Tuning with the EBL
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I need some help understanding injector flow rate. After doing my the calculations my 24 lb injectors at a given HP I set that the flow to 25#. The consequence of this was I needed to pull nearly 10 points uniformly out of my VE tables from what a EBL-p4_3000.bin. I can do this but being this far off with a bigger motor (383) makes me wonder how out of whack the whole BIN will be like AE and PE. Is there a way to change the BPW such that the VE changes are less dramatic.
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Car: 87 Suburban 2500
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
If the VE table never hits 100%, nor 0%, and the injector duty cycle is above 0 at idle, and seldom if ever exceeds about 85%, then you're fine ! It's possible that the VE table is a true reflection of the percent of theoretical maximum air pumped through the engine. Ideally, that's exactly what it is, though seldom actually achieved.
My TBI VE ( started life as a 455 ) hits lows around 3-4% and highs in the mid to upper 90's at the fringes. Reasonable, naturally aspirated.
The engine likes it, so who am I to say otherwise ?
Remember, the VE table is a measure of AIR the engine is pumping through, not fuel.
The fuel is based on VE, and commanded AFR, so it's easy to fall into thinking VE is fuel when it is not.
Re: Tuning with the EBL
^ Of course, if the VE table never hits 100% in his case, I don't see any real problem with it pulling out 10% across the board. I was just saying, my midrange VE tables are much lower than the stock bins, but added a bunch up in the high rpm range. I just didn't want the guy who originally posed the question to lower his BPW a bunch and then up maxing out the VE tables by 4500 RPM. But if it's pulling 10% at WOT, then by all means, drop the BPW a bit and see if things don't fall in line a bit easier.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Had a great week end of tuning with my new EBL P4. I was able on Saturday to drive for 4 hours on country roads and was able to get to 0s and 1s across the board. Sunday was cool and foggy and my tune went uniformly 5 pts rich. I did not change any thing and by the end of the day got back to 0s and 1s. This points to IAT/CTS blend?
Some time ago Rbob posted to examples of the table based on IAT placement.
"It is used to mix together the CTS and the IAT values based on engine airflow. As the airflow increases the amount of CTS is reduced. Here are two sets of values. The first table (iat-cts1) is the stock EBL values, which are based on an underhood snorkel aircleaner. Basically a stock setup with the IAT in the aircleaner, and a stock TBI intake with a water jacket.
The second table (iat-cts2) is from a performance engine. It has the air ducted from the cowl sealed off from the engine. There is a small water jacket under the plenum. In this setup the IAT sensor is placed behind the front grill.
Very nearly the same table is used on another vehicle. In this vehicle the air is picked up from in front of the radiator, with the IAT located in this airbox. There is no added manifold heat, and it is a port injected engine."
I have a IAT in the underside of the TPI plenum in a very hot engine compartment.
The example that heavily favors the CTS seems like the starting point for me?
Thx Dave
Some time ago Rbob posted to examples of the table based on IAT placement.
"It is used to mix together the CTS and the IAT values based on engine airflow. As the airflow increases the amount of CTS is reduced. Here are two sets of values. The first table (iat-cts1) is the stock EBL values, which are based on an underhood snorkel aircleaner. Basically a stock setup with the IAT in the aircleaner, and a stock TBI intake with a water jacket.
The second table (iat-cts2) is from a performance engine. It has the air ducted from the cowl sealed off from the engine. There is a small water jacket under the plenum. In this setup the IAT sensor is placed behind the front grill.
Very nearly the same table is used on another vehicle. In this vehicle the air is picked up from in front of the radiator, with the IAT located in this airbox. There is no added manifold heat, and it is a port injected engine."
I have a IAT in the underside of the TPI plenum in a very hot engine compartment.
The example that heavily favors the CTS seems like the starting point for me?
Thx Dave
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
So I am looking at the data from my most recent track outing and noticed some weirdness in the 1/4 graph. Other than a little AE work that I have to do, does anyone have an idea on what is causing my AFR to jump around so much or is that normal? For fuel I have the following:
The other lean phases when in gear are quite strange since they are not associated to a specific RPM range. Since MAP & TPS can be assumed as a constant in this run (at least between shifts), I'm still wondering if your fuel pressure is completely consistent. Might wanna add the FP transducer for the next log. Maybe there's also a problem with a delay (vac line delay valve) or filter value (BPC filter, in the cal) regarding the VRFPR.
No clue whether the AE - RPM Multiplier % applies here (AE decays out?).
Just some thoughts..
Greetz
edit: with 'lean' i was referring to the inconsistent (and yeah, slightly lean) AFRs
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
One more specific question:
I have a specific data set that shows it's in CL and AE at the same time.
I thought with an AFR other than 14.7 it would go out of CL? ... or is AE (and DE) only used to richen it up (lean it out) to reach the CL target of 14.7 and I was all wrong on that occurrence up to now!? I always thought it's supposed to be slightly richer than that on AE, or is the higher AFR only for PE operation?
Because in the AFR column it shows 14.7, that's the commanded AFR right?
Anyone ready to shed some light on this, thanks in advance
I have a specific data set that shows it's in CL and AE at the same time.
I thought with an AFR other than 14.7 it would go out of CL? ... or is AE (and DE) only used to richen it up (lean it out) to reach the CL target of 14.7 and I was all wrong on that occurrence up to now!? I always thought it's supposed to be slightly richer than that on AE, or is the higher AFR only for PE operation?
Because in the AFR column it shows 14.7, that's the commanded AFR right?
Anyone ready to shed some light on this, thanks in advance
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Correct, that is the commanded AFR.
You may be getting AE & PE mixed up. AE, acceleration enrichment, comes into play as the throttle opens or the load increases.
DE, deceleration enleanment, is the opposite of AE. It reduces the injector PW on a closing throttle.
PE, power enrichment, is when the ECM goes open loop and commands a richer AFR. And usually adds some SA.
RBob.
You may be getting AE & PE mixed up. AE, acceleration enrichment, comes into play as the throttle opens or the load increases.
DE, deceleration enleanment, is the opposite of AE. It reduces the injector PW on a closing throttle.
PE, power enrichment, is when the ECM goes open loop and commands a richer AFR. And usually adds some SA.
RBob.
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From: Austria
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Hmm yeah seems I mixed that open loop part into AE & DE.. So you want stoichiometric mixture on both AE & DE and stay CL, and just richer on PE (OL). Got that right now? Thx for clarification. So target is to tune in AE & DE to reach stoich!?
Last edited by ownor; Oct 1, 2012 at 08:56 AM.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Stoich is rarely if ever a target for me, it's for lab experiments only.
Your engine is not a lab experiment, it must run in the real world, under a wide variety of conditions.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
IMHO........
If the VE table never hits 100%, nor 0%, and the injector duty cycle is above 0 at idle, and seldom if ever exceeds about 85%, then you're fine ! It's possible that the VE table is a true reflection of the percent of theoretical maximum air pumped through the engine. Ideally, that's exactly what it is, though seldom actually achieved.
My TBI VE ( started life as a 455 ) hits lows around 3-4% and highs in the mid to upper 90's at the fringes. Reasonable, naturally aspirated.
The engine likes it, so who am I to say otherwise ?
Remember, the VE table is a measure of AIR the engine is pumping through, not fuel.
The fuel is based on VE, and commanded AFR, so it's easy to fall into thinking VE is fuel when it is not.
If the VE table never hits 100%, nor 0%, and the injector duty cycle is above 0 at idle, and seldom if ever exceeds about 85%, then you're fine ! It's possible that the VE table is a true reflection of the percent of theoretical maximum air pumped through the engine. Ideally, that's exactly what it is, though seldom actually achieved.
My TBI VE ( started life as a 455 ) hits lows around 3-4% and highs in the mid to upper 90's at the fringes. Reasonable, naturally aspirated.
The engine likes it, so who am I to say otherwise ?
Remember, the VE table is a measure of AIR the engine is pumping through, not fuel.
The fuel is based on VE, and commanded AFR, so it's easy to fall into thinking VE is fuel when it is not.
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From: Austria
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
xch3no2, so how does it stay in CL when AE or DE is active? Is the aePW just getting added to whatever PW is calculated at that cloosed loop cycle?
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Check out the AE section.
http://dynamicefi.com/Tune_Intro2.php
Info in here on AE
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/sear...archid=5437171
http://dynamicefi.com/Tune_Intro2.php
Info in here on AE
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/sear...archid=5437171
Last edited by Ronny; Oct 1, 2012 at 02:25 PM.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Good call on the Intro to Tuning Pt2. I guess I could and should have come up with that myself, thanks on the pointer! The search link didn't work though (what keywords did you use?).
The Intro2 says DE is normally open loop... ... which seems reasonable, but then again I'm not sure how AE could be done in CL. I'll check again on the log if what I think I saw is correct. Thx
The Intro2 says DE is normally open loop...
You can un-check the forced open loop during decel option to do a VE Learn. However, since prop gains will then be active and the AFR will get leaned out some. It is easy to get surging during decel. This surging is why the decel is open loop in the provided calibrations.
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I'm not sure how AE could be done in CL.
Maybe RBob can post the formula to calc AE?
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
trying to read up and learn about this and i know this is a stupid wuestion to most of you guys but what is AE and VE? can someone break down the acronyms for me. I know what ING and BLM is alreay. WUD assuming that measn whats up display...
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Last edited by BADAZZ71; Oct 5, 2012 at 08:29 AM.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
I am presently using a manual switch to control the cooling fans on my Jeep and want to use the EBL PCM to control the fans. I have two fans in a Jeep with chevy 350. The fans came out of a camaro, 94 ish I think. Can I run both fans at the same time with the PCM and where do I go in tunner pro to set the temp on and off setting.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
I am presently using a manual switch to control the cooling fans on my Jeep and want to use the EBL PCM to control the fans. I have two fans in a Jeep with chevy 350. The fans came out of a camaro, 94 ish I think. Can I run both fans at the same time with the PCM and where do I go in tunner pro to set the temp on and off setting.
Check the diagram here (scroll down to fan) http://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_Drawings.php
Read the document on the included CD that describes the flags and tables to look at/change... The fan should come on at x temp, go off at a certain vehicle speed, on with ac, forced on at another temp...
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Check the diagram here (scroll down to fan) http://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_Drawings.php
Read the document on the included CD that describes the flags and tables to look at/change... The fan should come on at x temp, go off at a certain vehicle speed, on with ac, forced on at another temp...
Read the document on the included CD that describes the flags and tables to look at/change... The fan should come on at x temp, go off at a certain vehicle speed, on with ac, forced on at another temp...
Ok had to put forth a little effort and went back and read your post again. Thanks for "leading the DA (bumb ***) to water".
Last edited by mike327; Oct 7, 2012 at 08:10 AM. Reason: DA problem
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Fan - Upper/Lower CTS. (upper is the on temp in celcius, lower is off temp)
Last edited by BADAZZ71; Oct 7, 2012 at 09:44 AM.
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Still fighting my miss up top in the RPM range at WOT. Note the 100% VE line, and the 0 PW lines. What's going on here:
Also, RBob, see the missing comma in the header between Cv and CEL? IDK if everyone's dump log is like this. Not a big deal, but should also be an easy fix too.
Code:
RUNTIME,RPM,MPH,MAP,BRO,VAC,VE%,TPS,CTS,IAT,I/C,O2,Flw,SA,Rt,KnkCt,sPW,aPW,DC%,Sf,Ay,Ae,De,Id,Hw,Pe,Dc,Cl,Ln,F1,F2,Ac,Tc,Cp,Eg,Pt,CvCel,INT,BLM,IAC,AFR,WB,dTPS,tpsAE,dMAP,mapAE,aePW, AFR_0, 00:07:21,4925, 60, 97,102, 5, 99,100, 84, 32, 35,1071,255,34, 0,51077, 9.674, 0.00, 79,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,11.5, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 11.5, 00:07:21,4850, 60, 96,102, 5, 99,100, 84, 32, 35,1040,255,34, 0,51077, 9.644, 0.00, 77,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,11.7, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 11.7, 00:07:21,4925, 61, 97,102, 5, 99,100, 84, 32, 35,1035,255,34, 0,51077, 9.674, 0.00, 79,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,11.6, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 11.6, 00:07:21,5050, 62, 97,102, 5, 98,100, 84, 31, 34,1071,255,34, 0,51077, 9.644, 0.00, 81,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,11.6, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 11.6, 00:07:21,5100, 62, 96,102, 5, 98,100, 84, 31, 34,1075,255,34, 0,51077, 9.613, 0.00, 81,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,11.4, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 11.4, 00:07:21,5175, 63, 96,102, 5, 98,100, 84, 31, 34,1027,255,34, 0,51077, 9.613, 0.00, 82,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,11.7, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 11.7, 00:07:21,5125, 64, 96,102, 5, 98,100, 84, 31, 34,1040,255,34, 0,51077, 9.674, 0.00, 82,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,11.7, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 11.7, 00:07:21,5150, 64, 96,102, 5, 98,100, 84, 31, 34,1062,255,34, 0,51077, 9.674, 0.00, 83,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,11.8, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 11.8, 00:07:21,5300, 65, 96,102, 5, 98,100, 84, 31, 34,1075,255,34, 0,51077, 9.674, 0.00, 85,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,11.8, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 11.8, 00:07:21,5200, 65, 96,102, 5, 98,100, 84, 31, 34,1040,255,34, 0,51077, 9.674, 0.00, 83,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,11.9, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 11.9, 00:07:21,5312, 66, 96,102, 5,100,100, 84, 31, 34,1027,255,29, 0,51077, 9.735, 0.00, 86,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,11.5, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 11.5, 00:07:21,5050, 66, 96,102, 5, 98,100, 84, 31, 34,1075,255,30, 0,51077, 0.000, 0.00, 0,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,11.1, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 11.1, 00:07:21,5400, 66, 96,102, 5, 98,100, 85, 31, 34,1071,255,32, 0,51077, 9.674, 0.00, 87,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,14.2, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 14.2, 00:07:21,5225, 67, 96,102, 6, 98,100, 85, 31, 34,1031,255,30, 0,51077, 0.000, 0.00, 0,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,12.0, 0.4, 0.000, 0.3, 0.000, 0.000, 12.0, 00:07:21,5250, 67, 96,102, 6, 98,100, 85, 31, 34,1035,255,31, 0,51077, 9.674, 0.00, 84,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,14.1, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 14.1, 00:07:21,5450, 68, 96,102, 6, 98,100, 85, 31, 34,1071,255,32, 0,51077, 9.644, 0.00, 87,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,12.3, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 12.3, 00:07:21,5450, 69, 96,102, 6, 99,100, 85, 31, 34,1075,255,33, 0,51077, 9.644, 0.00, 87,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N,N,N,N,N,Y,N,N,N, 1,128,128,145,12.0,11.8, 0.4, 0.000, 0.0, 0.000, 0.000, 11.8, RUNTIME,RPM,MPH,MAP,BRO,VAC,VE%,TPS,CTS,IAT,I/C,O2,Flw,SA,Rt,KnkCt,sPW,aPW,DC%,Sf,Ay,Ae,De,Id,Hw,Pe,Dc,Cl,Ln,F1,F2,Ac,Tc,Cp,Eg,Pt,CvCel,INT,BLM,IAC,AFR,WB,dTPS,tpsAE,dMAP,mapAE,aePW, AFR_0,
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
Still fighting my miss up top in the RPM range at WOT. Note the 100% VE line, and the 0 PW lines. What's going on here:
(snip... see above)
Also, RBob, see the missing comma in the header between Cv and CEL? IDK if everyone's dump log is like this. Not a big deal, but should also be an easy fix too.
(snip... see above)
Also, RBob, see the missing comma in the header between Cv and CEL? IDK if everyone's dump log is like this. Not a big deal, but should also be an easy fix too.
Notice how the SA also drops off in that area. From 34* to 29* matches the 85.5% of SA value that is used in the default calibration. If the RPM & MPH values in the calibration are still set high, there may be an issue with the distributor.
The RPM, SA & injector PW's are calculated 80 times a second, with the EBL/WUD capturing data at 17 times a second. So not all events are shown.
Yes to the missing comma. We have it fixed but haven't released the newer WUD. The main reason is that we changed the large text display of injector DC% (right-center), to the commanded AFR. Which is more useful.
But we also know that many folks will think that that is the actual AFR, not the commanded. So we are still debating about what to do. Maybe even change it back to the DC%.
RBob.
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I'll get those files to you ASAP. Fuel cut and SA reduction are lower than the stock bins, but well higher than my problem area.
Are you saying that the sample rate and ECM clock rate are such that a certain random sample may not actually have a calc'd PW?
I kinda like seeing commanded AFR right next to my WB AFR. At the track I "fudge" the PE commanded AFR numbers to dial in my actual AFR for the day.
Are you saying that the sample rate and ECM clock rate are such that a certain random sample may not actually have a calc'd PW?
I kinda like seeing commanded AFR right next to my WB AFR. At the track I "fudge" the PE commanded AFR numbers to dial in my actual AFR for the day.
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Re: Tuning with the EBL
I'll get those files to you ASAP. Fuel cut and SA reduction are lower than the stock bins, but well higher than my problem area.
Are you saying that the sample rate and ECM clock rate are such that a certain random sample may not actually have a calc'd PW?
I kinda like seeing commanded AFR right next to my WB AFR. At the track I "fudge" the PE commanded AFR numbers to dial in my actual AFR for the day.
Are you saying that the sample rate and ECM clock rate are such that a certain random sample may not actually have a calc'd PW?
I kinda like seeing commanded AFR right next to my WB AFR. At the track I "fudge" the PE commanded AFR numbers to dial in my actual AFR for the day.
Yes, the ECM is doing the minor loop calculations at 80 time per second. The EBL/WUD is capturing data at 17 times a second. So things can occur that we don't always see directly.
It is possible to data log at 320 times a second, which is the proper rate to capture everything. But the volume of data would be overwhelming. So with it as it is, need to sorta' look at the big picture to see what is going on.
The lean spikes along with the reduction in SA are items we did see directly. Which point to what is going on. I received the logs and responded, the distributor reference pulses are a bit erratic. Which is causing the issue with the fuel cut and SA reduction.
Please note, this post is for everyone that is running EFI. It points to the limitations of data logging, along with items to look for. As of this time I know of no logging systems that are as fast as required to capture everything.
RBob.
P.S. I'll email out the newer EBL P4 Flash WUD to you shortly. There are some other minor changes, mostly in the Dump Log area.
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Axle/Gears: 3.73-Dana 60
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Is this a good time to suggest a choke indicating light in the WUD?
I've never really needed one because I set the timers, and it's such a short time period. I just thought it would be helpful to some.
JR
I've never really needed one because I set the timers, and it's such a short time period. I just thought it would be helpful to some.
JR
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
From: Akron, Ohio
Car: 87 Suburban 2500
Engine: 455 Wildcat ( somewhat modified ))
Transmission: TH400 ( for now )
Axle/Gears: 4.10 ( for now )
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Have you thought about setting up an EBL wiki?
I'm sure you've answered many questions a lot more than once, and this thread is pretty hard to sort through to find an answer.
I'm sure you've answered many questions a lot more than once, and this thread is pretty hard to sort through to find an answer.
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
From: Akron, Ohio
Car: 87 Suburban 2500
Engine: 455 Wildcat ( somewhat modified ))
Transmission: TH400 ( for now )
Axle/Gears: 4.10 ( for now )
Re: Tuning with the EBL
The main reason is that we changed the large text display of injector DC% (right-center), to the commanded AFR. Which is more useful.
But we also know that many folks will think that that is the actual AFR, not the commanded. So we are still debating about what to do. Maybe even change it back to the DC%.
RBob.
But we also know that many folks will think that that is the actual AFR, not the commanded. So we are still debating about what to do. Maybe even change it back to the DC%.
RBob.
( in case you didn't notice, I like configurable options )
How about nothing at all if nothing is configured ? ( no default )
That way, you know what it is, because you had to configure it that way !
Re: Tuning with the EBL
OR run have forum that is specifically for EBL.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 952
Likes: 2
From: Austria
Car: 84 TA / 89 Formula
Engine: LS1 / L03
Transmission: T56 / 700R4
Axle/Gears: 3.73 / 3.27
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I agree towards the wiki/info database. There's soo much info out there but just wildly scattered. At times i feel reluctant to post a question because i'm sure it has been answered before, but i can't find it or end up not spending time to do a thorough search.
I have some features in mind i'd love to see in it, but let me think some more about it. One that very quickly comes to mind, for me at least, is some kind to have the WUD automatically identify which COM port is open. The COM port of my RS232-USB converter changes every time and i hate looking through 3-4 COM ports or opening up the hardware manager to find the right one when in car.
Another one, maybe some kind of integrated way, or seperate tool, to export the csv to an excel sheet, with a user-selectable set of data columns.. or something else for doing easier, or mby more straight forward, analysis.
I have some features in mind i'd love to see in it, but let me think some more about it. One that very quickly comes to mind, for me at least, is some kind to have the WUD automatically identify which COM port is open. The COM port of my RS232-USB converter changes every time and i hate looking through 3-4 COM ports or opening up the hardware manager to find the right one when in car.
Another one, maybe some kind of integrated way, or seperate tool, to export the csv to an excel sheet, with a user-selectable set of data columns.. or something else for doing easier, or mby more straight forward, analysis.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 10,532
Likes: 204
From: NYC / Jersey
Car: 1990 Trans Am GTA
Engine: Turbo 305 w/MS2
Transmission: 700R4
Re: Tuning with the EBL
In terms of suggestions, I would like to see Dynamic EFI create its' own database in the form of a forum linked as an option in between Purchase Information and Contact Us on the homepage. Have threads dedicated to the particulars, and emails sent automatically to Dynamic EFI members when an upgrade is available, or an improvement being made. Would also like to see an SFI-8 version released...
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
From: Akron, Ohio
Car: 87 Suburban 2500
Engine: 455 Wildcat ( somewhat modified ))
Transmission: TH400 ( for now )
Axle/Gears: 4.10 ( for now )
Re: Tuning with the EBL
And I'd disagree.
Much of the information in this thread also applies to other situations, and there is information in other threads that applies here as well.
ThirdGen.org is probably the single most comprehensive collection of knowledge from the best of the best that exists anywhere.
Spending a little time with some of the advanced search features isn't enough of a bother to warrant a whole new site, in my never humble opinion.
Besides, Rbob is a moderator here, and I'd expect he doesn't really need the added burden of trying to run a whole separate forum on top of everything else.
With continuing gratitude to them who have gone before.
Much of the information in this thread also applies to other situations, and there is information in other threads that applies here as well.
ThirdGen.org is probably the single most comprehensive collection of knowledge from the best of the best that exists anywhere.
Spending a little time with some of the advanced search features isn't enough of a bother to warrant a whole new site, in my never humble opinion.
Besides, Rbob is a moderator here, and I'd expect he doesn't really need the added burden of trying to run a whole separate forum on top of everything else.
With continuing gratitude to them who have gone before.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 10,532
Likes: 204
From: NYC / Jersey
Car: 1990 Trans Am GTA
Engine: Turbo 305 w/MS2
Transmission: 700R4
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Originally Posted by Cflick
And I'd disagree...
Re: Tuning with the EBL
... and I'd have to disagree with you. Bob already has a website up and running, and it would take a few minutes to put together an added forum to DynamicEFI, not to mention there are members here like Ronny and such who have been using EBL for quite a long time in which can moderate for him, so it isn't like he needs to be there 24/7. Why shouldn't those who use EBL/SFI-6 communicate on his own website, it's be much easier for the TB and SY/TY guys to communicate with lemme tell ya, as opposed for them to join a 3rd gen website to get their information, wouldn't you agree? How would you feel if you owned a Grand National and had to join an F-Body website because of the ECM your using? Not all DynamicEFI users run F-Body's. Just to add a few things, Thirdgen.Org is the "single most comprehensive collection of knowledge" because of Bob, period. Everything came from him, whether earlier members with reputations at stake want to admit that or not, it did.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 10,532
Likes: 204
From: NYC / Jersey
Car: 1990 Trans Am GTA
Engine: Turbo 305 w/MS2
Transmission: 700R4
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I'm certain RBob would include the late Bruce "Grumpy" Plecan in that group.
Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Car: '92 GMC C1500 RCSB
Engine: TBI + Vortec + EBL 383
Transmission: 4L60
Axle/Gears: 3.08
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Personally I think a forum would be awesome on Bob's site as well. It would allow dedicated sections for different parts of tuning as opposed to this single thread (which also has a ton of info), a dedicated spot for updates/downloads, etc.
I have a couple new questions. Lately I only occasionally drive the truck, since I bought a Fiero in January & gas mileage is much better (obviously), plus not working I don't have a lot of extra $ laying around. I drove it to class today and while I'm quite sure the drive wasn't downhill at all, I was shocked at the mileage readout.
I just checked the injector constant in the bin and it was off, do I simply apply the % difference (~9.9%) to find what the display should've read?
My other question is about the MPG calculation/vacuum reference. I'm assuming it takes the BPC table (used the BPC utility to calculate) into account when calculating mpg? Is there some formula for accurately calculating the curve for this? I know the difference is about 5psi, though I don't know how much vacuum the engine is actually pulling at idle... idle KPa readings are around 35, from what I've figured that seems to be about 11"Hg, does that sound right? I tuned the idle of my '78 Malibu with a 350 and a Comp XE268 cam (224/230 @ .050, 110º LSA) and the vacuum gauge I had connected was hovering around 15" when I was done... the car is in Michigan though, about 780' above sea level, the truck is here in Tucson, 2,400-2,600' depending on where I am (home is about 200' higher than downtown Tucson), would that account for the large difference? The cam in the truck is a good deal milder, plus the displacement is larger.
I have a couple new questions. Lately I only occasionally drive the truck, since I bought a Fiero in January & gas mileage is much better (obviously), plus not working I don't have a lot of extra $ laying around. I drove it to class today and while I'm quite sure the drive wasn't downhill at all, I was shocked at the mileage readout.
I just checked the injector constant in the bin and it was off, do I simply apply the % difference (~9.9%) to find what the display should've read?
My other question is about the MPG calculation/vacuum reference. I'm assuming it takes the BPC table (used the BPC utility to calculate) into account when calculating mpg? Is there some formula for accurately calculating the curve for this? I know the difference is about 5psi, though I don't know how much vacuum the engine is actually pulling at idle... idle KPa readings are around 35, from what I've figured that seems to be about 11"Hg, does that sound right? I tuned the idle of my '78 Malibu with a 350 and a Comp XE268 cam (224/230 @ .050, 110º LSA) and the vacuum gauge I had connected was hovering around 15" when I was done... the car is in Michigan though, about 780' above sea level, the truck is here in Tucson, 2,400-2,600' depending on where I am (home is about 200' higher than downtown Tucson), would that account for the large difference? The cam in the truck is a good deal milder, plus the displacement is larger.
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 600
Likes: 0
From: Akron, Ohio
Car: 87 Suburban 2500
Engine: 455 Wildcat ( somewhat modified ))
Transmission: TH400 ( for now )
Axle/Gears: 4.10 ( for now )
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Unless I'm badly misteaken, "instant" mileage is calculated by taking the MPH and injector flow averaged over the previous two seconds.
Anything that would throw off what the ECM thinks is the fuel flow vs. what it actually is, would certainly throw off the mileage, among other things.
It's but one reason "compensating errors" are not a good idea, and things like injector flow constants need to be right.
The ECM also takes what it "knows" is the exact amount of fuel delivered through the injectors and the total distance traveled to get the average MPG.
Vacuum, RPM, shift points, acceleration "pump shot" is all irrelevant.
The amount of fuel flow through the injectors per X injector open time vs the distance the VSS says the vehicle moved, is all that's needed, and so far as I know, all that's used.
For me, once I got the injector values right, I found the calculation accurate to within 1/10 MPG over 100 miles.
Probably more accurate than what I think I pumped vs what the mechanical odometer says.
Anything that would throw off what the ECM thinks is the fuel flow vs. what it actually is, would certainly throw off the mileage, among other things.
It's but one reason "compensating errors" are not a good idea, and things like injector flow constants need to be right.
The ECM also takes what it "knows" is the exact amount of fuel delivered through the injectors and the total distance traveled to get the average MPG.
Vacuum, RPM, shift points, acceleration "pump shot" is all irrelevant.
The amount of fuel flow through the injectors per X injector open time vs the distance the VSS says the vehicle moved, is all that's needed, and so far as I know, all that's used.
For me, once I got the injector values right, I found the calculation accurate to within 1/10 MPG over 100 miles.
Probably more accurate than what I think I pumped vs what the mechanical odometer says.
Last edited by Cflick; Oct 16, 2012 at 02:48 PM.
Supreme Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,997
Likes: 12
From: Bartlett, IL
Car: 92 ZR-1
Engine: LT-5
Transmission: ZF-6
Axle/Gears: SuperDana 44 4.10
Re: Tuning with the EBL
RBob,
From a marketing strategy POV, having a forum on the Dynamic EFI site would be a big push on your SEO. Business wise it makes sense.
From a marketing strategy POV, having a forum on the Dynamic EFI site would be a big push on your SEO. Business wise it makes sense.
Re: Tuning with the EBL
The amount of fuel flow through the injectors per X injector open time vs the distance the VSS says the vehicle moved, is all that's needed, and so far as I know, all that's used.
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iTrader: (1)
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 233
From: Chasing Electrons
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Version 2.1i and up of the WUD correctly handles a VRFPR for the fuel usage. It uses the BPC value to compensate the injector flow rate.
RBob.
RBob.
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
From: SD
Car: 90 Camaro
Engine: 305 TBI
Transmission: 5 speed
Axle/Gears: 3.42 POSI
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I agree with a individual forum. It would be much easier to find info.
I wanted some help with my tune as I am somewhat new. All I have done with the stock tune is change Mph Limit and Rpm limit. After that I have simply done many VE learns. Here is a Data log and the Bin, what are your thoughts on how its doing,whats should change.
Things to know are the temp is about 40 degrees cooler and lower humidity than the last learn.
I wanted some help with my tune as I am somewhat new. All I have done with the stock tune is change Mph Limit and Rpm limit. After that I have simply done many VE learns. Here is a Data log and the Bin, what are your thoughts on how its doing,whats should change.
Things to know are the temp is about 40 degrees cooler and lower humidity than the last learn.
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 233
From: Chasing Electrons
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
Shoot me an email at our update at dynamicefi.com account. Be sure to use an email account that can accept either a zip or jpg file. Gmail blocks emails with a zip attached to it. So we change the file name extension to jpg for those.
Be sure to state whether for the Classic or the Flash version.
Going on 7 years now.
RBob.
Be sure to state whether for the Classic or the Flash version.
Going on 7 years now.
RBob.
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 18,432
Likes: 233
From: Chasing Electrons
Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
Re: Tuning with the EBL
I agree with a individual forum. It would be much easier to find info.
I wanted some help with my tune as I am somewhat new. All I have done with the stock tune is change Mph Limit and Rpm limit. After that I have simply done many VE learns. Here is a Data log and the Bin, what are your thoughts on how its doing,whats should change.
Things to know are the temp is about 40 degrees cooler and lower humidity than the last learn.
I wanted some help with my tune as I am somewhat new. All I have done with the stock tune is change Mph Limit and Rpm limit. After that I have simply done many VE learns. Here is a Data log and the Bin, what are your thoughts on how its doing,whats should change.
Things to know are the temp is about 40 degrees cooler and lower humidity than the last learn.
INJ - ASync Transition PW - TBI Only
That will prevent async injection firing rate from occurring.
You are also out of injector, need to either increase the fuel pressure or put in larger ones. The injector DC% is as high as 116%, which means that they are open all of the time.
May need to raise the RPM based fuel cutoff, you hit it several times. Unless the engine shouldn't be rev'd that high. Can also make the SA reduction greater by lowering this value:
OVSPD - SA Reduction
And decreasing the RPM point that it comes on at. Currently the SA reduction occurs at the same RPM as the fuel cut. This way you will feel the power drop off and know to shift. Don't really want to be hitting the fuel cut on a regular basis.
RBob.