injector offsets ? Idle SA? I know the basics change the bpc vs vac for the injector change and the vaccine reffernced FPR ... Should I start it up with it locked in open loop ? Closed loop ? Thanks for any info mabey I'll figure it out idk ... I only had about 8 months of tuning under my belt before I pulled the motor lol ... I know this is a lot of question to cover :-/ but I've never seen anything like this covered in any thread here so idk .... I do have a build thread if anyone wants to check it out or mabey answer the questions there "lo3 rebuild(HP estimates)" is the name of the thread ... Thanks again !
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I would run in OL and monitor the A/F on WB and tweek the fuel pressure while running to maintain say 13.5/1 during break in. Offsets may not be that much differrent. All you want is proper A/F for breakin. You can fine tune for drivability later.
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Car: 1991 firebird
Engine: TBI 305 (built)
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 4.10
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Hey thanks Ronny I would have never thought to adjust the fuel pressure to try to get it running initially ! ... That sounds like the best method I could think of for sure ..do u think I should use the bin I had worked on for 8 months and modify it with different SA tables etc or start from scratch ? And what bin do talk think I should pull my SA tables from to use with these heads (trick flow 175's) , flat top pistons +5cc reliefs , and a 214/218 cam ? Thanks again Nate...
Re: Tuning with the EBL
When my cam was broken in I used a stock LO3 and tweeked it from there after breakin . Actually it went CL. At 2000 rpms i presume it was at stoich but have no idea as no WB in use.
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Car: 1991 firebird
Engine: TBI 305 (built)
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 4.10
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Yea I don't think I'll be able to use a stock lo3 bin with these heads ... Idk they will prolly need slot more timing no ? Which u guess that will leave me not having to worry about knock ! ... Any suggestions on a SA table to start with or a couple that might be close for these heads ? Trick flow 175's ... Thanks... Nate !
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 600
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From: Akron, Ohio
Car: 87 Suburban 2500
Engine: 455 Wildcat ( somewhat modified ))
Transmission: TH400 ( for now )
Axle/Gears: 4.10 ( for now )
Re: Tuning with the EBL
So here's the kicker .... How do I get a decent enough tune started to where the thing will crank and run well enough so that it won't blow up and ain't pinging like crazy .... What are some things I should change from the previous tune ? Should I just start all over or modify the bin I had ? What spark table should I start with for these heads ? What do I do to VE with the cam and compression change ?
Too much advance, or too lean, you buy internal engine parts.
If it was me, I'd take the calibration you have, back off timing 5 or 8 degrees across the board, richen the VE about 10% across the board, and start it up.
Let VE Learn bring VE back in for that combination of parts. S-L-O-W-L-Y tweek timing ( one or two degrees at a time where it appears to need it ) and VE Learn again.
Should be able to get it real close in about three learns. In any case, I'd tweek nothing else until VE Learn stops making significant changes.
I would NOT change fuel pressure, because that will require that you also adjust about every fuel parameter the thing has. PE, AE, Prop Gains, VE, etc. Too complex for my still functioning single brain cell. Then, you'll have to do it all over again as the tune progresses, probably back to where it is with a few changes in VE and advance only.
AFR is a function of getting the injector parameters right. PE, AE, VE, fuel pressure, etc. and the throttle body, NOT compression ratio or cam shaft.
Timing advance is a function of rod length vs. stroke ratio, modified by burn rate and knock limitations. Too little isn't particularly harmful. Too much, is.
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I think we have two scenarios here. 1. Break in. 2. Drivability after. #1 requires a diff strategy to assure not too rich and wash down cyl's and not too lean. Hence calibrate for A/F with WB with adjustment of FP. You want to be able to quickly change A/F at first startup w/o interrupting session.
I run Edel RPMs(alum) 64cc(version 2004 cnc) on a 350 with about 10.1/1 compress. I took the LT1 iron head table compared it to alum LT4. And split the diff. From there I am at PE SA at 36 all in at about 3400 rpms. Max Sa is about 43 at cruise low load. Other areas of slightly lower load less SA blended in. Idle Sa is 22. I have no KC's
Trick flow 175's
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 600
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From: Akron, Ohio
Car: 87 Suburban 2500
Engine: 455 Wildcat ( somewhat modified ))
Transmission: TH400 ( for now )
Axle/Gears: 4.10 ( for now )
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Break in deals with cam lobes, so I never worry about so-called cylinder wash down.
Unless your *really* flooding, it's tough to do anyway, and the rings really don't care since they normally run dry anyway.
Much more important for break in, is the zinc/phosphorus content in the motor oil, and the assembly lube chosen. The cam lobes do care, a great deal.
IMHO.
To each his own..
Unless your *really* flooding, it's tough to do anyway, and the rings really don't care since they normally run dry anyway.
Much more important for break in, is the zinc/phosphorus content in the motor oil, and the assembly lube chosen. The cam lobes do care, a great deal.
IMHO.
To each his own..
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Car: 1991 firebird
Engine: TBI 305 (built)
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 4.10
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Break in deals with cam lobes, so I never worry about so-called cylinder wash down.
Unless your *really* flooding, it's tough to do anyway, and the rings really don't care since they normally run dry anyway.
Much more important for break in, is the zinc/phosphorus content in the motor oil, and the assembly lube chosen. The cam lobes do care, a great deal.
IMHO.
To each his own..
Unless your *really* flooding, it's tough to do anyway, and the rings really don't care since they normally run dry anyway.
Much more important for break in, is the zinc/phosphorus content in the motor oil, and the assembly lube chosen. The cam lobes do care, a great deal.
IMHO.
To each his own..
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Need some help now!
Got my 383 SC back together-fixed oil and vac leaks. Ran it with the new injectors-55lb lucas on 8D, eliminated the FMU. Got it idling perfect, part throttle perfect again, of course no WOT while driving. Made sure everythings good before swapping to ebl. Been really wanting to fuel accurately under boost so going to the ebl-p4.
Went thru the 3006 bin moving tables over etc changed map to 2 bar. Just ordered the TT1 wide band from you Bob, so for now using my fjo independantly on the laptop for wideband readout.
Now 2 problems.
First the ecm itself looses communication with the vehicle after 4 to 5 min.-fail mode fans on and dies, won't restart. Wait about 15 minutes and starts right up again. Can't get too far with this happening!
Second- seems like testing so far so good, however at idle.....
blm/int 128 =/- 3 or so but narrowband goes flat at 700 to 800 mv and wide band shows 12 or so. Add some revs and narrow band goes active toggling and afr above and below 14.7 and blms 128 +/-, so then looks good, runs good.
I've been able to dial in the old 8d, but lost now. If I can just keep it connected for more than 5 minutes would sure help to start!
Oh yea- the ebl I bought was a complete 730 ecm with the board already soldered in, so I know it can't be my crappy soldering abilities.........
Thanks for any and all help!!!!!
Got my 383 SC back together-fixed oil and vac leaks. Ran it with the new injectors-55lb lucas on 8D, eliminated the FMU. Got it idling perfect, part throttle perfect again, of course no WOT while driving. Made sure everythings good before swapping to ebl. Been really wanting to fuel accurately under boost so going to the ebl-p4.
Went thru the 3006 bin moving tables over etc changed map to 2 bar. Just ordered the TT1 wide band from you Bob, so for now using my fjo independantly on the laptop for wideband readout.
Now 2 problems.
First the ecm itself looses communication with the vehicle after 4 to 5 min.-fail mode fans on and dies, won't restart. Wait about 15 minutes and starts right up again. Can't get too far with this happening!
Second- seems like testing so far so good, however at idle.....
blm/int 128 =/- 3 or so but narrowband goes flat at 700 to 800 mv and wide band shows 12 or so. Add some revs and narrow band goes active toggling and afr above and below 14.7 and blms 128 +/-, so then looks good, runs good.
I've been able to dial in the old 8d, but lost now. If I can just keep it connected for more than 5 minutes would sure help to start!
Oh yea- the ebl I bought was a complete 730 ecm with the board already soldered in, so I know it can't be my crappy soldering abilities.........
Thanks for any and all help!!!!!
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From: Chasing Electrons
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Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Now 2 problems.
First the ecm itself looses communication with the vehicle after 4 to 5 min.-fail mode fans on and dies, won't restart. Wait about 15 minutes and starts right up again. Can't get too far with this happening!
Second- seems like testing so far so good, however at idle.....
blm/int 128 =/- 3 or so but narrowband goes flat at 700 to 800 mv and wide band shows 12 or so. Add some revs and narrow band goes active toggling and afr above and below 14.7 and blms 128 +/-, so then looks good, runs good.
I've been able to dial in the old 8d, but lost now. If I can just keep it connected for more than 5 minutes would sure help to start!
Oh yea- the ebl I bought was a complete 730 ecm with the board already soldered in, so I know it can't be my crappy soldering abilities.........
Thanks for any and all help!!!!!
First the ecm itself looses communication with the vehicle after 4 to 5 min.-fail mode fans on and dies, won't restart. Wait about 15 minutes and starts right up again. Can't get too far with this happening!
Second- seems like testing so far so good, however at idle.....
blm/int 128 =/- 3 or so but narrowband goes flat at 700 to 800 mv and wide band shows 12 or so. Add some revs and narrow band goes active toggling and afr above and below 14.7 and blms 128 +/-, so then looks good, runs good.
I've been able to dial in the old 8d, but lost now. If I can just keep it connected for more than 5 minutes would sure help to start!
Oh yea- the ebl I bought was a complete 730 ecm with the board already soldered in, so I know it can't be my crappy soldering abilities.........
Thanks for any and all help!!!!!
RBob.
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 600
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From: Akron, Ohio
Car: 87 Suburban 2500
Engine: 455 Wildcat ( somewhat modified ))
Transmission: TH400 ( for now )
Axle/Gears: 4.10 ( for now )
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Thing to remember, is that the absolute highest pressure point in the entire engine, is the lobe ramp on the cam, on the side that opens the valve, in a flat tappet motor.
In a roller, the pin/shaft on which the roller rides.
In both cases, the pressure here is the absolute highest as anywhere in the engine, with the possible exception of a rod bearing during a detonation event, but the rod bearing has considerably more surface area.
At the contact point of the tappet and lobe in a flat tappet engine, the pressure at high RPM gets so high as to completely squish out all of the oil and allow direct metal to metal contact. This will actually remove material at the contact point, and cause premature cam wear. A Bad Thing. ® The lifter rotates, to minimize damage, but the cam lobe has no such advantage. ( roller and flat cams are ground different in this regard )
This is why break-in oil has high zinc/phosphorus content, as did motor oils of yore.
The zinc/phosphorus provides a material that can be scraped off of the cam lobe when the oil is completely squished out, and re-plated during the rest of the cycle, ready for the next revolution.
Thanks to the EPA, there are no oils suitable for flat tappet engines anymore. That's why I add a half can of break-in oil with every oil change.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,997
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From: Bartlett, IL
Car: 92 ZR-1
Engine: LT-5
Transmission: ZF-6
Axle/Gears: SuperDana 44 4.10
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Cflick,
The LT5 is a flat tappet motor. I use a Castrol GTX Diesel oil which has the needed amount of zinc/phosphorous for flat tappet cams. Been running it for
The last 3 years and the lobes and tappers look to be in great shape. Others are using Amsoil but the GTX is less expensive and appears to work just as well.
The LT5 is a flat tappet motor. I use a Castrol GTX Diesel oil which has the needed amount of zinc/phosphorous for flat tappet cams. Been running it for
The last 3 years and the lobes and tappers look to be in great shape. Others are using Amsoil but the GTX is less expensive and appears to work just as well.
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 600
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From: Akron, Ohio
Car: 87 Suburban 2500
Engine: 455 Wildcat ( somewhat modified ))
Transmission: TH400 ( for now )
Axle/Gears: 4.10 ( for now )
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Cflick,
The LT5 is a flat tappet motor. I use a Castrol GTX Diesel oil which has the needed amount of zinc/phosphorous for flat tappet cams. Been running it for
The last 3 years and the lobes and tappers look to be in great shape. Others are using Amsoil but the GTX is less expensive and appears to work just as well.
The LT5 is a flat tappet motor. I use a Castrol GTX Diesel oil which has the needed amount of zinc/phosphorous for flat tappet cams. Been running it for
The last 3 years and the lobes and tappers look to be in great shape. Others are using Amsoil but the GTX is less expensive and appears to work just as well.
I remember that I looked at diesel oils, but can't remember why I didn't go that route.
Either lacking something a gasoline wants, or has something a gasoline doesn't want, but my still functioning brain cell just can't recall....
OTOH, my Harley calls for diesel oil, so it can't be too bad.
Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 194
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Car: '92 GMC C1500 RCSB
Engine: TBI + Vortec + EBL 383
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 3.08
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Something came to mind... I'm not 100% sure what route I'll take with the Fiero, but I'd like to try to stick with a 60º v6 and hopefully go to a 3900. I'm thinking of starting out with the 2.8 currently in the car... RBob, is it possible for you to get the parameters for the stock engine off an original ECM?
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From: Chasing Electrons
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Something came to mind... I'm not 100% sure what route I'll take with the Fiero, but I'd like to try to stick with a 60º v6 and hopefully go to a 3900. I'm thinking of starting out with the 2.8 currently in the car... RBob, is it possible for you to get the parameters for the stock engine off an original ECM?
RBob.
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Posts: 1,367
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From: Nanticoke, Pa
Car: 89 Firebird
Engine: 406 CI
Transmission: Pete K 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3:55
Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Car: '92 GMC C1500 RCSB
Engine: TBI + Vortec + EBL 383
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 3.08
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Yes, I meant the 2.8, should've said that :P I'm kinda curious how much more can be coaxed out of the little engine, another of the Fiero guys is around 200 flywheel hp, although with a custom intake, ported heads & a cam.
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,367
Likes: 0
From: Nanticoke, Pa
Car: 89 Firebird
Engine: 406 CI
Transmission: Pete K 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3:55
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Hoping someone can guide me towards an answer regarding a torque converter lock up question. I could not find it in a search.
I build 700 R4/4L60 transmissions on a regular basis, and there are 2 ways to control the electrical grounding of the lock up solenoid (in the trans pan wiring).
One setup uses a normally open 4th gear pressure switch, and the other uses a normally closed switch.
Does anyone know where I can find the setting to check (or uncheck) the flag I need?
On my car, I have a normally open switch, and want to make sure the right setting is made in the bin file to work with my trans.
I build 700 R4/4L60 transmissions on a regular basis, and there are 2 ways to control the electrical grounding of the lock up solenoid (in the trans pan wiring).
One setup uses a normally open 4th gear pressure switch, and the other uses a normally closed switch.
Does anyone know where I can find the setting to check (or uncheck) the flag I need?
On my car, I have a normally open switch, and want to make sure the right setting is made in the bin file to work with my trans.
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From: Chasing Electrons
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Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
It is the HiGrH flag:
Option Word 2 - Bit 5 - HiGrH
To figure out the setting observe the center of the main WUD display. With the car not moving, any shifter position except P & N should show D. If it shows OD then flip the flag.
The ECM uses the 4th gear switch to choose which set of TCC lockup parameters to use.
RBob.
Option Word 2 - Bit 5 - HiGrH
To figure out the setting observe the center of the main WUD display. With the car not moving, any shifter position except P & N should show D. If it shows OD then flip the flag.
The ECM uses the 4th gear switch to choose which set of TCC lockup parameters to use.
RBob.
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From: OC CA
Car: 75 Beast
Engine: 383 +EBL Flash
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 4.11 with 33"
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Need a little help with AE tuning.
Setup
383 + THM700R4 + 4:10 gear (it is a truck)
VFPR + 61lb injectors
I have acceleration bog. I have reduced AE - MAP PW to:
dMAP uSec
20 | 976.56
10 | 732.42
0 | 244.14
Wideband shows AFR dropping to 10.9 which indicates way too much fuel being commanded during AE event! Data log extract:
Need a little help dialing this one in!
//RF
Setup
383 + THM700R4 + 4:10 gear (it is a truck)
VFPR + 61lb injectors
I have acceleration bog. I have reduced AE - MAP PW to:
dMAP uSec
20 | 976.56
10 | 732.42
0 | 244.14
Wideband shows AFR dropping to 10.9 which indicates way too much fuel being commanded during AE event! Data log extract:
Code:
RUNTIME RPM MPH MAP BRO VAC VE% TPS CTS IAT I/C O2 G/S SA Rt KnkCt sPW aPW DC% Sf Ay Ae De Id Hw Pe Dc Cl Ln Fn Ac Tc Cp Eg Cel INT BLM BPC IAC AFR WB dTPS tpsAE dMAP mapAE aePW WB_0 PSI_1 0:04:52 0637 0 55 103 48 47 01 88 32 88 774 19 20 0 397 2.197 0 4 N N N N Y N N N Y Y N N N N N 0 129 123 139 56 14.3 14.6 0.4 0 0 0 0 14.6 13.4 0:04:52 0612 0 56 103 47 48 02 88 32 88 770 20 20 0 397 2.258 0 4 N N N N Y N N N Y Y N N N N N 0 129 123 138 57 14.3 14.6 0.8 0 2.5 0 0.366 14.6 13.4 0:04:52 0637 0 58 103 45 50 02 88 32 88 765 20 20 0 397 2.319 0 4 N N N N Y N N N Y Y N N N N N 0 129 123 138 57 14.3 14.6 0.8 0 3.4 0 0 14.6 13.7 0:04:52 0662 0 58 103 45 51 03 88 32 88 788 21 20 0 397 2.838 0 6 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 128 125 137 61 14.3 14.6 1.2 0 3.8 0 1.755 14.6 14 0:04:52 0725 0 59 103 43 55 08 88 32 88 792 26 22 0 397 6.042 0 14 N N Y N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 128 125 136 70 14.3 14.6 4.7 0.336 3.8 0.137 3.082 14.6 14.4 0:04:52 0762 0 65 103 38 65 13 88 32 88 810 32 21 0 397 7.263 0 18 N N Y N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 128 125 133 80 14.3 14.5 6.7 0.397 7.2 0.168 3.647 14.5 16.1 0:04:52 0900 0 73 103 30 68 15 88 32 88 823 38 20 0 397 7.294 0 21 N N Y N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 128 125 130 89 14.3 14.5 4.3 0.305 15.3 0.214 3.204 14.5 16.4 0:04:52 1012 0 74 103 29 68 15 88 32 88 836 46 19 0 397 6.256 0 21 N N Y N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 127 125 127 89 14.3 14.4 2.7 0.259 11.3 0.183 2.38 14.4 16.3 0:04:52 1150 0 72 103 31 67 15 88 32 88 876 50 22 0 397 5.341 0 20 N N Y N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 127 125 128 88 14.3 14.1 1.6 0.214 9.7 0.122 1.755 14.1 15.1 0:04:52 1262 0 68 103 35 66 15 88 32 88 903 52 23 0 397 4.242 0 17 N N Y N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 127 125 130 88 14.3 13.6 0.8 0.183 1.9 0 0.87 13.6 15 0:04:52 1287 0 66 103 37 66 15 88 32 88 925 52 23 0 397 3.998 0 17 N N Y N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 127 125 132 88 14.3 12.9 0.8 0.168 0 0 0.931 12.9 14.5 0:04:53 1287 0 64 103 39 66 15 88 32 88 934 54 24 0 397 3.967 0 17 N N Y N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 127 125 133 88 14.3 12.1 0.4 0.168 0 0 0.87 12.1 14.8 0:04:53 1312 0 63 103 40 66 15 88 32 88 947 54 24 0 397 2.991 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 126 125 134 88 14.3 11.5 0.4 0 0 0 0 11.5 14.5 0:04:53 1350 0 62 103 41 66 15 88 32 88 951 55 24 0 397 2.93 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 126 125 134 88 14.3 11.1 0.4 0 0 0 0 11.1 13.8 0:04:53 1387 0 61 103 42 66 15 88 32 88 951 58 25 0 397 2.899 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 126 125 135 88 14.3 10.9 0.4 0 0 0 0 10.9 14.2 0:04:53 1412 0 59 103 44 66 15 88 32 88 960 59 25 0 397 2.899 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 126 125 137 88 14.3 11 0.4 0 0 0 0 11 13.9 0:04:53 1450 0 58 103 45 67 15 88 32 88 951 61 25 0 397 2.869 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 126 125 137 88 14.3 11.3 0.4 0 0 0 0 11.3 13.5 0:04:53 1475 0 57 103 46 66 15 88 32 88 947 61 26 0 397 2.808 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 125 125 138 88 14.3 11.7 0.4 0 0 0 0 11.7 13.4 0:04:53 1487 0 56 103 47 66 15 88 32 88 938 61 26 0 397 2.747 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 125 125 138 88 14.3 12.2 0.4 0 0 0 0 12.2 13.3 0:04:53 1487 0 56 103 47 66 15 88 32 88 934 60 26 0 397 2.747 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 125 125 138 88 14.3 12.6 0.4 0 0 0 0 12.6 13.1 0:04:53 1475 0 55 103 48 66 15 88 32 88 929 61 26 0 397 2.777 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 125 125 138 88 14.3 13 0.4 0 0 0 0 13 12.9 0:04:53 1475 1 56 103 47 66 15 88 32 88 920 59 26 0 397 2.777 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 125 125 138 88 14.3 13.3 0.4 0 0 0 0 13.3 13.1 0:04:53 1462 1 56 103 47 66 15 88 32 88 916 60 26 0 397 2.716 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 124 125 138 88 14.3 13.6 0.4 0 0 0 0 13.6 13.5 0:04:53 1437 1 56 103 47 65 15 88 32 88 898 58 26 0 397 2.747 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 124 125 138 88 14.3 13.8 0.4 0 0 0 0 13.8 13.8 0:04:53 1437 1 57 103 46 65 15 88 32 88 894 60 26 0 397 2.747 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 124 125 138 88 14.3 14 0.4 0 0.3 0 0 14 13.7 0:04:53 1425 1 58 103 45 66 15 88 32 88 881 58 25 0 397 2.777 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 124 125 138 88 14.3 14.2 0.4 0 0.6 0 0 14.2 13.7 0:04:53 1412 3 57 103 46 66 15 88 32 88 850 57 25 0 397 2.808 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 124 125 137 88 14.3 14.3 0.4 0 0.3 0 0 14.3 13.6 0:04:53 1400 3 58 103 45 66 15 88 32 88 823 56 25 0 397 2.808 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 123 125 137 88 14.3 14.4 0.4 0 0 0 0 14.4 14.2 0:04:54 1387 3 58 103 45 66 15 88 32 88 783 57 25 0 397 2.808 0 12 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 123 124 137 87 14.3 14.5 0.4 0 0.9 0 0 14.5 13.9 0:04:54 1412 3 59 103 44 65 15 88 32 88 704 57 25 0 397 2.777 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 123 124 137 87 14.3 14.6 0.4 0 0.9 0 0 14.6 13.8 0:04:54 1400 3 59 103 44 66 15 88 32 88 336 56 25 0 397 2.96 0 13 N N N N N N N N Y Y N N N N N 1 123 124 137 87 14.3 14.6 0.4 0 0.9 0 0 14.6 13.8
//RF
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From: OC CA
Car: 75 Beast
Engine: 383 +EBL Flash
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 4.11 with 33"
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Thank Rbob
VE tables are within +4 -2 over most active cells. Still dialing in VE tables. I'll take out -15% from lower cells (0 to 12.5%) of the dTPS PW table to begin with and see how it likes it. Current values in 'AE-TPS PW' table are:
//RF
VE tables are within +4 -2 over most active cells. Still dialing in VE tables. I'll take out -15% from lower cells (0 to 12.5%) of the dTPS PW table to begin with and see how it likes it. Current values in 'AE-TPS PW' table are:
Code:
dTPS% uSec 50.0 5859.37 46.9 5371.09 43.7 5126.95 40.6 4882.81 37.5 4638.67 34.3 4394.53 31.2 4150.39 28.1 3906.25 25.0 3417.97 21.9 2990.72 18.8 2563.48 15.6 2197.27 12.5 1953.12 9.4 1708.98 6.2 1464.84 3.1 1098.63 0.0 610.35
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
I'm having some trouble getting my tune figured out. It's not horrible but it's deffinatly lacking rbob has been helping me through emails but I'm going to post a zip of a recent log of my past few ve learns from this past weekend as well as my most recent ve learn.bin. The learns have been improving the driveability but my ve tables seem very rough even after 9 learns it has weird highs and lows in odd places. It also almost stalls and sometimes does when coming to a stop. I havn't spent much time focusing anywhere else besides the ve tables because I cant seem to get them squared away.
Here's the build
l31 vortec long block with 1.6rr
gmpp tbi intake with bored sbc tbi and 80pph injectors at 14psi
long tube headers no cat with flowmaster 10
electric fans
Here's my odd tables.
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...psc8f7404c.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps9287822f.jpg
Here's the build
l31 vortec long block with 1.6rr
gmpp tbi intake with bored sbc tbi and 80pph injectors at 14psi
long tube headers no cat with flowmaster 10
electric fans
Here's my odd tables.
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...psc8f7404c.jpg
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps9287822f.jpg
Last edited by whatif3387; Oct 14, 2013 at 12:05 PM.
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Car: '92 GMC C1500 RCSB
Engine: TBI + Vortec + EBL 383
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 3.08
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I had similar low rpm issues with mine, found that manually smoothing them, then going back with a learn seemed to help... without smoothing the idle would be too erratic to do any kind of learn in those areas.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
I understand I will have to do some smoothing to the lower rpm/map area of the low ve tables. I assumed I should wait to do this until I was done with my learns all together. The angle of the screen shots its almost hard to tell unless you actually open the bin and rotate them around but in the high and low tables there really is some strange sharp peaks and valleys nothing like I've seen browsing the forums looking at other peoples tables. I know everyones will be different but my tables are really strange looking.
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From: Chasing Electrons
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Check the image of the low VE table. The highlighted area should be leveled out. This area of low RPM and MAP can't be learned in as it is never hit. About halfway through Intro to Tuning Part 2 on our site has info on this.
As for the peaks and valleys, I'm not sure why the VE tables are so far off. But as long as the tune is getting better, it is what it is. At the same time there may be mechanical issues. Such as fluctuating fuel delivery, valve adjustment, ignition issues.
I know I've had more then my fair share of fuel delivery issues. And do they mess up a tune.
It may also be that it just needs more time in VE learns to pull it together. I know from experience that if there isn't a good base line to start with, it can take some time to get the fueling in line.
RBob.
As for the peaks and valleys, I'm not sure why the VE tables are so far off. But as long as the tune is getting better, it is what it is. At the same time there may be mechanical issues. Such as fluctuating fuel delivery, valve adjustment, ignition issues.
I know I've had more then my fair share of fuel delivery issues. And do they mess up a tune.
It may also be that it just needs more time in VE learns to pull it together. I know from experience that if there isn't a good base line to start with, it can take some time to get the fueling in line.
RBob.
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From: Akron, Ohio
Car: 87 Suburban 2500
Engine: 455 Wildcat ( somewhat modified ))
Transmission: TH400 ( for now )
Axle/Gears: 4.10 ( for now )
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Those tables were from my 9th learn after I made some changes you mentioned to the base tune. I'll continue doing learns whats a good way to tell when I've reached my limit. Based on how its driving or when I stop seeing corrections in the wud under ve?
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From: Rochester,NY
Car: 1993 Caprice wagon "Shammoo"
Engine: tpi'd 406, with P4 ebl EBL 730 ECM
Transmission: custom "4L65" swap.
Axle/Gears: 3.42:1 with posi
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I can't say I've ever done a VE learn yet that wasn't immediately followed by some manual smoothing. Extreme peaks and valleys are just suspicious to me, so I see if they are repeated in subsequent learns, As a result thus far, I have very smooth tables. Learns aren't making gross change any more.
One thing I have found is that we tend to think of "idle" as a single point on the graph. That's not really the case. It's an area On the map, not a point.
For my bin I loosely define that area as as my ideal 900 rpm +/-200rpm and for map 55kpa +/-10 Kpa. I keep change to a minimum on the graph within that border, and it seems to help provide a smooth(er) idle for my engine.
I also. I watch the wideband AFR within it, and modify for general rich/lean conditions as they are observed or VE learned.
There are also a few "sneaky" conditions that VE learns can happen which can be counter productive as well. Make sure Highway mode is off, and there seems to be a few flags which also affect VE learn times as well. Rbob, can likely define those conditions easily.
One thing I have found is that we tend to think of "idle" as a single point on the graph. That's not really the case. It's an area On the map, not a point.
For my bin I loosely define that area as as my ideal 900 rpm +/-200rpm and for map 55kpa +/-10 Kpa. I keep change to a minimum on the graph within that border, and it seems to help provide a smooth(er) idle for my engine.
I also. I watch the wideband AFR within it, and modify for general rich/lean conditions as they are observed or VE learned.
There are also a few "sneaky" conditions that VE learns can happen which can be counter productive as well. Make sure Highway mode is off, and there seems to be a few flags which also affect VE learn times as well. Rbob, can likely define those conditions easily.
Last edited by lakeffect2; Oct 15, 2013 at 07:30 PM.
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From: Akron, Ohio
Car: 87 Suburban 2500
Engine: 455 Wildcat ( somewhat modified ))
Transmission: TH400 ( for now )
Axle/Gears: 4.10 ( for now )
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I can't say I've ever done a VE learn yet that wasn't immediately followed by some manual smoothing. Extreme peaks and valleys are just suspicious to me, so I see if they are repeated in subsequent learns, As a result thus far, I have very smooth tables. Learns aren't making gross change any more.
That way, I'm not undoing what the engine wants with what *I* think it should want.
If the engine changes its mind ( for whatever reason ) a subsequent learn will fix that.
( you're never really done, until it's "close enough" )
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From: Bartlett, IL
Car: 92 ZR-1
Engine: LT-5
Transmission: ZF-6
Axle/Gears: SuperDana 44 4.10
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Same here, with the caveat that I don't touch any cell that the Learn *has* touched.
That way, I'm not undoing what the engine wants with what *I* think it should want.
If the engine changes its mind ( for whatever reason ) a subsequent learn will fix that.
( you're never really done, until it's "close enough" )
That way, I'm not undoing what the engine wants with what *I* think it should want.
If the engine changes its mind ( for whatever reason ) a subsequent learn will fix that.
( you're never really done, until it's "close enough" )
Do you guys use the smoothing functions in TP or EBL? And if so, what percentage do you start with and which do you end up w? What's your process if you have one?
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 617
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From: Rochester,NY
Car: 1993 Caprice wagon "Shammoo"
Engine: tpi'd 406, with P4 ebl EBL 730 ECM
Transmission: custom "4L65" swap.
Axle/Gears: 3.42:1 with posi
Re: Tuning with the EBL
First off Dom, Let me thank you for NOT posting that LT5 photo again. For some odd reason , there's always a puddle under me on the floor right after I see it.
I do the smoothing MANUALLY, in TunerPro Rt, for no other reason than I likely want to make changes to other tables/fields as well, So TP is handy for thta purpose.
. I haven't learned my lesson yet about making one change at a time, so I usually take a whack at "improving" a few things while I'm in the program. Sometimes I strike out, and go back to overthink the process again with a beer or two.
Dave.
I do the smoothing MANUALLY, in TunerPro Rt, for no other reason than I likely want to make changes to other tables/fields as well, So TP is handy for thta purpose.
. I haven't learned my lesson yet about making one change at a time, so I usually take a whack at "improving" a few things while I'm in the program. Sometimes I strike out, and go back to overthink the process again with a beer or two.
Dave.
Last edited by lakeffect2; Oct 15, 2013 at 07:35 PM.
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From: Bartlett, IL
Car: 92 ZR-1
Engine: LT-5
Transmission: ZF-6
Axle/Gears: SuperDana 44 4.10
Re: Tuning with the EBL
LE,
I'm like you. A) can't leave well enough alone, B) make several changes simultaneously. However, I think I have been able to develop an ability to discriminate and look for those changes in different areas of the tune,
C) Being Italian it's tough to not have function following form so it's tough not to believe that a smooth VE or SA curve doesn't lead to a smooth running motor.
Just to whet your appetite some more, here's a vid of the exhaust system we installed using Z06 exhaust control flappers actuated using engine vacuum or the inverse depending on your perspective. Tones down the cabin drone, but allows full blast WOT.
Z06Tips.mp4
I'm like you. A) can't leave well enough alone, B) make several changes simultaneously. However, I think I have been able to develop an ability to discriminate and look for those changes in different areas of the tune,
C) Being Italian it's tough to not have function following form so it's tough not to believe that a smooth VE or SA curve doesn't lead to a smooth running motor.
Just to whet your appetite some more, here's a vid of the exhaust system we installed using Z06 exhaust control flappers actuated using engine vacuum or the inverse depending on your perspective. Tones down the cabin drone, but allows full blast WOT.
Z06Tips.mp4
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Im having some issues with my setup and need some advice. My car runs rich Ive done about 16 VE learns now and its getting a little better. But now in certain areas of my VE tables the numbers are getting close to zero( got 4s and 5's) and its not leaning it out anymore. Is there something else that I need to change. Car ran decent before I switched to the EBL and now its just a pig. Its a 383 with 10.3:1 compression 113 heads with larger valves comp cam .510 .510 230/244 dur at 112 centerline edlebrock tpi intake. stock fuel pump with AFPR and 30# injectors. VE learns have been -10 all over the normal areas for all runs not sure whats going on. I've also tried playing with the BPC vs vac table again and no change what am I missing? Thanks
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From: Chasing Electrons
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Assuming the fuel pressure is at 43.5 psi, the BPC vs Vacuum table should be 152. This is 20% lower then a stock 350 with 22#/hr injectors. So also need to reduce the AE and proportional gains by 20%. The Intro to Tuning Part 2 page on our web site has a bunch of information in setting up a base tune.
The path through the VE table where the values are very low is also the path that is easily affected by the AE.
RBob.
The path through the VE table where the values are very low is also the path that is easily affected by the AE.
RBob.
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From: San Diego(now)/ Springfield, Oh(orig)
Car: 1991 firebird XS
Engine: 5.7 tbi
Transmission: stock 700r4
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.23
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Anyone here in san diego area that knows anything about tuning these ebl systems? im in serious trouble...i dont get any of this tuning stuff, i have read and referenced everything i can find and for some reason, 2+2 does NOT equal 4...thx
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Car: '92 GMC C1500 RCSB
Engine: TBI + Vortec + EBL 383
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 3.08
Re: Tuning with the EBL
What do you need to know? RBob is the EBL guy (like... he's Bob from DynamicEFI), so he can answer all them EBL questions.
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From: Chasing Electrons
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Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
There is a TPI tuning book that some have recommended as being a good read. Can't recall the title and author. Although I think I know where to find it.
It is in this thread:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/dfi-...549-books.html
I listed the thread as there are other recommendations.
RBob.
Supreme Member
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Bartlett, IL
Car: 92 ZR-1
Engine: LT-5
Transmission: ZF-6
Axle/Gears: SuperDana 44 4.10
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I think all of us have been there.
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From: San Diego(now)/ Springfield, Oh(orig)
Car: 1991 firebird XS
Engine: 5.7 tbi
Transmission: stock 700r4
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.23
Re: Tuning with the EBL
okay, so i got the car to start, and i think i am way behind, i am really rich, like 13.0 at idle,
here are a list of what the engine consists of: 454 tbi w/ 80lb/hr inj, 1in tb spacer, 350ci w/ flt top pistons, xe 268 112l/s 268 dur 477int/480exh, 9.5 c/r 700r4(stock), headman headers/y-pipe, hollowed cat 2.5in exhaust to flowmaster 70, no A.I.R. system, stock 91 firebird map, o2, egr, etc. base timing is 12 btdc and open air element
here are a list of what the engine consists of: 454 tbi w/ 80lb/hr inj, 1in tb spacer, 350ci w/ flt top pistons, xe 268 112l/s 268 dur 477int/480exh, 9.5 c/r 700r4(stock), headman headers/y-pipe, hollowed cat 2.5in exhaust to flowmaster 70, no A.I.R. system, stock 91 firebird map, o2, egr, etc. base timing is 12 btdc and open air element
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2011
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From: San Diego(now)/ Springfield, Oh(orig)
Car: 1991 firebird XS
Engine: 5.7 tbi
Transmission: stock 700r4
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.23
Re: Tuning with the EBL
okay, so i am actually at 12.1 afr
how do i adjust the injector pulse width?
how do i adjust the injector pulse width?
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From: Chasing Electrons
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Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
The "BPC - BPC vs VAC" table is where to start.
From there see our Intro to Tuning Part 2:
http://www.dynamicefi.com/Tune_Intro2.php
After the BPC table is set up, adjust the Proportional gains and the AE. Both covered in the above link. Be sure to adjust the Initial SA in the BIN.
RBob.
From there see our Intro to Tuning Part 2:
http://www.dynamicefi.com/Tune_Intro2.php
After the BPC table is set up, adjust the Proportional gains and the AE. Both covered in the above link. Be sure to adjust the Initial SA in the BIN.
RBob.
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 61
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From: San Diego(now)/ Springfield, Oh(orig)
Car: 1991 firebird XS
Engine: 5.7 tbi
Transmission: stock 700r4
Axle/Gears: 9 bolt 3.23
Re: Tuning with the EBL
The "BPC - BPC vs VAC" table is where to start.
From there see our Intro to Tuning Part 2:
http://www.dynamicefi.com/Tune_Intro2.php
After the BPC table is set up, adjust the Proportional gains and the AE. Both covered in the above link. Be sure to adjust the Initial SA in the BIN.
RBob.
From there see our Intro to Tuning Part 2:
http://www.dynamicefi.com/Tune_Intro2.php
After the BPC table is set up, adjust the Proportional gains and the AE. Both covered in the above link. Be sure to adjust the Initial SA in the BIN.
RBob.